Question about using Brand Names in VNs

DarthSeduction

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As soon as I read that I just had to comment on this. My view of Bethesda is quite different! They will charge into a legal battle if they get a tiny opportunity to do so. They will find a way to win the war even though they have lost all the battles. If you need proof look up the legal battle for the Fallout MMO between Interplay(creators of the fallout brand) and Bethesda.
Bethesda lost the two first battles and even the appeal for the second battle and still ends on top in 2012 when Interplay sells the rights to the Fallout MMO to Bethesda. ALL references to the fallout world had to be taken out of the fallout mmo that Interplay had been working on if they wanted to publish it at all!
Bethesda was absolutely right to go after interplay for that. Interplay no longer had the rights to the property, just because they changed the format of the game didn't mean that they should be allowed to keep it. Treyarch and Bungie had similar battles with the companies that owned their property and lost. What OP is talking about doing, and what Interplay was doing are two completely separate ideas, with OPs being in a definite legal grey area, but with the Interplay example being a clear infringement of intellectual property.
 

zerozip0

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A debate on whether or not Bethesda should have taken legal action and if they were in the right or not is something that would move the thread into off-topic territory. I can definately see why Bethesda did it although in my point of view Interplay was in the right in the matter. The initial rulings did afterall fall out in favor of Interplay...
I might have been unclear as to why I mentioned this case in the first place, but my point was that Bethesda is not the friendly hippie-like coorporation that it was being portrayed as. They do take legal action when they think they are in the right. They will be relentless. They will keep it up for years if they have to! I wanted to mention that since Bethesda owns both the Fallout and the Elder Scrolls brands and a game in the latter brand was being discussed.
 

OhWee

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This isn't directly related to this conversation, but I figured I'd share, since someone mentioned game designers not having control over their games once a publisher acquires the copyright.

Apparently, there is a provision in US Copyright law that allows authors (in specific situations) to regain control over their copyright after 35 or 40 years, if they file said intent within a limited window.


Note that apparently this doesn't apply to works for hire...

Steve Jackson games recently exercised this option, so that Steve could regain control over The Fantasy Trip series of games. The party that was in control of the copyrights was not interested in selling them back (as far as we know) so Steve created GURPS in the meantime. There was a court case over a couple of other games (Ogre/GEV and One Page Bulge) where Steve regained the rights, but that's another story...

Anyways, I doubt that there are many here that have old games that they liked that fell into IP Hell, but figured I'd share, in case you should just happen to know a guy that sold the rights to a published work a long time back that may want them back. For that person, this might be an interesting option for them at least.

Edit: Note that Jonathan Betuel (the person that wrote The Last Starfighter) may have exercised this option. I saw a mention of him regaining the rights to the story, and the time frame fits. There was some noise in April of this year about a collaboration between him and Gary Whitta, the screenwriter for Rogue One: A Star Wars Story r.e. a reboot/sequel to The Last Starfighter.
 
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DarthSeduction

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A debate on whether or not Bethesda should have taken legal action and if they were in the right or not is something that would move the thread into off-topic territory. I can definately see why Bethesda did it although in my point of view Interplay was in the right in the matter. The initial rulings did afterall fall out in favor of Interplay...
I might have been unclear as to why I mentioned this case in the first place, but my point was that Bethesda is not the friendly hippie-like coorporation that it was being portrayed as. They do take legal action when they think they are in the right. They will be relentless. They will keep it up for years if they have to! I wanted to mention that since Bethesda owns both the Fallout and the Elder Scrolls brands and a game in the latter brand was being discussed.
So what you're saying is, you failed to recognize the context in which I said what I did, clarifying what grounds by which one would be able to avoid them feeling that they would be right to pursue a legal case against him, hiding within the grounds of fair use and parody, rather than making an out and out derivative of their intellectual property, which is what, in the end, it was determined Interplay was doing.
 

