Question about incest, Renpy & Patreon

[alexander3rd]

So I'm trying to figure out how to go about this. There's a game I'm writing, that will have 3 main characters - Luke, Lucy & Lucy's twin sister Suzy. Not worried about the twin sisters part, as they can be separated and the main protagonist will be able to have fun with both, without worrying about patreon guidelines (I hope). But Luke & Lucy are either siblings, or roommates. The main idea of course is to write them as siblings, since there's a backstory about their parents too. Players will have an input field to define who Lucy will be to them. if written 'sis' or 'sister', I'll want certain parts of the script to adapt accordingly. Now the question is - can I include those parts of the script inside the game and put that up on patreon? Or do I have to make a separate patch for users to add later?

 

[repuindy]

The safer way is the patch on Lewd Patcher but it means more work for you for readapt the part about their parents, damn patreonensive:

 

[Avaron1974]

You want to keep your game entirely incest free but in a way that can be patched easily without altering the story.

I know games have added a way to let the player dictate the relationships between characters at the start of a new game and so far Patreon has left those alone but it is treading on thin ice.

You have to remember Patreon isn't actively looking through games at the content alone, that's also being done by players and if it pisses someone off then they will report it.

As long as everything you do is by Patreons guidelines NOT THE PEOPLE HERE then your arse is covered.

By that I mean don't take our advice, we aren't Patreon and there are people here that would tell you to put incest in regardless of what would happen to your game, consequences be damned.

What is said here won't keep your game off their radar, that will only be done by following their own rules and maybe bending one or two as long as it doesn't draw too much attention. At the end of the day it's your game, your project and your money. If you trust people here enough with that then go ahead but personally i'd just stick with Patreons rules, less chance of anything going wrong.

 

[alexander3rd]

So, no sign of incest in the patreon release, got it. I'll check the guidelines, just hoping that having an affair with two twin sisters isn't 'incest' for them, as long as they don't have anything between each other.
In my case, then it just means more writing, unless I'll figure out a way to just replace a relationship, while keeping the story intact - but I don't really want to do that. Personally for me, any game that just changes a relationship from 'roommate' to 'sister' without altering the story between them, might as well leave any incest out of it - I don't find it interesting in that case.

 

[Avaron1974]

just hoping that having an affair with two twin sisters isn't 'incest' for them, as long as they don't have anything between each other.

I can't see that causing a problem. The thing there is while incest is illegal in some places it is not unheard of for twins to sleep with the same person, sometimes at the same time.

 

[alexander3rd]

I can't see that causing a problem. The thing there is while incest is illegal in some places it is not unheard of for twins to sleep with the same person, sometimes at the same time.

It's all just blurred. Take Summertime Saga for an example, the dev gets away with everything, while having one of the most successful VNs out there. Can't help but wonder, if it's the success that keeps him covered. Probably it's the same thing as on Twitch streams - there are tons of people who break the guidelines, but the administration is selective on who gets punished and who doesn't. In any case, better safe than sorry.

 

[79flavors]

I would try to avoid the player typing in the relationship status between the MC and any other of the characters.

It'll always lead to some really odd things going on with the way you need to structure sentences.
And even if you get the sentences perfect, there's still the odd things can happen with character motivations.
Mothers aren't the same as landladies. Sisters aren't the same as roommates.

The example I've seen in the past was something like "I can't kiss you... you're my roommate."
Wut?!!?! It makes no sense... of course you could.

Plus what if the player chooses "dog walker" or "teaching assistant" or "boss's daughter" instead of "sister" or "roommate"? Do all your sentences still make sense? Does your story?

From what little I've seen, Pateron only do basic checks automatically. So be just be careful about the wording you use on your Patreon page. Even include the (completely ignored) "everyone is 18 or over and not blood related and blah, blah" type disclaimer on your page. If only for appearance sake. If someone actually reports your game... then maybe they look closer.

