Don't give up. Seraphim Academy started as a basic idea of "Lesbian school girl gotta fuck em all". In trying to make it more engaging it evolved into a psychological thriller revolving around a polyamorous aspiring screenwriter.
Porn Game Tropes: The good, the bad, and the fugly
- Thread starter Burt Reynolds Mustache
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- Oct 27, 2018
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Somehow I missed this thread till now. A few thoughts:
Most characters in Man of the House are actually easily seen as the ones doing the actual seduction. I have a hard time believing the little sister is NOT the one seducing the MC, the big one is obviously doing it (he has no blackmail against her after very little while), the Mom is a full blown "Incest game creep MC", once she decides to fuck her son. Sophie is probably the only one that doesn't take the initiative. Than again, there is a reason the game is so popular
Also all the "slut best friend" characters in Dating my Daughter type games are usually the ones who jump the MC, not the other way around. They are actually the biggest hint, that the character is ether a really unreliable narrator or doesn't have a lot of confidence himself, since he is often times considered hot by them.
Considering there is a trope about the lewd aunt... most incest games. There are is at least one that never feels like the MC did anything to bed her.
Most characters in Man of the House are actually easily seen as the ones doing the actual seduction. I have a hard time believing the little sister is NOT the one seducing the MC, the big one is obviously doing it (he has no blackmail against her after very little while), the Mom is a full blown "Incest game creep MC", once she decides to fuck her son. Sophie is probably the only one that doesn't take the initiative. Than again, there is a reason the game is so popular
Also all the "slut best friend" characters in Dating my Daughter type games are usually the ones who jump the MC, not the other way around. They are actually the biggest hint, that the character is ether a really unreliable narrator or doesn't have a lot of confidence himself, since he is often times considered hot by them.
This is the game where, if you want to sleep with your little sister, you have to watch a horror movie with her. It's also the game where you can choose to do that every night without either character just saying, "You wanna just sleep together?"
Son has to do a lot of work for mom, particularly the illegal impersonation of a medical professional and the illegal invasion of her email.
I blame Faerin for having a weak blackmail plot and no ability to write a convincing corruption for the fact that the sister's switch just all of the sudden flips.
If anything Man of the house is the game wherein nobody does anything that actually is derserving of the sexual content. Sex happens between characters because reasons.
As to the Aunt and slut best friend, I'd classify them under the relief girl trope, along with the slut milf that just gives it to you. These characters are forward, sure, but that's all they ever are. They are not the main girl, they are not the reason to play the game, just a 1 dimensional character to use until you get to the "real content"
But no, since I first started playing games I've run into a few devs who do a better job of writing forward characters. My Sister My Roommate has several of them. But it was after playing so many games like Dating my Daughter and Big Brother, and Man of the House where I feel like no one really has any depth or character motivation that I decided to become a dev in the first place.
- Oct 27, 2018
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I'd lobby for playing the latest version. Much less grind and a lot of clearing up and streamlining have been done. And I do not agree with you on any of the points. Maybe because I'm firmly in the camp of "Show, don't tell", when it comes to story writing and gaming.
Your little sister is out to get you under her moms nose from the start. "Help me with my homework, please", Watch a movie with me every goddamned night, (until I can bait you to watch a movie that scares me!)", "Oh, sorry, I accidentally kissed you", "Come again and kiss me", "Muuu, rubbing is good", "Come, bathe with me", "Show me your dick, already!", "Why aren't you watching porn with me?".... and so on. Yes it's a pretty typical stairway, but there are way more moments, where she is not only the instigator but an active seductress. She also is the one moving her shy friend plot along. Yeah, she is totally passive and not out to get the MCs dick. I will give you that there are some hints of the usual MC creeps on little sister left in the route, but compared to the amounts of time she is the one pushing him... yeah.
I've heard a lot about the "bad corruption plot". There is no corruption plot. There is no need for corruption. The big sister is telegraphing that she likes him dominating her from the start of the route. It's not perfectly done (an option to confront her at the coffee scene in the start of the game would have given good hints), but she is clearly the one pushing it from a certain moment after ("Hi, I'm Veronica and this is my master"). You also have actual sex (something she keeps away from) only after you present yourself as a capable alpha (beating that guy to shit).
