Recommending NTR, netorare, cuckold - resources, discussion, development

[Varimir]

Release! The first part was good

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[melantha]

It's objectively not the same. I don't disagree that getting good AI work does take some amount of work but trying to get the same quality with handdrawn pictures requires years maybe even decades of experience.

"This is the same as hand drawing process" is an insane statement.

i apologize, but let me clarify.
i only meant that both involves learning in the process
i didnt mean to extend the meaning to equal time or effort

 

[skyblueaster]

i already deleted this post once.
it was originally a reply to ZBYToshiro, but since many has the same point about AI, here's my two cents.

i'm not trying to convince everyone, nor change your opinion.
i just hope this opens up a new perspective

---

to add more rationale that could give you more ease of mind why developers use AI

it could just be time and effort required to hire artists?

you'll have to look for one, get into their queue, COMMUNICATE, make sure both parties consent to commercial use (important btw, i've seen traps intentional or not, that after the art is done, clients only realize it cant be used commercially because of artist tos somewhere), wait days for their drafts/sketch, communicate revisions, wait weeks for finished work.

all that when you can download install and start generating with stable diffusion in 1 hour, or use online tools right off the bat.

for long term: more communication, build rapport with artist, always trying to squeeze into the same artist's availability, and for extremely long projects, maybe even style consistency. you add a potential EXTERNAL bottleneck in your pipeline. you'll have to schedule releases and even your own tasks based on the artist's timing, something you have very little control over except for setting deadlines (or maybe through slots).

when using AI, the art pipeline, while now relegated to your own task list, can be done in your own time, work on it whenever you feel like it, and can freely move it in your own schedule. and considering AI takes less time, the fact its now your own time does not hurt as much, it may even be just be equal time required to coordinate with the aritst, which you have to do anyways.

we've recently discussed something in a discord server about learning to draw yourself versus just using AI. i've been through both, trying to draw by hand (even claimed to aim to hand-draw a game in the past), and now learning to create via AI.

there is no objective judgement you can tell someone to do this instead of that. some people have better creative parts of brain than logical/technical side. some people have the opposite, some have mix of both, and even throw in some genetic talent how good your eye and hand is. if you're a dev, i say make your own judgement for yourself what floats your boat, whats easier for you, which one is faster in the workflow you're comfortable in, which one fits your budget.

this is only scratching the surface from what i know about commissions btw.
in my case, i commission real creators for voice, and we're lucky enough there are sites like

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that streamlines this process.

i'm just giving more input on what affects the decision other than money, and laziness.

while i do agree, and observe, some devs are subject to money and laziness
i'm not saying no AI artist is greedy or lazy, nor do i justify them.
again, just open your perspectives on why SOME may opt to use AI instead of alternatives.

the question now is, okay, you generated the AI CG, why don't you put more effort into post-processing?
yes! legitimate question, and this part of the process will be more subject to the laziness question.
less effort on post-processing = more slop. i can't answer for every AI developer.
but maybe this is still subject to their skill issue. hire photoshoppers? same with artist dilemma.
git gud? they should! maybe some just aren't that artistic?

i'm just showing that there are many questions to ask, rather than dismiss them all as greed and laziness.

Regarding rights, that’s just pure laziness which could be fixed by… telling the artist what the art will be used for.
Sometimes, this omission is intentional—by saying nothing, the dev is hoping to score personal rates despite using the art for a commercial purpose. I see too many devs using Skeb for non-personal purposes, thinking it’s a profound source of cheap, quality art.
They get away with it too, but lack of enforcement doesn’t mean it’s morally right.
But this is a pirate site, so I don’t think users are too concerned here about whether the dev has a license to use the art.

Now, it’s true costs are a limiting factor for devs (and artists’ schedules to a smaller extent).
For reference, I spend 1-2k USD per scene on my VN. And it continues to creep up as I’m planning to add L2D and more features.
(On another note, itchio really screwed me over during this crucial time. I had to borrow money to make ends meet.)

How many devs can afford to spend that amount? How many would even be willing to, in the first place?
I was already spending thousands before I had a single follower.