zerozip0

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So what you're saying is, you failed to recognize the context in which I said what I did, clarifying what grounds by which one would be able to avoid them feeling that they would be right to pursue a legal case against him, hiding within the grounds of fair use and parody, rather than making an out and out derivative of their intellectual property, which is what, in the end, it was determined Interplay was doing.
No. My initial post was meant as an eye opener for people that might only have heard good things about Bethesda.
But let me just make one thing clear to you: I was not making a personal attack on you or the posts that you have made.
I was stating that I disagree with the image that was being painted of Bethesda and I mentioned the Interplay vs Bethesda case to give people an example of how Bethesda can and will take legal action. That you and I disagree in whether Interplay or Bethesda was in the right is irrelevant for this thread so let us just stop that discussion right now.
It was my way of saying that my advise is to not use stuff from Skyrim or other well known and well protected titles or brands.
 

DarthSeduction

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No. My initial post was meant as an eye opener for people that might only have heard good things about Bethesda.
But let me just make one thing clear to you: I was not making a personal attack on you or the posts that you have made.
I was stating that I disagree with the image that was being painted of Bethesda and I mentioned the Interplay vs Bethesda case to give people an example of how Bethesda can and will take legal action. That you and I disagree in whether Interplay or Bethesda was in the right is irrelevant for this thread so let us just stop that discussion right now.
It was my way of saying that my advise is to not use stuff from Skyrim or other well known and well protected titles or brands.
It's not actually irrelevant. It's exactly why there's confusion in your statement. Let's make something perfectly clear, I don't even believe in Intellectual Property rights. I think they're too often abused and detrimental to society.

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All of this is to say, this is a completely different situation to fair use. This is a contract deal that went sour, wherein the courts decided that Interplay failed to hold up their end of the bargain as laid out in the contract. The same thing would happen if Marvel failed to hold up their end of the deal with Spiderman, who they've licensed from Sony. When it comes to using bits and pieces of their property for parody, there is legal leeway, and not much value in it for Bethesda to pursue a lawsuit.
 

anne O'nymous

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If your assertion that it was fair use to use Whiterun and Ysolda were true [...]
An assertion that I didn't made. It's your interpretation that made you come to this conclusion, not my saying. You seem to not understood that all what I said is linked. You can't take part of a sentence or a paragraph and assume that this part alone is as legal as any other parts take alone. It's not how Law works, nor what I said.
What I said it that it's legal to use Whiterun if what I said before and after these words is also present. So, here, among other things, if it's used from the game itself, not for profit, and used as parody or seen as homage by the rights owner(s).
That's how Law works, it's not an action that is judged, but the action in its context.
By example, it's not legal to cross the road outside of crosswalk. Still if you've to face justice because of this, the context will be take in count. Perhaps had you a really good reason to do so, or was there a reason to make this law irrelevant in this particular case ; it can even be both at the same time. Crossing a road, blocked because of a cycling competition, outside of the crosswalk, to give assistance to a rider who just fall is not illegal. This despite the fact that the Law say it clearly, it's illegal to cross a road outside of a crosswalk.


Which is what I was getting at with saying it isn't something that is clearly defined. Precedent helps, so if you have done your research [...]
No, and no. Once again you misunderstood how Law works. Every law is split in two parts. The letter of the law, so what is wrote, and the intend of the law, so why the law was wrote. The first one is the definition itself, and for parody it's clearly defined. The second one is the interpretation made of the law, and that's where the precedents take place. But the precedents don't change the clarity of the law, there's many that are way less clear than this one, and most of them cover way more important subjects.
The decision doesn't always fall as you expected it. Still one of the two lawyers expected this issue... else there wouldn't have be a trial at all. It's perhaps not this evident with the US judicial system, but it's what happen. If it didn't worked like this, the whole justice process would be simply useless.
To keep my previous example, you crossed the road, you were outside of the crosswalk, you'll be sentenced, point. No need to sent you to the court, no need for a judge who past his life studying Law, no need for a lawyer to defend you. It's wrote that it's illegal, it is.
Hopefully, it's not like this.


