Patreon and incest patch

doku99

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Mar 21, 2018
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I don't really understand what Anne O'nymous is suggesting a solution to be. Basically, every game needs to have fleshed out story with the "landlady"? Most people know that when the "landlady" option shows up, it's because you're supposed to set it to an incest option instead, and it's a workaround. I don't know how that is "bad writing" imo.
 

Meaning Less

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Most people know that when the "landlady" option shows up
Well most people are not everyone, there is also a chunk of players that don't like or care about incest and intentionally play these games without patches.

(I've seen even people asking how to remove patches from games that were pre-patched)
 

doku99

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Mar 21, 2018
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Well most people are not everyone, there is also a chunk of players that don't like or care about incest and intentionally play these games without patches.

(I've seen even people asking how to remove patches from games that were pre-patched)
It's true that most people aren't all people, but given that it's a problem created by Patreon, it's a matter of imperfect solutions and trade-offs. You can't please everyone and I think the "landlady" workaround works quite okay. If you have a game with incest, what are you meant to do if you want to be monetized? Re-create huge portions the whole game with a non-incest mode?
 

Meaning Less

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You can't please everyone and I think the "landlady" workaround works quite okay.
I'm not sure you got the point, landlady by itself is not the issue.

The issue is that simply replacing the relation without considering anything else can cause inconsistencies in the writing, which can be fixed with some little extra polishing instead of a brute "replace all".
 

doku99

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Mar 21, 2018
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I'm not sure you got the point, landlady by itself is not the issue.

The issue is that simply replacing the relation without considering anything else can cause inconsistencies in the writing, which can be fixed with some little extra polishing instead of a brute "replace all".
That's what I'm questioning. The relation between a son and a mother, and a man and his landlady, is hugely different. The interactions would be drastically dissimilar and so the story could realistically diverge in much different directions. If you wanted to be completely consistent, you'd be talking potentially about a very large re-write, and all for the sake of avoiding Patreon censorship. To put it another way: if you wanted to be 100% consistent, you'd have to do a whole lot more than just adding an "extra little polish."

The ability to choose between "landlady" and "enter your relation here" always seemed to me to mean "ah, this game has incest."
 

Meaning Less

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To put it another way: if you wanted to be 100% consistent, you'd have to do a whole lot more than just adding an "extra little polish."
Obviously I'm just talking about the minimal ammount of changes that already clear inconsistencies in the dialogue. Noone is talking about remaking the game...
 

doku99

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Obviously I'm just talking about the minimal ammount of changes that already clear inconsistencies in the dialogue. Noone is talking about remaking the game...
This is from Anne O'nymous:
Asking the player to enter the relationship between the MC and a character is equivalent to say, "I have near to no writing skills, but let me present you my cheap story". It doesn't mean that the game can't be enjoyable, but it will be because the player lowered his expectation the instant he had to write "mother" on his keyboard.

So if we take that to be true, that having the ability to choose another relation to the mother means that the gamemaker has no writing skills and the story is instantly cheap, the question is: what's then the alternative?
 

anne O'nymous

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The relation between a son and a mother, and a man and his landlady, is hugely different. The interactions would be drastically dissimilar and so the story could realistically diverge in much different directions.
Exactly, the interactions are assumed to be drastically dissimilar. Therefore, they should be at least a bit dissimilar in order to make sense, don't you think ?

The context of the game will itself be fantasist, so that the landlady act like a substitution mother will not feel too odd. I'm sure that remembering your youth, you'll find one woman, a neighbor or friend's mom, who was always motherly with any young she interacted with. This "oh dear, it's too cold outside, you should have wore a coat"/"you're so pale, let me check your temperature quickly"/"I hear your parents are out of town right now, tell me, you don't only eat on pizza, right ? It's not healthy at your age you know" kind of woman.

But it will not feel too odd as long as she don't totally forgot that she's the landlady. And it's what happen with games where the patch is limited to "enter how you call her" kind of questions.
That she never talk about the rent, no one will really care. But that she start giving some pocket money, seriously ? That she feel too close to you to engage in a relationship, why not. But that she argue that it's because it's your landlady and one shouldn't have sex with his landlady because it's not moral, what the fuck ?

In most games, it would never be more than a hundred dialog lines that would need to be changed, over dozen of thousands of dialog lines. And if you planed your story to take those difference into account, only a dozen of lines would need to be changed ; the one related to her motive to initially refuse to engage in a relationship with the MC.
It's not something big, but it will make a big difference for the players ; the same kind of difference that an ambidextrous tool make for left-handed. The author of the game cared about all his players, making a game they can enjoy whatever if they want to play the incest version or the none incest one.


Edit:
So if we take that to be true, that having the ability to choose another relation to the mother means that the gamemaker has no writing skills and the story is instantly cheap, the question is: what's then the alternative?
I said it, with most game engines it's not too difficult to replace a sentence by another one.
Make sure the landlady do not act as only a mother would do, and for the few case where you can't, at least have two versions of the key dialog lines. One that apply to the mother, and one that apply to the landlady.

