VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.6] [Eva Kiss]

[Doppelgang]

Also, the characters in ORS have more agency than in most other similar games, and at least more than the classical "corrupted" character. In its most basic sense, I'd say the trope consists of a development that goes something like this:

A (young) woman, prim and proper, is a virgin, considers sex to be disgusting (there's some slack to where the starting point is) -> accidentally sees a dick or someone having sex -> still finds it disgusting -> the same thing happens, is somewhat intrigued -> is coerced to touch said dick -> gives a handjob -> gives a blowjob -> vaginal sex -> anal sex -> is gangbanged by whoever is willing to fuck her, while screaming things like "fuck me, I need more cocks inside of me, I'm just a cheap whore". Yeah.

The bad girl route in GGGB relied on that structure as well, even if Ashley skipped some of the earlier steps of The Mindless Fuckdoll Ladder™. My impression is that character "corruption" in this sense implies that the character's primal, hidden desires together with the influence of other character(s) always ends up with a knockout win in the duel against against the character's rational self. (And the corrupted character is most likely unaware of that side of themselves at the start of story.) With Lena, and Holly for that matter, that external influence could never be as dominating because they're more fleshed out as characters already, and the classical corrupting influence is already an integrated part of them. Lena too can do things her rational self doesn't want her to do, but if she does, she's still following urges that she's also followed in the past.

I don't doubt that Lena too will have the chance to end up somewhere similar in ten chapters time, it just won't be as straightforward a path. More friction. More agency. Which is good in my opinion, but probably not if you're looking for a straightforward corruption story. It's similar to the everlasting NTR discussion: It's not like Lena unconditionally loves cheating on Ian, and Ian loves watching or fantasising about Lena sleeping with other guys—it's much more messy than that. If everybody agreed during these discussions, it would probably mean that all the porn tropes were played out without any friction or anything more added. Which, in my view, would've been boring.

 

[StultusAnglicus]

Due to chapter 10 reaction, he's a potential Ivy prospect

Dude, Wade has all the charisma and charm of a potato, and no money - Ivy wouldn't be interested.

As for Lena getting together with him? That'd be entirely up to player agency - but even then likely only if you've made Lena slutty and she has a one night stand or something with him.

 

[BloodyMares]

I think my only main point of disagreement with your logic is that you are associating all influence with just what's decided through the mechanical choices in a videogame, rather than what can be inferred from the relationship between the characters even without player input or direct observation by the protagonist. Saying that we can't pin more influence to characters like Ivy or Jack because the game doesn't mechanically keep track of what they do beyond that which the player can control through their choices doesn't really make sense because they are NPCs, their behavior is set on stone and the dev doesn't need to have variables to keep track of that.

What I mean is, as long as Holly's corruption to a promiscuous level that directly contradicts her established values is only possible in the route where she befriends Ivy, then you can't say Ivy had no influence just because it may be technically possible to gain all the required mechanical points without relying on her.

You got me on that, call it professional deformation. However, your main argument was that corruption was happening only through manipulation or coercion, so I was disproving that.

If Ivy was the only one contributing to Holly's corruption thanks to her manipulation, how would you explain that Ivy's same mean and coercive suggestions even with encouragement from Lena are rendered completely useless if Holly is dating Ian? Obviously it's not enough, Holly needs to be in the right mindset to be okay with those suggestions, and that mindset is affected by primarily Ian and Lena (even if they were NPCs).

It wasn't my intention to diminish Ivy's clearly significant role in Holly's corruption, only to showcase that Lena's role as a gentle guiding force is much more important (if Ian rejected her obviously) to Holly's corruption and she doesn't need to resort to manipulation or coercion, only encouragement but ultimately allowing Holly to make her own decisions. Ivy provides opportunities, sure, but whether Holly takes those opportunities and listens to Ivy's advice is mainly decided by Lena's direct or indirect influence because Holly always looks up to Lena as an example and she values her words over Ivy's. I hope that I managed to make myself clear at least on that.

To summarize my points:
1) Is Ivy the main instigator for Holly's corruption? Yes, no argument here.
2) Can Ivy corrupt Holly on her own however? No, if Lena doesn't encourage Holly or chooses to mind her business it doesn't work, Holly also requires Lena's reassurance
3) Is Ivy's opinion more important to Holly than Lena's? No, Holly does what Lena tells her to do for the most part, easily stopping any corruption that was in the process.

