Recommending NTR, netorare, cuckold - resources, discussion, development

[critic specialized in NTR]

As time goes by, I've come to the realisation that NTR community is quite divisive, as everything else, really. As you can see, every time the Nebel topic comes up, there are people who hate it and then there are people like me who like it. Personally, I don't think it's difficult skill-wise but it was very underexplained. Those who like it can chalk it up as a way for player to experience the frustration of the protagonist, having to figure out hidden game mechanics in multiple attempts to get the true end (or at least I think so, with my very biased view). The other side just calls it poor game design, not worth their time.

But then, once players know what to do, avoiding NTR became super easy, and you have to deliberately play bad for it to happen. Thankfully, the dungeons get harder if you clear it quickly, so at least Kana can still be molested accidentally. However, the dungeon scenes, or CCTV scenes are random, you might not get what you aimed for so it might not be fun for some people. The night scenes are also random (I don't know why the dev decided to remove the orb to select what event would happen in ver 1.2) and remain easy to avoid.

For the priestess game, with how the night scenes are still random and the difficulty is way lower than Nebel in the demo, I don't think it's as much of an upgrade as BBQ thinks it is.

Apparently, Nebel is a game you either love or hate. Many of you have played it, and in my experience, I felt like I wasted hours of my life playing Nebel. I played and got nowhere, and when there were cutscenes, they were very random. It's a game that tried to be too big, but ended up all messy and difficult to play, a frustrating NTR experience. Even if you risk the game's difficulty, it doesn't reward you with a good NTR story or good cutscenes. In my honest opinion, Nebel fails in almost everything.

 

[ZBYToshiro]

Yeah it doesnt NEED it, but any game that has it is better for it imo. There are games carried solely by their mechanics/art etc. that end up making up for the story. But if it also had that story, it would be a masterpiece.

It's obvious that to create a 10/10, or even a 9/10 game, a “highly-rated story” is a must-have. However, first, I can also argue against this point, that “gameplay” holds equivalent value. Second, I'm not currently talking about creating a “masterpiece”, but just a “good”, or at most, a “great” NTR game, and I'm trying to speak objectively here, because subjectively, Nebel is already a masterpiece in my heart.

At the same time, all of the games that I found good despite lacking story... I just dont really remember. They were throwaway games that I played in an afternoon and mostly forgotten about. Almost no emotional impact, because without good writing, you dont connect with the story, the characters... almost any of it. Still fun fast food and perhaps a good fap, but not much else.

Regarding this, I will neither agree nor disagree with your opinion. Simply because it's leaning more towards a subjective perspective. Just like how you don't like Nebel as much as NTRPG2, while it's the opposite for me.

Nebel certainly doesn't have a “highly-rated story”, but hey, I never said it didn't have a good story. Similar to RinaTest, in terms of overall story, it's only at a 6/10, but it did its job well: perfectly complementing the “gameplay”, rationalizing decisions, creating conditions to showcase the game mechanics, and giving those mechanics the necessary weight, thereby elevating itself significantly. Because as you said: “Even just a small interaction between characters and how that develops is a story”, and I'm pretty sure that the process of observing the heroine in Nebel also counts.

That's exactly what I meant when I said, “A good NTR game doesn”t necessarily need a highly-rated story”. It doesn't need a highly-rated story; just a good story is enough.

In the debate on this topic, I once said, “In my opinion, a good NTR game is one that expresses the NTR element in the best possible way”. Therefore, even though I've been arguing (?) with you this whole time, my stance could just as easily be modified to: “A good NTR game doesn't necessarily need a highly-rated gameplay”. Every game has a different approach, and all those approaches are equally good if they are “expressed” in the best possible way. Nothing is perfect, so no single approach is the “best”.

So, in summary, the only thing I want you to take away from this is to observe things more objectively. I'm not saying all the games you find bad are actually good and just coincidentally not for you. But at least I hope that you will consider that possibility a bit more carefully.

 

[skyblueaster]

*snip*
If you can avoid [NTR], well then is it really an NTR game?
Honestly I've just lost interest in Fallen Priestess just due to lack of gravitas.

I think it all comes down to writing. Plenty of good NTR games have choices, as can be seen in the old school JP NTR VNs.
The key point is to write choices that are in-character and mostly believable from a storytelling perspective.
Avoid choices that are utterly ridiculous or blatantly coded as good/bad.

You can still have choices that hint at H-scenes, but the justifications for the H should be present. That will lead to the game being perceived less as netorase and more netorare.

Here is one such choice in my game. To make things interesting, I’ll use the example of a vanilla scene.

