NTR Boundary?

[desmosome]

OK lets really dive into it.

There are 3 main types that fall under the broader umbrella of NTR.
1) Classical NTR - girl gets stolen
2) Netorase - guy wants his girl to get sexual with other guys. Pretty much the willing cuckold tropes in the west.
3) Netori - guy steals girl

The classic NTR has 3 sub types according to VNDB, but that's not too important to get into.

How do you distinguish between NTR and netori? It largely comes down to the main POV character. If we see things from the cuck's POV, it will be NTR. If we see things from the bull's POV it will be netori. If we see things from the female POV, it can be any of the 3. Netorase will usually be from the cuck's POV but it can also be from the girl's.

So what does it mean to get "stolen?" Many people get lost here. Let's look at the most common targets for the classic NTR.
1) Wife/GF - not too complicated. She leaves the husband/bf or prefers the antagonist over the husband by the end.
2) Mother - A sexual relationship or attraction between the mother and cuck is not necessary, although it can help. She leaves the family or abandons her motherly duties by the end.
3) Sister - Younger sister used to look up to her "Oni-chan" that relationship is lost at the end. Older sister may be the protective type that used to protect him from bullies, but starts to join the bullies and looks down on her pathetic bro by the end.
4) Childhood friend - There is almost always an unrequested love or "will they? wont they?" type of thing at first, but it is not totally necessary. They can indeed be platonic friends who care deeply for each other. She starts to see the childhood friend as pathetic and doesn't care about him at the end.

In all these cases, there is something that is stolen. How do we go from the initial stage to the end point where the good relationship is lost? Corruption. NTR, at it's core, is all about corruption. The females generally need to be rather pure and good hearted at the beginning. They get corrupted as the plot progresses, usually due to the mind blowing sex from the antagonist. Indeed, if the mother was always a whore that would fuck around with random strangers and was a terrible parent to begin with, there is nothing much to be lost here. If the girlfriend was a total gyaru slut at the start and the MC was just one of her boy toys, things are not so clear cut. Of course, these kinds of set ups can still produce some feelings of NTR depending on how the author writes it, but the lines get a bit blurry.

This is why I said the intention of the author is pretty much the most important thing when it comes to NTR. It's rather hard to write an NTR story unintentionally. There may be some scenes or plot devices that could make someone feel like they've been NTRed, but that is mostly the fault of the reader. Some people are incredibly sensitive when it comes to their girls getting any contact with a different dude.

For example, lets say there is a story where you are in a happy romance with a girl. She gets raped by some dudes. The rest of the story revolves around the MC trying to heal her wounds and guide her through her trauma. She recovers and they live happily ever after. That's not NTR, but you better believe that many people would be talking about NTR in that thread. Actually, there was one game called Bad Teacher (rip), that had the opening scene of the MC walking in on his wife cheating with her female boss. He immediately leaves her and the reset of the game is him fucking all the females in the game. Yes, there was lot's of NTR talk. I think they even added the tag, but this is not a NTR story. It's important to note that NTR denotes the tone and progression of the plot, rather than any single sexual act.

Some other food for thought. Let's say we have a netorase or willing cuckold story. The husband asks the wife to indulge in his cuck fetish and she reluctantly (or not) agrees to please him. Now we come to the cross roads. If everyone is happy in this relationship, we just have the netorase story. However, netorase is not as popular as NTR. In the vast majority of cases, the female will start to get hooked on the other cock and end up leaving the husband in the end. Alternatively, she might not leave the husband, but the husband comes to realize that he is not so happy about it, but still gets aroused. A depression boner if you will. These kinds of stories can be seen as a hybrid netorase/NTR or something.

When taking everything I said into consideration, you can see how NTR is such a confusing mother fucker. There can always be outliers and edge cases that could throw things off when trying to classify it, like what you are doing with your examples hehe.

So what about if the Husband and Wife consent to an unusual sexual relationship, and she gets a Boyfriend. Is it NTR if the Boyfriend isn't allowed to fuck the Wife but the Husband is? IE does it matter if the Boyfriend is the cuck vs the Husband being the cuck?

