Just looking for some feedback on the new Patreon Age Verification process. It seems that the adult content providers are now going to need to prove to Patreon they are of age by sending a photo of a driver's license and a smartphone photo. I tried it with my address and driver's license no. redacted and it was rejected even though my birthdate and photo were clearly visible. I understand that there is probably a very secure company doing the verification, but even the most secure have had leaks and in the U.S. a driver's license, address, your tax ID. No. , and two photo's are basically a skeleton key to everything you own. Am I just being paranoid, or is this a concern for another developer as well that use Patreon? I'm curious what your thoughts are.
Patreon Age Verification
- Thread starter Ricktor
- Start date
- Jul 2, 2017
- 1,268
- 3,368
Supposedly they verify then delete, and don't store anything. Want to believe that? Up to you. You're not paranoid though, they are out to get you.
But also, you can't really skip it and stay on Patreon.
- Jun 10, 2017
- 10,958
- 16,192
Well, of course, there's a risk of identity theft with this verification process, but should I remind you that, whatever if you are patron or creator, you give them the right to interact with your bank/paypal/whatever account ?
You trust them enough to not stealth your money, but not to not stealth your identity ?
Personally, I would use an alternative like SubscribeStar. Patreon has been against porn forever now, they and Paypal have been acting as a sort of morality police, deciding who is and isn't allowed to make money.
I honestly would not be surprised if they chose to keep logs of your information just incase they can find a way to fuck you over in the future.
I honestly would not be surprised if they chose to keep logs of your information just incase they can find a way to fuck you over in the future.
If Patreon didn't deliver your cash out request, or tried to take money out of your account, there would be a massive incident around it, all of that is handled in logs with bank security.
But nothing stops some employee from just downloading the pictures, keeping your information on his phone to use later.
- Jul 20, 2018
- 724
- 1,185
I'm not sure as to what I'll do. maybe I will maybe I wont. I don't know. Have to do a lot of thinking about it still. But this is also because I will never produce content fast enough to warrant people to support me. (Or at least not for more than a one time donation.)
And before you rant on. Did you know there are companies that advice porn producers on how to comply with the (often) vague wording of Visa and Mastercard? What words/themes they can and cannot use? If you wish to direct your anger than direct it to the right companies.
Why doesn't Subscribestar do the same? don't really know. Maybe they are still in the growth fase and think it's worth the risk until they reach critical mass and then eject all adult creators like Onlyfans tried to do. Or they don't have that great of a legal team. Or they think they are small enough to not be in the crosshairs of the big two. Who knows. No matter what their strategy carries risk one way or another.
Other than that there are legal requirements which is probably why Patreon does not want real porn on their platform. It would open them to a lot of extra rules and regulations and record keeping. And messing up can carry hefty fines and prison sentences.
You drank the coolaid. Werther Patreon (and Paypal) want to or not they are beholden to Visa and Mastercard. A lot of the rules these (and other) platforms enact come from this Duopoly. If you hadn't noticed a lot of banks make use of either. A payment platform cannot survive if either pulls the plug. If I was in their shoes I would make similar decisions. I mean why risk the entire platform for the tiniest amount of income relatively speaking.
And before you rant on. Did you know there are companies that advice porn producers on how to comply with the (often) vague wording of Visa and Mastercard? What words/themes they can and cannot use? If you wish to direct your anger than direct it to the right companies.
Why doesn't Subscribestar do the same? don't really know. Maybe they are still in the growth fase and think it's worth the risk until they reach critical mass and then eject all adult creators like Onlyfans tried to do. Or they don't have that great of a legal team. Or they think they are small enough to not be in the crosshairs of the big two. Who knows. No matter what their strategy carries risk one way or another.
Other than that there are legal requirements which is probably why Patreon does not want real porn on their platform. It would open them to a lot of extra rules and regulations and record keeping. And messing up can carry hefty fines and prison sentences.
I'm not here to rant, this is advice. SubscribeStar is the host for shit patreon won't allow, and it's been that way since Patreon started banning conservative political accounts around 2016.
It's smaller, sure. Maybe that's how they get around the vague legal requirements? Not a topic I'm familiar with, not gonna speak on that further (maybe you should do the same).
But it's not like you or I will ever catch the lightning in a bottle that summertime saga did. There's more than enough room to grow on there if you're setting out to earn something that'll help pay for the hours you're losing to making your game.
Last edited:
- Jun 10, 2017
- 10,958
- 16,192
There's, all around the world, example of employees who were taking one or two cents for every transactions and already stolen millions when they were finally caught. But even in this case, thanks to Patreon being totally clear regarding who they are, you would win millions in court.
