Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.06] [Vénus Noire]

[fihesog318]

I have a hard time understanding the NTR on this game. In the prologue we already have Alexa choosing to cheat on Rowan. And then we go back to some progression of her deciding again to cheat to where now she is pretty much fully bought in to cheating with Andras and starting to open up to cheating with other men.

I am guessing there will be an ending to this first part of the game where Rowan finally finds out what his wife has been doing behind his back. But from a certain case that wastes a whole NTR dimension of Rowan through this whole game having hints and doubts and working to stop his wife from considering cheating on him.

The game is so big: 3 parts and ~5 years on the first part. And it is more about the plot and minor characters than about Rowan and his wife's relationship. And with it being written in parts it can feel more like short loosely connected stories than a novel. Sort of like episodic TV clashing with telling one story over an entire season of TV.

Like many TV and other fiction there are the hard core fans who will be so into the characters, plot, and world that they will be able to use their imagination to make the connections. They will wonder how this side plot relates to their favorite characters that are not present, they will wonder about the possible futures for their favorite characters, etc. But this is mostly in their own heads rather than in the plot.

On the positive side. What I am looking for is in 20 years time are stream lined visual novels based on the various major threads within Seeds of Chaos. Cut out all the supercilious and focus on the feeling, thoughts, and progressions within that much more narrow character thread (NTR Andras, Faithful couple, etc.).

 

[NewTricks]

So more ntr bullshit. Will come back to this game when you can finally kill Andras (preferably in an excruciating manner) and his slut sister. Until then the game is not worth the time spent to download it.

The sad fact is that Andreas is probably immortal. Even his father isn't really dead but rather banished to some other plane.

 

[aykarin]

I have a hard time understanding the NTR on this game. In the prologue we already have Alexa choosing to cheat on Rowan. And then we go back to some progression of her deciding again to cheat to where now she is pretty much fully bought in to cheating with Andras and starting to open up to cheating with other men.

It's because many (if not most of) Andras NTR scenes were written long ago, when the devs had a different vision of the relationship between Andras and Alexia. In the old version of this relationship, Alexia cheated with Andras during the prologue only because he tricked her. And after finding out Rowan isn't dead or didn't abandon her - she started hating Andras. So all the early NTR scenes after the prologue were built upon her animosity toward Andras resulting from being deceived. The prologue rework is a very recent thing. Now the dynamic between the two has been changed and Alexia decides to have sex with Andras despite knowing he had tricked her. But the Alexia x Andras events that trigger after the prologue are still the old ones. That's why it feels out of place. Right now Alexia basically decides to betray Rowan, then goes back to hating Andras, then decides to cheat again. As you have pointed out, it's incoherent. I hope the devs will rewrite those early Andras events to suit the new prologue.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

With Rowan, it's just "Suck my dick. No? Well, then I'll visit your wife. No? Well, then I'll just fuck off." There will need to be better scenes than that.

To be fair the last step isn't really "I'll just fuck off" its actually "I'm going to fuck you up" with how fucked up actually you get depending on how good you are at fighting.

However I actually like that scene, not as a bases for building NTR from, just for what it tells us about Rowan's situation. Essentially as long a Rowan is useful the twins can't kill him or (openly) touch his wife. Essentially they can't do anything what would make Rowan unable or unwilling to continue his duties. However, Andras is riding that line, trying to get as close to the limit as possible with out crossing over it, because they need Rowan to believe that they can and will do anything to him or his wife in order to keep him firmly under control.

It reminded me of something that happened when I was in Air Force Basic Training (boot camp) our Training Instructor (drill sergeant) was laying into our squad, yelling and threatening, and at the same time he was gesturing with a pen. Well the pen slipped out of his hand and hit one of other the trainees in the face. The instructor immediately stopped yelling and asked if the trainee was okay (he was fine) in a concerned voice. It was at that moment that I realized that despite all the threats and popular media depictions, the instructors couldn't actually do anything harm us. I mean I already kind of assumed as such on an intellectual level, but it easy to doubt when a guy with a arms bigger than both you legs combined is yelling at you, less than an inch from your face, about what he's going to do to you if you fuck up on one more time. The instructor wanted to make us believe they could and would do anything they wanted to us so that we woud keep following order with out hesitation.