Regarding GGGB, my point would be that we barely see the interactions between Eva and Jack, we don't know exactly how Jack got into her head when he was "simply hitting on her". Yes Jack will say to you that he didn't do anything and only let Eva do what she wanted all along, but that's exactly the type of rationale a playboy that is extremely protective of his ego would have as his prerogative to avoid all responsability.

I'm just projecting his interaction with Ash to Eva because I doubt he'd treat them all that differently. With Ash he didn't really resort to any coercion or manipulation. He was obnoxiously flirtatious, asking for selfies, and sending unsolicited dick pics, sure, but it's a creepy asshole behavior, not really manipulation. He probably made Eva drink a lot just like he wanted to do with Ash, and then he kissed her. An asshole move, but after that interaction Eva was free to avoid him like a plague if she was really a "good naive girl that fell into his trap". No, the next morning she defends her behavior and basically says YOLO, having no regrets or second thoughts, and even gets mad at Ash if she doesn't enable that behavior. Jack probably said to Eva that it wasn't a big deal to cheat on her boyfriend, but it's straight-forward seduction move which wouldn't work on a girl who wasn't already thinking about cheating so I don't think he really corrupted Eva. If it was all him, at worst she could believe that she was having an affair with Jack, which would stroke her ego, but then she starts flirting with creepy thugs and even fucking them for no other reason than thrill. Who told her that it's okay to be promiscuous? Nobody did, she simply got hooked to the freedom that the cheating lifestyle offered her and she had no intention of stopping, becoming more eager and curious to try the shady stuff. If Jack started a spark, Eva herself kept blowing at the fire and going against her old moral principles.

 

[BloodyMares]

What we saw in Ep 10 is Ivy's usual behavior - flirting and teasing. But something serious Ivy/Wade? He's just out of her league and I have no idea what and how can help this guy. Unfortunately, he just goes with the flow in his comfort zone and is not going to change anything.

Wade is in Ivy's league simply for dating Cindy who is above Ivy's league (proven by Wildcats). And we all know Ivy is a sore loser, so she might use Wade to somehow fuck with Cindy's life.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

I guess you're being serious, but as he is now, I can't see Wade being a viable option for anyone in this game, certainly not Ivy. Maybe if Wade wins one of his gaming competitions and becomes rich...? Short of that, he's akin to Stan with a more outgoing personality.

What we saw in Ep 10 is Ivy's usual behavior - flirting and teasing. But something serious Ivy/Wade? He's just out of her league and I have no idea what and how can help this guy. Unfortunately, he just goes with the flow in his comfort zone and is not going to change anything.

It's a game but it's a story. People change in stories. They get into and out of ruts, ect. Surprising things happen in stories. That's all part of what makes a story interesting. Challenges and possibilities. This isn't something unbelievable a la "guess you're being serious". These are possibilities, not definites. But you've got to read the foreshadowing a bit and have at least a little imagination. Ever heard of a "cave moment" in story structure?

1. Clearly there's an Arc path for Wade improving himself rather than wasting away at home, even if it is pro-Esports. Was also once in shape and could be so again on a positive path. Would make him the second most attractive male character behind Axel, with the facial features Eva chose for him. He was after all attractive and "winner" enough previously to rope in Cindy and I'd assume Eva gave him those features for a reason.

2. Ivy was clearly into him spotting him at the bar in Chapter 10, at least on the paths I played, and as BloodyMares suggested, sex is also not out of the realm of her cat-and-mouse games.

3. Lena prospect more of a stretch but not out of the realm of possibilities, especially on a path where Ian is putting a dicking into Cindy while going out with Lena. Definite potential for a "Just Deserts" ending for the two of them, with the cheated-on showing up the cheaters.

4. Have you played GGGB? The majority of the characters had the opportunity to change their direction drastically from the beginning to the end of the story and most of them got fucked in both literally good and proverbially bad ways depending on your choices. Kind of par for the course. Basically, I don't see how this is odd.

 

[IDoAThing]

It's obvious, but when?

In the future

 

[Blurpee69]

In the future

 

[manscout]

You got me on that, call it professional deformation. However, your main argument was that corruption was happening only through manipulation or coercion, so I was disproving that.

If Ivy was the only one contributing to Holly's corruption thanks to her manipulation, how would you explain that Ivy's same mean and coercive suggestions even with encouragement from Lena are rendered completely useless if Holly is dating Ian? Obviously it's not enough, Holly needs to be in the right mindset to be okay with those suggestions, and that mindset is affected by primarily Ian and Lena (even if they were NPCs).

