Porn vs Story - The Mix

[Zippity]

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With all that (see spoiler above), now I'll get into the guts of what this thread is supposed to be about... These days there is a lot of varying concerns from most folks on the concept of story vs porn in the industry of amateur erotic/adult visual novels and/or games... Some folks want to get their jollies as quickly as possible and prefer lots of porn based scenes/visuals over the story elements... Some folks like to have a balance of both good story telling and the porn based scenes/visuals... And then there are some folks who prefer more story and less porn based scenes/visuals... It is a hodge-podge of varying desires, needs, wants, hopes, and/or pleasures... And the over all market is filled to the brim with varying quantities and qualities of games, stories, adventures, rpg's, videos, comics, etc... And sometimes arguments ensue between fans of all these things as to what direction/s a given author/developer/producer should go with their product...

What brought a majority of folks to even look for these sorts stories/games is the primal need to find pleasure in something beyond the typical porn industry standard of amateur/professional sex videos and purely sex based short stories... Everyone has their different kinks and/or fantasy fetish's... Which can be played out in a, hopefully safe, setting by immersing themselves in erotic/adult fiction of some sort... This could be in the form of a visual novel, an adventure game, a role-playing game, and the list goes on...

The group of folks who primarily want to get their jollies over with and move on, typically become frustrated when a adult/erotic visual novel/game doesn't get to the porn stuff as quickly as possible... They don't want to sit around through character development, or hear about the protagonists dramatic past, or play through hours of grindy game play, just to get to the sex stuff... They want sexual satisfaction right out the gate, and they want it to keep coming in wave after wave until their jollies have been satisfied and they can walk away feeling pleasured and live their lives... These are usually folks who enjoy porn above all else, and think that most visual novels and games in this genre are or should be just porn... Not unlike the normal porn industry videos and short stories...

Then you have the group of folks who also want to get their jollies but want some substance to their porn, to feel immersed in a fictional fantasy mixed with the occasional sexual encounter... They want to be that protagonist, to live vicariously through them as that character lives through a fictional world involving what ever drama and sexual fantasy that plays out... And if the story is told well, with a good balanced mixture of both believable characters and meaningful prose, then it will make those erotic encounters that more immersing and meaningful... Thereby increasing the pleasure of the erotic encounters, more so then watching some ole porn video... Immersion being key...

And lastly you have the group of folks who want to get their jollies, but it isn't a priority... As long as the story/game is fun to read/play and they feel the characters have believable personalities mixed with an immersive story to read, that the sexual stuff should also make sense when presented through out the story... Not feel thrown in just for the sake of having sexual content overall, but have a part to play in the overall plot, to have meaning... As sometimes, too much sexual content takes away from the story, dilutes it, ruins the immersion of the story itself... By building up to the sex, through a good story, the pleasure of the sexual scenes/visuals will be that much more fulfilling and satisfying when it finally occurs...

Of course, these are not all cut and dry... Some folks may enjoy a healthy mix of the three...

The problems I sometimes see these days, is that some folks are so adamant about their own sexual needs that they feel the whole industry should only follow the path they find most appealing and screw everyone else... These are usually selfish and typically immature readers/players, and it shows sometimes in how they react to a visual novel/game that doesn't meet their needs... They may like a story/game concept based off a description put together by a creator, but when they actually experience the product they become enraged at how it doesn't fulfill their wants and desires, so they lash out angrily... Sometimes trying to pressure said creators into changing their product for mostly selfish reasons... It's not the norm, but it does happen... And I feel sad for those creators having to put up with stuff like that, and we can only hope they don't bow to that type of personality, and stay true to their artistic vision...

Back to the topic at hand... I think the problem with this industry right now comes down to the flood of first time creators trying to make a name for themselves... Maybe they were inspired by the money some of the big hitters make, maybe they were inspired by some products made by other folks, maybe they have always been artists at heart and feel inspired by this industry to focus their artistic expression in this way, maybe they just have a bare bones idea and want to see where they can take it and how far they can take it, and the list goes on... In any case, we have a market flooded with a mix of decent products and not-so decent products, for various reasons... With only a very select few actually making it to completion with a decent level of overall fans and support... A lot of these first timers see folks in forums like these (which represents a very small minority of readers/players) and tend to focus their creations in the direction they perceive as a majority view, but in fact is a minority view... This in turn also adds to the flood of not-so good visual novel/games flooding the market right now... You see it especially in visual novels/games that waver up and down trying to please everyone, rather then sticking to one method and not letting overzealous fans have too much influence over the process...