[...] otherwise it's going to be up to the judge's personal discretion as to what constitutes a transformative work.
No, no, no, no, no ! It's not up to the judge's personal discretion ! It can be your impression as simple witness of the judicial system, but no, really no. Once again, there's a trial because one of the lawyer expected this decision. This especially in the US where you are prone to financial agreement to avoid to have to face a judge. And if one lawyer expected this decision, it's because the whole process is strict and, in a way, predictable.
For case falling under the Civilian Law, what can't be (totally) predicted is the knowledge of the judge. He can be not enough aware of the concept of [whatever the main part of the case]. He can misunderstand what the expert will try to explain. He can know a precedent that the lawyer don't know. The lawyer can have missed something. That what make one of the lawyer loose, not the personal discretion of the judge.


Who do you think the victim of copyright infringement is?
Where's the copyright infringement in the fact to fuck a girl with a bottle of Coca ? Where's the copyright infringement in the fact to kill someone by stabbing him with a screwdriver ? There isn't... and that's why, like I said, the manufacturer/seller can't sue you for the use you made of its product.
 

DarthSeduction

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An assertion that I didn't made. It's your interpretation that made you come to this conclusion, not my saying. You seem to not understood that all what I said is linked. You can't take part of a sentence or a paragraph and assume that this part alone is as legal as any other parts take alone. It's not how Law works, nor what I said.
What I said it that it's legal to use Whiterun if what I said before and after these words is also present. So, here, among other things, if it's used from the game itself, not for profit, and used as parody or seen as homage by the rights owner(s).
That's how Law works, it's not an action that is judged, but the action in its context.
What this tells me, then, is that you've ignored the context of the thread to argue with me about what I've said in context. You're not telling me anything I haven't said myself, but instead arguing us into the grey area that I already have stated both to you and OP is where it's safer. I don't disagree with what you're saying on it's face, only with that it's applicable in this context.

No, and no. Once again you misunderstood how Law works. Every law is split in two parts. The letter of the law, so what is wrote, and the intend of the law, so why the law was wrote. The first one is the definition itself, and for parody it's clearly defined. The second one is the interpretation made of the law, and that's where the precedents take place. But the precedents don't change the clarity of the law, there's many that are way less clear than this one, and most of them cover way more important subjects.
The decision doesn't always fall as you expected it. Still one of the two lawyers expected this issue... else there wouldn't have be a trial at all. It's perhaps not this evident with the US judicial system, but it's what happen. If it didn't worked like this, the whole justice process would be simply useless.
To keep my previous example, you crossed the road, you were outside of the crosswalk, you'll be sentenced, point. No need to sent you to the court, no need for a judge who past his life studying Law, no need for a lawyer to defend you. It's wrote that it's illegal, it is.
Hopefully, it's not like this.
No, Parody's definition is still not a cut and dry thing. It's clear what, in the US we call, jaywalking is. You crossed the street outside of a marked crosswalk, and or without the right of way. Yes, if you can provide a valid reason why that happened, you'll win your case, but that means that you met extenuating circumstances. It is not so clear what is and is not a parody. As with all art, it's open to interpretation. So it is up to the judge's interpretation of the work to decide if the defendant did a good enough job of meeting the definition of Parody. I bring up again the example of Rick and Morty. There is no argument that they are the same story as Back to the future. You can see the influences, but it's clear they're a parody or more likely satire of those characters, which should be covered under fair use, yet still, they were forced to change their names from Doc and Marty to Rick and Morty. Meanwhile, Vivid Entertainment, the porn company, has a shot for shot remake of A New Hope with added porn and slightly different lines that didn't even face a lawsuit in court because George Lucas already lost one in this realm, when a judge ruled that there is no way anyone could mistake the pornographic nature of such a parody of his extremely recognizable property as the work of Lucasfilm. Interpretations of what constitute Parody are much broader than interpretations of what constitutes Jaywalking. That's the point I've been making in trying to say that Parody is not clearly defined. It's the nature of art that it will always be open to interpretation, and, as I hope I showed with the story about Star Wars porn parodies, one in which you're much better off if you're able to find precedent for.

