Quitting my job..

[anne O'nymous]

Depends on your country? In my country, your benefits do not change. You can make an unemployment insurance. Besides that, you can never drop to 0 thanks to social welfare anyway. When it comes to retirement, you need to pay pension insurance as indie dev anyway, [...]

*sigh*

I never said that you loose your rights to, or your access to, those benefits, just that they don't anymore come automatically, being deducted for you from your gross salary.
And if I explicitly excluded the US, it's precisely because the notion of "gross salary" is mostly irrelevant there. There's job that come with benefits but, globally, paying for their health and unemployment insurance, and contributing to their retirement fund, is something that is natural for them. While it's absolutely not instinctive outside of the USA.
And it happen that, when they think about quitting their job for a freelancer(-like) life, most people do not think about all this; they make their decision by comparing what they expect to earn to their net salary, not to their gross one. Then, surprise, since those benefits generally cost more when you're freelancer(-like), they end with less than half what they expected. Then come the taxes, here again generally higher since you're now a company all by yourself, and at the end of the year it's almost like they earned nothing, this while earning as much as when they had a salary.

Where does this come from? Why would one, if being a full time dev only work for 5 to 10 years at max?

*sigh*

It happen that the life span of a career as indie adult game developer is usually between 5 to 10 years. This doesn't mean that there isn't who quit sooner, nor that there isn't who continue longer. It's just the average one have to expect when considering this career.

5 times more? Where does this crazy number come from? I don't see why it would be necessary.

Well, between the social benefits cost and the taxes, you'll already spend between 30% of your earning; percent that obviously vary depending on your country and how much you earn (don't know why, but I suddenly feel the need to state the obvious).
So, assuming that you were earning 2,000 and now earn 10,000, it leave you with 7,000. Once you lived with the 2,000 that was your previous salary, this leave you with 5,000 for your annuity fund.
If you're smart, you'll find one with a 5%/year return, therefore 250, what is 1,04% of your annual salary. Therefore, to continue to earn, through this annuity fund, the equivalent of your salary once you retire from your freelancer-(like) job, you need 97 months of 5,000 deposits to your annuity fund, and therefore to do it for 8 years and 1 month. Yet, being retired from the career doesn't mean that you've reached the age of retirement. Therefore you'll then still have to pay for your social benefits, hence the two years more (assuming that you'll top the average lasting for such career), in order for your annuity fund to be able to cover them. What will save you from being short due to the extended cost being the fact that you injected back to your annuity fund what you earned from it during your career.
[source: I've been freelancer for a bit less than 10 years]

 

[uwuwoof]

Geez don't sigh so much, makes me feel stupid.

I never said that you loose your rights to, or your access to, those benefits, just that they don't anymore come automatically, being deducted for you from your gross salary.

Well yeah, you have to pay tax and social insurance yourself instead of it being automatically pulled off your gross salary in a normal employment status. That is for every self employment the case but what is exactly the problem here? You are obligated to pay them nevertheless. I mean sure, you can tell some children not knowing anything about how things work in life that what you earn as indie is gross and not net but ..duh?

And why should your taxes be suddenly higher? At least in my country the amount of your taxes and social insurance payments are less if you earn less and more if you earn more..quite simple. And normally the social insurance payments increase when self employed and not your income tax, but because of your status as an artists (In my country) These payments are the same as being normally employed.

In short: If your gross income is the same as it was in your normal employment status, you get pretty much the same net income with the same social benefits while being self employed at the end of the day. No, in fact, you have an advantage to normal employers because you don't pay taxes right away but with a delay.

It happen that the life span of a career as indie adult game developer is usually between 5 to 10 years. This doesn't mean that there isn't who quit sooner, nor that there isn't who continue longer. It's just the average one have to expect when considering this career.

Again, where does this data come from and why should I care? This statistic has nothing to do with anyone personally. Sounds like a personal decision people made which got put together in a statistic but it is not like your fingers start to decay because of to much typing on the keyboard so your career has a time limit of some sort. Very weird take if you ask me.

