New stile of text composition [VN RenPy]

[Losersriot]

I'm a fan of visual novels and it bothers me that I have to constantly press the middle mouse button. To remove the text. Which blocks the lower (and main) part of the stage. This is a very bad game design. Extremely tedious and not ergonomic. I propose a new model of text composition - on the left. Now everyone has widescreen monitors, which I don't like, but the picture is never wide, there is no need for this. In addition, resources and time are spent on calculating the empty space in wide images. If someone can offer their own version , we will discuss it.

Below is a quick example with a character from SIMS 4 (I didn't want to run and prepare DAZ)

 

[MissFortune]

Am I missing something here? What's so hard about hiding text/dialogue in Ren'py? All you have to do is simply press H. The only time you'd realistically being doing that is for the sex scenes/animations anyways. I'd almost guarantee a VN made up of this would turn everyone away. It basically looks like one of those

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. I don't see a point in changing something that works, especially something as small as this.

The problem with your example above is that there's a lot more room for text, which can lead to info-dumping. And even then, that's a big assumption about monitors. The majority of people who have anything above a 16:9 monitor are professionals who use video/photo editing/etc and need as much space as they can get on a monitor. A lot of people still prefer a 16:9/1440p display, especially gamers as its a lot less hardcore to run than a 1440/4K 21:9/32:9 Ultrawides.

 

[Losersriot]

Am I missing something here? What's so hard about hiding text/dialogue in Ren'py? All you have to do is simply press H. The only time you'd realistically being doing that is for the sex scenes/animations anyways. I'd almost guarantee a VN made up of this would turn everyone away. It basically looks like one of those

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. I don't see a point in changing something that works, especially something as small as this.

The problem with your example above is that there's a lot more room for text, which can lead to info-dumping. And even then, that's a big assumption about monitors. The majority of people who have anything above a 16:9 monitor are professionals who use video/photo editing/etc and need as much space as they can get on a monitor. A lot of people still prefer a 16:9/1440p display, especially gamers as its a lot less hardcore to run than a 1440/4K 21:9/32:9 Ultrawides.

Use keyboard in primitive picture scroller? Nope. Planescape Torment gameplay use only mouse...
My example 16:9. Second place in left side to clean main screen to relaxing watch.

 

[MissFortune]

Use keyboard in primitive picture scroller? Nope. Planescape Torment gameplay use only mouse...
My example 16:9. Second place in left side to clean main screen to relaxing watch.

Those are two totally different styles of games, though. A VN made in Ren'py is more or less made up of choices. You literally either click or use the arrow keys+enter to select a choice. Planescape is an RPG, iirc. It's been forever since I played it, but it's clearly not a visual novel at the very least.

Which makes your point even more confusing as Planescape is both a built in a completely different engine and I don't believe it offers the same text layout you're presenting here. So, what exactly is your point?

 

[shark_inna_hat]

There's been more than a century of study in the field of optimal line length in typography, and so far the general consensus is: 'it depends'.

Every time you come to an end of a line, your eyes need to stop, move and refocus - and that's something you want to avoid. So, all text on one line, or as few lines as possible is the best option? No!
If a line is too long and you can't see it's beginning and end with a glance, it will be much more difficult for your eyes and brain to move to the next line (google saccade and optokinetic nystagmus if you want to go down that rabbithole...). You may skip a line, read the same line again or just loose time trying to puzzle out what line you should be reading. There is a sweet spot somewhere, a line length that is the easiest to read - for a majority of people - but it depends on the font, font size, line height, language, medium (screen) size and finally personal preference.

...and then there's gameplay. If you dump all your text in a few Walls of Text - your game will feel super short if a player decides to start skipping. On the other hand if you cut up the text into tiny bits - your game will feel slow and this also encourage players to skip content because after seeing a few 'Ok', 'Thanks', 'Oh, no!' and '...' text boxes some players will just hold down the space (or whatever the skip key is) until something interesting pops up on screen. You really don't want to design your games in a way that the best way to play your game is by not playing (skipping) the game.

TL;DR; Meh, probably not great?

 

[anne O'nymous]

I propose a new model of text composition - on the left.

Er...

How is this new ? Among the games using this format, there's Intern of Ecstacy Island. It's not the first one, nor the only one, but it's a more than four years old one ; therefore a good demonstration that this have absolutely nothing "new".
And how is this an improvement ? Instead of hiding what is generally a 6th of the image height, you are hiding what is a 4th of its width. And since the dialogs rarely goes further than two/three sentences, part of the said image will always be hidden without reason.

The problem, supposing that there's one, come from the authors who use full screen images, then put the dialog box in top of them, instead of defining the resolution of their image accordingly to the said dialog box. And that compose their images in such way that the important part of it fall under the dialog box. And that don't play with the dialog box transparency to not totally hide this part. And that don't hide the dialog box when it become unnecessary.

 

[Losersriot]

And since the dialogs rarely goes further than two/three sentences, part of the said image will always be hidden without reason.

The 4:3 render image is 35mm standard. The left panel does not hide anything. There is no image under it.

 

[MissFortune]

The 4:3 render image is 35mm standard. The left panel does not hide anything. There is no image under it.

You're still cutting off a good quarter of screen space that could better used for the renders themselves.

 

[Losersriot]

Those are two totally different styles of games, though. A VN made in Ren'py is more or less made up of choices. You literally either click or use the arrow keys+enter to select a choice. Planescape is an RPG, iirc. It's been forever since I played it, but it's clearly not a visual novel at the very least.

Which makes your point even more confusing as Planescape is both a built in a completely different engine and I don't believe it offers the same text layout you're presenting here. So, what exactly is your point?