Try to do the same with subscribestar, that is registered in the USA, but only loan a postal box there, and owned by a strawman who live on the other side of the planet. Try it, just for the fun.
And there's also nothing inciting him to do so. When you've the chance to works for a company like Patreon, and so to be payed well enough to live in or near San Francisco, you don't fuck up your life by doing this.
I have an idea on this question: They exist solely to host what can't be hosted on Patreon ; alt right, ultra left, extreme porn, and prostitution ring.
That would explain why they never cared to be less shady, to have an official representation with a local and people inside, and to be a bit more responsive and professional. Why should they do all this when the majority of those who need to use their service will be happy by the sole fact that they don't risk to be kicked out ?
Do they even have a legal team ?
Let's say that the official owner is not a strawman, then it's a guy who live in a cheap building in a small Russian town. Patreon being in San Fransisco, there's probably a dozen offices specialized in international law around them, but I'm not sure that there's at least one lawyer with this knowledge near Subscribestar's official owner. Not because it's Russia, but because when your qualifications and field make that you can charge thousands for just one hour of work, you live and work where people can pay you, not in the middle of nowhere in hope that you'll finally have a client.
After, if the official owner is just a strawman, yeah, they have access to this kind of lawyers. But then they would be as shady as a guy who need a strawman for an hosting platform like subscribestar.
Well, legally speaking they would earn money from prostitution, making them a pimp. And if there's minors involved it would be worse. Being said that it's precisely why they are now asking for your identity, they apply the change in EU laws regarding protection of minors.
It's also why Visa and Mastercard are cautious with the subject. They are effectively way too cautious, but I remember them having to face justice, in the early 90's if my memory don't betray me, but it can have been earlier, due to them knowingly dealing with crime lords money. I don't remember how it ended, nor if they were effectively indicted, but it was on the news for a long time ; long enough for them wanting that it never happen again. So I guess that now the rule is to not take a single risk.
But strictly speaking they have nothing against porn, they still works with Patreon after all. It's just that there's some kind of porn that are too near to the grey areas, and this one they want to avoid it.
I could though, they stand to lose more from evading the law than they'd gain from fucking me over. If I sue subscribestar they have to fold or fight it, transparency or not they obey the law or the FBI comes down on them.
No, the developers are not going through and verifying every account personally. Time is money when you're paid by the hour, they'd have a much less expensive employee do it. Not the ideal city life you're picturing.
And no, you don't have to risk much to profit from identity theft, you can just sell the information to a criminal who would risk cashing in on it. It's extremely common and hard to investigate.
Yeah calm down, that and the rest of your ranting about the prostitution rings (which I can't find anything on them being involved in?) is way far off topic.
What world do you live in that San Francisco is the only city to have lawyers? Just by the fact that international companies exist in Russia (which I haven't found a source to say the owner is from btw) international lawyers would also exist to argue for Russian companies.
I'm just not even sure you live on this planet to be honest.
- Jun 10, 2017
- 10,958
- 16,192
I'm waiting to see the FBI come down for the only guy named in all the official documents related to subscribestar ; a guy living in Russia... It was already far to be something plausible one year ago, but nowadays it's just laughable.
But well, they can raid the postal box if they want. It will don't help, but be funny to see I guess.
What developers are you referring ? What the fucking fuck are you talking about exactly ? :/
And who's talking about an ideal city life exactly ? I just stated facts, Patreon office being located in San Francisco, people working there do not live in the middle of Illinois or Ohio, but in, or near to, San Francisco.
Saying that two weeks after the operation Cookie Monster ended is funny. And it's just the last operation in date.
And where exactly did I said that they were involved in a prostitution ring ?
I said that subscribestar exist to host what can't be hosted by Patreon, and gave example of what can't be hosted by Patreon, nothing more. I'm not responsible for your inability to understand what you read.
In what world do you live to be an adult and totally unable to understand basic sentences ?
I said that in San Francisco, so near to the Silicon Valley and where many international start ups have their headquarter, there's probably dozen of lawyer offices practicing international law. At no time this mean, or even just imply indirectly, that it's the only town where there's lawyer offices.
And I also didn't said that there's none in Russia, just that they have no reason to exist in a town located in the middle of nowhere. And, because you really have strong understanding issues, "they" mean "lawyer office practicing international law", not just lawyers, not just lawyer offices.