There was a discussion [

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] about writing things so you can have a "safe" version to publish on Patreon, that is easily patched to include content like incest and such as part of the same game.

My preferred solution is to include code that checks if a file exists. If it does... you get the incest version. If it doesn't... you don't. Obviously the Patreon version is shipped without that file.
Then at the top of your code, you have something that does something like:

   if renpy.loadable("taboo_patch.rpy"):
       $ patched_game = True
       $ she_calls_me = "brother"
       $ i_call_her = "sister"
   else:
       $ patched_game = False
       $ she_calls_me = "roomie"
       $ i_call_her = "roommate"

Don't take that example too literally... there are much better ways to write it.

Then throughout your game, use the [she_calls_me] and [i_call_her] variables where ever possible.
And for those occasions where just swapping words like sister/roommate won't work... do this instead...

    if patched_game == True:
        emma "Sentence that includes incest talk."
    else:
        emma "Sentence that still makes sense, but is Pateron friendly."

If you do go down this route... I would recommend reading the

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, that includes much better code examples for this sort of thing.

As with any project... Keep it simple and write code you're comfortable with.
Sometimes it's a lot easier to write an incest game and hope Patreon don't notice - than it is to write complicated code that gives you a headache every time you open up the editor.

 

[Lunas]

There is an option other than patreon...

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[HiEv]

There is an option other than patreon...

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No,

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:

The following content and activities are prohibited on Drip:
...
Pornographic material.

That said, hopefully

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is opening soon, and they have specifically said that

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content.

 

[Avaron1974]

There is an option other than patreon...

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I somehow don't think putting a porn game on a site that doesn't allow porn at all is an option.

I've seen a lot of people come up with patreon alternatives on various different sites but that's the worst idea i've seen. At least the others allowed porn albeit watered down.

 

[Lunas]

No,

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:

That said, hopefully

You must be registered to see the links

is opening soon, and they have specifically said that

You must be registered to see the links

content.

Bah then that wasn't the one I remembered last time I read somthing like this I could not find that with a quick search on my mobile.

I guess the only currently active option is steemit and to some extent steam...

 

[alexander3rd]

I would try to avoid the player typing in the relationship status between the MC and any other of the characters..

Thanks! I'll look into it. I just started to write my code a week ago, having the Renpy documentation in the background, learning one step at a time. Doubt writing the whole thing will be a challenge, the challenge will be to write a story that adapts well to the whole roommate / sister thing. The game will still be quite simple, as it is my first project. Not aiming for success, it's more like a learning project. If there's a goal other than that, then it's to get the ball rolling, get known by a few players, maybe get some support if people will like the game. And then start working on the next one, which will be a bit more complicated.

 

[alexander3rd]

There are alternatives to Patreon, but patreon is still the biggest and the most widely known out there. People on forums like these might know and trust other alternatives, but people outside of here will be much more trustworthy to a Patreon link, than an alternative one they never heard about. At least in my opinion - Patreon is just better for promotion, especially for devs that are new & unheard of.

 

[79flavors]

[...] the challenge will be to write a story that adapts well to the whole roommate / sister thing.

Then as a suggestion... make the sister a childhood best friend rather than a roommate.
Most of the motivations, taboos and awkwardness will be the same.

They don't even need to be in the same house. Maybe mom and dad split when you were both under 12 and mom got her and dad got you. Maybe you've moved back into the area, where mom and sis live, to go to college. Just a happy coincidence. Maybe even drag out the tired old "dad died" opening. Or maybe dad was a complete dick and you've moved back in with mom and sis to get away from him. Maybe both you and your twin sister were put up for adoption and now you're both 18, this is the first time you've been able to access to the legal documents to find your sister (though that one would be more difficult to keep the motivations side-by-side with a "best friend" background too). If you really want to break new ground, maybe you grew up with two mommy's, long before it became commonplace - but Mommy Helena and Mommy Wendy split up. Now there's a dual story writing challenge. erservingface:

