Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]
He doesn't not only manage to get aid but he went there without preparation about what could see or confront in Bloodmeen, a Wise General who Mastered The Art Of War manage to get first as much information about his enemies before an attack, and according to the information get preparations.
Any form of existing knowledge have a debt from the experience and studies of many other men that came to be before. All those information at some point was discussed and proved (if possible), making successfully the refinement of the knowledge. How the hell a commoner like Rowan would during a War surpass in knowledge all the nobility? when taking clear that peasants never get formal education even to read, much less about the correctly use about weapons like swords, mace, shields... except of course for Bows because normally some commoners didn't get enough meat and needed to search for preys in the forest, in those times the knowledge of the Art of War was teach and passed for the nobility as whole, because it was their job this kind of specialization, so again, how Rowan could get ever have a chance to rival or even surpass any achievement during War in contrast to all the nobility? it doesn't make any sense at all, even if we consider that the best student of The Art of War could make mistakes, wouldn't Rowan committed a bunch lot much more to the point to be killed during the War because he doesn't had any experience nor studies before that?.
Lord Arioch said on Patreon that there is a possibility of a new scene of that route in the September update.
This make me think, beside all the corruption Alexia can have only in this first part of the game, what it will be left for the next two Arcs?, i mean, she will become in something like Morgoth or what?.
- Feb 25, 2019
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Mommy Jezera is forgiving.
By heroes doesn't mean someone who just swings hua sword left and right here Rowan is still a strong fighter for a human and he is more of a strategist
It becomes strong meanwhile he's taking condition working for the Twins, regarding being a strategist... That's a loophole in the game, because it's told that he came from the commoners, it's like any of us could just do a better Open Heart Surgery without even touching a book of medicine than the Doctor that studied 10 years, Summa Cum Laude and with near 20 years more of experience after graduation. Cool huh!.
I really loved this game, in a way it inspired me to create my own game. I haven't played it for a long time... How many years will I have to wait until it's finished?
He's entirely on his own and the castle is in completely desolate area. No one even knows (nor believes) the demons have settled it again. The only way for him to find out what's inside i.e. get the information is to infiltrate the place, which he does. Quite skillfully, we might add, for a supposed clueless peasant you so want him to be. What do you think he should've done instead, specifically?
All knowledge is something a person comes up with at some point. And regularly it's multiple, completely different people, in different places and at different times, especially when this knowledge isn't shared. You may say it's reinventing the wheel, but it happens all the same. Just because Sun Tzu had come up with "if equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him." doesn't mean no other person ever will realize the same thing without reading the Art of War. A lot of warfare is instinctual -- it's based on common sense (and especially on "playing dirty") something the nobility is prone to lack or ignore, either because they're drilled about importance of nonsense like honor fights, or they're much more invested in pursuing political gains and power plays.
They don't know because it was post watchmen in the nearby to make sure or because nobody believe that after the War it would recover soon the demonkind so they became careless... The point is, Rowan not infiltrate, he just enter the Castle, for a successful infiltration you need to have information about the enemy, how it operates, with who make contacts, if Rowan couldn't achieve that with his nobleman "comrades" then he was in the position to do it on his own, and even if he could recover solid evidence of their recovery, his duty was report that to the Kingdom, not enter alone to rescue his wife, nonetheless, for the sake of the Story, even if he was desperate to enter because his wife was in danger, the less he could do is after seeing the movements of the enemy, he could change his appearance and try to become a worker inside the Castle, once there, recover more information and do was necessary until reach his wife with a plan for escaping in hands until they become trap by a the treason or suspicious of a worker in the Castle. This would make far more larger the prologue, but at the same time enjoyable.
And because of that Rowan it's more close to Mulan 2020 than Mulan 1998, without being a nobleman with studies about the correct use of weaponry and tactics, he could surpass anyone with studies and experience just by mere instincts, because he born like that, to be the Greatest General of all Times without committing fatal mistakes during his way to the Greatness during The War, he doesn't even had to learn because he never committed a mistake, he doesn't even had to work harder to make possible all the achievements he had on his curriculum, because he is The Chosen One (it doesn't count how it ended as a "Chosen One" during Act I of course).
What you wrote me, it makes me think that you seriously believe that anyone here can make better an Open Heart Surgery without touching a medicine book than the guy that have the study with the best acknowledgment of his generation with years of practice...
from your replies i get filing that you have some misconceptions how wars where prepared planed and waged in reality. most of time in human history lessons of war where never analyzed and mistakes where never taught to next generation and there where many reasons for it.
1)there where no standing armies for most of time so in most peaceful country's and because of that there didn't exist institutions which would give knowledge to peoples
2)art of war quite precisely describes how people sought of war mainly the "ART" part they sought that for waging wars no special knowledge was needed and aura of command was innate quality of humans
3)there wear very few chances for even for nobles to learn to lead army at best they learned from personal experience (this greatly was depended on person and most never learned anything) and most time they made very horrible conclusion or they where taught from already experience commanders .