It wasn't my intention to diminish Ivy's clearly significant role in Holly's corruption, only to showcase that Lena's role as a gentle guiding force is much more important (if Ian rejected her obviously) to Holly's corruption and she doesn't need to resort to manipulation or coercion, only encouragement but ultimately allowing Holly to make her own decisions. Ivy provides opportunities, sure, but whether Holly takes those opportunities and listens to Ivy's advice is mainly decided by Lena's direct or indirect influence because Holly always looks up to Lena as an example and she values her words over Ivy's. I hope that I managed to make myself clear at least on that.

To summarize my points:
1) Is Ivy the main instigator for Holly's corruption? Yes, no argument here.
2) Can Ivy corrupt Holly on her own however? No, if Lena doesn't encourage Holly or chooses to mind her business it doesn't work, Holly also requires Lena's reassurance
3) Is Ivy's opinion more important to Holly than Lena's? No, Holly does what Lena tells her to do for the most part, easily stopping any corruption that was in the process.

I understand what you are saying, I agree that Ian and Lena are a fundamental part of any transformations Holly goes through because their soft influence is what gets her to come out of her shell in the first place. Even if she had somehow met Ivy without Lena, she wouldn't really listen to anything Ivy says because Holly's "shell" and Ivy's rather aggressive attitude would have inevitably driven a wedge between them.

But even if they are a fundamental prerequisite for Holly to go through any kind of change, I wouldn't call Ian and Lena's influence in getting Holly out of her shell to be a "corruptive" one if all they are doing is offering different perspectives and trying to support her with her self-esteem issues. They might leave her in a more influenceable state but I wouldn't call that "corruption" until they start pressuring her in the same way Ivy does. I do agree that in the scenarios where Lena leases her credibility to Ivy's plans that in some degree she is responsible for Holly's corruption, even if she wasn't the architect behind it.

I'm just projecting his interaction with Ash to Eva because I doubt he'd treat them all that differently. With Ash he didn't really resort to any coercion or manipulation. He was obnoxiously flirtatious, asking for selfies, and sending unsolicited dick pics, sure, but it's a creepy asshole behavior, not really manipulation. He probably made Eva drink a lot just like he wanted to do with Ash, and then he kissed her. An asshole move, but after that interaction Eva was free to avoid him like a plague if she was really a "good naive girl that fell into his trap". No, the next morning she defends her behavior and basically says YOLO, having no regrets or second thoughts, and even gets mad at Ash if she doesn't enable that behavior. Jack probably said to Eva that it wasn't a big deal to cheat on her boyfriend, but it's straight-forward seduction move which wouldn't work on a girl who wasn't already thinking about cheating so I don't think he really corrupted Eva. If it was all him, at worst she could believe that she was having an affair with Jack, which would stroke her ego, but then she starts flirting with creepy thugs and even fucking them for no other reason than thrill. Who told her that it's okay to be promiscuous? Nobody did, she simply got hooked to the freedom that the cheating lifestyle offered her and she had no intention of stopping, becoming more eager and curious to try the shady stuff. If Jack started a spark, Eva herself kept blowing at the fire and going against her old moral principles.

Jack gets a bit more shady if you play the scenario where Ash cheats on Eric with him early on but then regrets it and tries to stay away from Jack. He starts being more pushy with arguments like she's just lying to herself, that she felt more alive with Jack than she does with Eric, etc etc. I agree he isn't so bad if you play an Ash that keeps to her boundaries with him from the start or an Ash that gives herself fully with no regrets, but we really don't know how things played out with Eva to say he didn't do some manipulation, which he is very capable of doing.

Also it is really difficult to make a serious character analysis of Eva, like I said she's very malleable. With relatively few interactions from the player she can range from loyal girfriend to Dave, to Ash's lesbian waifu or hardcore submissive, to BBC addicted quasi-bimbo, to junkie cumdumpster of a bunch of gangsters, etc. I don't think you can say all of that was always in her from the start like Jack tries to argue, maybe she's just not a very cohesively written character, or at best her insecurities made her very influenceable by whoever happened to be in a position to manipulate her. Also to be clear none of this is meant to be an excuse for Eva's cheating and other terrible things she can do, being weak-willed may be a cause for a lack of moral integrity, but it is not an excuse.

 

[Blurpee69]

Also it is really difficult to make a serious character analysis of Eva, like I said she's very malleable. With relatively few interactions from the player she can range from loyal girfriend to Dave, to Ash's lesbian waifu or hardcore submissive, to BBC addicted quasi-bimbo, to junkie cumdumpster of a bunch of gangsters, etc. I don't think you can say all of that was always in her from the start like Jack tries to argue, maybe she's just not a very cohesively written character, or at best her insecurities made her very influenceable by whoever happened to be in a position to manipulate her. Also to be clear none of this is meant to be an excuse for Eva's cheating and other terrible things she can do, being weak-willed may be a cause for a lack of moral integrity, but it is not an excuse.