This is indeed extremely unusual and I can't imagine it has ever been explored. Rule34 is a thing though, so I bet it exists somewhere in the corners of the internet. In this situation, if the POV of this story was from the wife or husband, it would certainly not be NTR. It is more like swinging. If the POV character in this was the new boyfriend, I would say that it is essentially a voyeur story. If the boyfriend fell madly in love with the girl, but felt so terrible because he couldn't fuck her and had to watch her have sex with the husband, well... that would be a slight blurring of lines where NTR is splashed into the voyeur story. It might involve similar emotions, but the wife cannot be "stolen" from the boyfriend here. What if the boyfriend is like some childhood friend of the girl and they very much care for each other? He finally confesses his love, and they come up with this scenario? Holy shit, things are getting complicated. This could turn into NTR in specific circumstances if the female starts to lose her respect or affection to this new boyfriend due to whatever is happening throughout the story.

Edit: Damn I realized I read this part wrong. I thought the boyfriend would not get sex from either wife or husband. If the husband can sex him... I don't fuckin know lol. That is so crazy. Hard to wrap my head around this situation.

More to the OP's questions, are there specific acts which define NTR? With refusing Yandere-Chan's NTR status, it seems to indicate that NTR requires some kind of act, intention, and some kind of involved relationship of which two or three people are knowledgeably aware?

I think this was basically answered by all the stuff above. I actually have no idea what Yandere Sim is really about, but from the little I've seen of it, it just seems like a sociopath simulator. It might have a touch of "reverse netori" (where the POV female protagonist steals the guy from other girls), but I don't know if it really explores this. Could it also have a bit of reverse NTR (where the female loses her significant other to another girl)? Maybe, I don't know enough about this game. Did the yandere chan and sempai have a healthy relationship before? As far as I can tell, it really isn't focused on any of these things. It's just a yandere story about a crazy yandere psycho lol.

Ok, that shit was so long and you are probably the only one who will read it, but since you put a lot of thought into most of your posts, I tried to reciprocate.

 

[DaClown]

"The Japanese netorare (寝取られ) translates to “to be taken off.” The term is often loosely translated as “cuckold” as well, which refers to the husband or boyfriend of an adulteress. These translations demonstrate the NTR genre’s emphasis on the feelings of the individual who was cheated on (not the feelings of the individual who cheated)."

So desmosome an essential characteristic of a NTR story is pov of view and emotional loss or deprivation; my japanese is mostly pigeon but it is constructed in such a way that it implies a masculine perspective. If in my example the Husband and Wife get a Boyfriend, but they neglect or exclude the Boyfriend and the story is told from the internalized perspective of the Boyfriend then we would have the essential elements for something that can be argued to be NTR. That the cuck is not the husband is actually inessential to whether the story is NTR. What matters is that the Boyfriend is given the relationship with the Wife and it is taken from him.

This is consistent I think with what I've read of NTR stories involving a triangle between the love interest, the wife, and the love interest's father. Or similar stories that I've read where the male love interest and the wife are split by the wife's sexual relationship with her father. Generally those stories are written from the perspective of the male love interest. Though I am pretty sure there are some clear examples where the primary perspective is the wife/girlfriend and she observes the emotional turmoil of the husband/boyfriend.

Okay, so this means that whether line 1, 2, 3, or 4 qualify as NTR depends largely on the perspective of a typically male character in the story that the player has some access to. If the male character feels they are being deprived of some kind of intimacy by another character groping, hugging, or touching their love interest's clothed body then that may very well be NTR?

 

[Catapo]

I think others already did a good job explaining how NTR works. To answer OP I can see all 4 scenarios as NTR or none of the 4, it depends on multiple factors: perspective, previously established relations, intent and effect.

Since you said the MC works in a company and wants all the females to himself but other males are in the way, I don't really see that as NTR unless there are some previous connections between MC and other females (childhood friends, lovers, sister, etc).

Just make whatever game you want to make.

 

[desmosome]

"The Japanese netorare (寝取られ) translates to “to be taken off.” The term is often loosely translated as “cuckold” as well, which refers to the husband or boyfriend of an adulteress. These translations demonstrate the NTR genre’s emphasis on the feelings of the individual who was cheated on (not the feelings of the individual who cheated)."