And don't even get me started on the mom. Considering the only thing you do to "impersonate" the doctor is creating a simple e-mail account... no, I can't buy it. Any real attempt to present the MC as the sole instigator of this relationship has to make the mother quite dumb. And this I find less believable than she is on to him and plays along. You sleep with her after a great romantic date. How unrealistic!
The other girls don't have enough plot to comment, but the family lines are anything BUT the MC using his power of dick to seduce women. He rarely does any seducing, to be honest.
There also aren't many incest games with "main girl". So the aunt not being a main girl is a pointless complain in them.
As for the slut best friend... Same thing, tho there are at least two popular exceptions - Acting Lessons (tho I hate how that turned up) and the Babysitter, the last one doing it the smart way, IMO, but that's another topic.
The only lacking thing in games is actually dominant girls. Considering the aim of most games, tho... it's not surprising.
In the end a good story and characters are just a single part of what makes a game good. Important part, but still just a part.
- Jul 10, 2018
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Lewds happen a lot, all the time and every day. Your parents had to have sex for you to be here. Your grandparents had to have sex for them to be here. I sincerely hope that in neither of those cases was there reliance on molestation.
A game (or game dev/writer) who is dependant on molestation, stalking and peeping to create the opportunity for even the most extreme sex scenes just lacks imagination. The character is rarely further than a walk away from a strip club or prostitute if he doesn't even want to write a romantic scene for it. But the fact is that even the most boring and ordinary of people have one night stands. No character is ever further than one good date scene (or special situation) from having sex without any need for anything creepy, perverse, or outright despicable. When a writer relies on the trope means of peeping and creeping, then that's the misuse of the trope, and exactly what is being talked about.
I have to be honest, this is the game, the last straw, that made me decide I had to make my own games if I wanted to see characters with depth and personality.
You say you're a fan of show don't tell, but this is a game that starts out with a monologue to introduce us to the characters. We aren't shown who they are and what their relationship to you is, we are told it. This, in spite of there being some early character defining moments that could have easily done the job of this opening monologue, in particular, Veronica's stealing the coffee you just made scene. Perfect introduction of a bitch older sister, wasted because we were handed that information in a monologue.
As to your perception of the thing with the sister, I feel like that's projection. Not to sound over the top or make any accusations, but having played and been frustrated with the characterization in this game, I feel like what you're saying here is similar to saying "She was asking for it, dressed like that" to justify sexual assault. Again, I'm not tying to accuse you of being some sort of criminal, just saying that I don't agree with your perception of the character's actions.
When I say that I prefer to show, not tell, I can back it up. Play Seraphim Academy. I don't use any unnecessary narration, preferring to let art and actions speak for themselves. When a character feels something I make sure it is shown through expressions, when I want you to notice something I make sure the art draws your attention to it. There are several portions in it where there's no dialogue even, just concurrent images that allow you to put things together on your own.
Completely disagree. In fact, this idea that you're proposing is exactly the kind of thing I proposed to faerin myself as how to fix Veronica. Until her switch is suddenly flipped after the second blackmail attempt, there is no hint that she is the type who wants to be dominated. And I'm saying this as a dom who likes this kind of content. The simplest way to fix her character would be to have given her a boyfriend from the start and had the reason she got in trouble with the cops be some order he'd given her. Then, have his dumb ass abandon her, leaving her without a master and in swoops her little brother to blackmail her. No need to show a corruption plot, she's already established as a sub and we have a realistic idea of how she actually feels.
You're right, all he has to do to push her over the edge is 1st, overhear a conversation between her and your aunt about how she's gonna jump on the next dick she sees and then allow her to "accidentally" see your dick, and then when she worries about the morality of it all, intercept her email from the online shrink she was talking to, delete it and create a nearly identical username to tell her exactly what she needs to hear to throw caution to the wind. Your mom is fucking dumb in that game. Oh, and this is only after you get her drunk for the sole purpose of attempted molestation on the couch which, for some odd reason she doesn't see coming.And don't even get me started on the mom. Considering the only thing you do to "impersonate" the doctor is creating a simple e-mail account... no, I can't buy it. Any real attempt to present the MC as the sole instigator of this relationship has to make the mother quite dumb. And this I find less believable than she is on to him and plays along. You sleep with her after a great romantic date. How unrealistic!