With all this said, the point I wanted to make mostly was to hopefully be both informative, as well as to hopefully inspire more authors to stick to their guns and focus on a goal... Don't allow your product to change pace to satisfy everyone, because it will just ruin the experience for more folks then you plan to satisfy... Either stay story focused, or stay balanced, or stay porn focused... Just stay true to your original vision, and be consistent... You can't please everyone, and everyone can't expect you to please everyone... Yes, not everyone will like your product, because everyone is different... And different is good...

 

[DarthSeduction]

While I get what you're saying, there is an argument to be made that the group that "just wants to get off" and the group who wants a balance of "getting off and having an immersive story" are the same. As you said, we all came to adult games to scratch an itch that straight up porn can't satisfy. That itch is immersion. I'll point to both of my favorite games as proof of this, I Love Daddy, and Coceter Chronicles.

I Love Daddy has 2 masturbation scenes and a blowjob in its first 10 minutes. There might even be a lesbian scene or two thrown in there for good measure. From there the sex only gets more intense and more crazy. However, the game has a plot, has characters with depth, and allows you to be immersed while also getting your jollies off with this girl who has the hots for her dad.

Coceter Chronicles spends the first half hour of its runtime letting you fuck the princess, her brother, a tainted fairy hybrid, yourself like 4 times minimum, and several peaking, and masturbation scenes involving other characters. At the same time it sets up a plausible High fantasy universe in a way that even blockbuster movies have a hard time doing.

You're not going to find a person who "just wants to fap" complaining that there isn't enough sex often enough in either of these games. There's virtually no grind. And while Coceter does have a stats system, you can turn it off.

I could go on to list game after game after game that also have plausible stories and a marathon of sex. But that would be a waste of both our times. What I'm really here to talk about is how the "I just want to get off" argument doesn't preclude a story. Any game that doesn't have a story is lazily made and deserves to be called out for it. The developers might be putting their heart and soul into the art to make the sex interesting to watch, Faerin, Dark Silver, Mr. Dots, but then they can't write characters with any depth or commit to a story with any actual narrative.

I'm not saying you can't find the sex hot, but I am saying that the games are subjectively inferior based on their lack of story. And I can say that confidently because I can pair them with a game of a similar model that subverts their issues.

DmD could be beaten by both Parental Love and My Sweet Neighbors

BB and MotH are beaten by View of Family, Dreaming of Dana, Chloe18

All these games have equal or greater levels of sex to the games I'm pitting them against, but they have plausible premises, characters with depth, and story arcs that come to a satisfying conclusion.

If you just wanna get off and don't care about a story, why are you playing a game at all? Just rip the CG sets, or go to Reddit and find a CG porn sub.

And that's the thing. I don't believe people are playing these games without the desire to see a story.

As for the people who like a slow drag, something that takes some time to build up to its action, I don't think that people who are in the middle are opposed to these games existing. I'm certainly not. I enjoy games like Dual Family in spite of its slow burn. If I don't want to play that game, I simply don't want to play it, but I don't have a critical issue with the game itself. That is the major difference. From a critical point of view, you can say that a game without a story is objectively inferior. However you can't, from that same critical stance call Dual Family inferior, because your only complaint is that it doesn't have gratuitous sex.

 

[Zippity]

While I get what you're saying, there is an argument to be made that the group that "just wants to get off" and the group who wants a balance of "getting off and having an immersive story" are the same.

Not really, there are a lot of folks out there who have voiced their opinions on numerous occasions, that they just want the sex stuff as much as possible and don't like to do a lot of reading at all before getting to it and continuing to get it... So technically there are a lot of folks out there who don't want the story stuff much if at all, they just want a bunch of sexual encounters, back to back... You also see it in some games such as sex simulators, they have no story, just sex... Or when you look at some grind games where there is very little actual story, you just repeat stuff till more porn presents itself... It has no balance, it is just lots of sex, no lead in, no character development, no real immersion, just lots of various sexual type encounters... People who want just that could care less about story... So they fall into a different category then those who want a balance of story with their sex...

Of course, as I mentioned, you will have some folks who like a mix, maybe depending on mood, maybe depending on lots of factors... But that doesn't make the first two sects I described the same at all... Remember, I'm not just talking purely about visual novels, but all erotic/adult games in general... And not all games of this genre have stories or plots or sometimes they don't even have text, yet they are still games...

Yes, of course you begin to wonder, then why the hell are they playing/reading erotic/adult games with story elements at all if they just want to get their jollies? Maybe it's for the variety, or perhaps again they like a mix, or perhaps they just need a reason for the sex to be happening but don't want to read that much to get to it... Even the smallest amount of story may satisfy their need...

Having story at all doesn't make it balanced, having an equal amount of both means balance... So the three are still separate...