So, it’s easy to see why many devs use AI.
It’s a big risk to sink several grand into a game when success isn’t guaranteed.
On the other hand, that’s true for every business, so my sympathy is limited to some extent.
Restaurants gotta pay for ingredients & rent, hairdressers gotta pay for training and tools. Many artists go to art college, and spend decades (and thousands of $$$) honing their craft.
No such thing as a free lunch: gotta spend money (and time) to make money. Customers aren’t money bags; they will pay for things they perceive as valuable.
What’s actually unfair is that adult game developers cannot easily get loans because of societal stigma. And, of course, the severely restricted ability to market the game. So they start off on a severe back foot.

Anyway, with the significant input costs saved from AI usage, my only question is:
Why is the product so slop?

You’d think, from all the art expenditure saved, they’d ensure the rest of the product would be great.
But no, even doujin RPG Maker’s are a tier above when it comes to script and putting things together. And some of these devs have to draw their own damn art.

Which goes to my second point: When one invests so little in the project, there is a tendency to treat it with disdain. Perhaps not intentionally, but subconciously.
And that immutable lack of care shows everywhere: whether it be the presentation, sound design, or writing.

You probably won’t treasure that $5 watch which came from a box of cereal you bought on a whim.
But you will damn well take care of that Rolex, as that represents years of hard work and saving towards your goals.

When one can easily generate another AI game if the previous one flops, it leads to an excessive amount of "fake it you can make it."
A constant stream of mediocre games by an uninspired dev, hoping to make it big from a few suckers.
This can happen to hand-drawn games too, albeit to a lesser extent. Time and money expenditure tend to make one more judicious with their work.

Anyway, devs need to know time is a very real thing—players can’t afford to be playing every AI game in the hopes it’ll be the non-slop one. So if a dev decides to make an AI game, they better ensure the non-AI features are damn good.

 

[Zeref@123#]

Release! The first part was good

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Well Iike Mejikura's 2D work more. The brothel game was so good but sad that it's made in unity and you have to use unity x for translation which is the worst thing ever. I am trying to translate the game using deepL unity x and proof read it. It may take a long time but I will succeed and share it here.
BTW this is the game I am talking about.

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[Astralfan]

You guys make me feel so lazy when i see how willing you are to type so much to express yourselves...wow

 

[melantha]

Regarding rights, that’s just pure laziness which could be fixed by… telling the artist what the art will be used for.
Sometimes, this omission is intentional—by saying nothing, the dev is hoping to score personal rates despite using the art for a commercial purpose. I see too many devs using Skeb for non-personal purposes, thinking it’s a profound source of cheap, quality art.
They get away with it too, but lack of enforcement doesn’t mean it’s morally right.
But this is a pirate site, so I don’t think users are too concerned here about whether the dev has a license to use the art.

Now, it’s true costs are a limiting factor for devs (and artists’ schedules to a smaller extent).
For reference, I spend 1-2k USD per scene on my VN. And it continues to creep up as I’m planning to add L2D and more features.
(On another note, itchio really screwed me over during this crucial time. I had to borrow money to make ends meet.)

How many devs can afford to spend that amount? How many would even be willing to, in the first place?
I was already spending thousands before I had a single follower.

So, it’s easy to see why many devs use AI.
It’s a big risk to sink several grand into a game when success isn’t guaranteed.
On the other hand, that’s true for every business, so my sympathy is limited to some extent.
Restaurants gotta pay for ingredients & rent, hairdressers gotta pay for training and tools. Many artists go to art college, and spend decades (and thousands of $$$) honing their craft.
No such thing as a free lunch: gotta spend money (and time) to make money. Customers aren’t money bags; they will pay for things they perceive as valuable.
What’s actually unfair is that adult game developers cannot easily get loans because of societal stigma. And, of course, the severely restricted ability to market the game. So they start off on a severe back foot.

Anyway, with the significant input costs saved from AI usage, my only question is:
Why is the product so slop?

You’d think, from all the art expenditure saved, they’d ensure the rest of the product would be great.
But no, even doujin RPG Maker’s are a tier above when it comes to script and putting things together. And some of these devs have to draw their own damn art.

Which goes to my second point: When one invests so little in the project, there is a tendency to treat it with disdain. Perhaps not intentionally, but subconciously.
And that immutable lack of care shows everywhere: whether it be the presentation, sound design, or writing.

You probably won’t treasure that $5 watch which came from a box of cereal you bought on a whim.
But you will damn well take care of that Rolex, as that represents years of hard work and saving towards your goals.