4)most ancient wars were from strategic point of view unimageable terrible MOST commanders(nobles or equivalent ) made basic mistakes and in most cases doomed whole armies and kingdoms
5)almost all good generals were bit of lucky and lead armies from there personal experience
6)what nobles learned wasn't strategy but how to wiled weapons' and how to fight
7)i recommend you to read how crusaders fought and lost jerusalem or how romans fought against hanibal and or about any other war and i guaranty you in most cases you will finds 100 of stupid's decisions
if you read any history i guarantee you you will agree that what rowan did is quite realistic
also i think these people will greatly disagree with you
DIOCLETIAN son of a former slave became emperor
AURELIUS peasant became one of best generals of rome and emperor
liu bang peasant became rebel leader than emperor
TOYOTOMI HIDEYOSHI from peasant to ruler of japan
there are MANY more examples i can give you.
I want to end with my opinion that logically these people shouldn't been able to achieve what they achieved but with combination of there mind luck and incompetence of other people despite all odd's they managed so if rowan manages to do same its quite realistic .
sorry for bad English
That's correct, but in fact, there were the prototype before standing armies that were sometimes called as "mercenary armies", this people normally came from commoners, but they weren't use by many all the time because they weren't precisely reliable and sometimes (if not most) were undisciplined and hard to group and follow orders. Besides, they weren't stand much against a knight, as mercenaries most of them just had light armor and weapons for mobility and not the best trained is most kind of weapons.
Sun Tzu said: "The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.".
"There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:
1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army.".
"There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must be not attacked, towns which must be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed."
The thing isn't about "special knowledge" but not being a complete ignorant, Commanders were made not born.
I complete agree, there were times of peace were any form of passing knowledge would just be treat like "meh" and by this, forget-ignored until came war times and many pay the consequences.
That's true, but as you mentioned before:
"3)there wear very few chances for even for nobles to learn to lead army at best they learned from personal experience (this greatly was depended on person and most never learned anything) and most time they made very horrible conclusion or they where taught from already experience commanders ."
And we can't forget that they were still humans, for much they could study and had experience all committed mistakes. Something for what is told about Rowan during war is difficult to assimilate by taking his origins (and mostly from what we see in Act I).
Again, i complete agree, but not all of them were complete ignorant without any form of studies. Otherwise no one could just achieve something important to forge history.
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Thanks, i pretty sure they did, nonetheless as i wrote they are humans, much different from Rowan's achievements during war.
As i wrote in other post, if we were told that Rowan came from a Noble House in disgrace now in poverty it would just make a lot of sense, for me, it depends of the circumstances...
Well, Diocletian wasn't confirmed in reality from were he came from, some said as you stated, others that he was freedman while others said that he was the son of a scribe, so in a sense you can picked his origin by how much you hate him; he was acclaim Emperor by his army. Regarding Aurelius in sharing commons with Diocletian, both lived before Feudalism.
Liu Bang lived after the Fengjian, which in China in contrast with Europe was like the Middle Age with it's Feudalism. Regarding Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he lived during is considered Feudalism in Japan because a few centuries before Minamoto no Yoritomo founded the Shogunate, nonetheless, this Feudalism wasn't as the Fengjian in China nor like in Europe because it was perfectly possible to change the position in live, that was close by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he declare that any born peasant will die peasant (by taking him in a few words), and that last for at least 3 centuries.
Yes, please, because of the things i don't like of Feudalism the Cast Systems or States Systems in were anyone couldn't change his live for better. I don't know if you had played this game, i know that i wrote much the word Feudalism but that's something important to considerate, most when Rowan himself had to live that reality because it is remarked in the game when The Twins ask him for advice, to change Bloodmeen for a Feudalism full of shit system in were Rowan is given an Hereditary Tittle by The Twins or continue under the old virtue of Might Makes Right. I don't know what you choose but i get second, fuck Feudalism.
Now with that in mind, again, how a commoner like Rowan could just do all the things acknowledge to him? I don't fucking known, because for me doesn't make sense.
It can, but in Rowan's circumstances would just be very hard to be true, there's needed an explanation because by it's told of him it's just too good to felt real.
As it is still readable don't worry. Don't fear to make use of a translator from time to time. Pleased to debate with you.
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The solution to Rowan not being of a noble house but being suspiciously good at warfare in a time when warriors needed to train constantly to maintain their edge is to have him be a man-at-arms for a knight or nobleman and then to have him show skill and leadership the likes of which make him an equal to Achilles or William Marshall.