Better still... write everything from the "best friend" basis and when you're happy with it, hit your switch to change "friend" to "sister" and replay your own game. See what feels out of place or the wrong tone and adjust accordingly. That way, if your "learning project" turns out to be more complicated to structure than you imagined... you've still got the "best friend" game to publish to Patreon.
If you're going to do chapters... maybe write 3 or 4 chapters and do renders for 2, but only publish one. It'll give you more of an eye for the writing pitfalls of a dual story and a buffer if you plan to publish chapters on a regular schedule. (Life is so much less stressful when you KNOW next month's chapter is already written and rendered).

I'm glad you're comfortable writing story. That's the one thing I know I'd never be able to do. I'm barely competent with RenPy and completely useless with Daz3d... but I know, with effort, that I could learn them to a level I'd be happy with. Story is a "you can do it... or you can't". I'm definitely in the "I can't" bracket.

 

[alexander3rd]

Then as a suggestion... make the sister a childhood best friend rather than a roommate

Bookmarked, thank you for the ideas.
I left the parents part just as a background addition. Basically, mom got pregnant early in life and left her kids, they don't care about each other. Father was young a drunk, running away after hearing about the pregnancy, no one knows about him anything since. Main story is placed in Japan, while the mother moved to another country.
Maybe I'll make some events that will be tied to a few past events, then there will be a reason to include the parents in the story. Some psychological outcomes and choices might depend on it.

I'm glad you're comfortable writing story

Not sure about stories, but I'm comfortable with writing in general, it has been the communication method of choice for me for decades. There's a lot of things I've tried in the past, and aside from book writing, just haven't found anything that could be rewarding, while requiring a rich visual & text imagination, that I kind of possess. VNs might be that thing.
Speaking about Daz, this game will be Honey Select based. Played around in Daz for a few months, I got quite comfortable with it - but Daz renders require a much more powerful GPU, than the 1050Ti I have now. If I'll have the chance to upgrade to a 2080Ti or at least a 1080Ti, then of course Daz will be the software of choice, the creative freedom isn't comparable to HS, which is just a game with it's own assets itself. The difference is, it takes a fraction of a second to take a 4K screenshot from the HS studio, and it looks decent. While a single frame of a render in Daz takes anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes on a weak GPU, depending how complicated the scene is. In short, HS is just a massive time saver on my system, will have much more time to concentrate on the story.

 

[blackmasha]

speaking of, I was wondering how people still get away with "all characters are 18 year old" - enter a human loli school gir who looks 12. also, if everyone is above 18 years old, and you finish school at 18 years old, then how come some characters are said to be a younger character in a lower grade than other characters, this already means that character is no older than 17 years old

unless that character is a 1000 year old demon in an 8 year old body. or the funnier, a magical talking dog, you can't fuck a normal dog, but if it can talk for whatever reason then the sky is the limit. at this point they might as well just allow anything, I understand not allowing very clear underage stuff but the incest stuff always seemed weird to me. you can assault a little girl with a bunch of angry men, just make sure one of those men is not her brother - where's the logic? are they afraid people will start fucking their own family in real life? because that would be the last thing on the list that people might start to like and do in real life

 

[79flavors]

speaking of, I was wondering how people still get away with "all characters are 18 year old"

It's an artificial solution to an artificial problem. As such, everyone is trying to appear like they're doing the right thing in an ever more polarized arena.

Devs are trying to keep Patreon happy, by keeping to very vague guidance in Patreon's T&Cs.
Patreon in turn are trying to keep their payment processing companies happy - so they don't end up in a similar situation as PornHub, where the card processing companies pull the rug out from under them. (Though in the case of PornHub, they seem to have actually been on the wrong side of the actual LAW, which is a completely different issue).
The payment processing companies are trying to be "seen" to not endorsing what a group of narrow minded vocal lobbyist would describe as immoral.

