VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.6] [Eva Kiss]

[dontcarewhateverno]

Looking back at the way the development time evolved in the past year and a half, we can see an ascending trend.

Chapter	Period
7	3 months
8	3 months
9	5 months
Remastered	5 months
10	5.5 months + (on going)

The period is not 100% accurate, but is not too far off. Probably the development time will never get back to that 3 months sweet spot. After chapter 10, if Eva manages to find more help and she reduces the scope of a chapter to something that is easier to handle, we might see an average development period of 6 months.

But hey, this is just speculation. There is a good chance that the estimations (from this comment and the previous one) prove to be completely wrong. Just look at what I said last year when someone asked: "When will we see the next update?"

The truth is - and she's probably embarrassed to admit this, so chalks it up to writer's block & other design issues - that Eva's just struggling with the length of Jeremy's dick. It has expanded a bit each chapter, hence the longer wait times.

"Is it too long now?" *erases, to shorten the length a bit* "Nah. Needs another centimeter or two" *adds just a bit more length* "How thick was it last scene? It needs to be a little bit thicker" *Bites tongue and erases a vein to expand the girth. Adds vein back in* "There! That's just about perf- .. wait. It needs another vein. Sigh."

Every half-inch adds a month to development time and it plans to be a 13 incher by the time chapter 20 rolls around, so you do the math.

 

[Oliver Wendell Homely]

i've played Noemi Toscana Rebirth and College Craze and Lust Campus that has female MC. Do you have any other recommendations of Female MC renpy games i haven't try? that's at least half as good as ORS?

Try "Good Girl Gone Bad," another game from EvaKiss, and I really like "A Wife and Mother." "Free Pass" is also OK.

 

[oldschool34500]

They chose to wait for a full release no one forced them and she didn't lie to them like other devs do !!!! Congratulations on being smart and not paying !!!!!

whether they are forced or not, people continue to pay for a product they don't have! when you go to the baker you give him the money for a baguette, you don't wait for him to do it for next week... that's what I was getting at, so don't talk about intelligence... anyway, everyone lives on credit, it's the global fashion.

 

[Vernalcash]

i disagree, i can write a whole game with the same quality in 1 month if i worked everyday for a few hours. you start with an outline for all the branches, then work in the events you want to happen, then the dialogue. but i like how people think the writing is so epic and no one can do what so and so dev does with the writing in a game. tbh, i think there are people out there who can do better. Eva is probably not motivated, as I can see motivation being the only roadblock here.

the other thing i see devs struggle with is re-hashing and editing the same 3 lines 1000 times. if you do that you should never be in any sort of creative field or in game development. go watch bob ross paint, he doesn't fuck around with the same cloud for 10 hours. he tells you about happy little mistakes, teaches you to edit and move on.

I expect to read your script in here on the 25th of october.

 

[GifMeMore1987]

i've played Noemi Toscana Rebirth and College Craze and Lust Campus that has female MC. Do you have any other recommendations of Female MC renpy games i haven't try? that's at least half as good as ORS?

Dog Days Of Summer is fun to play, Mother Lovers Society from the same developer is also good but very linear. Both games have mum-daughter incest (unavoidable in MLS). Descent is interesting (and completed), but can be quite a downer. The Chloe 18 games are popular, I played one and gave up since it was an extreme grind fest.

 

[anatarash]

I recently saw a poll on if and what specific kinks should be incorporated into another game, and foot play was second lowest on that list, only enema scored lower, even watersports, for instance scored considerably higher.
While that poll may be not representative, i think it gives a hunch about foot play isn't that popular and may be already overrepresentated. I personally feel like you get footsies in every other game (which ofc isn't true).