I'm sorry man, in every case you're projecting. You're adding content that simply isn't there. The reason Faerin's game had so much grind is because there was no characterization no motivation, the grind was everything. You earned sex by grinding, not through relationships or forward actions. It was just do this get this result. Nothing was earned in that game man.
I'm all for slowly breaking down a character and bending them to your will with increasing demands if its a corruption game. You just have to understand that its fiction and don't really need much more than simple act of domination and control to get off. But too many games are trying to use the same formula for a love/romance relationship. That just doesn't work, especially if its an incest games. It makes 0 sense that your mother or sister would suddenly develop romantic interests because you gave them a massage or help with some homework. For this kind of situation to develop within the timeframe most games are working with, there needs to be an established interest that's already present, or some significant triggering event. I'm no expert in real life incest relationships, but I'd imagine that majority of them develops through spontaneous sexual experimentation in the background of mutual interest. The stairway to heaven situation is stupid and unrealistic in itself, but doubly so when it comes to incest. Its pretty weird to think that you could "seduce" a sister or cousin with the stairway. Seducing a parent who doesn't harbor some sort of deep seated fantasy seems unimaginable. Seducing your child is abuse/grooming.
I mean, an event is all it takes really. Something has to happen that overrides your previous psychological programming that prevented you from developing that romantic entanglement. It's no surprise so many games go with the "My daughter and I were separated for x amount of time" scenario. You develop a psychological block against romantic relationships with people you live with during the developmental years between toddler and puberty. If daddy isn't there during that time, you don't have a block to stop you from developing romantic feelings toward them aside from cultural taboo, and when has taboo ever really been able to stop people from doing things in secret?
Shocking mental trauma, like the rape and subsequent patricide that starts out my game, is another way to create a scenario wherein the programming that should prevent you from developing romantic feelings for a sibling or parent might be overridden. Trauma is pretty psychologically powerful, it has the potential to completely change who a person is at their core. It is absolutely capable of doing so much more.
And then you have things like oedipal and elektra complexes. Daughters looking to a strong male family figure as their ideal man, son's finding their mother to be their ideal woman. A combination of this and the separation during developmental years can be huge.
And then, you have people who are just a little different up top for whatever reason and never really develop that taboo. Maybe it's because they suffered a trauma at a young age, maybe it's because they lack some form of shame or another, but there are people who, no matter what nature intends, just don't react to the environment the way they are supposed to.
@DarthSeduction
Yea for sure, but it takes two to tango. Your examples make sense to explain the protagonist's motivations, but a lot of games leave out why the other party would agree to any of it. If the daughter has an established elektra complex, and you are playing the father who starts to develop feelings for her, there we go. We got the framework for a believable relationship. If you and your cousin went out for drinks, got hammered and ended up having sex, that can be a triggering event. You can probably name a number of popular games that use the stairway to heaven as the trigger for romance without ever giving a clear motivation for the girl. This goes hand in hand with the points system that makes you grind the early levels with mundane stuff like helping out with dishes, giving a hug, and giving a massage, that somehow makes your mother more willing to engage in sexual situations.
Yea for sure, but it takes two to tango. Your examples make sense to explain the protagonist's motivations, but a lot of games leave out why the other party would agree to any of it. If the daughter has an established elektra complex, and you are playing the father who starts to develop feelings for her, there we go. We got the framework for a believable relationship. If you and your cousin went out for drinks, got hammered and ended up having sex, that can be a triggering event. You can probably name a number of popular games that use the stairway to heaven as the trigger for romance without ever giving a clear motivation for the girl. This goes hand in hand with the points system that makes you grind the early levels with mundane stuff like helping out with dishes, giving a hug, and giving a massage, that somehow makes your mother more willing to engage in sexual situations.
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Unless your cousin is so close to you that the time spent with them is equivalent to the similar time spent with in home siblings, chances are there's no barrier stopping romantic feelings there.
On that note, you can develop an incest block to a completely unrelated family friend who is always in the house.
But other than that, yes, both characters need clear motivations.