When one can easily generate another AI game if the previous one flops, it leads to an excessive amount of "fake it you can make it."
A constant stream of mediocre games by an uninspired dev, hoping to make it big from a few suckers.
This can happen to hand-drawn games too, albeit to a lesser extent. Time and money expenditure tend to make one more judicious with their work.

Anyway, devs need to know time is a very real thing—players can’t afford to be playing every AI game in the hopes it’ll be the non-slop one. So if a dev decides to make an AI game, they better ensure the non-AI features are damn good.

I agree 100% to everything here.

That's something that needed to be mentioned.

Hiring artists is a money investment.
Learning to draw is a time investment.
Many prospective devs don't have either, or not willing/dont care enough to give up either.

Using AI gives us immediate "acceptable" output without needing both.

This lowers the barrier to entry.
Devs who wouldn't even have dared to make their own game before, are now doing it.

It reduces the skill minimum cap.

edit:
but daym $1-2k per CG? my own membership doesnt even make a dent

 

[Aukenn]

Well Iike Mejikura's 2D work more. The brothel game was so good but sad that it's made in unity and you have to use unity x for translation which is the worst thing ever. I am trying to translate the game using deepL unity x and proof read it. It may take a long time but I will succeed and share it here.
BTW this is the game I am talking about.

You must be registered to see the links

For Unity, I recall Luna Translator working pretty well for me.

 

[skyblueaster]

It's objectively not the same. I don't disagree that getting good AI work does take some amount of work but trying to get the same quality with handdrawn pictures requires years maybe even decades of experience. High quality handdrawn CG or even animations is something so rare that projects containing those will get flooded in funds simply because people appreciate how rare it is to get that quality. With AI (at least atm) most stuff feels lifeless and bland and doesn't fit in with the rest of the game. I even felt this with NTR hunter, only reason it was somewhat enjoyable was because of the hidden mechanic. If the CG's were say drawn by Takeda himself it would be immediately obvious how much quality an established artist could bring.

It is probably easier to attract followers if you have quality hand-drawn art. Key note: quality hand-drawn art.
That’s extremely hard to come by since that type of quality usually starts from $800+ USD.
(Unless you decide to take advantage of artists in third-world countries, but that has its own set of issues.)

Mediocre, hobbyist artwork often gets ignored by decent-looking AI art.
That’s the sad truth if you look at what’s actually popular on F95.
You can make it work with a good script, but it’s still an uphill battle. Especially when it comes to getting initial clicks.

It’s also somewhat misleading to say quality, hand-drawn projects will be “flooded in funds.”
You need to consider input costs and labor. For example, an AI dev making $500/month would destroy me. He doesn’t need to pay for backgrounds, sprites, L2D artists, music, voice acting, etc.
You can generate all that stuff with AI. It definitely won’t look as good, but your insane margins will more than make up for it.
And that’s what business is all about. Having great margins. The point of using AI, for many people.

There are actually many ”hand-drawn” devs who could make a lot more money incorporating AI into their workflow. And the customers wouldn’t know any better if they did. But I think principles are more important to them. Well, that’s why you see me binging on instant noodles and fighting for scraps, anyway. I don’t want to earn a lot of money if it makes me feel like crap doing so.

That being said, it’s totally possible for AI devs to make good work, if not excellent work. I found NTR Phone quite intriguing (though I wish it was actually NTR and not cheating.)
What’s sad is that the dev of NTR phone was a good artist, but his P×treon exploded after he started incorporating AI. Now, you’ll find little of his original style in his art, which was admittedly slightly amateur (but more endearing IMO). And I think he prefers the success more than being ”unknown” (like most rational people), because he’s been complaining about the NTR Phone copycats following him making similar bank.

In the end, most customers don’t really care too much where the art is sourced from.
They just want something that looks decent and is fun.
If ethics was a major concern, no one would be buying stuff from ×ctivisio× or any big company, who use copious amounts of AI in addition to their usual predatory practices.

I agree 100% to everything here.

That's something that needed to be mentioned.

Hiring artists is a money investment.
Learning to draw is a time investment.
Many prospective devs don't have either, or not willing/dont care enough to give up either.

Using AI gives us immediate "acceptable" output without needing both.

This lowers the barrier to entry.
Devs who wouldn't even have dared to make their own game before, are now doing it.

It reduces the skill minimum cap.

edit:
but daym $1-2k per CG? my own membership doesnt even make a dent

Indeed. Indie devs can now make games they previously couldn’t because of funds, which is a likely good thing.
I was just listing the side effects from this, since many are familiar with the upsides already.