Well, between the social benefits cost and the taxes, you'll already spend between 30% of your earning; percent that obviously vary depending on your country and how much you earn (don't know why, but I suddenly feel the need to state the obvious).
So, assuming that you were earning 2,000 and now earn 10,000, it leave you with 7,000. Once you lived with the 2,000 that was your previous salary, this leave you with 5,000 for your annuity fund.
If you're smart, you'll find one with a 5%/year return, therefore 250, what is 1,04% of your annual salary. Therefore, to continue to earn, through this annuity fund, the equivalent of your salary once you retire from your freelancer-(like) job, you need 97 months of 5,000 deposits to your annuity fund, and therefore to do it for 8 years and 1 month. Yet, being retired from the career doesn't mean that you've reached the age of retirement. Therefore you'll then still have to pay for your social benefits, hence the two years more (assuming that you'll top the average lasting for such career), in order for your annuity fund to be able to cover them. What will save you from being short due to the extended cost being the fact that you injected back to your annuity fund what you earned from it during your career.
[source: I've been freelancer for a bit less than 10 years]

Ahh.. annuity fund. That is why you suddenly have to earn 5 times more then before? Well in my country you gotta pay for your pension like a normal employer from your gross income anyway, it is an obligation, you are no different from a normal employer in this case and you will get your pension payed when you retire. And even if you did not payed enough into the pot, it is not like you will starve, you get your basic income as a pensioner one way or another. + The passive income of your steam games library you made along the way

 

[anne O'nymous]

I mean sure, you can tell some children not knowing anything about how things work in life that what you earn as indie is gross and not net but ..duh?

Why limits to children? There's tons of grown adults in their 30 and more who absolutely don't understand all of this.
Goes outside, stop adults and ask them to describe how the retirement pension works in your country. It doesn't matters where you live, it doesn't matters what's their education level, you'll discover that way too many have no fucking clue, while only a minority will describe it accurately.
And what apply to the retirement pension also apply to all the social benefits. The guys your hear about in the news, because they protest against migrants that benefits for this/that, or unemployed who earn more that employees, they really believe the shit they say, while it's never true. And you expect them to suddenly know and understand everything just because they decide to goes freelancer(-like)?

And why should your taxes be suddenly higher?

I said it, because you aren't anymore an employee...

You'll not just pay taxes on your earning, you'll also have to pay taxes on your company-like (here again the status depend on the country, and you can have choice between more than one) income. How it will be handled depend on the country. For some if will be done through the same taxes form that for an employee, just by filling another case for your earning, other need you to fill an aditional form, and some even have a totally different taxes form. But in the end, you're taxed more. It's rarely excessive, but it's always more than you expected.
And this is for the case where you decide to goes as freelancer(-like). If you decide to create an actual studio, even if you register yourself as its sole employee, you'll be taxed on your earning (like any employee) and you'll also have to pay the taxes from the studio, that is a plain company; all this over the global income. And in this case it's not just "a bit more" than you'll have to pay.

[...] but because of your status as an artists (In my country) These payments are the same as being normally employed.

I can be wrong since it depend on the country, but I'm almost sure that you can't pretend to an "artist" status while being an indie dev. The status of "artist" usually exist to cover you against the high fluctuation in your income and the possible months without income. You can pretend to such status when you're payed per service, and indies devs are not payed per service.

Again, where does this data come from and why should I care?

They come for around 25 years witnessing the adult gaming scene. And you should care because you aren't special.
With less than 15% earning at least US$ 2,000/month through Patreon, and taking count of the other sources of income and of the change, an indie adult game dev have less than 50% chance to make a living from this. And obviously the unfavourable effort/earning ratio isn't the only reason for this. There's the exhaustion after years doing it, and the social status change. You have children, or you get married, or your wife threaten to divorce if you don't pass more time with your family, or you simply grow up, or you fall in depression after your mother's death, or so many other things... And all this reduce the time you can dedicate to development, and/or shift your priorities, and/or simply make you decide that you've done it for long enough.
In the end, while studios, and studios-like (team, of friends or not) tend to survive through the time, solo devs them tend to stop their career before hitting the 10 years bar. And, as I implied, planing your whole future on the fact that you'll do better than all the others is the best way to hit a wall.

Or you can just look at the self-employment stats for your country. If it's actually true that the survival rate after 5 years tend to be over 80% whatever the country, generally less than 60% reach this threshold. And self-employed is what indie devs are.

[...] but it is not like your fingers start to decay because of to much typing on the keyboard so your career has a time limit of some sort.