My view on this issue would be, that Devs add foot play to their games, because it is a rather inoffensive kink (again compared to i.e. watersports), which normally doesn't turn away players from a game. But nonetheless it may cater to a rather small community, and since every realized scene competed and won over a different sex scene which could have been done instead, i'd personally see rather fewer of them than more.

very interesting insight, thx. i must state that im not exclusively into foot play, i was just surprised to see (especially in GGGB wich is far more inspired and visually pleasent and unique in therms of drawing IMHO) such well depicted and detailed feet and never get them involved not even for a second in the sex action, while you can see other controversial fetish instead, like rimjobs, spitting etc. well anyway..as i said the art drawing in GGGB was on another level. this one looks like those flash games from early 2000. i didnt like it honestly

 

[selberdreher]

I actually never demanded anything. I am perfectly fine waiting like 4 months for a game update. When updates take 6m to 1 year I don't complain because I get shit for free and I'm not a patreon supporter — i just play another game.

My post was me just literally disagreeing that the devs are god send writers who need tons of time to write good dialogue or stories... AND maybe my confidence is because I am good at writing? In university I was basically a straight A+ student in all writing courses which required pages and pages of essays AND I am also creative. Some people won't have this amount of practice in writing and so it seems impressive what Eva does... and people just have different talents, like science or math etc.

I think the three big roadblocks to developing a game IF you are a good writer already are:
1) no motivation
2) bottleneck with the artists speed
3) being so much of a perfectionist that you rewrite the same scene 100 times.

If you're not a good writer then the writing WILL be the roadblock. To put it bluntly the outline for this game and all its branches should have been completed months ago (given that the game has been in dev for 2 years?). In the creative process you might add or delete some things, but *IF* (emphasis on the if) Eva is still planning a WHOLE outline as opposed to editing one then she's doing it wrong.

Now, this already sounds a bit different and more nuanced. So i'd like to point out a few aspects which are likely worth noting.

First of all, ORS is not a novel, it's a game, a Visual Novel with RPG elements and even mini-games.
So this puts already two different layers on the baseline writing. Coding and Artwork.

You admitted, that you see yourself as a competent and fast writer, and your grades show that you were above average in that.
I think it's not unlikely you could compose a text-based html game, perhaps with the help of a friendly coder (first hurdle), within your anticipated time frame.

IIRC EvaKiss is by profession a graphic designer, which already would put her at a disadvantage to anyone who studied creative writing and therefore got aquainted with methods of and tools in writing. (Dunno tbh if you took creative writing, but doesn't matter.)
As far as i know, EvaKiss does also the coding, which shouldn't be underestimated, since opposed to a professional coder/programmer it's very likely, she/he/they don't always choose the best, easiest and most effective way to implement the code. I've seen enough threads here in which experts on programming - or in a more general term: people affine to programming -, rip apart the code of self-taught Devs, because they say it's unreadable, redundant and bloated. I don't know how much of this applies to EvaKisses code, but it could be a factor as the game is becoming bigger.

I have seen suggestions about EvaKiss should become more of a project manager than a game developer, but again, this is probably not something they(she) want(s) to do, since they arouse from a creative field, and there isn't a guarantee that they would be good at it. Companies don't pay their project managers premium wages for nothing.

So basically EvaKiss has to cover three bases, and they(she) will always at a disadvantage to someone who has to cover just one.
Much like a triathlet will loose to a dedicated marathon runner, bike racer and competitive swimmer in their specialty.

Perhaps you need to take these points into account, when you are talking about ORS. And comparing the strength of oneself to someone else who works in a different field is a bit.... unfair?

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Oh, you can critize all you want, but you need to acknowledge that no one will take your critic as substantial, if you are backing a baseless claim, stating they are "facts".

You admit yourself in your latest post, that even with GGGB, which is your shining example, the Dev took a month to merely update the game, not to write the whole thing in a month. GGGB was developed from roughly Apr 2017 to Dec 2019, and there was obviously put already work into it before that, because Apr 2017 was when the first version went online.

This means GGGB took around 3 years to complete. Not a month. Facts.