There are some people who argue the lowered barrier to entry isn’t a good thing since that increases the proportion of slop to sift through. And that makes it difficult for quality creators to be seen.

From that perspective, you could say it’s a worse experience for players and non-AI creators, since the AI works are like weeds taking over a previously well-maintained lawn. (The NTR VN scene was pretty slow, but most releases were generally of decent quality. Now, you have to be a bit more studious.)

But I think AI has done more good than harm—for the time being. As of now, the improved selection is somewhat worth the relative drop in production quality. I’ve enjoyed quite a bit of AI NTRge myself. I would love to play some more, but the recent ones have really sketch writing. Which is why you saw me theorize why that’s such a prevalent thing.

I’m more worried about the future, when this tech is adopted wholesale and we’re totally drowning in it.

 

[Torimiata]

Quick perspective as someone who's been an artist on other projects. AI is a enabler but not a replacement for artistic knowledge.

Which is why on many successful projects the developers have at least some related background, such as graphic design.

Personally, I wish I could dedicate more time to pushing consistency even higher, but it's about balancing what's possible.

There's definitely a recognisable "AI look" that's hard to escape without massive effort... similar to how many DAZ/3DCG games share a certain aesthetic.


I think people will mentally compartmentalise this style over time and accept AI games in their own category.

I ran a poll a while back: hand-drawn art is always preferred, but AI art beats poorly drawn art every time. Doesn't matter if it has "more soul" - people expect a certain level of visual polish nowadays.

IMO the real question isn't the art source, it's whether the overall experience delivers.

 

[anonsuit]

I ran a poll a while back: hand-drawn art is always preferred, but AI art beats poorly drawn art every time. Doesn't matter if it has "more soul" - people expect a certain level of visual polish nowadays.

IMO the real question isn't the art source, it's whether the overall experience delivers.

yeah because most people are souless.

 

[Knight6797]

It is probably easier to attract followers if you have quality hand-drawn art. Key note: quality hand-drawn art.
That’s extremely hard to come by since that type of quality usually starts from $800+ USD.
(Unless you decide to take advantage of artists in third-world countries, but that has its own set of issues.)

Mediocre, hobbyist artwork often gets ignored by decent-looking AI art.
That’s the sad truth if you look at what’s actually popular on F95.
You can make it work with a good script, but it’s still an uphill battle. Especially when it comes to getting initial clicks.

It’s also somewhat misleading to say quality, hand-drawn projects will be “flooded in funds.”
You need to consider input costs and labor. For example, an AI dev making $500/month would destroy me. He doesn’t need to pay for backgrounds, sprites, L2D artists, music, voice acting, etc.
You can generate all that stuff with AI. It definitely won’t look as good, but your insane margins will more than make up for it.
And that’s what business is all about. Having great margins. The point of using AI, for many people.

There are actually many ”hand-drawn” devs who could make a lot more money incorporating AI into their workflow. And the customers wouldn’t know any better if they did. But I think principles are more important to them. Well, that’s why you see me binging on instant noodles and fighting for scraps, anyway. I don’t want to earn a lot of money if it makes me feel like crap doing so.

That being said, it’s totally possible for AI devs to make good work, if not excellent work. I found NTR Phone quite intriguing (though I wish it was actually NTR and not cheating.)
What’s sad is that the dev of NTR phone was a good artist, but his P×treon exploded after he started incorporating AI. Now, you’ll find little of his original style in his art, which was admittedly slightly amateur (but more endearing IMO). And I think he prefers the success more than being ”unknown” (like most rational people), because he’s been complaining about the NTR Phone copycats following him making similar bank.

In the end, most customers don’t really care too much where the art is sourced from.
They just want something that looks decent and is fun.
If ethics was a major concern, no one would be buying stuff from ×ctivisio× or any big company, who use copious amounts of AI in addition to their usual predatory practices.

You are right in regards to art commissions, I was merely talking about creating art yourself individually without comissioning it. There are quite a few solo devs that create the art themselves and the experience this requires goes above anything that would be considered "difficult" using AI. When I was talking about flooded funds I was mostly talking about projects with REALLY good art (say Cursed Forest Quest) that's garnered alot of attention although being a kinetic novel purely because of the quality of the art and storywriting. If the art was mediocre or AI generated, alot less people would've cared (which of course can definitely change as AI gets more advanced, just talking about current state). Production costs are definitely an issue that's not going to vanish just because you get funded but if you take away some of the biggest costs (which is creative work) because you can essentially do it yourself you are probably an individual that has either done alot of professional work or is extremely talented in that regard, no matter what my point stands that people like that at least deserve to get funded more than people using AI because of the behemoth of work they are going through.