Carpal tunnel syndrome. Burnout. Fucked up eyesight. Twisted spine. Recurring low blood pressure. To name only few of the medical issues that can come from being an indie dev, and have a direct impact on your work. Not that everyone will suffer from one, but they exist and are a Damocles sword hanging over your head from starts to stop.

Ahh.. annuity fund. That is why you suddenly have to earn 5 times more then before? Well in my country you gotta pay for your pension like a normal employer [...]

Who talked about pension?

You starts as indie dev at 30yo. You're lucky and your career only end when you reach 40yo. You'll still have 20 years to live before you can benefit from your pension, how do you expect to do this? Not through a return to your previous job. You're 40yo and have a 10 years gap in your resume. All the experience you previously gathered worse nothing now, and no one will want to hire you. And if they do, it will be with an entry level salary, so less that you earned before you quit, and less than you need.
As I explicitly said, it's what the annuity fund is for; to provide you an income in order to still be able to live between the moment where you retire, and the moment where you reach the legal retirement age.

 

[DSSAlex]

*sigh*

It happen that the life span of a career as indie adult game developer is usually between 5 to 10 years. This doesn't mean that there isn't who quit sooner, nor that there isn't who continue longer. It's just the average one have to expect when considering this career.

How many people were making their living on adult video games in 2015. Probably a few people in Japan and the guy that made the MeetNFuck games, but outside of that the market didn't really exist. I think making actual middle class income is an extremely unlikely scenario for a new solo dev, even less so with a small team, but I don't think the data is there to make a sweeping statement about the longevity of adult game devs.

 

[anne O'nymous]

How many people were making their living on adult video games in 2015.

Well, for 2015 it's hard to say, because it's kind of a tipping point. But it was more than nowadays, not just proportionally speaking.

[globally speaking]
From mid 90's to mid 00's, almost everyone where making a living, because they were payed employee for a studio. In the West, it was studios working for, when not owned by, XXX movies companies, and in Asia, it was studios making "regular games" and doing some adult games in top of this.
Then, from mid 00's to more or less mid 10's, professional studios resigned, leaving an empty space. In the West indie studios, formal or not, appeared, mostly making Flash games, either around a handful of devs, or commissioning devs. This while in Asia its indie devs who filled the void. At those time there were mostly two type of devs. Those for who it was their job, and those who didn't cared a single second about money; most don't even had a tip jar. The first ones made a living, the others obviously not but it wasn't even part of their consideration.

Then around 2015 (in fact a bit before, but hard to date precisely) the possibilities to earn money through indie development grown up. Companies providing a tip-jar service multiplied, and crowdfunding platforms significantly gained in popularity. Patreon was also created, but it's only later that it was in position to accept adult content.
With now multiple options to earn money from their creation, the number of indie adult game devs grown, while most of the previously famous studioes started to collapse. They were stuck to their "small cash grad flash games" logic, while the scene was starting to have more and more translated Asian games, and western devs started to use RPG Maker to make actual games with hours of content.
What lead to the current situation, where the scene is mostly filled by indie devs, and the possibility to earn a living have been drastically lowered.

 

[uwuwoof]

And you expect them to suddenly know and understand everything just because they decide to goes freelancer(-like)?

Yes because it somewhat involves basic knowledge. You gotta pay taxes.

You'll not just pay taxes on your earning, you'll also have to pay taxes on your company

There is no trade tax for freelancers at least in my country. So not my concern. I do not pay more taxes then a regular employee.

I can be wrong since it depend on the country, but I'm almost sure that you can't pretend to an "artist" status while being an indie dev. The status of "artist" usually exist to cover you against the high fluctuation in your income and the possible months without income. You can pretend to such status when you're payed per service, and indies devs are not payed per service.

You can't pretend to be one and you can't try to not be one. The government says you are one based on what you do. They count game devs in, so you gotta pay for your pension while other type of freelancers don't necessary have to. And you gotta pay an "artist" fee if you commission one. 15% to the amount of the commission rate. My tax advisor is always ranting about it. Just my countries thingy I guess..