- Jul 20, 2018
- 724
- 1,185
Yeah I just showed I know nothing about the company. That was the message I wanted to convey
Didn't the US Supreme Court rule that if it's porn it isn't prostitution? Porn falls under free speech. So having sex with a prostitute might mean you could get arrested by the police. Doing the same and filming it as porn and they cannot. (at least that is what I vagely remember from one show or another. EU has lots of different laws of course. Depending on the country prostitution might be legal or illegal and porn also works differently.
Didn't know about the history with Visa and Mastercard. It was a little before I started following the news.
Yeah I agree there is a massive difference between law firm and international law firm. International law is even harder than regular law. With regular law you pretty much only have to deal with one countries laws. With international law you have to deal with multiple countries' laws, non-governmental bodies like the UN and EU and a whole host of agreements between countries. it's a clusterfuck to say the least.
- Jun 10, 2017
- 10,958
- 16,192
I kind of remember something like that, but don't quote me on this ; I'm not even US resident, I mostly know about their Law what other say about.
But anyway it's interesting that you point this. I don't remember what was her nickname, but the best earning creator when Patreon ban started was offering nudes and porn to her patrons. I don't remember how much she was earning, but it was 6 digits. And in the same time, she was offering the girlfriend experience to anyone who was rich enough to pay for her company, including her stay on a luxury palace and, if needed, her travel. Most of her clients were Asian CEO and people like that, so you can expect that this too was a 6 digit numbers.
I never was one of her patrons, so I don't know if she advertised for the girlfriend experience directly there, but it seem clear that between her speeches and photos, her Patreon account was the best possible showcase for this part of her activities. So, what was her use of Patreon ? Porn, prostitution, both ? Difficult to say.
And it's one of the problem with amateur porn ; where did it stop doing legal porn, and start doing illegal activities ?
In 2021 the NY Times published the result of their investigation on Pornhub. Underage sex, torture, rape, prostitution, and so on. Of course, a part, and a big one, is fake ; the thirtish mom having sex with her supposed twentish son isn't limited to games.
But a part is real. I remember, years ago, watching a threesome supposed to be totally normal, when at some point the youngest girl said, "by the way mom, I really like the way you suck dad". It was the only instant in all the video that was referring to the supposed relationship... hard to not regard this as being something that is just the truth.
And what about maledom videos ? When it come to porn I'm a switch, and it's amazing the number of maledom videos where the girls suffer and feel fear from starts to stop. Something extremely rare in femdom videos, where the guy always have his moment of pleasure. Are those women better actress, or stuck in an abusive relationship ?
Like you said, there's company dedicated to legal consulting for porn studios. There's a reason behind this. Never say or do something that can let think that the girl was forced to give her consent... Never, unless you want to loose all possibility to earn some money.
Strictly speaking this point do not concern Patreon, because to public knowledge they were never caught hosting such content. But if they were still letting real life porn be hosted, who know when it would have happened ; if it wasn't already happening in some account with low visibility. After all, there's still incest games on Patreon, they are just unnoticed so far.
In the end, I guess that the main issue come from the way VISA and Mastercard presented their demands. I guess they addressed the topics in a global manner, and to be safe Patreon decided to include games into the ban. Not doing it could have harmed all the creators, SFW included. This while doing it permit to continue safely hosting a big parts of the adult content creators.
I'm almost sure that it depend. If you are the one who pay and come with the camera, yes, it's porn. But if you are the one who pay, and she come with the camera, I'm not sure that Justice would still see it as being purely porn. I guess it would depend how good the girl lawyer is at convincing the court that she is offering a service so you can brag that you made a sextape. After all, actors are supposed to be payed because they are on the movie, not the opposite.
It's like escorts. Sex isn't included in the offered service, and come as just a possibility between consenting adults. It's legal in almost all the parts of the world, yet there's regularly escort agencies that face justice and are sentenced. There's always a moment where the line is so thin that you fall on the wrong side. What send back, again, to the companies advising porn makers. They exist so their clients never reach one of those moments.
And, once again, I guess from Jack Conte (Patreon co-founder) speeches that they decided to draw a large line in order to never fall on the wrong side. Both to the eyes of Justice and the one of their payment processor partners.
It's probably also the reason why they decided to outsource their Security and Safety team last year. Using the service of a dedicated company offer a two layers security. Firstly, unlike the guys you would employ yourself, they have a high knowledge of the regulations to follow and how they have to be followed. Secondly, if there's a failure, it's their fault, not yours. And both are as important.
To be honest your English is terrible, talking about how they'll "stealth" my money earlier.