Me personally, I like a balance of both the story and erotic content... I like to feel immersion, to feel some semblance of relatability with the protagonist as the story progresses... To feel drawn in, as though the choices I make matter and helps push the story in a direction I enjoy... And if that experience begins to feel jaded and out of balance, then perhaps I no longer will enjoy it or feel it is no longer something I can be emotionally and/or intellectually involved with reading/playing... It's the inconsistency that typically irks me the most when reading an erotic/adult visual novel or playing/reading an erotic/adult themed game...

 

[DarthSeduction]

Not really, there are a lot of folks out there who have voiced their opinions on numerous occasions, that they just want the sex stuff as much as possible and don't like to do a lot of reading at all before getting to it and continuing to get it... So technically there are a lot of folks out there who don't want the story stuff much if at all, they just want a bunch of sexual encounters, back to back... You also see it in some games such as sex simulators, they have no story, just sex... Or when you look at some grind games where there is very little actual story, you just repeat stuff till more porn presents itself... It has no balance, it is just lots of sex, no lead in, no character development, no real immersion, just lots of various sexual type encounters... People who want just that could care less about story... So they fall into a different category then those who want a balance of story with their sex...

Of course, as I mentioned, you will have some folks who like a mix, maybe depending on mood, maybe depending on lots of factors... But that doesn't make the first two sects I described the same at all...

Sex simulators are a whole different ball game and not generally the topic of discussion in this topic. However, I don't agree that people exist who actually prefer the games that are just grind and fuck. In fact, even when talking to die hard fans of games like BB and MotH their biggest complaint is the grind. What everyone refuses to see is why the grind exists. The developer needs a reason for his two characters to suddenly fuck. So he makes you repeat a few tasks that would add affection so that when he makes them fuck it makes sense that you earned it. Essentially White Knighting the MC.

I guarantee you that if you made any fan of MotH play View of Family they'd love the game just as much if not more than MotH. It's simply better written so there's less grind, and just as much sex. You see, the people who make the argument that they don't want a story are misunderstanding what we mean when we say a story. With a life sim like that, you don't need much. You simply need to introduce the characters to us in a way that makes us want to interact with them. This might be what View of Family does best. It starts with the older of your two little sisters waking you up from a dream involving her sexually and teasing you a bit. Then you and she go to the store together and she is forced to sit in your lap on the bus, which leads to her cumming on your crotch if I remember correctly. When you meet your mother it's not a line of narration, but the flow of the game that introduces her. When you meet Mia she makes a snarky comment about how you've spent so much time with the other sister recently that you've forgotten her. We aren't talking about walls of text here. It's the same amount of dialogue as MotH, only its well written to serve the story rather than bland and boring.

Not everyone is going to appreciate a VN. They are definitely more on the heavy side of reading before sex. But there are at least half a dozen life sims, or VN that behave like life sims, that manage to provide instant gratification and minimal dialogue or exposition while immersing you in the characters. Dreaming of Dana has your secretary sucking and fucking you within a second of meeting her. Sisterly Lust has you fucking both of your little sisters friends, one each day for the 4 days of runtime the game currently has. Dreams of Desire has a bit more exposition, but also has plenty of sexual content fast. Family Values has you fucking one of your daughters vaginally by day two, has you fondling another on the train to work the first morning, which leads the slut mastubating on the bus to get you off.

Literally there are games with good character and world design that aren't full of exposition and reading like you might associate with the words "Story based". The argument that someone would rather play a grind fest like MotH with no reason to get involved other than the sex than a game with exactly the same amount of sex, virtually no grind, and a reason to want to fuck the cahracters beyond "they're hot" is simply bullshit. Anyone who propogates it is lying to themselves over some variation of sunk cost fallacy.

 

[Zippity]

Sex simulators are a whole different ball game and not generally the topic of discussion in this topic. However, I don't agree that people exist who actually prefer the games that are just grind and fuck. In fact, even when talking to die hard fans of games like BB and MotH their biggest complaint is the grind. What everyone refuses to see is why the grind exists. The developer needs a reason for his two characters to suddenly fuck. So he makes you repeat a few tasks that would add affection so that when he makes them fuck it makes sense that you earned it. Essentially White Knighting the MC.

I guarantee you that if you made any fan of MotH play View of Family they'd love the game just as much if not more than MotH. It's simply better written so there's less grind, and just as much sex. You see, the people who make the argument that they don't want a story are misunderstanding what we mean when we say a story. With a life sim like that, you don't need much. You simply need to introduce the characters to us in a way that makes us want to interact with them. This might be what View of Family does best. It starts with the older of your two little sisters waking you up from a dream involving her sexually and teasing you a bit. Then you and she go to the store together and she is forced to sit in your lap on the bus, which leads to her cumming on your crotch if I remember correctly. When you meet your mother it's not a line of narration, but the flow of the game that introduces her. When you meet Mia she makes a snarky comment about how you've spent so much time with the other sister recently that you've forgotten her. We aren't talking about walls of text here. It's the same amount of dialogue as MotH, only its well written to serve the story rather than bland and boring.