Even the adult video companies don't make claims that their "characters" are 18 or older. They merely have to adhere to the law... which says they must confirm that the actors are 18 or over and say so. In the case of most games, there are no actors - they're just pixels... and those pixels have no age at all.

As to "why" people are "getting away" with it... the adult gaming world is tiny and for the most part, overlooked. Individual devs can either conform to what Patreon "seem" to be trying to enforce or just hope they don't get noticed. Either that, or they don't use Patreon or don't monetize their game at all.

This is just what happens when a payment processing company over compensates to a perceived future public relations problem. Then Patreon over compensate to the perceived future problem with the payment processing rules. Then the individual dev over compensates to a perceived future problems with Patreon's T&Cs.

Everyone overlooks that this is all just make believe and that the law governing the depiction of something isn't the same as the law governing actually doing that same something. My favorite example being that if the depiction of incest were illegal - Game of Thrones (which included 2 incestuous relationships) would never have been allow to be aired (and I guarantee that MasterCard processed payments for HBO). Likewise, shooting someone is illegal - wanna guess how many games they would have to pull from Steam if someone ever suggested that the depiction of shooting someone should be treated in the same way?

Imperfect artificial problem. Imperfect artificial solution.

 

[iOtero]

Well, the truth is that I do not understand very well the origin of the problem with patreon...

There are games where there is no incest, but there is non-consensual physical violence against women...

And, above all, I don't understand it because I am Spanish, and in Spain incest is NOT A CRIME. No one is going to put you in jail or take you to a jury because you have sexual relations with your child over 16 (or vice versa) if the relationship is consented to by both people.

In Spain, it is also not a crime to have CONSENT sexual relations with a person who is 16 years old...

I thought that the United States was a more tolerant country, but I see that I was wrong... What they are tolerant of is that anyone can have all the firearms they want... At Spain you can't buy a gun so easily, of course...
(And I do not say this to offend anyone, but as a sad thought in itself...)

 

[anne O'nymous]

I thought that the United States was a more tolerant country, but I see that I was wrong...

Tolerance have nothing to do with the problem. As 79flavors implied, it's more a question of perceived image than a question of effective Law.

Obviously, each party have to respect the Law, but as you demonstrated yourself, Law isn't something universal. While, because of the Spanish laws, you can access games with Incest while others can't, even just owning a game with zoophilia is a crime in your country (at least it was last time I looked at it), while it's perfectly legal in other countries, like the USA by example.
And this is the reason why each actor define his own rules around a moral consensus that go further than Law ; they are putting the limits where they estimate that "most of the public all around the world" want them to be.
It's, by example, why Patreon have rules more strict regarding their merchandising feature, than regarding their main activity. Mostly the public wouldn't care what game you install in your computer, but the same persons wouldn't necessarily agree if you were drinking your coffee at works in a mug with some explicit content from this game.

In top of that, payment processor have to deal with frauds, that they want to minimize since it's them which pay until the culprit is found, if he's found. And obviously, the darker is the topic, the higher is the number of frauds ; I'm sure that you understand that, by example, people buying p*d*shit rarely use their real identity, and so their real bank account.
Obviously, a game with a 14/16yo digital character isn't the same thing than real p*d*shit, but they share a small portion of their public, and therefore the risk of frauds are higher than with other kind of porn content.

All this being said, I don't agree regarding the lack of tolerance. The fact that all this isn't a matter of tolerance doesn't mean that Patreon isn't more tolerant than they should. They could easily actively enforce their rules. They could hire two/three persons to perform random check of the accounts content, or ask for a validation beforehand for any link published by an adult account, or keep an eye on any new creator account during the few months to see if the rules are effectively followed.
Instead they are waiting that someone report a violation of those rules. if you're reported, they have no other choice than to respect the rules decided by the payment processors, but until then, they decided to not care, up to you to stay under the radars.