They come for around 25 years witnessing the adult gaming scene. And you should care because you aren't special.
With less than 15% earning at least US$ 2,000/month through Patreon, and taking count of the other sources of income and of the change, an indie adult game dev have less than 50% chance to make a living from this. And obviously the unfavourable effort/earning ratio isn't the only reason for this. There's the exhaustion after years doing it, and the social status change. You have children, or you get married, or your wife threaten to divorce if you don't pass more time with your family, or you simply grow up, or you fall in depression after your mother's death, or so many other things... And all this reduce the time you can dedicate to development, and/or shift your priorities, and/or simply make you decide that you've done it for long enough.
In the end, while studios, and studios-like (team, of friends or not) tend to survive through the time, solo devs them tend to stop their career before hitting the 10 years bar. And, as I implied, planing your whole future on the fact that you'll do better than all the others is the best way to hit a wall.

Or you can just look at the self-employment stats for your country. If it's actually true that the survival rate after 5 years tend to be over 80% whatever the country, generally less than 60% reach this threshold. And self-employed is what indie devs are.

How do you imagine an adult game dev work I wonder? It is nothing else then a regular freelancer job I would guess. In fact you have way more freedom and free time then one who is working based of some kind of a commission rate. Like today I decided to argue with people on the internet instead of coding. Heh.

As a game dev your portfolio is a steam games library, your patreon/subscribestar and stuff..So many subscription / passive sales based income. In fact I would say that being an adult game dev is one of the easiest self employment careers you can take if not considering that making a game is a difficult job by itself.

Carpal tunnel syndrome. Burnout. Fucked up eyesight. Twisted spine. Recurring low blood pressure. To name only few of the medical issues that can come from being an indie dev, and have a direct impact on your work. Not that everyone will suffer from one, but they exist and are a Damocles sword hanging over your head from starts to stop.

Great, last time I checked you are not immune to this shit when being a regular worker. Just do a disability insurance if you are afraid of it.

Who talked about pension?

You starts as indie dev at 30yo. You're lucky and your career only end when you reach 40yo. You'll still have 20 years to live before you can benefit from your pension, how do you expect to do this? Not through a return to your previous job. You're 40yo and have a 10 years gap in your resume. All the experience you previously gathered worse nothing now, and no one will want to hire you. And if they do, it will be with an entry level salary, so less that you earned before you quit, and less than you need.
As I explicitly said, it's what the annuity fund is for; to provide you an income in order to still be able to live between the moment where you retire, and the moment where you reach the legal retirement age.

Again, why should the career end after 10 years? That is just some weird assumption. I just can't get really gasp why you are insisting on those "max. 10 years".

That being said. No need to blackpaint and talk down every attempt of people who want to try to go indie. "Max 1 % can do it" is some bullshit anyway in my opinion. And the claim that you need to earn 5 times more then with your regular job in order to make it work is just nuts to me.

 

[Iexist]

As amusing as the argument between you two is... can't you two agree on the following points?

1. Taxes and Benefits vary from country to country.
2. Anyone who wants to try to earn their living as an Adult Games Developer should research exactly what the situation is in their specific country to know what kind of hurdles they need to worry about.

There's no need to go into weird arguments about specific styles of taxes and benefits and "averages" and whatnot... That's not gonna help anyone.

 

[Leilin1949]

Make sure you have a backup plan.

between patreon getting greedier per year and the clusterfuck surrounding visa/mastercard, you make sure theres a secondary income or an alternate site.

- itch.io just fucked all of the nsfw creators with their rule change.
- NSFW creators in China got fucked because their government suddenly targeting them. a lot of them had to move oversea(?)

To be honest, this kind of thing hasn't just been happening for a year or two in China. It's always a big risk， for Chinese people, the cost of moving oversea is generally just too high

 

[MissCougar]

*hyperventelates*

Oh wait... it's you doing that not me. Ok.. still though seeing people make that choice for porn games can be tough.

I couldn't help but notice your games seem to be using real people. I hope you got permission from those people to use their videos in your games. Otherwise this may be a catastrophic decision for you.

I wish you the best in your success. I hope your new walk of life makes up for whatever your day job is/was! Best of luck, friend!

 

[MissCougar]

Also just as an aside, I thought using real people in porn on patreon was against their rules? I'm sure someone mentioned that here by now... I just haven't read all the text walls yet.

 

[Jaike]

Damn... I thought I had the patting gif Icarus made!

I think that technically counts as petting Alicia though, not petting Insomnimaniac Games...

 

[That other person]

I think that technically counts as petting Alicia though, not petting Insomnimaniac Games...

lol Thank you!

 

[olaf_yaddax]

Good luck with your plans, brother.