A 1000 times more complex game that was released 20 years ago had simple control with only one mouse. I want the same thing now )

 

[Losersriot]

You're still cutting off a good quarter of screen space that could better used for the renders themselves.

Nope. This space does not exist at all, because everyone has a different aspect ratio of the monitor. This is an imaginary value.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Nope. This space does not exist at all, because everyone has a different aspect ratio of the monitor. This is an imaginary value.

This space exist, it's where the text is...

Either the viewer have a 16:9 screen, and he'll see the image at its intended size. But then he could have seen a wider image if the text wasn't there.
Or the viewer have a 4:3 (or 8:5, or in fact any other ratio) screen, and he'll see the image deformed in order for the 16:9 "image + text" couple to fit in the screen. But then he could have seen a bigger image if the text wasn't there.

As I said, the format you propose as "new", is used since more than four years. If really it was an improvement, you can be sure that it would have been wildly used now. But it's not...

 

[79flavors]

My compromise was this:



Whilst that black box around the dialogue at the bottom may look pretty black... it really isn't. Apart from the top 30 pixels or so, it's pretty transparent as it graduates downward. It blocks almost nothing of the background image and some careful rendering would means nothing of consequence it truly obscured.

I could have gone further and added a transparency slider to the UI to allow the player to make it even more transparent to suit their own tastes.

Without some sort of contrasting background, the text can become unreadable in certain circumstances. White text shown against a white tablecloth? a white bathtub? One common solution is to remove the background entirely and put a dark/light outline around each character of text, but that it going to be very much about the personal preferences of the individual developer.

Then there's the muscle memory of the developers. Artists have been rendering in 16:9 for literal decades now.

Sorry to hear you don't like widescreen monitors. And if you want to develop a game in 4:3... have at it. But in the same way that RenPy is popular because it's popular... 16:9 is the defacto image standard for AVN games because it's standard for the vast majority of AVN gamers. Yes it's circular logic... it's also reality for the majority of us.

What I will say is that RenPy especially would allow you develop a game in exactly the screen proportions you want. That screen layout you dislike is entirely customizable by the developer. The standard screen say(): could be changed to play just how you've depicted. Though given the amount of text and the general layout, it might be better to customize screen nvl(): and use

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.

To summarize: You're unlikely to change other developers minds on something as subjective as this, especially since it would ill received by a majority of players - but if you really want to develop your own game to look like that... RenPy (with a little work) is easily capable of doing it that way for you.

 

[MidnightArrow]

I have an unfinished VN using this exact format. It can work if you're using Renpy's NVL mode and you want to save time by making smaller renders of scenes won't change often. Of course not every project will benefit from creating a literal storybook format since you don't get that "Through the eyes of a self-insert" quality most VNs emphasize.

 

[Tompte]

If you want people to actually read your text without getting tired or distracted, you need to understand basic typography.

Open any book or magazine. You can choose anyone you like. It doesn't matter. They all work off the same basic principles. Look at how the text appears on the page. That is typography. It's not an arbitrary set of rules. It's how we read.

In your example the text doesn't get enough room to be read comfortably. In fact, it's pretty hard to read and that is why no one does it that way.

 

[anne O'nymous]

[...] That is typography. It's not an arbitrary set of rules. It's how we read.

It's not just how we read, but also of how we apprehend a document/screen/whatever even when we don't expect to find text on it ; the two being deeply linked.
We naturally start by the top, then move to the bottom. What, for a visual novel, mean that when we finished to look at the image, our eyes are already on the text we will have to read. Bonus point, since the first line is already at the limit of our field of view, our brain, hmm, "pre-proceeded" part of it, what make the reading more easy.
This opposed to a text put on the sides, or on top, of the screen, that force us to move again our eyes, and lead to a (really small) lag before we start to decipher the symbols we are seeing.

Anyway, after more than 50 years, video games still follow typographic rules, as well as the Web after a little more than 20 years of existence. This while those are two domains where people are ready to kill to differentiate themselves, and be the first that will come with the next revolution.
If putting the text in small column on the side of the screen was at least as efficient than putting it horizontally on the bottom of something, it would already be largely used. What isn't the case.


Note: This obviously apply to languages that are wrote horizontally. Those wrote vertically imply a different behavior and different typographic rules. But here we are talking about visual novel intended for international diffusion and so wrote in English.

 

[Jofur]

Disco Elysium did something similar, they based their entire text box on the vertical twitter feed since it's what a lot of people are used to these days.

Personally I hate reading text for long periods of time if it isn't centered. Especially since you often have to keep scanning your eyes to the center back and forth all the time to look at the visuals. I still have PTSD from my time playing games like Neverwinter Nights.

 

[KiaAzad]

It's all a matter of design, in many games, the lower part that is covered by the dialogue window isn't filled with anything important. However, in adult games the legs are often a part of the sex appeal for the character and the sprites must be positioned carefully.
I personally prefer moving the dialogue box to the top, even though it might be a bit harder to read. Side doesn't seem like a better option since text needs a bit of horizontal space for readability.

 

[Tompte]

There is room for some graphical design for sure, but typography doesn't really allow for much creativity. There's not just typography to worry about, there's also visual hierarchy to consider, which is the order in which you look/read things on a screen or page (

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). It's another one of those things people often get wrong because we're so used to seeing it everywhere, we stop noticing it.

I wouldn't stray too far from conventional wisdom when it comes to these things. You have to remember that no matter what creative designs you come up with, they unfortunately still need to survive the journey through the viewer's brain.

But by all means, experiment.