I think it's hard to make a character analysis of Eva because most of her storylines are the weakest of any of the major characters in GGGB. Like you said, it requires very little input from Ash to get Eva to a specific result other than the BBC bimbo, which requires a modicum of encouragement from Ash. Eva's fall pales in comparison to Jess or Jack's redemptions because it happens so fast whereas with the later two we see them realize that perhaps they are missing something in their lives and that their lifestyles aren't sustainable, eventually turning it around. Eva's downfall is snort some coke at a party, cum dumpster for a gang the next. No variable to get her and Jack to hookup, she never becomes friends with Jess even though their lifestyles and personalities are similar, etc.

 

[mommysboiii]

You got me on that, call it professional deformation. However, your main argument was that corruption was happening only through manipulation or coercion, so I was disproving that.

If Ivy was the only one contributing to Holly's corruption thanks to her manipulation, how would you explain that Ivy's same mean and coercive suggestions even with encouragement from Lena are rendered completely useless if Holly is dating Ian? Obviously it's not enough, Holly needs to be in the right mindset to be okay with those suggestions, and that mindset is affected by primarily Ian and Lena (even if they were NPCs).

It wasn't my intention to diminish Ivy's clearly significant role in Holly's corruption, only to showcase that Lena's role as a gentle guiding force is much more important (if Ian rejected her obviously) to Holly's corruption and she doesn't need to resort to manipulation or coercion, only encouragement but ultimately allowing Holly to make her own decisions. Ivy provides opportunities, sure, but whether Holly takes those opportunities and listens to Ivy's advice is mainly decided by Lena's direct or indirect influence because Holly always looks up to Lena as an example and she values her words over Ivy's. I hope that I managed to make myself clear at least on that.

I mean he is kinda right a little bit if holly want to be like ivy and is single I am not really sure if I would call that corruption if its her dream to be like ivy or lena.

The thing that I would call corruption is if holly is in her dream relationship with ian and than somehow slowly gets pushed by lena and ivy into a dircetion that she first feels very uncomfortable with but than slowly starts to enjoy it and becomes more and more daring and her lust get over her head and feelings thats what I would call corruption.

or if cindy more and more gets pushed to test her limits by axel/ivy even if she is in a relationship with ian or wade same with alison and so on....

I dont now if I would call a single women that wants to be like lena gets pushed a little bit corruption but we are only in chapter 10 so there are a lot of things that COULD happen in the future so i would be very careful to compare it to GGGB at the moment.I just hope eva dosent make a time skip because that would destroy all the fundation for the story lines that she layed out at the moment.

Wade is in Ivy's league simply for dating Cindy who is above Ivy's league (proven by Wildcats). And we all know Ivy is a sore loser, so she might use Wade to somehow fuck with Cindy's life.

I think ivy and cindy are in the same league and to be honest they both have the same personalitie

-normaly get everything they want with a finger snap
-both incredible hot like the lead cheerleader
-both have a big ego
-both seem to get bitchy if things dont go their way
-both all about winning
-both sore losers
and so on.......

they have very simmular personalities thats why I am very hyped about the drama between them and I am very courous
what mean thing ivy has in her box of tricks for cindy it will be the best drama and catfight ever I have very high hopes for the mud fight between them and I hope that hate relationship/competition will go on for long time and will be a option to push cindy down the corruption hole.

 

[cho'gall]

Can someone quickly let me know if the game completed, hard to tell without deep diving.

 

[Darth Helmet]

View attachment 2597131

Someone called?

 

[Blurpee69]

Can someone quickly let me know if the game completed, hard to tell without deep diving.

I wouldn't call one page back a deep dive, more like dipping a toe in the water. But no, this game is only about halfway done.

 

[cho'gall]

I wouldn't call one page back a deep dive, more like dipping a toe in the water. But no, this game is only about halfway done.

You mean the novel responses back and forth? Yeah I'm not reading that.

 

[Blurpee69]

You mean the novel responses back and forth? Yeah I'm not reading that.

You're right that's probably to far back. Could have just as easily scrolled up 5 posts and read that.

