Newbie's questions thread

[Folkman]

Hello everyone!

I'm kinda totally new for game development and this awesome forum, so I've decided to say hi first. I'll introduce myself later due to keep this message as short as possible (since I have 0 messages, there's premoderation for me), but I have to apologize for my English first, it's not my native.

Straight to the point, I'd like to create this thread to have a place I can ask some stupid questions about development and share my experience with you guys. At the point, I'm planning to fulfill myself with a new hobby. Since I'm writer back home in Russia, have 5 years of experience in С# programming and hell over two decades of gaming, I think trying myself as adult games developer is not a bad idea.

So my first question is about... well... piracy.
I've played a bit with Unity, Ren'py and DAZ and now I'm starting to understand what kind of game I want to create for my first run. The problem is I'm not a designer myself so I'm gonna use borrowed assets. It's not a problem for non-commercial demos and nonpublic first tries but it will become problem at some point later. So the question is: Can someone use unofficially accessed (with maybe a bit of modifications) assets to create commercial projects or must he stick with free ones/buy them officially?

And again, sorry for my English.

 

[Droid Productions]

Core of question is "Can I use 'borrowed' assets for a commercial game"?

Short answer is no. But that hides some complexity

The first is the secrecy of obscurity; unless you're picking a company that's explicitly litigious (Nintendo springs to mind), or unless you get really big, it's unlikely they'll notice. Which does however lead to the problem that you're screwed if you do too well, which is always unpleasant.

Part of the question could be "what does commercial mean"; there are games (including one I'm working on,

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) that use assets from games like Honey Select Studio (from Illusion). Illusion has stated that, while they don't want people re-using their 3D assets realtime, they're okay with fan productions using them. So a non-commercial game with Illusion assets is okay; whether it's okay if you also put up a patreon page for it is another question, and whether you hiding the game behind a patreon paywall is still okay is a third. There are certainly other HSS games up on patreon now, and they're not being actively hunted by illusion (the Patreon Trust & Safety team, on the other hand...).

The third is to what extent can people spot that you're using pirated assets? Obviously in the Honey Select case it's ... pretty clear. But if it's less clear when you're talking pre-rendered DAZ scenes (which you may have paid for, or just grabbed from the HubShare). In that case there's no trivial way to prove that you don't have the rights to use it (and you could always claim you outsourced the work to a dude in Armenia.. go chase him).

So. A longer answer than you probably expected. As a rule of thumb Nintendo and Disney have zero sense of humor in terms of trademark or copyright infractions, and will come down on you with all the force they can muster. Others are more relaxed.

 

[Folkman]

That's a great answer, I've got everything I need and even more. Thanks a lot!

 

[anne O'nymous]

Well, @droid1984 answered most of the question, so my addition will be short :

You also must take in count that you're in Russia. Not that the country itself matter, but it mean that you aren't in the USA (where Daz is located) nor in Japan (where Illusion is located). So, taking action against you for using illegal assets mean that the legal owner of these assets will have to start an international lawsuit.
It will need a lot of time and will cost them a lot of money... all this for what exactly ? What can they expect to gain coming from you if they win ? Not to insult you, but your whole life time incoming will probably not cover their cost.
So, if they spot you, they'll try to cut you (closing your Patreon account, your website/blog, whatever), try to make you fear them, and perhaps try to negotiate to make you stop. But that's all. The possibility of an international lawsuit exist, but is really low and if they must start to move, there's way bigger fish than you.

 

[Droid Productions]

You'd get a Cease & Desist letter. If you ignore that you'll get some DMCA takedowns. If you keep ignoring that, you're one of the 0.0001% they may actually take an interest in screwing over as an object lesson out of. But as
@anne O'nymous said, you're in Russia, so there's limits to how easily it is to do. If you're making a lot of cash on Patreon they'd likely take you to court in SF (where Patreon is HQ'ed) and use that to freeze your Patreon funds. You don't have a lot of assets exposed to the US legal system, and the Russian legal system won't suddenly hand over all your cash to a foreign court.

But the normal procedure when someone fires a C&D at you is to roll over. It kinda sucks when it happens, but that's the price you pay for using assets that aren't yours.

 

[anne O'nymous]

You'd get a Cease & Desist letter. If you ignore that you'll get some DMCA takedowns.
[...] @anne O'nymous said, you're in Russia, so there's limits to how easily it is to do.

