'Sandbox' games - yay or nay?

[hseeker123]

I am working on a corruption themed VN involving multiple possible girls (not showing it because it's too early), and originally intended to structure it as a sandbox with various events for each girl that progress their individual story, based on if/when the player chooses to.

However after looking through some threads here for other games, seems like a lot of people don't like sandboxes, which went against my expectations. A linear non-sandbox game would certainly be a lot easier to make too.

What are your thoughts on sandboxes?

 

[おい！]

A great way to entertain the little ones..........

 

[Sylandrical]

I like them.

 

[hiya02]

Sandboxes are great, when done well! Open game world plus non-linear events simply have so much more potential than the basic railroad clicking simulators
Sure, they require a lot more effort than a typical Kn clicking simulator, so as the first game it can be overwhelming.

 

[Rich]

There are pros and cons to sandbox games, IMHO. In no particular order:

1. I happen to think it's a more interesting experience, assuming it's done well. As an example, I think Big Brother and its current reboot are done very well.
2. From a development point of view, they're a lot harder to deal with. Because you don't necessarily control the order in which players do things, you have to be VERY careful with your "this happens after that" and "this refers to that."
3. The people who only fire up your game so they can look at the fap scenes will hate it, because they can't "speed skip" through the "story" parts to get to the parts they consider "interesting."
4. You typically have to create a LOT more content, because you have to deal with all those "player goes to a place where there's nothing going on" cases. Oh, sure, you can just say "don't go there" or just have an empty room in response to that click, but that's kind of cheating, from my point of view. So, ideally, you kind of need "idle events."
5. You'll probably have to either publish a walkthrough, or else develop some kind of in-game hint system, because it's easy for players to get lost in all the multiple "quests." Summertime Saga feels like this to me. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
6. You have to be careful to make key events not too difficult to hit. I've played games where, in order to advance, you have to play some event, but that event is only available at a certain location, at a certain time of day, with a small, random probability. That can be frustrating. Some randomness isn't necessarily horrible, particularly with idle events, but making it hard for a player to advance isn't necessarily a good thing.
7. Properly structured, they can offer the ability to repeat certain events (in the form of "idle events") that might interest players. Go back and get that lap dance again. And again.
8. Sandbox games are most effective when you have multiple interlocking quests or story threads. "Linear" games turned into sandboxes I find much less compelling. (i.e. it's just a sequence of "play this event there, then this event there" steps.) Again, this adds to development complexity, because you have to plan out all those different arcs and then figure out how they interlock.

So, bottom line, if it's going to be a good sandbox game, you're taking on a lot more work. At the same time, if you really do have multiple character arcs and you don't want the player to be forced to advance certain of them, then perhaps a sandbox is the way to go. Hard to tell without knowing more about your game.

 

[hseeker123]

There are pros and cons to sandbox games, IMHO. In no particular order:

1. I happen to think it's a more interesting experience, assuming it's done well. As an example, I think Big Brother and its current reboot are done very well.
2. From a development point of view, they're a lot harder to deal with. Because you don't necessarily control the order in which players do things, you have to be VERY careful with your "this happens after that" and "this refers to that."
3. The people who only fire up your game so they can look at the fap scenes will hate it, because they can't "speed skip" through the "story" parts to get to the parts they consider "interesting."
4. You typically have to create a LOT more content, because you have to deal with all those "player goes to a place where there's nothing going on" cases. Oh, sure, you can just say "don't go there" or just have an empty room in response to that click, but that's kind of cheating, from my point of view. So, ideally, you kind of need "idle events."
5. You'll probably have to either publish a walkthrough, or else develop some kind of in-game hint system, because it's easy for players to get lost in all the multiple "quests." Summertime Saga feels like this to me. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
6. You have to be careful to make key events not too difficult to hit. I've played games where, in order to advance, you have to play some event, but that event is only available at a certain location, at a certain time of day, with a small, random probability. That can be frustrating. Some randomness isn't necessarily horrible, particularly with idle events, but making it hard for a player to advance isn't necessarily a good thing.
7. Properly structured, they can offer the ability to repeat certain events (in the form of "idle events") that might interest players. Go back and get that lap dance again. And again.
8. Sandbox games are most effective when you have multiple interlocking quests or story threads. "Linear" games turned into sandboxes I find much less compelling. (i.e. it's just a sequence of "play this event there, then this event there" steps.) Again, this adds to development complexity, because you have to plan out all those different arcs and then figure out how they interlock.

So, bottom line, if it's going to be a good sandbox game, you're taking on a lot more work. At the same time, if you really do have multiple character arcs and you don't want the player to be forced to advance certain of them, then perhaps a sandbox is the way to go. Hard to tell without knowing more about your game.