Spoiler: Not really a spoiler, only click if you want to know how I approach it.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[_Grotest_]

As time goes by, I've come to the realisation that NTR community is quite divisive, as everything else, really. As you can see, every time the Nebel topic comes up, there are people who hate it and then there are people like me who like it. Personally, I don't think it's difficult skill-wise but it was very underexplained. Those who like it can chalk it up as a way for player to experience the frustration of the protagonist, having to figure out hidden game mechanics in multiple attempts to get the true end (or at least I think so, with my very biased view). The other side just calls it poor game design, not worth their time.

But then, once players know what to do, avoiding NTR became super easy, and you have to deliberately play bad for it to happen. Thankfully, the dungeons get harder if you clear it quickly, so at least Kana can still be molested accidentally. However, the dungeon scenes, or CCTV scenes are random, you might not get what you aimed for so it might not be fun for some people. The night scenes are also random (I don't know why the dev decided to remove the orb to select what event would happen in ver 1.2) and remain easy to avoid.

Your post accurately pinpointed my opinion of Nebel. I love this game but it definitely lacked a lot of explanatiion or direction. Trying to figure out how to progress plot and get to true ending is really frustrating. Gameplay wise I loved it except grind and seal combat(I ended up just using MCs AOE attack that uses up all mana through all game). It's fairly difficult and pretty good for NTR feeling imo but once you fully know how every mechanic works it gets much easier. This game really scratched my itch for difficult avoidable NTR gameplay.

 

[Kulman]

It's obvious that to create a 10/10, or even a 9/10 game, a “highly-rated story” is a must-have. However, first, I can also argue against this point, that “gameplay” holds equivalent value. Second, I'm not currently talking about creating a “masterpiece”, but just a “good”, or at most, a “great” NTR game, and I'm trying to speak objectively here, because subjectively, Nebel is already a masterpiece in my heart.


Regarding this, I will neither agree nor disagree with your opinion. Simply because it's leaning more towards a subjective perspective. Just like how you don't like Nebel as much as NTRPG2, while it's the opposite for me.

Nebel certainly doesn't have a “highly-rated story”, but hey, I never said it didn't have a good story. Similar to RinaTest, in terms of overall story, it's only at a 6/10, but it did its job well: perfectly complementing the “gameplay”, rationalizing decisions, creating conditions to showcase the game mechanics, and giving those mechanics the necessary weight, thereby elevating itself significantly. Because as you said: “Even just a small interaction between characters and how that develops is a story”, and I'm pretty sure that the process of observing the heroine in Nebel also counts.

That's exactly what I meant when I said, “A good NTR game doesn”t necessarily need a highly-rated story”. It doesn't need a highly-rated story; just a good story is enough. Other than binary stuff like "does the game even run".

In the debate on this topic, I once said, “In my opinion, a good NTR game is one that expresses the NTR element in the best possible way”. Therefore, even though I've been arguing (?) with you this whole time, my stance could just as easily be modified to: “A good NTR game doesn't necessarily need a highly-rated gameplay”. Every game has a different approach, and all those approaches are equally good if they are “expressed” in the best possible way. Nothing is perfect, so no single approach is the “best”.

So, in summary, the only thing I want you to take away from this is to observe things more objectively. I'm not saying all the games you find bad are actually good and just coincidentally not for you. But at least I hope that you will consider that possibility a bit more carefully.

Its art, nobody can be really objective. Debating/demanding objectivity seems kinda pointless.

 

[hoochimama]

If you can avoid it, well then is it really an NTR game?

Does one false note mean music stops being music?

Of course it can still be NTR.

In practice, NTR players are always going to have to engage in some form of cognitive dissonance like that in order to enjoy fetishes like NTR or rape of the MC where something gets done to them/the protagonist against their will. Even when the NTR is unavoidable you're still engaging in that cognitive dissonance simply by knowingly choosing to play the unavoidable NTR game.

These ways to classify things aren't absolutes, they exist on a spectrum. Not all NTR is the same and a game can give you a lesser or greater NTR kick depending on several factors.

A game where the NTR is unavoidable is going to provide a greater NTR kick than one where it is easily avoided. A game that only needs you to enable NTR once, at the start of the game, for it to happen several hours later is going to provide a stronger NTR kick than one where you need to knowingly pick the NTR option right before the NTR scene happens. A game that NTRs an MC who did everything in his power to not get NTRed is going to provide a greater NTR kick than one where NTR only happens to an MC who acts like an ass and antagonizes or endangers his love interest. A game where you only control the character who gets NTRed is going to provide a greater NTR kick than one where you additionally control the LI and explicitly have to make her cheat on MC.

So how many bad notes does it take? When does music stop being music? When the music lovers leave and the only people left are those who enjoy noise (NTS fans).