So desmosome an essential characteristic of a NTR story is pov of view and emotional loss or deprivation; my japanese is mostly pigeon but it is constructed in such a way that it implies a masculine perspective. If in my example the Husband and Wife get a Boyfriend, but they neglect or exclude the Boyfriend and the story is told from the internalized perspective of the Boyfriend then we would have the essential elements for something that can be argued to be NTR. That the cuck is not the husband is actually inessential to whether the story is NTR. What matters is that the Boyfriend is given the relationship with the Wife and it is taken from him.

This is consistent I think with what I've read of NTR stories involving a triangle between the love interest, the wife, and the love interest's father. Or similar stories that I've read where the male love interest and the wife are split by the wife's sexual relationship with her father. Generally those stories are written from the perspective of the male love interest. Though I am pretty sure there are some clear examples where the primary perspective is the wife/girlfriend and she observes the emotional turmoil of the husband/boyfriend.

The literal definition of the word is not very relevant. What is watersports as a fetish? Are we playing sports in the water?

We should look at how NTR fetish has been used. Without reiterating everything, the basics of almost all NTR story involves an established initial relationship, the corruption of the female by the antagonist, and the eventual loss of the initial relationship between the male protagonist and female. My super long post was trying to cover all the bases and possible spins that can be put into it, but the basics are pretty simple.

The POV is very important, but I forgot to mention that it's almost always a mix of all 3 POVs in varying degrees. The more male protagonist POV there is, the more "NTRish" it will feel. The more female POV there is, the more freedom the writer has to show sexy scenes. There can be little blurbs of antagonist POV (like showing him boasting to his delinquent friends), too much of this and it will feel more like netori. There are rare cuck only POV, but it is a very small minority.

So revisiting your example, it could have some NTR feel to it depending on how it's written, but what is missing is the initial relationship. It doesn't follow the classic set up for NTR, so the writer has to work it in throughout the story. The male protagonist might feel bad because he is left out, but he is the one who willingly joined this relationship. Also, there would be no clear corruption of the wife. I think because the boyfriend joined this relationship willingly, it would feel closer to netorase than NTR, although it doesn't quite fit there perfectly either. Now we can work in the corruption and modify the set up or progression to give the MC something to lose, but as I said, it is blurring the lines a lot. These types of vague and mostly consensual sexual exploration that defies the norms is more in the domain of western writers from my experience.

Okay, so this means that whether line 1, 2, 3, or 4 qualify as NTR depends largely on the perspective of a typically male character in the story that the player has some access to. If the male character feels they are being deprived of some kind of intimacy by another character groping, hugging, or touching their love interest's clothed body then that may very well be NTR?

About this part. It's not so much the POV that determines it, but the nature of the story. If the male feels as you say, but the wife is just one of those people that are overly comfortable with skinship, I wouldn't say this is NTR. Despite the evil intentions of the antagonists touching her (lower back/arms) and the husband's feelings about this situation, we can't really say this one thing is NTR. As I said, it's the plot progression, and not just a single act that will really determine the NTR. In this situation the husband should talk to the wife and work it out like a healthy couple. Now if the touching is the beginning of a corruption arc, of course that would be NTR. If the antagonist is touching her ass or boobs or something, well that's sexual harassment and groping lol. It can lead to a corruption arc, or the wife slapping the dude. If he wife is uncomfortable but can't respond to it, and the husband is a beta cucklord feeling bad about it, well... that seems like the beginning of a NTR story in the making to me, but we can't tell just from this one instance. For example, they could go home and hire a hitman to off the antagonist lol.

 

[RedPillBlues]

This simply isn't true. F95 is not a vote based tag system. Tags are added by devs or thread creators and then that's what the tags are. There are games that have obvious NTR that the dev just doesn't tag, thus the game doesn't have the tag.

Thats not quite how it works. While it is true that tags are not a majority based decision, devs can't "hide" NTR by just not tagging it. In most cases devs have zero say over the tags in their thread. In the cases that they do, which only happens if a staff member decides they are fit to handle control of a thread, the finale say is in the staff still. If you think there's a game that has obvious NTR by this sites rules, then please use the report tool on the OP and ask for the tag to be added.