Not everyone is going to appreciate a VN. They are definitely more on the heavy side of reading before sex. But there are at least half a dozen life sims, or VN that behave like life sims, that manage to provide instant gratification and minimal dialogue or exposition while immersing you in the characters. Dreaming of Dana has your secretary sucking and fucking you within a second of meeting her. Sisterly Lust has you fucking both of your little sisters friends, one each day for the 4 days of runtime the game currently has. Dreams of Desire has a bit more exposition, but also has plenty of sexual content fast. Family Values has you fucking one of your daughters vaginally by day two, has you fondling another on the train to work the first morning, which leads the slut mastubating on the bus to get you off.

Literally there are games with good character and world design that aren't full of exposition and reading like you might associate with the words "Story based". The argument that someone would rather play a grind fest like MotH with no reason to get involved other than the sex than a game with exactly the same amount of sex, virtually no grind, and a reason to want to fuck the cahracters beyond "they're hot" is simply bullshit. Anyone who propogates it is lying to themselves over some variation of sunk cost fallacy.

Go look at some of the games that you claim are just grind and f***, and look at what some of those players say about them... You can't proclaim that people don't exist that could like those games, because that isn't true... There are... However misguided you may feel they may be, it doesn't make the fact any less true that people exist who just want that... You may not want to believe it, but that also doesn't make it less true...

Remember, the whole subject of this thread does not purely revolve around just story based erotica... It's Porn versus Story and/or a mix of the two... The whole point of my original post when starting this thread was to shed light on how different peoples tastes are, how varied the industry is, how unbelievably complex the fan base for any erotic themed game or visual novel can be... And how messed up the industry is with both failing to be consistent when making their projects, as well as trends of the market to cater to an inconsistent fan base rather then making a focused and unique product... I hope that makes sense...

 

[DarthSeduction]

Go look at some of the games that you claim are just grind and f***, and look at what some of those players say about them... You can't proclaim that people don't exist that could like those games, because that isn't true... There are... However misguided you may feel they may be, it doesn't make the fact any less true that people exist who just want that... You may not want to believe it, but that also doesn't make it less true...

Remember, the whole subject of this thread does not purely revolve around just story based erotica... It's Porn versus Story and/or a mix of the two... The whole point of my original post when starting this thread was to shed light on how different peoples tastes are, how varied the industry is, how unbelievably complex the fan base for any erotic themed game or visual novel can be... And how messed up the industry is with both failing to be consistent when making their projects, as well as trends of the market to cater to an inconsistent fan base rather then making a focused and unique product... I hope that makes sense...

You're ignoring what I just said about Sunk Cost Fallacy. Its a real psychological phenomena. Its what makes people keep gambling, its why people get suckered into mobile games, its why we spend money on lootboxes for AAA titles, and it's why BB and MotH keep their fans. I have spoken to them, there's a a very heated and lengthy discussion in the thread about why MotH is soo popular wherein all of them acknowledge and bemoan the games grind. As I said Grind is the result of a lack of quality storytelling. If the dev had been able to write a plausible reason for the characters to fuck, they'd have fucked and there'd be no grind. One of the people in the discussion I was having did tell me in a completely seperate thread that he had played VoF on my reccomendation and did agree that it was better than MotH which he'd said that he liked for the fact that it just let him have sex.

The people who are saying they prefer just sex do not know what they're saying. They do not understand story doesn't mean a long winded explanation and verbose dialogue or a slow grind. They think that when we say story we are talking about Dual Family or honestly even Dating my Daughter, which to them is a drag. There are plenty of life stims, a game type that gets straight to the fucking, that have quality writing. Those games are objectively superior to MotH and their fans would agree if they were asked to play both in a non confrontational setting.

Again I'm not recommending games that have less sex, these games often have just as much sex, and sometimes get to the actual penetration faster, because the dev doesn't need to hide progression behind grind and can actually use the "stairway to heaven" in 2 to 3 encounters, rather than requiring several different steps to get the character more and more broken down and willing to have sex. That's the other benefit of quality writing. Your female characters aren't dead fish. They are proactive in their sexual relations and therefore work with you, instead of against you in getting their pants off.

 

[Ataios]

I also think that there is a huge differnece between story and grind. I don't think that many people like to grind in porn game or even any game at all. Playing the same mini game every 10 minutes to raise an NPC's corruption score is just not fun or sexy.