It's not only about "how easily".
A Cease & Desist notice will be valid only if redacted according to the Law you depend. Something stating that, "according to the US law number xxx you're in violation of this or that", have no validity outside of the US jurisdiction. Whatever if the Law are the same in both countries, it must refer to the articles of the Law you depend.
This simply because what you did can be an infraction/felony in the country of the right's owner, and perfectly legal in your own country. It's the case by example with medicine, there's some countries (like South Africa if my memory don't betray me) where the copyright don't apply to them. And, to go back on the subject, it can also be the case for parodies, which can be legal here, and illegal there.
The same apply for the DMCA take downs. Only US located sites will obey to them. They must use the local equivalent, if it exist. And in most countries the equivalent is an injunction of justice, so they must pass by a juridic take down procedure in the violator's country [er... not sure of my phrasing in this sentence, sorry].

So, the right answer when you receive a Cease & Desist notice is to answer by, "sorry, but this notice isn't valid since I'm not an US/Japan/whatever resident and don't depend of the US/Japan/whatever Law" ; well, unless you're an US/Japan/whatever resident, obviously. Do not tell them what's your country, it's their job to send a valid notice, not yours to help them to do so.
Then you wait for their next move. Like they can't target you as easily as they thought, they'll probably try to target the hosting service you use. So, try to find one in a country which isn't US/Japan/whatever located. And at this point they have no other issue than send a valid notice (so hire the services of a lawyer who know the Law in your country), or decide that you don't worth it ; after all they're at the first step of the procedure and already have additional costs.

But WARNING, as I said in my previous comment, they still can decide that you worth it, like they can even start an international lawsuit against you. Ask anyone targeted by Nintendo... It's not some additional costs which stop them.
So, know that you can avoid the problems, but still try to not have problems at all.

 

[Droid Productions]

Actually, it's not their problem that you're in Elbonia, and that Elbonian lawnmakers has decided that IP and Copyright are a evil bourgeois invention designed to stifle the masses. They'd still take you to court wherever it's easiest for them (usually California), get a judgement and then use that to freeze any assets they can get their hands on. If you're just making a game for Elbonians, sold only on Elbonian websites, and paid in corncobs, there's not really anything they can do. If you're however making the game in Elbonia, but selling it in the US through Patreon, paid through PayPal and hosting your website on AWS in Western US, then yes... they can and will destroy your business, all without ever setting foot in Elbonia.

 

[Folkman]

Wow! Thanks for the info, guys. I'm pleasantly surprised by quantity and quality of your responses.
I think it's important to know all that stuff for novice developers to choose wisely one's course of an action in case they're at low-water mark.
I decided to make things right. It's not only about laws and responsibility but building reputation as well.
It's gonna be a tough call for sure to start something without resources, but I think I'll manage. I'll buy some sales off assets here and there and will try to create something worthwile from a free ones. It definitely will limit my options but it's all about making things right and be proud of my work in a first place.

I'm about to have a lot of free time so if I'll keep the feeling I had last week, the one saying: "Dude, you're so happy just thinking about game development, go for it!"; hard work wont scare me.

I am writing technically documentation at the moment. It will take me some time to develop the game on paper first, but I already have made some important decisions. I'm gonna use Unity+DAZ, my game will have mechanics and characters will go with stats, the plot will be divided into chapters and will advance by main quest's chain. There will be side quests as well with a bunch of extra content.

Oh well... at least I hope it will
Anyway, thanks for your responces! I'll definitely come with more questions for you later)

 

[8873672413434]

Also, If it's DAZ assets you borrow. If they are rendered as 2D/3D Pictures/Renders. Then you aren't in breach of their EULA. Even if you didn't buy the Content.

IF, However the game you plan has DAZ3D Animations then you require the Licenses per Asset you use. (Which is usually double the price of the Asset). Which you can use for life (Doesn't need renewing).

As said previously, If you are small and just starting out, I doubt DAZ will really notice you to check if you are licensed, But, Once you get big, It may become an issue. But, By that stage you would probably be earning enough to outright buy the Asset Licenses.

You obviously know that with DAZ Assets, You can't sell/earn money without a license. So, If you plan on making money. Asset Licenses are required. But, Again if your small to start. No one will care.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Actually, it's not their problem that you're in Elbonia, and that[...]