In regards to this thread, if you want to go by the sites rules 3 and 4 will get you the tag obviously, and most people consider both to be as well. As for 1 and 2 it would depend on the emotion your trying to convey of said scene. Is it just a girl meeting her dad and giving him a hug? Obviously that's not NTR. Is it a love interest that starts to get groped by her ex in the next room to you? Then a lot of people would say yes. In this case its more of how you write said scene.

 

[Fliptoynk]

what's with the confusion? ntr is simply about the mc's gf/wife is cheating on him!
groping isn't ntr! that's harassment! ...unless she's fine with it?
hugging/touching - that depends! if she's just hugging a friend, not a secret bf, that's not ntr! you're free to get jealous though. touching? where?
3 - 4 ok that's ntr.

 

[tanstaafl]

what's with the confusion? ntr is simply about the mc's gf/wife is cheating on him!
groping isn't ntr! that's harassment! ...unless she's fine with it?
hugging/touching - that depends! if she's just hugging a friend, not a secret bf, that's not ntr! you're free to get jealous though. touching? where?
3 - 4 ok that's ntr.

No, cheating has its own tag. NTR is more complicated and the result is the destruction of a relationship or love or happiness. You'll find three primary categories of NTR that have already been discussed a few times here; netorare, netorase, and netori. One of the only requirements that remains the same between all three is that the relationship in question is destroyed in one way or another..

And, technically, you can have completely hands-off NTR if the result is the destruction of a relationship, but that's getting into more complexity than the F95 boards requires.

 

[Kratos_GhostofSparta]

I chose 3 & 4 as ntr however while playing a game if i have a option to let my girl get groped by some dude and i am watching it, that's kind of ntr.

 

[woody554]

OK lets really dive into it.

There are 3 main types that fall under the broader umbrella of NTR.
1) Classical NTR - girl gets stolen
2) Netorase - guy wants his girl to get sexual with other guys. Pretty much the willing cuckold tropes in the west.
3) Netori - guy steals girl

instead of stealing, isn't the point of ntr rather to smush it in your face, twisting the knife, and making you suffer?

what I'm getting at is that losing the girl doesn't make it ntr, a ALL relationships end with losing the girl. sharing the girl doesn't make it ntr either, that's just a threesome or group sex. instead the specific subset we call ntr is when YOU as MC gets excited for the suffering you're either forced or willing to experience (netorare vs netorase). while stealing someone else's girl is just stealing someone else's girl. (yes it might be ntr for the other guy, but unless the story is failing to hold a consistent POV his feeling are irrelevant in the scope of ntr).

 

[desmosome]

Just for fun, I'll try to make a weird scenario.

Dual protagonist POV that focuses on wife POV, but has some POV switches to the husband. Wife and husband are happily married. They are both really conservative and plain in bed. They have a kid and focus on raising him in a good environment. Eventually husband develops ED and they fall into a sexless marriage. They still love each other and care about each other, but the spark just isn't there. There is a bit of a strain in the relationship due to the monotony and lack of excitement. Some dude approaches the wife. She has an affair. He is good in bed. He is generally a good guy. The writing takes great care to make things very consensual and wholesome. No talking shit about the husband. No comparing prowess in bed. They are just a great fit in bed and the guy respect's her space and feelings for the husband. Path split.

1) She learns sexual techniques and ways of seduction that she uses on her husband. Fixes his ED. She talks to the other guy and break things off. He is cool about it. They made some good memories. He wishes her well. The marriage is better than ever.

2) She doesn't break things off with the other guy, but she is glowing these days and feels fulfilled. She pours all this positive energy into her marriage. She is more attentive, more loving, and all the strain is gone from the marriage. The husband had accepted his ED and sexless status, but finds meaning in life by raising a good kid and building a happy family with his loving wife.

In both paths, the husband never learns about her affair.

I kinda made this without much thought, so there are lots of unrealistic things here. Taken at face value, would these be NTR? According to this site's tag definitions it most definitely would be considered NTR. If you think about it though, all parties are happy. The affair actually saved the marriage.