No, no, no, no, no ! It's not up to the judge's personal discretion ! It can be your impression as simple witness of the judicial system, but no, really no. Once again, there's a trial because one of the lawyer expected this decision. This especially in the US where you are prone to financial agreement to avoid to have to face a judge. And if one lawyer expected this decision, it's because the whole process is strict and, in a way, predictable.
For case falling under the Civilian Law, what can't be (totally) predicted is the knowledge of the judge. He can be not enough aware of the concept of [whatever the main part of the case]. He can misunderstand what the expert will try to explain. He can know a precedent that the lawyer don't know. The lawyer can have missed something. That what make one of the lawyer loose, not the personal discretion of the judge.
I guess your interpretation of the word discretion is flawed then. Because none of what you've said invalidates the judges discretion. Yes, it is a lawyers job to convince the judge of their case. It is not the Judge's job to agree with the lawyer's point of view on the case. The Judge interprets the evidence based on their understanding of the law and makes a decision. All legal decisions are at the discretion of the judge. There are guidelines and mandatory limits to some of the things a judge might oversee, but in the end the job of interpreting the law is the judges discretion. That is why you are allowed to appeal to a higher court, because a lower court may sometimes make the wrong decision, colored by their lack of experience, or personal beliefs.

An example of this in action in the US is a case of a woman who, after multiple domestic disputes wherein her husband beat her, finally leaves him. She attempts, multiple times, to have the court take away the man's guns on the grounds that he is mentally unstable and presents a threat to her and her new boyfriend. She's unsuccessful, as the judge's personal interpretation of the law doesn't allow him to do that. She, her new boyfriend, and the husband are all dead today because the husband killed them all. This was a case of a working class woman, she couldn't afford to drag this out and appeal to a higher court, though if she had, she might still be alive today, but because of the discretion of the judge in the civil case to take away the violent offender's firearms, three people died.

Where's the copyright infringement in the fact to fuck a girl with a bottle of Coca ? Where's the copyright infringement in the fact to kill someone by stabbing him with a screwdriver ? There isn't... and that's why, like I said, the manufacturer/seller can't sue you for the use you made of its product.
Coca-Cola would be suing for defamation of their brand in the first scenario. The second scenario is a case of criminal law, and not the subject of any sort of "fair use" or "Intellectual Property" discussion.

Typically all the intellectual property offenses are treated as civil offenses unless the laws of state or federal government [define a specific criminal act], or not obeyed.

In case of intellectual property offense the owner of the IP has to sue the infringer in the court of law to get the infringing materials destroyed or remove and to collect financial damages from the infringer. The infringer has to follow the orders of the court and pay the damages to the original creator of the copyrighted creation. He cannot be sent to jail as civil suits never end in a jail punishment
This is what you're not understanding. As said above, typically, in the case of IP infringement, you are dealing with a civil case, one in which the victim, i.e. the IP holder, sues the infringer. Now, if the infringer is creating and selling counterfeit copies of their work, i.e. pirating music or movies and selling CD's, then they're in criminal territory and will also be prosecuted for that, but even so, things will start with a civil lawsuit, in which the IP holder sues the infringer. If, of course, the infringer was caught selling the CDs or DVDs and the arresting officers decided to do their due diligence and get them prosecuted for the counterfeiting and piracy then it would be criminal from the start, but it's actually far more likely these days that such a case occurs because you were caught by a tracker pirating their work in the first place, and sharing it as well, meaning the civil suit would still come first to trigger the criminal investigation after. The only other time a case such as this ends up in criminal court is if you fail to abide by the court's ruling, in which case you are charged with contempt of court, and prosecuted as such.