And leaving aside, that those two games are hardly comparable in any aspect other than being created by the same Dev.
So this is comparing Apples and Oranges.

You are confused. The original comment never said the game you could write in a month would be the same length as either ORS or GGGB. The simply stated "a game" could be writen in that time and they are right.

You can apply the same logic for an update. The issue is and had always been that the dev is simply creatively struggling with what they want to write and it is clear in a number of "weekly" updates.

The Remaster alone shows there is an issue creatively.

 

[yawyeetah]

i've played Noemi Toscana Rebirth and College Craze and Lust Campus that has female MC. Do you have any other recommendations of Female MC renpy games i haven't try? that's at least half as good as ORS?

Kingdom of Deception

 

[selberdreher]

You are confused. The original comment never said the game you could write in a month would be the same length as either ORS or GGGB. The simply stated "a game" could be writen in that time and they are right.

I think the confusion lies on your side, lets look at the
Original Post from Sharpx23

i can write a whole game with the same quality in 1 month if i worked everyday for a few hours

(underlined and bolded the relevant parts by me)
which you liked, reposted and supported with your remark

Facts.

You can write an entire game in a single month if you simply know what you want to write about.

Granted you already watered down the OP by stating "an entire game in a single month" which is in and itself a bold statement. Even if i was able to write

You must be registered to see the links

in a single month, you know this wouldn't be a game we are talking about.
And you needed to paddle even further back by talking about monthly updates, when you realized this.

Honestly, i don't see the goal you and your fellow compatriots try to achieve. Do you really believe that you can speed up this process by scouring EvaKisses weekly reports for signs that they may or may not have fucked up again?
And trying to bolster your views by statements which are so unfounded and biased that they are borderline trolling? Presenting them as facts?

The only fact i see here is, that ch.10 is overdue compared to devs track record so far. Literally everything else is speculation.
There could be dozens of reasons for that: illness, motivation, milking, writers block, personal and relationship issues, covid, etc.
Perhaps you are surprised to hear, that no one is obligated to tell the real reason of underperformance to anyone, let alone the whole internet. If i am suffering from depression my employer has no right to know that, i can lie openly in their face.

So any reason EvaKiss gives for this games delay is as good as any other, the only important matter is if they are able to keep enough patreons to sustain their project. And as far as i know the patreons have spoken on that matter, when they voted for a full release.

This discussion goes on for weeks if not months already, sparked again every other day by the faction you apparently belong to, without ever bringing something new to the table. If you are comfortable steaming in your own juices, and raking in those likes from equal minded people, go on, i will not stop you.

Lets assume for a moment you are right in everything you said. Now what would be different? Nothing, the game will continue or not at an unpredictable pace, because the future is not predictable.
I don't know where you live, but you are probably aware of a certain pandemic which claimed the lives of millions worldwide, and in europe there is a certain war ongoing which can evolve into a nuclear showdown, like a certain president doesn't get tired of to threaten with.

With all these unpredictabilities i prefer to hope for the best, and look forward to wank in peace to ch.10 of ORS around christmas. I don't need to reprimand a Dev who provided us so far with two top notch games.

 

[TM | Twisted Games]

Yep, I just meant writing the text for the game (and not having a ready coded and playable game). You are correct that assuming I am as good a writer as I claim to be (or think I am), that I would probably have an advantage over someone else who was a great graphic designer when it comes to writing.

I am not sure what the coding aspect would involve, I never worked with REN'PY. I have slight coding experience making websites in html/css and with javascript making some simple discord bots. But coding has always been challenging for me. I also have graphic experience, but EVA would outright destroy me in terms of art done on a computer. I could draw very good art on paper, I can do very good pixel art (dot by dot which would take a long time), and I could design a good UI... but my graphic talents sort of end there.

Ideally if I made a game, given that my talent mainly lies in writing, I would have a full coder, and maybe 2 artists (one to design locations, one for characters, and hire someone else entirely for the UI - or just use defaults or buy packages of assets).