 

[woody554]

for the OP, I largely agree with tanstaafl. do your story, whatever it is. if it's difficult to categorize perfectly into some weird americanized interpretation of a japanese term, it's not your problem but the categorizer's problem.

regarding your audience, people mostly want to know whether they're gonna be forced to watch some asshole fucking their girl or not. apart from the unavoidable internet ocd cases, nobody cares if its called netorare, netorase or something else. they're just not into the fetish, and that's fine. no need for the constant kink shaming either way.

conversely, if you DO want to cater to the ntr audience, as far as I understand they're not gonna be satisfied just 'losing the girl'. they want to feel the hurt, they want to wallow in the bittersweet feeling of loss and helplessness. they want to be humiliated and abused. having the tag is not gonna satisfy them. making the vanilla version of it (where they 'don't care' if the girl fucks another guy) is not gonna satisfy them.

it's just like with lesbian porn, lesbians don't generally watch it because it's made for straight men. the 'online lesbian porn' might check all the boxes in the straight dictionary definition of 'lesbian', but they're not feeling it because it's missing the whole point. it's basically the same with everything. a leather or latex fetishist is not interested in watching vanilla porn in latex. they might not even care if there's intercourse. they're in it for the latex not the pussy, they'll rather warch your grandpa wearing rubber boots than the hottest 20yo porn starlet having vanilla sex. checking the boxes isn't enough.

the question is, does a real ntr aficionado even care if there's sex?

so we come back to 'write your own story' whatever it is. if you think something is hot, it will be good and others will like it too. but if you write what you THINK others think is hot, you're probably missing the point and produce drivel. if you're not feeling it, others won't feel it either.

 

[Kratos_GhostofSparta]

Just for fun, I'll try to make a weird scenario.

Dual protagonist POV that focuses on wife POV, but has some POV switches to the husband. Wife and husband are happily married. They are both really conservative and plain in bed. They have a kid and focus on raising him in a good environment. Eventually husband develops ED and they fall into a sexless marriage. They still love each other and care about each other, but the spark just isn't there. There is a bit of a strain in the relationship due to the monotony and lack of excitement. Some dude approaches the wife. She has an affair. He is good in bed. He is generally a good guy. The writing takes great care to make things very consensual and wholesome. No talking shit about the husband. No comparing prowess in bed. They are just a great fit in bed and the guy respect's her space and feelings for the husband. Path split.

1) She learns sexual techniques and ways of seduction that she uses on her husband. Fixes his ED. She talks to the other guy and break things off. He is cool about it. They made some good memories. He wishes her well. The marriage is better than ever.

2) She doesn't break things off with the other guy, but she is glowing these days and feels fulfilled. She pours all this positive energy into her marriage. She is more attentive, more loving, and all the strain is gone from the marriage. The husband had accepted his ED and sexless status, but finds meaning in life by raising a good kid and building a happy family with his loving wife.

In both paths, the husband never learns about her affair.

I kinda made this without much thought, so there are lots of unrealistic things here. Taken at face value, would these be NTR? According to this site's tag definitions it most definitely would be considered NTR. If you think about it though, all parties are happy. The affair actually saved the marriage.

Wow the story is pretty good but i don't know man because of jealously things get's complicated. I know this Manhwa named Double trouble, it had similar concept, you might like it.

 

[desmosome]

instead of stealing, isn't the point of ntr rather to smush it in your face, twisting the knife, and making you suffer?

what I'm getting at is that losing the girl doesn't make it ntr, a ALL relationships end with losing the girl. sharing the girl doesn't make it ntr either, that's just a threesome or group sex. instead the specific subset we call ntr is when YOU as MC gets excited for the suffering you're either forced or willing to experience (netorare vs netorase). while stealing someone else's girl is just stealing someone else's girl. (yes it might be ntr for the other guy, but unless the story is failing to hold a consistent POV his feeling are irrelevant in the scope of ntr).

Humiliation and NTR goes hand in hand very frequently, especially at the NTR reveal during the ending or dialogues during sex (whether MC is present or not). It's just the side effect of the corruption and moral degeneration rather than the main qualifier though. The humiliation the reader feels is also not the main qualifier because that only works if you self insert.

And it's not so much about losing the girl, but getting the girl stolen. If some dude just loses his GF before any cheating happens cus he is a typical neckbeard loser, well...