 

[Lupiscanis]

Didn't want to detract from the general discussion but just wanted to comment on something :

As time goes by, I've come to the realisation that NTR community is quite divisive, as everything else, really.

I think the issue lies with Netorare being such a broad term. Not including the travesty that is the tagging system on this site sometimes (wru tag rework) Netorare is very unlike a simple tag such as 'vaginal sex' where you know what you're getting.

Netorare can range from a weak bullied MC getting their love interests taken from them while they acquiesce submissively and everyone humiliates them to a strong MC that is fighting the good fight against the hordes of evil, not noticing that their loving one(s) is/are being corrupted by a pair of succubi - and everything inbetween.

Yes the implicit betrayal and often humiliation are very much the core of the experience but it's an incredibly wide tag.

This doesn't even touch on the misuse of the tag or my personal favourite, BSS.

 

[ZBYToshiro]

Its art, nobody can be really objective. Debating/demanding objectivity seems kinda pointless.

Nah, it's true that we can't be completely objective, but most video games aren't so abstract that objective evaluation is meaningless. Otherwise, there would be no point in arguing, because all the reasons would be one-sided and unreliable.

 

[Kulman]

Nah, it's true that we can't be completely objective, but most video games aren't so abstract that objective evaluation is meaningless. Otherwise, there would be no point in arguing, because all the reasons would be one-sided and unreliable.

No there is a lot of point in arguing. But stating that a stance is not objective in regards to evaluating a piece of art (and yeah, even porn games are "art"), is redundant. Opinions and arguing still matters, even if its subjective. You can only ever be completely objective with matters that are empirically quantifiable. It may not be deep, but even if its shallow, if you cant measure it, you cant be objective. Everyone has a bias.

There is still a lot of fun to be had in discussion between subjective outlooks. Not much to discuss otherwise. And yeah, overall 99% of stuff is unreliable. Welcome to the world.

 

[ZBYToshiro]

No there is a lot of point in arguing. But stating that a stance is not objective in regards to evaluating a piece of art (and yeah, even porn games are "art"), is redundant. Opinions and arguing still matters, even if its subjective. You can only ever be completely objective with matters that are empirically quantifiable. It may not be deep, but even if its shallow, if you cant measure it, you cant be objective. Everyone has a bias.

There is still a lot of fun to be had in discussion between subjective outlooks. Not much to discuss otherwise. And yeah, overall 99% of stuff is unreliable. Welcome to the world.

Like I said, it's true that we can't be completely objective, but arguing completely subjectively doesn’t really make much sense to me, at least not in this debate. That’s because I’m trying to prove that my opinion is right, so how can I prove that by just imposing my subjective point of view on someone else? By being objective here, I mean like how you can like or dislike the movie Inception, but no one in the movie can really say that it’s a bad movie. There are many elements in that movie that can be judged objectively, including the subjective part of it.

 

[Kulman]

Like I said, it's true that we can't be completely objective, but arguing completely subjectively doesn’t really make much sense to me, at least not in this debate. That’s because I’m trying to prove that my opinion is right, so how can I prove that by just imposing my subjective point of view on someone else? By being objective here, I mean like how you can like or dislike the movie Inception, but no one in the movie can really say that it’s a bad movie. There are many elements in that movie that can be judged objectively, including the subjective part of it.

Now you get it, you cant prove you are right. You just have to sell your subjective point of view. Thats what discussion is. We are all just talking out of our arse.

 

[ZBYToshiro]

Now you get it, you cant prove you are right. You just have to sell your subjective point of view. Thats what discussion is. We are all just talking out of our arse.

Nah, if I don't feel that your point is correct, I won't be convinced at all. As I said, a good game or movie is not just about how good it is subjectively, but also about the objective factors that make it subjectively good. If you can’t see how a game you don’t like might be a good game for someone else, and vice versa, your perspective will be narrowed, your empathy will be diminished, and you will never understand anyone.

 

[ObamnaObamna]

I already asked in another thread but it was suggested I asked here as well so I will.



Is there anything with ntr similar to the Cecille/Erin route in Hero Party Must Fall before he starts getting sissified? I know that game is netori but I'd love netorare with the same flavor of scenes.



If you've mever played it, there's a point where Cecille kind of 'grooms' Erin into accepting her cheating and flirting with another guy. She'd let someone else grab her ass and say that she's putting up with it for the "good of the party". She'd openly flirt with someone else and say that he should trust her more and that she'd never REALLY cheat. She'd tell him to put on a blindfold and do sexy shit right next to him, saying shit like "what does it sound like I'm doing?" and he's not supposed to answer "having sex" because it means he doesn't trust her. Eventually it got to the point where she'd fuck someone in front of him and say she used her magic to make an "illusion" to punish him because he didn't obey her probably.