 

[Reven23]

Does anyone remember that game with the blonde elf who has to repay the UB so that his husband's mansion won't be sold? It was supposed to release last year but it kept being delayed.

 

[eaudecologne]

Mediocre, hobbyist artwork often gets ignored by decent-looking AI art.
That’s the sad truth if you look at what’s actually popular on F95.

I haven't really done in depth research on this and I don't know where the line between hobbyist and pro art is and also at how many views something is considered popular so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't feel this is true? I see plenty of games that i would say are done by hobbyist artists(and I don't mean anything bad by this) that are upwards of million views on this site(that's my definition for popularity I came up with right now I guess).
The thing with ai games is that they have much shorter update cycles so they're flooding the front page constantly so if you judge by that it may look like we're being taken over by ai. Just my two cents

 

[KasuganoSakura]

Release! The first part was good

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Finally, can't wait to play it

 

[Captain Oblivious]

There are actually many ”hand-drawn” devs who could make a lot more money incorporating AI into their workflow. And the customers wouldn’t know any better if they did. But I think principles are more important to them. Well, that’s why you see me binging on instant noodles and fighting for scraps, anyway. I don’t want to earn a lot of money if it makes me feel like crap doing so.

Couldn't that be a solution though? Hire an artist who can both hand-draw and use AI to train on their own artworks. Say they create 5 main images of the fmc, for example, and then use AI to recreate her in 15 other outfits or poses. Then you don't have the ethical issue of stealing art since its used from their own artworks, and the labour should be significantly cheaper than having everything hand-drawn.

 

[skyblueaster]

Couldn't that be a solution though? Hire an artist who can both hand-draw and use AI to train on their own artworks. Say they create 5 main images of the fmc, for example, and then use AI to recreate her in 15 other outfits or poses. Then you don't have the ethical issue of stealing art since its used from their own artworks, and the labour should be significantly cheaper than having everything hand-drawn.

It’s actually the tech itself that’s problematic. The training data and weights were derived from harvesting the works of millions of artists.
Even if you train the model on your own art, it doesn’t negate the fact that the technology itself was made possible by unethical methods. (Then again, plenty of common things have unethical origins. So it’s up to the individual person to decide whether this is moral usage.)

But I think there be would be less outcry if an artist trained on their own works, compared to training on someone else’s. Even in that scenario, honesty and full disclosure are still the most important traits.

The main issue isn’t AI usage necessarily, but that a lot of “AI artists” hide or even outright lie about the origins of their work. And that (rightfully) gets some people pissed off. Pirates are one thing, but no one likes liars.

For example, people would actually be less pissed if they were told the art in NTR Hunter was AI. But since the developer won’t divulge the artist nor post a portfolio, I don’t think this mystery will ever be solved.

 

[dawg929292]

Release! The first part was good

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raw version:

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[Varimir]

raw version:

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Thanks bro

 

[papywavy]

ts might actually be the best representation of disappointment. and it started well as a mystery ntr
this dev deadass made a hot fmc just to barely use her.
the main story is 25% of the game, the other 75% are legit just irrevelant bonuses in the recollection room.
even the upcoming update is just a bonus. in fact, its a short ntr story about new characters. i actually believed the dude was making a new game.
worst part is, the dude straight up said that the next update will be the last for a while because they think the game has enough content for now. im not even mad, im just disappointed by the waste. and the game has been around since 2023

 

[Jsay2020]

ts might actually be the best representation of disappointment. and it started well as a mystery ntr
this dev deadass made a hot fmc just to barely use her.
the main story is 25% of the game, the other 75% are legit just irrevelant bonuses in the recollection room.
even the upcoming update is just a bonus. in fact, its a short ntr story about new characters. i actually believed the dude was making a new game.
worst part is, the dude straight up said that the next update will be the last for a while because they think the game has enough content for now. im not even mad, im just disappointed by the waste. and the game has been around since 2023

View attachment 5185012

brother that game died the second he choose that art style.