On the other hand, a good story can basically be the porn game equivalent to a good foreplay. When the story builds up the tension beween the chracters that can still arouse the player, though it may not contain intercourse or even nudity. In Milf's Tale there are a lot of scenes that don't contain any sex, but extremely hot nonetheless, because of the feelings attached to them and described with them.

 

[FishboneGamingLabs]

A big part of the negative feedback following the release of our game was about grinding and lack of adult content. The adult content was released later, but still got basically the same negative feedback, it seems that players don't want to walk, don't want to do any quests, don't want to read anything on the screen. They want just to see adult content.

We got plenty of silly questions and testimonials like "this quest is not working at all", or "I don't know what to do next", etc. But everything was explained in dialogues before, but they skipped through it without reading and without understanding what they must do.

So, first rule we got from here... Adult content must be delivered quickly, to maintain the interest of the players. It now makes sense why many games starts with the MC waking up dreaming about some sort of sexual interaction or has a morning blowjob or at least a voyeur/spy/peak event.

 

[The-real-Vastitas]

So, first rule we got from here... Adult content must be delivered quickly, to maintain the interest of the players.

Which excludes the group that is interested in a slow believable build up...and actually reads what you write...isn't it a joy:coldsweat:
Different games for different taste...if you don't feel like it do not let yourself get pressured into something by a group that might not even be the biggest but the loudest. A balance between

story based erotica

and porn in my humble opinion does not really exist...one always suffers in favor of the other...what I mean is...too much porn too early can kill a story and looking at what's written I think the porn factor is stronger than should be at least for games which strive to inspire more than a half baked boner...lines like "My boy has a hard on? Oh let Mommy help cause I don't have time to explain why I feel like incest is the most natural thing in the whole wide world" are simply put not enough content to call it a story at all...
Seriously the fact that I haven't encountered a game created yet that uses the trope thread in order to create a over the top parody of existing

"just wants to fap"

games baffles me a bit now come to think of it...

 

[DarthSeduction]

I'd like to ask people who still think that Story is against the idea of providing porn to take a look at MIlfy City. Seriously. I've critiqued games in the genre of life sim all over the place. I've critiqued dev's for their inability to write compelling female characters. Milfy City is still in a .1 has several sex scenes, no real grind, and has female characters who want to fuck the MC.

Already its better than Big Brother and MotH. I'm not even talking about it's art quality or the amazing animateions. I'm simply talking about story and character progression. If you honestly play Milfy City and don't come away satisfied, then you simply aren't into some aspect of the game, for instance incest or playing a boyish protagonist. The game absolutely shows a believable progression, encourages the player to keep playing, and is fun while also being erotic.

 

[Zippity]

A big part of the negative feedback following the release of our game was about grinding and lack of adult content. The adult content was released later, but still got basically the same negative feedback, it seems that players don't want to walk, don't want to do any quests, don't want to read anything on the screen. They want just to see adult content.

We got plenty of silly questions and testimonials like "this quest is not working at all", or "I don't know what to do next", etc. But everything was explained in dialogues before, but they skipped through it without reading and without understanding what they must do.

So, first rule we got from here... Adult content must be delivered quickly, to maintain the interest of the players. It now makes sense why many games starts with the MC waking up dreaming about some sort of sexual interaction or has a morning blowjob or at least a voyeur/spy/peak event.

The problem you'll run into sometimes with forum sites like these, is that you only get the opinions of a very small section of overall fans and/or players/readers... Most folks who play and/or read these things never post their opinions or speak up on sites like these... So you're going to get a skewed overall view of what folks really want...

An adult/erotic visual novel as supposed to a adult/erotic game, are supposed to be based more on story... Why else call it a Visual "Novel"... The visuals are there to support the story... If all you want to make is masturbation material without regard to meaningful and/or deep story telling, then you might as well just make a porn game and be done with it... You will always have some folks who are scouring the web for stuff to quickly masturbate to, and why they think Visual Novels are the way to go is beyond me... And when they can't get it on as quickly as possible, they just childishly complain, because they are either too lazy and/or unwilling to put up with any form of story before they get to the sexual visuals in order to get their jollies on... But visual novels, even if just by name alone, should be story driven erotica... Because by immersing ones self into a meaningful and deep story that leads into sexual content of one form or another, the sexual content itself becomes more immersive and meaningful and fulfilling... If all that happens is a few quick words followed by back to back erotic scenes, then all the thing has become is typical porn, one amongst millions... Rather then sticking out and meaning more to more folks... And just because folks who enjoy story along with their porn don't speak up as much as the pure porn lovers, don't dismiss that story is superfluous to erotic visuals...

Just look at some of the big hitters, how many of them went mostly porn visuals over story... Barely any... Most tend to have plenty of story along with the supporting erotic visuals/scenes...