Mother "You're really a lazy ass ! Never leaving your room, except at lunch time. I'll not pay for you all my life, you need to find a job else I'll kick you out of the house."
Landlady "You're really a lazy ass ! Never leaving your room, except at lunch time. You don't live here for free, you need to find a job else I'll rent your room to someone else."

Mother "Hey, son, you behaved recently, here's some pocket money, use it as it please you."
Landlady "By the way, there were this with the last payment your parents did. Since there's no instruction, I guess they want you to use it as it please you."

Mother "No, we will not shower together ! I know that we did it in the past, but you were a baby at this time. It's really inappropriate for an adult son to shower with his mother."
Landlady "No, we will not shower together ! I don't care that you did it with your mother when you were a baby, we don't have this kind of relationship, period."

Mother "I get it, you're young and horny every time, and for whatever reason you think I'm more beautiful that girls your age. But no, we will not have sex ! I'm your mother for god sake !"
Landlady "I get it, you're young and horny every time, and for whatever reason you think I'm more beautiful that girls your age. But I'll not have sex with you. How inconvenient it would be, you live under my roof since too long don't you think ?"

And so on.
 
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doku99

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Exactly, the interactions are assumed to be drastically dissimilar. Therefore ...
You first said, quote, "Asking the player to enter the relationship between the MC and a character is equivalent to say, "I have near to no writing skills, but let me present you my cheap story."

So maybe then what you meant was "asking the player to enter the relationship between the MC and a character [and then changing nothing else in the dialogue] is equivalent to say, "I have near to no writing skills, but let me present you my cheap story."

Pretty big difference if so. And if you don't mean that, and you meant what you originally said, then it's pretty odd to answer the question "what is the alternative?" with the exact same method you first condemned as "no writing skills."

Even then, I think your assertion is very flawed. You can have an amazing story, with mother/son elements, that is written very well, and then do the "landlady" workaround just in order to appease Patreon. It certainly would be more thorough to adjust the game based on the non-familial option, but not doing it doesn't magically make the whole game shitty and cheap.
 

anne O'nymous

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So maybe then what you meant was "asking the player to enter the relationship between the MC and a character [and then changing nothing else in the dialogue] is equivalent to say, "I have near to no writing skills, but let me present you my cheap story."
No, because the first imply the second. Patreon isn't full of idiots, they can make the difference between a flagrant attempt to bypass their rules, and a mod altering a story.

Let's say that someone report them a game, saying, "hey, if you enter 'mother' when asked for the relationship with the character supposed to be the landlady, you've then a totally different game, with different dialog lines, that is a clear violation of your Terms of Service because it's an incest game". What do you think they'll do ? They'll obviously ban the author for this violation.
But if someone report them a game, saying, "hey, if you use this patch, that don't seem to be created by the author of the game, then the landlady become the 'mother', and even have different dialog lines, turning the game into an incest one", they'll do nothing. The author of the game and the author of the patch don't seem related, therefore there's no violation of their Terms of Service.


Even then, I think your assertion is very flawed. You can have an amazing story, with mother/son elements, that is written very well, and then do the "landlady" workaround just in order to appease Patreon.
We can, yet it's been now years that Patreon ban incest, and we are still waiting for this miraculous game to exist.
 

doku99

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No, because the first imply the second. Patreon isn't full of idiots, they can make the difference between a flagrant attempt to bypass their rules, and a mod altering a story.

Let's say that someone report them a game, saying, "hey, if you enter 'mother' when asked for the relationship with the character supposed to be the landlady, you've then a totally different game, with different dialog lines, that is a clear violation of your Terms of Service because it's an incest game". What do you think they'll do ? They'll obviously ban the author for this violation.
But if someone report them a game, saying, "hey, if you use this patch, that don't seem to be created by the author of the game, then the landlady become the 'mother', and even have different dialog lines, turning the game into an incest one", they'll do nothing. The author of the game and the author of the patch don't seem related, therefore there's no violation of their Terms of Service.
Okay. So as far as I can tell, your proposed solution then is to create two versions of the game, one with incest, one without it, and then sneakily create a "fanmade" patch/mod and let your players "find it" somehow. While that is fair enough, I think it's still a little unfair to condemn the gamemakers that don't go that far as completely lacking any skill.
anne O'nymous said:
We can, yet it's been now years that Patreon ban incest, and we are still waiting for this miraculous game to exist.
Who is "we"? I've played plenty games with the "landylady" thing that have been perfectly fine and enjoyable. Just my ¢2.00.
 

jamdan

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Sep 28, 2018
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I think it's possible to do a dialog replacement patch, which replaces entire lines of dialog, not just specific words, which I think should work better than the standard "landlady" patch. Since I do agree that seeing "landlady" and "roommate" gets pretty irritating and sometimes even cringy. Also the unrealistic usage of "mom" and "daughter" or other relations when the game gets patched that way would be avoided with a more realistic dialog patch.

IRL, most people rarely mention their relations unless it's introductions to someone else. They call each other by their names instead. Besides the son/daughter calling their mom/dad their mom/dad. The siblings almost always call each other by their real name. And the parents very rarely if ever call their daughter "daughter" like they may do for their son.