I didn't say otherwise, I was just addressing the C&D and DMCA, and the limitations of their validity. A lot of US citizens thing they (especially the DMCA) are some atomic bomb and quickly send one or the other, using some web based model, each time they are pissed off ; once I even thought to start a collection.
They aren't and it must be said. Most of the people reading us have no knowledge regarding Law and international jurisdiction. So, for once, I played the angel and put the limits where they are.

[...] but selling it in the US through Patreon, paid through PayPal and hosting your website on AWS in Western US, then yes... they can and will destroy your business, all without ever setting foot in Elbonia.

Your business in the US, but only this. One time will come where the world will have some kind of international convention regarding rights over internet, but it's not today. You must know that using things illegally have consequence, but you shouldn't fear them like hell ; at least not without knowing both sides of the problems.
You'll never be free of problems, if they want to destroy you they'll achieve it. But there's way to legally limits the consequences, as long as you don't target a big fish and aren't yourself a big fish. Loosing your US based business is a problem and it's not a small problem, but it's not either a thing you should fear like being physically sent in court actually, or being arrested. Still these things can happen if you pissed off the wrong guys.

 

[King of Lust]

hello guys can anyone help how to add renderotica pose between the characters. whenever i try both characters gets mixed please some one guide me

 

[8873672413434]

hello guys can anyone help how to add renderotica pose between the characters. whenever i try both characters gets mixed please some one guide me

What pose are you using? What Characters are you using? More details.

 

[toolkitxx]

To add a completely different point to this discussion: If you plan to develop your own game you basically become what is known as an 'indie developer'. By circumventing the given regulations and possible trace of bigger copyright holders and trying to pick on the smaller guys and gals works you basically hurt the exact group of people you will have to rely heavily on.

That is like begging for your product to be misused, copied, pirated etc. I personally have no shame in grabbing a cracked thing that already based itself on 'shady' assets etc but i am morally much more inclined to pay for stuff that is well made and unique.

 

[Deleted member 167032]

I pay if something is on sale, Renderocity, DAZ and Rederotica but most of my downloads are free. Personally i don't like it, people worked hard to make these items, BUT if you cannot afford 12$ or 22$ for a dress which i think is overpriced then you can either not get it and that is it for your game or you pirate. My aim is to buy as i start to earn money for my VN i am developing. The game needs to pay for itself.
Will it happen, i have no idea but i'll try.

If i may pickup on what @Ph4ntome said earlier post about DAZ3d Animations and EULA.. if you make a series of stills and then make your own movie using jpg to avi converter surely that is not a DAZ3d animation just single images? Assuming you are using image series and not movie facility in DAZ?

 

[Deleted member 167032]

Correct. Have a look at all the torrent sites and Kodi... i doubt we are as big a problem as them.

You'll never be free of problems, if they want to destroy you they'll achieve it. But there's way to legally limits the consequences, as long as you don't target a big fish and aren't yourself a big fish. Loosing your US based business is a problem and it's not a small problem, but it's not either a thing you should fear like being physically sent in court actually, or being arrested. Still these things can happen if you pissed off the wrong guys.

 

[Deleted member 167032]

I think we all agree you're English is really good...

And again, sorry for my English.

 

[anne O'nymous]

That is like begging for your product to be misused, copied, pirated etc. I personally have no shame in grabbing a cracked thing that already based itself on 'shady' assets etc but i am morally much more inclined to pay for stuff that is well made and unique.

I think that there's also those who illegally acquire the assets, then use what they get with Patreon/other to buy them. Just because it wasn't a question of rebellion, but more a question of initial funds.

 

[wilson101011]

I'm also curious as to what MrKnobb asked about regarding creating you're own animation based off of stills created in DAZ. Not that I'm anywhere near the point where I need to worry about it, but information is always good.

 

[Deleted member 167032]

Yeah, as i see it if you create images (in a series or not) then this should fall under the same EULA as an individual image not so?

I'm also curious as to what MrKnobb asked about regarding creating you're own animation based off of stills created in DAZ. Not that I'm anywhere near the point where I need to worry about it, but information is always good.

 

[8873672413434]

Yeah, as i see it if you create images (in a series or not) then this should fall under the same EULA as an individual image not so?

If it's a bunch of 3D images, Made into a video via other software. That's fine. You aren't breaching their EULA.

If you don't have the License and you render it as a Animation via DAZ. Then you are.