Rowan demonstrates all the virtues of a warrior in an undeniable manner in battle after battle, but being a man-at-arms he is constantly overlooked by the nobility. His comrades notice though and find they tend to stay alive when the stick close to him. In an epic battle that could decide the fate of the entire campaign when all seems lost and most of the nobles flee the field Rowan rallies the men with a cool manner and firm hand saving the army from destruction and leading them to a stunning victory. The surviving soldiers give him the Rastedal equivalent of the grass crown. The knights and men-at-arms refuse to be led by anyone else but Rowan and threaten mutiny, so the nobility begrudgingly give him command. He leads them from victory to victory until they vanquish the demon king and his howling hordes.
This explains how he got his skill, why everyone thinks he is a hero and why the nobility don't like him.
Rowan demonstrates all the virtues of a warrior in an undeniable manner in battle after battle, but being a man-at-arms he is constantly overlooked by the nobility. His comrades notice though and find they tend to stay alive when the stick close to him. In an epic battle that could decide the fate of the entire campaign when all seems lost and most of the nobles flee the field Rowan rallies the men with a cool manner and firm hand saving the army from destruction and leading them to a stunning victory. The surviving soldiers give him the Rastedal equivalent of the grass crown. The knights and men-at-arms refuse to be led by anyone else but Rowan and threaten mutiny, so the nobility begrudgingly give him command. He leads them from victory to victory until they vanquish the demon king and his howling hordes.
This explains how he got his skill, why everyone thinks he is a hero and why the nobility don't like him.
- Jun 29, 2018
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Is that an actual theory from players or your head canon? Because absolutely nothing in game hints Rowan is lying. Everyone would also have to be wrong from Jezera, Tue-Row to even Werden to the other heroes that seen him as a peer enough to fight Karnas, Rowans ability to get things done rarely seems in doubt. In game the twins recruiting him also well works. Bloodmeen is operational, they have an orc and soon goblin army, Rosaria falls and Rowan is an important part in it all. After a defeat he ended up in charge where he learnt to command and got very good at it very quickly. There isn't any ambiguity that I've seen that hints Rowan isn't a good war leader. His personal combat abilities are what shade is thrown at, he was not as formidable a combatant as the other heroes. That is literally the hold the twins have on him, they have Alexia and he can't kill them in combat. He can't even try without Alexia becoming a head shorter over it. They have him by the bollocks and he knows it he's options are suicide or service.
SOC seems medieval. Kingdoms for the majority of the dark ages and medieval times had no formalized structure to produce high level officers and generalship, that kind of system is something you mainly see in strong, very well organised and centralised states. From the fall of Rome it took Europe a long time to get back to that point. Rome especially the empire turned citizens whether city poor, farmers or nobles into skilled soldiers, centurions and generals regularly. Medieval Europe did not. Most medieval generals learnt to be good commanders during conflicts not before. They literally brought them to war young specifically to teach them how to command and get experience fighting. Someone learning how to command during a war is realistic. A peasant doing so also isn't that out there. It's not like been born a farmer means you're somehow incapable of learning war. That is quite literally the point, Rowan a common born man learnt how to command better than the nobles did which is the root of their dislike. A peasant doing that undermines the need for the nobility at all because if an exclusive warrior class can be matched by experience and training then why do it's privileges exist at all? Which is accurate, today's armies aren't commanded exclusively by knights after all.
If Rowan has a weakness and flaw it's Alexia and his willingness to be subservient to preserve her life. He should have let her and himself die but there's not much of a game if he does that
. If Rowan is a fake he's doing an extraordinary job because the two things he was set against Karnas and Rosaria didn't last very long.Pretty much; military academies as we understand them, with the goal of "producing" knowledgeable, professional officers only really appeared in 18-19th century, which coincided with introduction of universal draft and absolutely massive armies compared to earlier model. There're some insights in what things were like before it
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.And how do you imagine he should've obtained this information without entering the place to scout it?
Rowan has no duty to report anything; he's no active soldier, just a guy whose wife was kidnapped. Furthermore, he already reported the presence of demons. He wasn't believed. What makes you think he would be believed if, after a year or so, he repeated he's seen demons and they're sitting far away in evil castle?
How? Knock on the door and ask, "hey guys, i just happened to be passing by this evil abandoned castle in the middle of nowhere, that no one had any sane reason to visit for decades. Apparently, it's not abandoned anymore, are you guys hiring?"
There is no movement of the enemy for Rowan to see from the outside. The enemy uses teleport gate to leave and enter the castle, and you won't see any of that until you're actually inside.
That's an absolutely silly simile. Commanding armies in medieval times was nowhere near level of open-heart surgery, complexity wise. As evidenced by zero such surgeons in that era while there was plenty of (often clueless) military commanders.
The point is, most people in these times didn't touch any proverbial skill book, because there wasn't anything like that for them to touch. They all largely made it up as they went, on individual basis. In such environment a peasant wasn't handicapped to the point where he could never catch up and/or excel, provided they're smart enough.