Honestly, I still believe I could write a game of good quality in a month. Like you said it's not a novel, and I've played over 300+ games on this site so I have experience as an observer of written games (which most aren't even great sometimes with paragraphs of text that most people skip). But also, writing is fun for me and not too difficult usually, and I have a knowledge on how to deal with writers block.... because I've dealt with it a lot.

Typically you move onto something else, another part of the story, you focus on something you can do, you take it step by step, and you look for inspiration. I also know that my writing tends to flow better after a walk, shower, or late at night. That being said I also don't work right now, so I would have hours to dedicate to a project, if motivation was good I could do it. If I failed to do it I think the failure again would come from motivation and not from the writing itself being difficult to do.

Though one can argue writing is difficult because motivation is apart of it... I just think on a purely technical level the amount of work writing a game is not 2 years worth. That 2 years is something else, art delays, or motivation, or constant edits of the outline/plan you have. Or worst case scenario it's going with the flow, writing the story as you go... meaning the outline is still being developed which would be really bad.

I write for a living, and I assure you, your belief is unfounded. Grinding out A+ papers at a collegiate level is in no way a precursor for doing professional work. The fastest scripts I have ever witnessed turned in were done by writers rooms that usually combined multiple authors to get their results. These also tend to be the most hit and miss in terms of quality. Publishers would kill to find novelists who could consistently complete and have novels edited in a year or less...which is why I mentioned Stephen King, as one of the few who sometimes could do so.

An AVN doesn't labor under the same levels of scrutiny as movie/TV scripts and publishing house novels...but that doesn't mean that word counts can't be comparable...and of course there always is a potential for some writers block...or you know, the art/coding/etc. taking some time as well.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

i've played Noemi Toscana Rebirth and College Craze and Lust Campus that has female MC. Do you have any other recommendations of Female MC renpy games i haven't try? that's at least half as good as ORS?

At least half as good: Eliminates almost all non-Eva Female Protag Renpy games I'd recommend, of which there aren't many of to begin with.

What remains:

Healslut https://f95zone.to/threads/healslut-v0-84a-public-davie-zwei.30013/
Much more goofy humor, in a fantasy setting. A little cringe at times (though what adult games aren't). All in all, pretty good for a lone-dev game.

And this next one's not quite female protag, but close enough really and it deserves so much more love. You technically play as the girl's manager, helping her make decisions, but see a bunch of the story from her perspective (she narrates/recounts over half of the scenes featured & makes some decisions independently throughout her day). So it's pretty close to ORS in that sense, getting a male and female protag in a way:

Tabletop Pornstar: https://f95zone.to/threads/tabletop-bornstar-v0-40-basilicata.75111/
Lots of lesbian content too, if that's anyone's thing, along with the good ol' classic penis-in-the-vagina, as I like to call it. Currently, I might actually like this one a little better than ORS, fwiw. But I don't want to overhype it either, as mileage may vary.


If you want some non-renpy female-MC suggestions or some Renpy games where males are ok, just ask.

 

[camube]

At least half as good: Eliminates almost all non-Eva Female Protag Renpy games I'd recommend, of which there aren't many of to begin with.

What remains:

Healslut https://f95zone.to/threads/healslut-v0-84a-public-davie-zwei.30013/
Much more goofy humor, in a fantasy setting. A little cringe at times (though what adult games aren't). All in all, pretty good for a lone-dev game.

And this one's not quite female protag, but close enough really and it deserves so much more love. You technically play as the girl's manager, helping her make decisions, but see a bunch of the story from her perspective (she narrates/recounts over half of the scenes featured & makes some decisions independently throughout her day). So it's pretty close to ORS in that sense, getting a male and female protag in a way:

Tabletop Pornstar: https://f95zone.to/threads/tabletop-bornstar-v0-40-basilicata.75111/
Lots of lesbian content too, if that's anyone's thing, along with the good ol' classic penis-in-the-vagina, as I like to call it. Currently, I might actually like this one a little better than ORS, fwiw. But I don't want to overhype it either, as mileage may vary.