Beyond that you're smug about things you know nothing about and it's irritating so I'm being funny where I can.
Ok, but you do realize that the owner is in charge of a multi-million dollar company yes? He could easily afford to live in a major city. What point are you even trying to make here?
Bit odd you keep circling back to Russia like any association with a Russian is suspicious (again not even sure he's from there), some political bias I'm not gonna touch on.
You're going on about how Patreon has to pay it's workers very well because it's based in San Francisco. You're missing the point that nobody is paying $40 an hour to read driver's licenses :/
Honestly, maybe move this thread to off-topic. I wouldn't exactly say you're answering the question that was asked so much as ranting about how you don't like my suggestion.
- Jan 21, 2022
- 8,332
- 16,041
Yes and no. As you later state, it "depends."
Depending upon the country, there are various measurements their justice system uses to determine if the content is protected or violates obscenity laws on the books. For the USA, that's the Miller Test. For Canada, 'material is deemed obscene if "a dominant characteristic" of it is "the undue exploitation of sex" or sex combined with "crime, horror, cruelty and violence"' that violates the law. Etc. Etc. Always seek proper legal counsel if you need proper answers.
Remember - it doesn't stop prosecutors hell-bent to apply their own view of the law from throwing the book at anyone they think is violating the law...
- Jun 10, 2017
- 10,958
- 16,192
I just state a fact. Officially subscribestar have been founded by Mikhail Zadvornyy, and he's a Russian citizen.
It's public knowledge, partly because the documents creating the company are publicly available through the web, like for all companies created in the US. Not living in the US myself I don't remember the website, but I'm sure that you know it. After all, it's on the same institutional site that the tax declarations are published, and you know that subscribestar is a multi-millions company, so you've seen them, right ?
And we circle back to Russia again. Like talking to a brick wall.
- Apr 13, 2021
- 1,825
- 1,481
I am not sure how to express myself on this topic.
When in think of making a game, i don't want to tell the usual story you seen a thousand times over.
I am interested in stories that are written by life. Showing the ugliness of the true life's gone wrong.
So a game like that would be porn but at the same time it would show acts that aren't covered by free speech. Or are they?
Since this is also about Patreon, i definitely think this would have no chance to be on there. So i kind of consider itch or something else.
Then again, there is this comic series on Renderotica where i am not sure if this is allowed but is sold like the slave series by Thomas Tergel.
So that leaves me very confused indeed.
- Jul 20, 2018
- 724
- 1,185
I was talking about the US specifically here. It is the reason why porn eventually was legalized there. Of course there are still things that cannot be produced legally due to (good) reason.
- Jul 20, 2018
- 724
- 1,185
I think anne O'nymous point was more about it being a straw man rather than them being in Russia. It doesn't need to be Russia. In the UK there was a town where half the people where company owners on paper for companies they had never heard off or had anything to do with. Don't remember the details exactly but they got paid a nominal amount to be the owners of those companies. Some had a dozen or so companies to their name. For the actual owners of those companies it paid to be a UK company that was more trusted in the publics eye than where ever they where actually from. (Call it racist but it is the way it is. Some countries carry more weight internationally than others).
The company is in the US. the person on the documents is someone from the middle of nowhere Russia (There is a lot of middle of nowhere in Russia... and if there is a legal issue Russia is probably the best place to be right now.) But who is actually pulling the strings unknown.
- Jun 10, 2017
- 10,958
- 16,192
Exactly. I would like to say that he's Swedish, but it's not where he live ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Exactly again. It can be Mikhail Zadvornyy, for a long time he presented himself like a web entrepreneur, so why not. But on the official documents, there's only one name. Generally there's more. You rarely found a company all by yourself and without advisors, while the owner rarely double as chief accountant. But this is just a strangeness, not something impossible.
Then, after the first year (or was it the second, I don't remember for sure), the name changed, what add to the strangeness. You rarely sell such website when he's so young and potentially so promising, and when it's just a promise, your investor will invest in the company, not buy it ; if it don't works he will loose less. And anyway there's normally documents when you sell your company, what isn't the case here.
If you add the fact that the company is declared in one country, where it only have a postal box, while the owner live in another, plus two-three other strangeness, everything end so blurry, that it naturally point to Mikhail being a straw man more than the effective owner.
What doesn't mean that it's necessarily mafia, or whatever like this, that is behind. If I was rich enough to starts a site like subscribestar, because I want to continue having my dose of borderline porn games, I would probably not want to have my name associated to it, to not harm the official business that made me rich.