I will take anything that sounds even REMOTELY similar. It doesn't even have to be a game. Game, doujin, hentai, webnovel, JAV, I don't care at this point. I've just never really seen that type of ntr in anything else but I absolutely loved it.

 

[boulbi78]

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A 100% NTR JAV playlist i made. With always some "hidden" content. I will probably update this playlist if i find more content which respect the 2 rules, NTR + Hidden sections. Enjoy

 

[Kulman]

Nah, if I don't feel that your point is correct, I won't be convinced at all. As I said, a good game or movie is not just about how good it is subjectively, but also about the objective factors that make it subjectively good. If you can’t see how a game you don’t like might be a good game for someone else, and vice versa, your perspective will be narrowed, your empathy will be diminished, and you will never understand anyone.

Huh? Why wouldnt I be able to see how someone else enjoys something? Of course they can. Its their subjective view, they can enjoy eating shit. What does that have to do with anything? And of course you wont agree with me if you dont feel like I am correct, thats why I said you need to sell your subjective point of view. Thats all any discussion is. Yeah there might exist objective factors, but you can never quantify them there and therefore they are hypothetical. Any attempt at finding them will end up with a subjective result. I feel like this is steering way too far from ntr so I will end it here...

 

[Sheltercat]

I think it all comes down to writing. Plenty of good NTR games have choices, as can be seen in the old school JP NTR VNs.
The key point is to write choices that are in-character and mostly believable from a storytelling perspective.
Avoid choices that are utterly ridiculous or blatantly coded as good/bad.

You can still have choices that hint at H-scenes, but the justifications for the H should be present. That will lead to the game being perceived less as netorase and more netorare.

Here is one such choice in my game. To make things interesting, I’ll use the example of a vanilla scene.

Spoiler: Not really a spoiler, only click if you want to know how I approach it.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

The choices are a great option to initiate routes and I also agree that these choices shouldn't be evident to the player or just like a "yes" or "no" and then get a route. I remember one of the first VN, Katawa Shoujo, great game with lots of decisions that aren't that simple, like when they play Risk, or when there's a route breach when you're trying to get the president of the class to like you and then the pink haired girl start seducing us. We are talking about a very old VN, and even being so old it was amazing, because at that point many could have thought that accepting the pink-haired girl's advances could be hot, but then that just destroys your route with the president of the class girl. And that wasn't something that happened inmediately, it is something that was going to explode after that. With that you realize the game had hidden paths and it would punish you if you try to get more than what you can handle.

 

[Sheltercat]

For me nebel failed at establishing the heroine. I just couldnt see her as a person. Way too short of an interaction before stuff starts happening and her personality was bland.

The dev of Nebel at one point even points out that a NTR situation is absurd. It happens when you go watch a movie with Kana and later she comments that she can't believe the girl in the movie confided more in the villain of the story rather than the hero, something like that.
But that just points out that the dev was entirely aware that NTR games shouldn't be entirely based on reasonable choices.

 

[Sheltercat]

Your post accurately pinpointed my opinion of Nebel. I love this game but it definitely lacked a lot of explanatiion or direction. Trying to figure out how to progress plot and get to true ending is really frustrating. Gameplay wise I loved it except grind and seal combat(I ended up just using MCs AOE attack that uses up all mana through all game). It's fairly difficult and pretty good for NTR feeling imo but once you fully know how every mechanic works it gets much easier. This game really scratched my itch for difficult avoidable NTR gameplay.

Yes, I completely respect the reception others have given Nebel, because everyone plays differently or with different goals.
In my case, I loved it because I like to play with a chill plausible style, without forcing the game in a specific direction. In Nebel, I saw that the protagonist cares about Kana, so I played with that in mind. I was surprised by some of Kana's interactions; but, for me, her corruption was gradual and she doesn't fall easily unless the player wants her to.
Another thing that fascinated me about Nebel was the possibility of playing as if the days were real living normal days, doing whatever you want as long as you work or leave work early. This creates a feeling that the game is its own universe and, as the days are quite random, it feels like a real day, not a predefined and rigid one. It's true that some days are important to the plot, but in general, you can play Nebel and the days will always be quite random and will unfold according to your play style, without being truly forced.

 

[ktez]

I think that Nebel is the only NTR game where you see this amount of cope

 

[Sheltercat]

I have truly tried to look out for other games similar to Nebel, but it's so hard. For me it was a masterpiece. I have played City of Corpses, which is pretty good and even the dev says he was motivated by Nebel. But hardly other games can recreate that feeling of Nebel where you can play as you want and the days doesn't feel like scripted ones.