If you want some non-renpy female-MC suggestions or some Renpy games where males are ok, just ask.

unity is fine too if you have any recommendation that way

male protag is fine too if you feel it's somewhat "similar" in some aspects to ORS

i think i'm going to limit myself to those 2 engines for now. html kinda not my thing, mostly.
rpgm i dont have time to play it. it takes too long

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

unity is fine too if you have any recommendation that way

male protag is fine too if you feel it's somewhat "similar" in some aspects to ORS

i think i'm going to limit myself to those 2 engines for now. html kinda not my thing, mostly.
rpgm i dont have time to play it. it takes too long

A few of the best female protag VNs actually were in twine/html, so I'll forego those. With one notable exception, RPGM games are generally terrible, so I wouldn't have many suggestions there anyway.

Honestly, half of the best Renpy/Unity AVNs (Aurelia, What A Legend, Mist, Knightly Passions) are cartoony male-mc-based games that take place in fantasy settings, but I assume you're looking for more real-world based modern settings that focus on relationships. Here are a few more with those qualities, albeit most with male mcs. Few of these are as good as ORS/GGGB as a whole though.

Almost half as good, female protag & in renpy:
Bright Past - Grind and uneven gameplay, but shows promise if dev can pull it together at some point. Very unique & expansive open world. Also similar to ORS in that every male is a scumbag (only partially kidding). Quite a bit less realistic too, though, with some truly cringe npcs.

Other decent realworld(ish)/modern based VNs that share some similarities, though not female protag:

Long Story Short: Similar in having a wider range of paths and relationship choices + a nice corruption path built in. A lot of detail goes into relationships here. Cons: Das3d. Some like Das, but I prefer hand-drawn generally. I like this one a lot, but that's likely because it does some of my kinks well (namely, corruption). Also, not much content yet. Fat character in the beginning also looks ridiculous, but I chalk that up to Das3d's awful modeling of overweight characters. Writing: Pretty shaky at the start, but gets progressively better as dev develops their skills.

These two are more of a stretch:
Sylvia: Hand-drawn and pretty fantastic for what it is. It is more cartoon-styled though, limited in relationship paths and highly focused on the male MC's perspective, though very detailed in emotional build-up. Professional-quality all around. Not "bro"-ish in the least.

Sandstorm: Renpy, focused on multiple relationship paths, but with a narrative/story focus also. Cons for you: Male MC, Sci-Fi elements, Das3d. Also, pretty low on the humor, with some "bro" elements and amateur writing at points (which defines almost all of the games on this site, tbf).

IMO, Healslut and Tabletop Born Star are the two I'd most highly recommend, based on what I think you might be looking for. Both hit some, but not all, of your criteria. There just aren't many similar games of quality, to be honest.

A few of my other favorites are sadly, but predictably, abandoned.

 

[StreamSteam]

Some error or last update was really in april ?

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Yep, I just meant writing the text for the game (and not having a ready coded and playable game). You are correct that assuming I am as good a writer as I claim to be (or think I am), that I would probably have an advantage over someone else who was a great graphic designer when it comes to writing.

I am not sure what the coding aspect would involve, I never worked with REN'PY. I have slight coding experience making websites in html/css and with javascript making some simple discord bots. But coding has always been challenging for me. I also have graphic experience, but EVA would outright destroy me in terms of art done on a computer. I could draw very good art on paper, I can do very good pixel art (dot by dot which would take a long time), and I could design a good UI... but my graphic talents sort of end there.

Ideally if I made a game, given that my talent mainly lies in writing, I would have a full coder, and maybe 2 artists (one to design locations, one for characters, and hire someone else entirely for the UI - or just use defaults or buy packages of assets).