There's a lot of interesting points here including some things I hadn't considered, such as the deliberate "repeat events" things (I always thought of repeats as undesirable but necessary evil, to act as filler if another event isn't available atm)

Thanks for the perspective

 

[Rich]

There's a lot of interesting points here including some things I hadn't considered, such as the deliberate "repeat events" things (I always thought of repeats as undesirable but necessary evil, to act as filler if another event isn't available atm)

Thanks for the perspective

Just for clarity for other readers of the thread, what I'm referring to as "idle events" (more explicitly, events at a time/place that are there just so something happens, but which don't advance the plot) are frequently a necessary evil. It's the other kind, where you've worked through to a point where you can do something and can then go back and do it again that can sometimes be interesting. They can sometimes eliminate the need for a "replay gallery."

There is an interesting "hybrid variant" between a VN and a sandbox game as well. Suppose you have a story that's more or less in VN form, but where many of the choices are of the "do you want to here or there next." You can sort of "present" this as if it was a sandbox game by having those choices be presented in "map form." (I'm probably phrasing this poorly, but maybe you'll follow the idea.) The key distinction between this and a "true" sandbox game is that only the destinations that are valid at this point are presented. Thus, the map is sort of used as an alternative to a "menu" for "where now, MC?"

 

[anne O'nymous]

There are pros and cons to sandbox games, IMHO. In no particular order:

I would add that it's a hell to update correctly, because you can't fill all the routes and in the same time effectively advance in them. Either you advance on one route, and players will complain because it's a route they don't follow, or it's not their favorite one. Or you advance in all routes, and players will complain because there's just one scene new for each one of them.
The same issue will imply that your game will feel empty for a longer time than another kind of game.

What can be a solution is to follow a route like Heavy Five or The DeLuca Family, and have both a scripted part, and a sandbox/free roaming one. You'll need more time between two updates, but the scripted part being common to all players, they'll not feel like the update is empty.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

what I'm referring to as "idle events" (more explicitly, events at a time/place that are there just so something happens, but which don't advance the plot) are frequently a necessary evil.

Can confirm.
Where I got myself into again with that prototype (there is 4 pages of that )



Around ~350 renders just for the framework lmao (26 locations so far).



That said best fun I have with renpy since a while o/
Think I'm slowly turning into madness tho

 

[amBest]

Honestly, sandboxes live and die on the quality of their implementation. Unlike a completely linear experience, or a vastly simplified "3-6 buttons for naviagation, super limited options", that only really requires the ability to frame a scene, write dialog, and pose / render models ... a sandbox requires real, honest to god, game desing.

And honestly, who here is a real game designer with 5-10 years of experience? Maybe one or two people who decided to try an inde / passion project route. But the vast majority, I think it's safe to say, are not.

To make a really good sandbox, there has to be reasons for it to be a sandbox. Liberty, freedom, multiple possibilities. Exploration and discovery, maybe repeatable events, maybe character placement in the world is super important. Schedules, events, etc.

Then on the other hand, you ABSOLUTELY - MUST - NOT - WASTE - THE - PLAYER'S - TIME. If your game is designed in such a way that you need to click on your bed to sleep on the end of the day, each and every time. And to get to your bed you have to:

1. Leave whatever building you are in. Maybe this means leaving several rooms
2. Go to the overworld map
3. Click on "Home"
4. Navigate from the front yard, to the house, to the living room, to upstairs, to your bedroom

And you have to do this every time. Oh and sometime mazes, cuz you click on arrows and people might forget where the room is. This is tedium. For me, it induces downright disgust with the game. Such a poor design, and so incredibly common. A quick solution is a "Go to sleep" button, or "go to your room, no matter where you are". And other things.

But again, the maze navigation is horrible.

Next would be the topic of searching for characters and events. How do you progress the story? What stupid fucking thing do I have to click on to make things go forward. I've jsut played such an experience today. In a certain game, I had to have a random event happen in the day. Next morning I had to make the character masturbate, but not go all the way, then go to the shower to trigger this evnet. How did I know that all these moon-logic steps were required? A fucking walk-thgrough, cuz that was pure fucking insanity, worse than the worse moon-logic puzzle games I've ever played.