 

[Nymphs]

conversely, if you DO want to cater to the ntr audience, as far as I understand they're not gonna be satisfied just 'losing the girl'. they want to feel the hurt, they want to wallow in the bittersweet feeling of loss and helplessness. they want to be humiliated and abused. having the tag is not gonna satisfy them. making the vanilla version of it (where they 'don't care' if the girl fucks another guy) is not gonna satisfy them.

That's your presumption. Some might think like you said but not all of them. Fantasy isn't reality. We couldn't say incest audience really enjoy fucking their families in reality.

 

[Catapo]

Just for fun, I'll try to make a weird scenario.

Dual protagonist POV that focuses on wife POV, but has some POV switches to the husband. Wife and husband are happily married. They are both really conservative and plain in bed. They have a kid and focus on raising him in a good environment. Eventually husband develops ED and they fall into a sexless marriage. They still love each other and care about each other, but the spark just isn't there. There is a bit of a strain in the relationship due to the monotony and lack of excitement. Some dude approaches the wife. She has an affair. He is good in bed. He is generally a good guy. The writing takes great care to make things very consensual and wholesome. No talking shit about the husband. No comparing prowess in bed. They are just a great fit in bed and the guy respect's her space and feelings for the husband. Path split.

1) She learns sexual techniques and ways of seduction that she uses on her husband. Fixes his ED. She talks to the other guy and break things off. He is cool about it. They made some good memories. He wishes her well. The marriage is better than ever.

2) She doesn't break things off with the other guy, but she is glowing these days and feels fulfilled. She pours all this positive energy into her marriage. She is more attentive, more loving, and all the strain is gone from the marriage. The husband had accepted his ED and sexless status, but finds meaning in life by raising a good kid and building a happy family with his loving wife.

In both paths, the husband never learns about her affair.

I kinda made this without much thought, so there are lots of unrealistic things here. Taken at face value, would these be NTR? According to this site's tag definitions it most definitely would be considered NTR. If you think about it though, all parties are happy. The affair actually saved the marriage.

This sounds like an awesome game idea but I for one would not consider this NTR at all, maybe for scenario 2 I could see it being a wholesome Netori at most if the game were from the other guy's POV.
If it were from the wife's POV it would be just cheating since she still cares for her family and since the husband never finds about it and his relationship never got ruined then even from his POV wouldn't be NTR.

 

[Catapo]

the question is, does a real ntr aficionado even care if there's sex?

Really good question. There could be a netorare game from the husband's perspective that focuses on the wife's lies and their marriage slowly getting colder or a netorase game that has the wife tell the husband what she did with the other guy without showing it and both games would be quite effective.

So the answer is not really but it takes a great writer to pull that off.

 

[Volcanoid]

Your next game won't have NTR? then not helping you.

 

[Fliptoynk]

No, cheating has its own tag. NTR is more complicated and the result is the destruction of a relationship or love or happiness. You'll find three primary categories of NTR that have already been discussed a few times here; netorare, netorase, and netori. One of the only requirements that remains the same between all three is that the relationship in question is destroyed in one way or another..

And, technically, you can have completely hands-off NTR if the result is the destruction of a relationship, but that's getting into more complexity than the F95 boards requires.

when the mc is cheating, it'll have cheating tag.
when the mc's been cheated on, that's ntr tag
mc's aroused to see his girl get boned by someone else, netorase.
when the mc boning someone else's woman, netori.
mc's wife got impregnated by someone else, and he's clueless the kid isn't his - cuckold.

 

[criestoomuch]

There's a concept called Death of the Author that states that your intention as an author and my interpretation as a reader are equally valid.

To me NTR is about one thing and one thing only. Does it make me feel jealous, anxious, and aroused? That's it. The closer it is to the true definition it is the more I like it when I'm looking for it. But, when I'm not prepared, not looking for it, or can't avoid it I hate getting even a whiff of it. Also, the previously established relationships don't matter to me if I have strong feelings about one of the characters involved.

Although, I kind of wish there was a jealousy tag for things that aren't true NTR but feel just the same. Or for when things are heading that way but don't check off all the boxes.