- Jul 10, 2018
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To be fair to reality, usually if the female is up for it, the male doesn't resist long. For men sex is lot like their sexual organ - something that happens outside of the self. Their main consideration is merely whether they can get, and maintain, an erection. For females, while horniness is pretty similar, there is an extra level of consideration, as full sex is invasive. They are more aware of social pressures and labels (prick teaser) and the fact that men who are over-excited are sometimes more forcefull and less in control. There are still legal systems that refuse to acknowledge rape of a male is possible unless he is penetrated, since the argument is that if he maintained an erection, he was giving the wrong signals to claim rape...
This all means that as a general psychological principle, men are far more easily convinced and persuaded, and feel less worry over consequences.
I would argue that there is an incest block just by the fact that they are related. Not as strongly as the nuclear family of course, but the biological, psychological, and cultural blocks should be as significant as the developmental block.
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However, again, I'm sure we've all heard of 'The Friend Zone' which is essentially the exact same block applied to non-family members, where the issue is over whether it will spoil the current familiar relationship. The legal issues are rarely so important since it's not like you're regularly having sex in front of the police or officials. Consensual anal sex was illegal in many countries right up until quite recently, and in some of them it's still actually illegal unless they are a gay couple... Doesn't stop anal sex happening as much as simple preferences and discomfort does.
People go against cultural taboo all the time. There are laws on the books in this country against sodomy. Sodomy is, depending on the jurisdiciton, either specifically anal, or anything that isn't missionary sex for the purposes of procreation. Even back to the 2000s anal wasn't nearly what it is today. Nowadays you have attention whores on reddit showing off their new buttplugs to people for nothing more than likes. In the early days of casting couch porn they still had to do convincing to get the girls to try anal.
Homosexuality is another example of one that has only recently been changed. Gay people aren't new, they're as old as humanity. Yet, there's often cycles of cultural taboo preventing them from being out in the open. Terms like 'in the closet' 'fag hag' and 'beard' all exist as euphamisms for things involving hiding your sexuality from the rest of the world while still being allowed to practice it as you see fit.
if the only thing stopping you and your cousin from bumping uglies is something as weak as a social taboo then no, you're not gonna stop once romantic feelings are there.
Similar, but probably a bit different. The developmental block as I understand it is manifested during the formative years of development. Hence, the childhood friend trope is generally a bit stronger than a normal friend zone to get out of.However, again, I'm sure we've all heard of 'The Friend Zone' which is essentially the exact same block applied to non-family members, where the issue is over whether it will spoil the current familiar relationship. The legal issues are rarely so important since it's not like you're regularly having sex in front of the police or officials. Consensual anal sex was illegal in many countries right up until quite recently, and in some of them it's still actually illegal unless they are a gay couple... Doesn't stop anal sex happening as much as simple preferences and discomfort does.
The social/cultural taboo, as I see it is more than the fear of the law. There is also the judgement of their peers and the need to keep it a secret to consider. All blocks can be overcome, and some aspects are easier to overcome than others, but the fact that incest creates a block in many different layers is what makes it such a strong taboo. The strength of the taboo varies between individuals, but on average, the general concensus is probably that first cousins are pretty taboo. If romantic feelings do arise, you've already gotten past the developmental, psychological, and possibly biological blocks, so I agree that social norms probably wont be enough to stop a cousin-cest. Siblings have a much stronger taboo in all aspects of the incest block, so the social/cultural block by itself might be enough to dissuade it.
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- Jul 10, 2018
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As we both said, because it is similarly both illegal and taboo. Suggesting that someone 'takes it up the ass' is always an insult, and generally seen as a more scathing one than 'motherfucker' these days, due to the latter being more commonplace an insult.
Oh you wanker!
Not really, of course. I simply wanted to remind you that pretty much every single individual has to overcome social/cultural taboo as a part of teenage. If somehow you are brought up obedient enough to such pressures to refrain from self pleasure, you'll soon discover wet dreams instead, which are equally awkward and against social normatives, supposedly. Long before you are really even understand enough about the opposite sex to properly fantasize, you've already overcome social taboos and pressure, and been able to (pardon the pun) rise above judgements to go with what you want.