So let's recap on what you have to do:

1. Give the sandbox purpose. There has to be a reason for that freedom. If the game is completely linear - event wise - and you have a sandbox, you have failed ROYALLY!
2. Your game is not a complete game. You will build it piecemeal over the course of YEARS. Your players will forget you even exist at times. Do not expect people to memorize quests, events, triggers, maze-like room layouts. You need to have a map or a system of navigation. A quest log, hints, etc.
3. Do not waste people's time. Do you think it's a good idea to make a grindy game to pretend it's not actually 10 minutes long? Look how well that works out, all of those games get like 2-3 star reviews, even if they are decent. One of my most favorite games on this site is barely hitting 3 stars because of the grind.
   1. To that end, map markers, room markers, visual indications of where characters are. You have to build all these systems and make sure they work.
   2. Have progression not be an alcohol induced nightmare. A fever dream of anti logic and magical events that make sense to the developer alone.
   3. Don't just tell the player what to do, three lines before returning from a scene to the sandbox. Don't just have hints that hold your hand the entire way. But make it so that players that return after a year hiatus are not lost

Honestly there's more I could go on about, but I think that's enough. TL;DR - takes talent, takes work, takes knowing what you're doing. You can't just luck into it. It won't work by mistake, only by design.

 

[wolfsspirit]

Like sandboxes .. more freedom and less forced routes

 

[riktor]

my main issues with most sandbox games (story or lack thereof aside) are not including a useful questlog, unnecessarily complicated navigation, and trainer like repeat events. Avoiding those and managing to weave a worthwhile story are daunting tasks.

 

[-rivo]

Some games work great with sandboxes, some it makes no sense. I would say study what successful sandbox games looked like(before mods were added) and jot down what went right, what could have been done better, and what could've been left out. Don't let one comment/review deter you while doing this, make sure it's a common theme/problem/accessory first. Good luck!

 

[anne O'nymous]

my main issues with most sandbox games (story or lack thereof aside) are not including a useful questlog, unnecessarily complicated navigation, and trainer like repeat events.

There's also the randomization.
By default I have nothing against it, since it can add some variety to the game. But this at the condition that it don't apply to critical scenes that you absolutely need to pass. If a mandatory scene happen, by example, the Wednesday, at 14, in the kitchen, and depend of a randomization, the player can perfectly be stuck for hours before he can finally advance again in the game.
At the opposite, and as I said, it can add more life to a sandbox/free roaming game if it's used more in a cosmetic way. By example by changing the character clothes, what she's doing when the player enter the room, and possibly propose few alternative to the scenes used as fillers.

I would say study what successful sandbox games looked like(before mods were added) [...]

Or look at what the most popular mods for the less successful games do. It wouldn't necessarily tell you how to do it right, but will clearly tell you what players dislike the most. And knowing what you really have to avoid is already a really useful knowledge.

 

[-rivo]

Or look at what the most popular mods for the less successful games do. It wouldn't necessarily tell you how to do it right, but will clearly tell you what players dislike the most. And knowing what you really have to avoid is already a really useful knowledge.

Agreed. There are a lot of aspects that could be investigated.

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I used this site a bunch many years ago to find pointers on how I could be more efficient. I'm sure there are many more sites like it. Just remember OP, do not get discouraged, sometimes projects flip on their heads halfway through development; ie, going from sandbox to non-linear. Always have the ground work established(the story) so it can be recycled because the chances are that the dialogue, and others, will not change.

It just depends on how you want your story to be carried, OP. Risks are a part of everything.

 

[Rafster]

It's a pretty informative thread. I can definitely see many things becoming a problem on sandboxes.

Then on the other hand, you ABSOLUTELY - MUST - NOT - WASTE - THE - PLAYER'S - TIME. If your game is designed in such a way that you need to click on your bed to sleep on the end of the day, each and every time. And to get to your bed you have to:

1. Leave whatever building you are in. Maybe this means leaving several rooms
2. Go to the overworld map
3. Click on "Home"
4. Navigate from the front yard, to the house, to the living room, to upstairs, to your bedroom

And you have to do this every time. Oh and sometime mazes, cuz you click on arrows and people might forget where the room is. This is tedium. For me, it induces downright disgust with the game. Such a poor design, and so incredibly common. A quick solution is a "Go to sleep" button, or "go to your room, no matter where you are". And other things.

This is something I must have my eyes on. I remember that someone told me that there should be a direct way to advance time on the main menu, accesible at all times. I played many sandboxes here, and I never got that idea. And it's true, we shouldn't waste the player's time on unnecessary actions.

By the way, sandboxes are a yay for me, I love them, but they are so difficult to work on ....

 

[DuniX]

If your game is simply a sex scene dispenser then sandbox is perfectly suited.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

If your game is simply a sex scene dispenser then sandbox is perfectly suited.

It doesn't really matter. One way or another tho, execution is where any game fall short or not.
(I will eat my word once I fail lmao)

 

[Boogie]

I prefer VN, but mostly because a lot of sandbox games have no reason to be a sandbox. Was playing a sandbox game last night where I had to click through 4-10 time periods every time to find a new event. And most events were completely linear. If your game has dead time, meaning the player doesn't have something to do constantly, it's just bad game design.

 

[Releasethebungus5]

I say whip