 

[Zippity]

I'd like to ask people who still think that Story is against the idea of providing porn to take a look at MIlfy City. Seriously. I've critiqued games in the genre of life sim all over the place. I've critiqued dev's for their inability to write compelling female characters. Milfy City is still in a .1 has several sex scenes, no real grind, and has female characters who want to fuck the MC.

Already its better than Big Brother and MotH. I'm not even talking about it's art quality or the amazing animateions. I'm simply talking about story and character progression. If you honestly play Milfy City and don't come away satisfied, then you simply aren't into some aspect of the game, for instance incest or playing a boyish protagonist. The game absolutely shows a believable progression, encourages the player to keep playing, and is fun while also being erotic.

It's good to have a balance of visual novel and/or game styles available... You will have games more heavy towards story, some that swing more porn, and some with some form of balance...

In the particular case of Milfy City, it leans a bit more towards the erotica, but not so far that it becomes pure porn... Balance doesn't always need to be a 50/50 deal, it can lean slightly one way or another, as long as it's overall entertaining to a larger group of players/readers... This particular games claim to fame is definitely it's superior visuals overall... And obviously, you will also run into games that don't necessarily root themselves deeply in realism, but you have to have at least some measure of realism here and there to make the story elements more relatable and immersive... This particular game has a mix of some realism, mixed with some prior used themes, along with other elements... It's again, a balancing act, sway too far one way or another and you risk alienating the larger audience over making a minority happier... Yes, this game has it's flaws, but there is never a perfect game... But it does attempt, so far, to cater to a larger majority with a mix of this and that... We'll have to see how it grows over the long haul... But remember, Milfy City is not trying to be a Visual Novel... More so it's a story inclusive game, which puts it in another ball park, when considering story vs porn...

 

[DarthSeduction]

It's good to have a balance of visual novel and/or game styles available... You will have games more heavy towards story, some that swing more porn, and some with some form of balance...

In the particular case of Milfy City, it leans a bit more towards the erotica, but not so far that it becomes pure porn... Balance doesn't always need to be a 50/50 deal, it can lean slightly one way or another, as long as it's overall entertaining to a larger group of players/readers... This particular games claim to fame is definitely it's superior visuals overall... And obviously, you will also run into games that don't necessarily root themselves deeply in realism, but you have to have at least some measure of realism here and there to make the story elements more relatable and immersive... This particular game has a mix of some realism, mixed with some prior used themes, along with other elements... It's again, a balancing act, sway too far one way or another and you risk alienating the larger audience over making a minority happier... Yes, this game has it's flaws, but there is never a perfect game... But it does attempt, so far, to cater to a larger majority with a mix of this and that... We'll have to see how it grows over the long haul... But remember, Milfy City is not trying to be a Visual Novel... More so it's a story inclusive game, which puts it in another ball park, when considering story vs porn...

You're still not understanding the point I'm making. Or I'm not understanding you. One or the other. You keep pitting story against porn, as if they are mutually exclusive and you have to give up some of one to gain the other. That's not the case. I've stated multiple times and given detailed examples of games with great storytelling that are as if not more pornographic than others in their wheelhouse. So, unless we are talking about sex sims or something where there is no content at all beyond a character getting naked and being fucked, then you cannot separate porn from story the way you are trying to do.

Now, there are games that are more erotic novel than pron game, games like Dating my Daughter or Blooming Love, have a very romance story plot and very little sexual content. However, those games are using sex to serve their story, not their story to serve sex. And that is the goal. If they were telling a story that needed more sex, they'd provide it. At no point did I call Milfy City a VN. It is very clearly a life sim. And that in fact makes it all the more relevant to this discussion that it has chosen to focus its progression on story over grind.

The life sim genre has a lot of entries in it, some are very different from the others, like Chloe18, but most, because of the popularity of incest, follow the same structure as Milfy City has used here. You play as the son who is the middle child of a lonely or dissatisfied mother, with a hot older sister, and an, up to this point, chaste little sister. View of Family, Man of the House, Big Brother, Dreams of Desire (more of a pseudo life sim), and countless others I could list off.

What makes Milfy City unique among them thus far is the progression. It is almost entirely event based. At no point are you grinding for attention, the little bit of grind that does exist is around a very easy to earn money system. In a few days of playing Paper Rock Scissors, I had enough money to buy every item at both the shop and the sex shop. However, from the very beginning this game makes its sexual theme possible in a grounded story based way. They have taken the time to write the female characters in the story to have their own thoughts and motivations for wanting to be with you. This is most refreshing in the mother.

Man of the House, Big Brother, The Artifact, Incest Adventure, and Dreams of Desire, all feature a mother who is a romance option. The one thing all of them have in common is, they don't see their son sexually until after he pressures them into sex. Summertime Saga and View of Family are the only ones I can think of where the mother is willing. However even in both of those, the mother still needs to be convinced. In this way, it pits these characters against the protagonist, making them the antagonist. As a result, the gameplay is centered around convincing them to fuck you. This is where the grind comes from.