You know the thing of kids 'experimenting'? Well, that's twice as likely to be with a sibling or close relative as with a friend. Especially same-sex experimenting.
Incidentally, rape is another area where, statistically, it is far, far more likely to be committed on a close relative or friend than a stranger.
What I'm saying is that there really is not a strong instinctual block against incest, and never has been. Instead, one was largely deliberately forced by various authorities throughout the ages, and that due to the dangers of inbreeding and the economics of having disabled citizens.
I mean, we all agree on pretty much everything to varying degrees lol.
There has been numerous studies that show the early years of development as the most significant block in forming the urge to procreate with someone in close proximity. As Darth pointed out, non related individuals that grow up together are less likely to form sexual attraction, and siblings separated at birth would have no qualms about it (as long as they don't find out). There is no failsafe DNA sensor or instinct (although certain animals do develop strategies like smell to try and avoid incest) to detect and stop you from incest, but for whatever reason, our brain develops in such a way. Its not tied to authorities or cultural norms about such things when this developmental block is set. Developmental, psychological, biological, cultural blocks and what have you are all closely related in the big picture. We form biological blocks because of our knowledge of genetic defects. Cultural/social blocks get set up to prevent such defects. Psychological blocks are formed in response to all of the above.
In the scenario of siblings unknowingly separated at birth, there would be 0 blocks, but once they realize their relationship, the other blocks will have to be overcome. They would have to accept that they shouldn't bear children. They might have to move to another country if they want to get married. They might have to deal with some scornful judgement from peers. They themselves might develop some psychological issue with the whole thing. Its entirely possible that they might feel like its not worth it to pursue the relationship even though they love each other. Everyone is different in their sexual liberation and conformity to societal norms, so the strength of the incest block in any situation would be a case by case thing.
There has been numerous studies that show the early years of development as the most significant block in forming the urge to procreate with someone in close proximity. As Darth pointed out, non related individuals that grow up together are less likely to form sexual attraction, and siblings separated at birth would have no qualms about it (as long as they don't find out). There is no failsafe DNA sensor or instinct (although certain animals do develop strategies like smell to try and avoid incest) to detect and stop you from incest, but for whatever reason, our brain develops in such a way. Its not tied to authorities or cultural norms about such things when this developmental block is set. Developmental, psychological, biological, cultural blocks and what have you are all closely related in the big picture. We form biological blocks because of our knowledge of genetic defects. Cultural/social blocks get set up to prevent such defects. Psychological blocks are formed in response to all of the above.
In the scenario of siblings unknowingly separated at birth, there would be 0 blocks, but once they realize their relationship, the other blocks will have to be overcome. They would have to accept that they shouldn't bear children. They might have to move to another country if they want to get married. They might have to deal with some scornful judgement from peers. They themselves might develop some psychological issue with the whole thing. Its entirely possible that they might feel like its not worth it to pursue the relationship even though they love each other. Everyone is different in their sexual liberation and conformity to societal norms, so the strength of the incest block in any situation would be a case by case thing.
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- Oct 27, 2018
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Well, you think I'm projecting, I think you need things to be explicitly spelled out for you.
Guess we have to agree to disagree. In any case it's not the place to pick a specific game apart.
Cheers!
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Agreed. But still having the chance to discuss the finer points is enjoyable. It's not the kind of topic one can randomly bring up with a stranger in a pub.
This is the really interesting bit. That proximity is far more important, in all the studies, than pure biology. The best theory at the moment is that the infant is naturally responding to the subconscious approval or disapproval of those interacting with. It's a fact that a child raised in a non-familial environment where affection is inhibited and discouraged will have more repression than one raised in a biologically related group that aren't shamed about touching and affection.
This is the part where we still disagree. I maintain that there is significant evidence that there is no biological block at all. Merely how the other family react to social pressure, and how the child picks up approval and disapproval, shame, etc from positive and negative reinforcement. i.e. there is no biological or psychological mechanism at all for detecting whether someone is, or is not, blood related. Nature assumes that groups are blood related, and psychology causes people to actively seek out partners that look like their 'tribe' more often than not. But when the sibling or parent pulls back, frowns, or gets uncomfortable with certain actions, that the infant/child can detect and learn from. It is all learned social behaviour, no other mechanism in play.