 

[cho'gall]

You're right that's probably to far back. Could have just as easily scrolled up 5 posts and read that.

wtf is your problem dude

 

[ArcherHades46]

As I understand it, all animations are ready, eliminates system errors and other trifles. It remains a drawing, Eva does not do it as we know. The finish line is close, gentlemen.

 

[DanMotta]

wtf is your problem dude

when a game is completed it says in the header of the thread. So no, it is not completed. You will know when it is completed because you will see in blue, the tag completed, beside the tags - VN/Renpy/Completed. It is so easy to know that you don't even need to deep dive, just look up the header of the game thread.

 

[IDoAThing]

As I understand it, all animations are ready, eliminates system errors and other trifles. It remains a drawing, Eva does not do it as we know. The finish line is close, gentlemen.

On a real note, I would expect at least a month and a half, it could be longer it could be shorter, more likely the former though. All just speculation though. The major scenes are almost done, it seems like at least half of the scenes are written and most of the artwork is completed.

 

[BloodyMares]

I understand what you are saying, I agree that Ian and Lena are a fundamental part of any transformations Holly goes through because their soft influence is what gets her to come out of her shell in the first place. Even if she had somehow met Ivy without Lena, she wouldn't really listen to anything Ivy says because Holly's "shell" and Ivy's rather aggressive attitude would have inevitably driven a wedge between them.

I'm glad that we can at least agree on this. With the rest, still no progress, but it's fine. Your criteria for corruption is based on actions and attitude (coercion / manipulation) from a necessary third party. And mommysboi's criteria for some reason seems to include NTR that he views as a necessary part... My criteria is simply the difference from where the character starts and where they end, regardless of the intent to corrupt, the attitude or the actions taken or even a third party involved because I view corruption as a path that leads towards the outcome significantly different from where the character started due to various circumstances. For example, having a shameful repressed kink and then growing into accepting it simply from watching porn in my eyes constitutes as self-induced corruption. Like Ash being influenced by incest porn to seduce her father.

I've read multiple stories that featured different styles / ways of corruption. One stood out to me (and is my favorite) - where the good, moral protagonist tries to be a good supportive friend or lover, and then they end up triggering a corruption path for other characters perhaps even unwillingly or reluctantly, having the best intentions in mind, ultimately corrupting themselves as well in the process because their awareness of normality changes to previously unthinkable status quo. I call it "mutual corruption" because both characters end up influencing each other.

For example, let's imagine this situation (my last attempt to prove that there's more to corruption):

Lena opens up to Ian about being blackmailed by Seymour crying to him that she doesn't know what else to do and that she wants to break away but doesn't know how and considering the poor and unstable situation with her jobs, she can only find comfort that it gives her the opportunity to keep sending money to her parents. In this scenario Seymour is not so much a corruptive force but said unexpected circumstance for Ian and Lena to deal with. And Ian, being the supportive and understanding boyfriend that he wants to be, not seeing the immediate way out and feeling pretty useless, tries to do the only thing he can - comfort Lena and take her worries away to the best of his ability. He tells her that the situation is horrible and he wishes he knew what to do, and they'll try to figure it out as a team but in the moment he wants her to feel safe around him and he lets her know that she doesn't have to fear judgment from him, that no matter what she was coerced into, it wouldn't be her fault even if the animal part of her was deep down enjoying the experience. And if it helped her feel better, she could share what occured on her encounters, which he'd obviously keep secret, firstly to help her follow the non-disclosure agreement while having support system at home, and secondly to salvage her new crazy sexual experience to arouse each other. Fast forward to Lena accepting her situation, with Ian's help learning to let go and enjoy her sessions with Seymour because of how turned on being in a submissive role made her, Ian even telling her to act more seductive around Seymour to feel at least somewhat in control while they're together. And Lena would in time actually be happy with her situation, using easy money to spoil Ian and sort her financial difficulties, helping her parents, even buying fancy equipment to pursue her singing passion. And if Emma-ex-machina found a way to actually get rid of Seymour, she'd feel reluctant to disrupt her newfound happiness, and Ian could tell her that if she wanted to stop, he'd be happy to help to finally rescue her out of her trap, but if she actually loved her new lifestyle and didn't want to let go, then he'd be supportive of that as well, considering how much fun it brought to their relationship.

So, in this hypothetical scenario, who gets to actually corrupt Lena? Is it Seymour with his coercion lucky enough that Ian unknowingly is playing into his hand? Or is it actually Ian, with his misguided attempt to help Lena feel better about her blackmail, causes the change in Lena's mindset? Would you agree that the change in mindset is the key factor for corruption to happen? If not, then I guess let's agree to disagree and stop it at that