In Milfy City, we finally have a mother who feels for her son on her own accord, and for whom holding back is not something she wants to do. As a result we don't have to trick or convince her to do anything, we simply have to be there and interact with her. Obviously we have to say the right things, but that should be expected, we are playing a game, not reading a kinetic novel. As a result, even in a .1 state, there are no less than 3 physical sex acts between you and your mother to perform.

Both the little and big sister are written well also. The big sister is reluctant, she doesn't think she feels for her brother that way, but its becoming clear that she is conflicted, that she enjoys knowing he feels attracted to her, that she enjoyed helping him get off. The little sister, similar to the mother, has an actual crush on you, her big brother. Its clear she doesn't get much attention from guys, being such a good student and a total geek. As a result she's taken a liking to the only guy who is in her life, and who does make her feel special, her older brother. Again you get lots of sexual time with her, as she's got a "sneak in and molest" option as well as the willing blowjob she gives you.

You claim that you see this as more of an erotic story than porn, I have to ask what criteria you define porn by. Every game I've mentioned in this post is by the legal definition, hardcore porn. You could not put these images into a show on HBO. They are too graphic. So by that definition, its all porn. However, I will allow that certain stories have less sex and use it as a romantic tool for a romantic story. That's fine, but removing them from the discussion we have actual story based games, where there is at least one hardcore scene every 10 minutes. I don't know how you can say that this isn't the standard by which we should define porn. Again, unless you're talking about pure sex sims where there's nothing but pick a sprite and fuck it, then this is porn, and it shows that the existence of story does not cause porn to be diminished.

 

[Zippity]

You're still not understanding the point I'm making. Or I'm not understanding you. One or the other. You keep pitting story against porn, as if they are mutually exclusive and you have to give up some of one to gain the other. That's not the case. I've stated multiple times and given detailed examples of games with great storytelling that are as if not more pornographic than others in their wheelhouse. So, unless we are talking about sex sims or something where there is no content at all beyond a character getting naked and being fucked, then you cannot separate porn from story the way you are trying to do.

Now, there are games that are more erotic novel than pron game, games like Dating my Daughter or Blooming Love, have a very romance story plot and very little sexual content. However, those games are using sex to serve their story, not their story to serve sex. And that is the goal. If they were telling a story that needed more sex, they'd provide it. At no point did I call Milfy City a VN. It is very clearly a life sim. And that in fact makes it all the more relevant to this discussion that it has chosen to focus its progression on story over grind.

The life sim genre has a lot of entries in it, some are very different from the others, like Chloe18, but most, because of the popularity of incest, follow the same structure as Milfy City has used here. You play as the son who is the middle child of a lonely or dissatisfied mother, with a hot older sister, and an, up to this point, chaste little sister. View of Family, Man of the House, Big Brother, Dreams of Desire (more of a pseudo life sim), and countless others I could list off.

What makes Milfy City unique among them thus far is the progression. It is almost entirely event based. At no point are you grinding for attention, the little bit of grind that does exist is around a very easy to earn money system. In a few days of playing Paper Rock Scissors, I had enough money to buy every item at both the shop and the sex shop. However, from the very beginning this game makes its sexual theme possible in a grounded story based way. They have taken the time to write the female characters in the story to have their own thoughts and motivations for wanting to be with you. This is most refreshing in the mother.

Man of the House, Big Brother, The Artifact, Incest Adventure, and Dreams of Desire, all feature a mother who is a romance option. The one thing all of them have in common is, they don't see their son sexually until after he pressures them into sex. Summertime Saga and View of Family are the only ones I can think of where the mother is willing. However even in both of those, the mother still needs to be convinced. In this way, it pits these characters against the protagonist, making them the antagonist. As a result, the gameplay is centered around convincing them to fuck you. This is where the grind comes from.

In Milfy City, we finally have a mother who feels for her son on her own accord, and for whom holding back is not something she wants to do. As a result we don't have to trick or convince her to do anything, we simply have to be there and interact with her. Obviously we have to say the right things, but that should be expected, we are playing a game, not reading a kinetic novel. As a result, even in a .1 state, there are no less than 3 physical sex acts between you and your mother to perform.

Both the little and big sister are written well also. The big sister is reluctant, she doesn't think she feels for her brother that way, but its becoming clear that she is conflicted, that she enjoys knowing he feels attracted to her, that she enjoyed helping him get off. The little sister, similar to the mother, has an actual crush on you, her big brother. Its clear she doesn't get much attention from guys, being such a good student and a total geek. As a result she's taken a liking to the only guy who is in her life, and who does make her feel special, her older brother. Again you get lots of sexual time with her, as she's got a "sneak in and molest" option as well as the willing blowjob she gives you.