Honestly, I still believe I could write a game of good quality in a month. Like you said it's not a novel, and I've played over 300+ games on this site so I have experience as an observer of written games (which most aren't even great sometimes with paragraphs of text that most people skip). But also, writing is fun for me and not too difficult usually, and I have a knowledge on how to deal with writers block.... because I've dealt with it a lot.

Typically you move onto something else, another part of the story, you focus on something you can do, you take it step by step, and you look for inspiration. I also know that my writing tends to flow better after a walk, shower, or late at night. That being said I also don't work right now, so I would have hours to dedicate to a project, if motivation was good I could do it. If I failed to do it I think the failure again would come from motivation and not from the writing itself being difficult to do.

Though one can argue writing is difficult because motivation is apart of it... I just think on a purely technical level the amount of work writing a game is not 2 years worth. That 2 years is something else, art delays, or motivation, or constant edits of the outline/plan you have. Or worst case scenario it's going with the flow, writing the story as you go... meaning the outline is still being developed which would be really bad.

I love how well you explained it and people still refuse to acknowledge it.

The dev has openly stated she has issues with where the story is going and that's the number 1 problem the game has.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

I think the confusion lies on your side, lets look at the
Original Post from Sharpx23

(underlined and bolded the relevant parts by me)
which you liked, reposted and supported with your remark

Granted you already watered down the OP by stating "an entire game in a single month" which is in and itself a bold statement. Even if i was able to write

You must be registered to see the links

in a single month, you know this wouldn't be a game we are talking about.
And you needed to paddle even further back by talking about monthly updates, when you realized this.

Honestly, i don't see the goal you and your fellow compatriots try to achieve. Do you really believe that you can speed up this process by scouring EvaKisses weekly reports for signs that they may or may not have fucked up again?
And trying to bolster your views by statements which are so unfounded and biased that they are borderline trolling? Presenting them as facts?

The only fact i see here is, that ch.10 is overdue compared to devs track record so far. Literally everything else is speculation.
There could be dozens of reasons for that: illness, motivation, milking, writers block, personal and relationship issues, covid, etc.
Perhaps you are surprised to hear, that no one is obligated to tell the real reason of underperformance to anyone, let alone the whole internet. If i am suffering from depression my employer has no right to know that, i can lie openly in their face.

So any reason EvaKiss gives for this games delay is as good as any other, the only important matter is if they are able to keep enough patreons to sustain their project. And as far as i know the patreons have spoken on that matter, when they voted for a full release.

This discussion goes on for weeks if not months already, sparked again every other day by the faction you apparently belong to, without ever bringing something new to the table. If you are comfortable steaming in your own juices, and raking in those likes from equal minded people, go on, i will not stop you.

Lets assume for a moment you are right in everything you said. Now what would be different? Nothing, the game will continue or not at an unpredictable pace, because the future is not predictable.
I don't know where you live, but you are probably aware of a certain pandemic which claimed the lives of millions worldwide, and in europe there is a certain war ongoing which can evolve into a nuclear showdown, like a certain president doesn't get tired of to threaten with.

With all these unpredictabilities i prefer to hope for the best, and look forward to wank in peace to ch.10 of ORS around christmas. I don't need to reprimand a Dev who provided us so far with two top notch games.

Nowhere is it said the game would be the same length as either GGGB or ORS, just that it would be of the same quality.

And the user is right. As long as you know what you are doing you should be able to write it.

 

[cleptomanix]

just another awesome game by eva kiss! nothing more to say

 

[camube]

A few of the best female protag VNs actually were in twine/html

May I also ask the twine/html recommendation? I might as well check it out.
And thank you very much for the recommendation post sofar.

 

[JoJoPool]

right? i was so disappointed not finding not even one feet scene in GGGB, even if the drawing was so accurate and sexy. are there some feet content in Our Red String?

actually....there is. NOW BEHOLD !!!

Spoiler: foot fetish scene

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