You claim that you see this as more of an erotic story than porn, I have to ask what criteria you define porn by. Every game I've mentioned in this post is by the legal definition, hardcore porn. You could not put these images into a show on HBO. They are too graphic. So by that definition, its all porn. However, I will allow that certain stories have less sex and use it as a romantic tool for a romantic story. That's fine, but removing them from the discussion we have actual story based games, where there is at least one hardcore scene every 10 minutes. I don't know how you can say that this isn't the standard by which we should define porn. Again, unless you're talking about pure sex sims where there's nothing but pick a sprite and fuck it, then this is porn, and it shows that the existence of story does not cause porn to be diminished.

Must be a miscommunication then, because I wasn't putting down Milf City... As to what defines

You must be registered to see the links

... The sexual/erotic scenes both visual and text...

I perfectly get what you're saying, so no need to be upset...

The point of this thread was to stimulate discussion over what folks think about the balance of Porn versus Story in any given erotic/adult themed visual novel and/or game... Different folks have different views on what direction the pendulum should swing, and there are even folks who like the pendulum to stay close to center and not swing at all... That is the premise for this thread, to get different takes on that particular subject... I hope that all makes sense...

 

[DarthSeduction]

Must be a miscommunication then, because I wasn't putting down Milf City... As to what defines

You must be registered to see the links

... The sexual/erotic scenes both visual and text...

I perfectly get what you're saying, so no need to be upset...

The point of this thread was to stimulate discussion over what folks think about the balance of Porn versus Story in any given erotic/adult themed visual novel and/or game... Different folks have different views on what direction the pendulum should swing, and there are even folks who like the pendulum to stay close to center and not swing at all... That is the premise for this thread, to get different takes on that particular subject... I hope that all makes sense...

I'm not upset in a fashion of being angry with you, understand, I'm upset because we are doing a dance around which neither of us is getting through. Once again in this response you've separated porn and story. You've placed them on opposite ends of a pendulum. What I've been saying all along is that they aren't on opposing ends.

Before I move forward, there are games in existence that do not require a story. These games usually are purely mechanical. They range from games like the most recent Hitman, where the game is all about finding a clever way to kill your targets with no story whatsoever, to games like Call of Duty, where the point is competition. These are all well and good. In Porn, these exist in dress up games, sex sims, and the like. However, I assume for the sake of this discussion that those aren't the topic, because they have no story in the first place.

Every other game has a story, I don't care what your mechanics are, or what your plot is, it has a story. The question is, how is the story executed to serve the plot. If the plot is "you live in a house with 3 beautiful family members who you want to fuck" then you have a plot that lends itself to lots of different sex. If your plot is "father and daughter are reunited after a decade and romantic feelings arise" the amount of sex you're going to have is limited, unless you inject more in with 2 dimensional characters.

Either one, however, should have a story, in fact, the one where you live in a house with 3 girls, probably needs 4 stories, one story for each girl, and the overarching story that each of them ties into. You can not simply remove story from the equation to create more sex, nor do you remove sex from a story to create a better story. Instead you write a story that serves the plot.

A great way to illustrate this is to compare Dating my Daughter to Parental Love. On the surface they have almost identical plots, however there is one major change to the plot of Parental Love that is missing from DmD. That is the fact that your wife, a second daughter, and your sister are involved. So, the plot of Parental Love naturally has more sex than DmD, and none of these other sexual partners are shoehorned in for erotic relief like Elena or the Secretary are in DmD.

As a result, Parental Love's story involves more sex than Dating my Daughter's does all with what is essentially the same mechanic and basic idea. Whats more, Parental Love has better writing than DmD. Each of the characters has their own motivation and group of strong character traits that they adhere to. D, especially in the beginning, is a very inconsistent character. Your eldest daughter in PL however, is a pretty consistent one. She is shy and insecure, almost to a fault, and that insecurity makes her all the more eager not to fail at being your girlfriend. She is obviously inexperienced but eager to please for your approval, something she would definitely seek, as you haven't been in her life for 16 years.

The story in Parental Love, when explained as a plot summary, is the same, however when applied in game has more sex and more character development in 5 releases than DmD had in all of chapter 1. Seriously, you're at blowjob #2 by the end of the most recent release, DmD didn't reach blowjob territory until the end of its most recent release.

Story does not preclude pron. Your entire discussion is hinged on this concept that its one or the other, that to have more of one, you need more of the other. This is a logical fallacy. That is what I've been trying to help you understand from the start. There is no conflict between porn and story.