I have a hard time understanding the NTR on this game. In the prologue we already have Alexa choosing to cheat on Rowan. And then we go back to some progression of her deciding again to cheat to where now she is pretty much fully bought in to cheating with Andras and starting to open up to cheating with other men.

I am guessing there will be an ending to this first part of the game where Rowan finally finds out what his wife has been doing behind his back. But from a certain case that wastes a whole NTR dimension of Rowan through this whole game having hints and doubts and working to stop his wife from considering cheating on him.

The game is so big: 3 parts and ~5 years on the first part. And it is more about the plot and minor characters than about Rowan and his wife's relationship. And with it being written in parts it can feel more like short loosely connected stories than a novel. Sort of like episodic TV clashing with telling one story over an entire season of TV.

Like many TV and other fiction there are the hard core fans who will be so into the characters, plot, and world that they will be able to use their imagination to make the connections. They will wonder how this side plot relates to their favorite characters that are not present, they will wonder about the possible futures for their favorite characters, etc. But this is mostly in their own heads rather than in the plot.

On the positive side. What I am looking for is in 20 years time are stream lined visual novels based on the various major threads within Seeds of Chaos. Cut out all the supercilious and focus on the feeling, thoughts, and progressions within that much more narrow character thread (NTR Andras, Faithful couple, etc.).

In the end we are all just theory crafting and sharing our own head canon. The truth of the matter is that no media is as deep as the fans imagine it to be. When you have so many people pouring over a piece of media analyzing every aspect they are bound to find aspects or themes that are outside anything the handful of creators ever intended.

Personally, I think it is fun to over analyze media, I like finding meanings and themes hidden inside. But you have to keep in mind that you are in fact over analyzing it and there is a pretty good chance that the creator didn't put nearly as much though into what ever it is as you are. Although that doesn't necessarily mean that the messages and themes are not there, just that the creator didn't necessarily add them in deliberately.

For example, If I say something like: "Andras represents toxic masculinity and his larger penis represents his position over Rowan in the masculine hierarchy." I doubt the writers were thinking "lets add a character to represent toxic masculinity," but at the same time Andras is certainly toxicly masculine. By the same token from Andras's penis size we can question why it is that a large penis is seen as more masculine. Compare this to ancient Greek culture where a large penis was seen as barbaric and the idealized man would have a small penis. Indeed we have seen nearly a complete reversal in that barbaric behavior in general is seen as more masculine than civilized behavior. But from the creator's side it likely amounted to "big demon gets big penis" and maybe some thought into emasculating Rowan a bit.

It's because many (if not most of) Andras NTR scenes were written long ago, when the devs had a different vision of the relationship between Andras and Alexia. In the old version of this relationship, Alexia cheated with Andras during the prologue only because he tricked her. And after finding out Rowan isn't dead or didn't abandon her - she started hating Andras. So all the early NTR scenes after the prologue were built upon her animosity toward Andras resulting from being deceived. The prologue rework is a very recent thing. Now the dynamic between the two has been changed and Alexia decides to have sex with Andras despite knowing he had tricked her. But the Alexia x Andras events that trigger after the prologue are still the old ones. That's why it feels out of place. Right now Alexia basically decides to betray Rowan, then goes back to hating Andras, then decides to cheat again. As you pointed out, it's incoherent. I hope the devs will rewrite those early Andras events to suit the new prologue.

For me it works though, the their prologue scene it is clearly the definition of a hate fuck. Alexia is angry at Andras after finding out he tricked her, but she is still really attracted to him physically. In the heat of that moment the physicality wins out, but her angry emotions are there throughout. Once their finished though, whatever the female version of the post nut clarity sets in and she immediately regrets what she's done. Now that her physical needs met she turns to just feeling hostile towards him. But afterwards, Rowan isn't taking care of her needs, and she starts getting tempted by that demon D again, because while Andras is an ass the sex was really good...

Though I guess this is also just a fan filling in the gaps with head canon to a degree, jsut like what fihesog318 was saying in his post.

 

[Kotobiki]

To be fair the last step isn't really "I'll just fuck off" its actually "I'm going to fuck you up" with how fucked up actually you get depending on how good you are at fighting.

However I actually like that scene, not as a bases for building NTR from, just for what it tells us about Rowan's situation. Essentially as long a Rowan is useful the twins can't kill him or (openly) touch his wife. Essentially they can't do anything what would make Rowan unable or unwilling to continue his duties. However, Andras is riding that line, trying to get as close to the limit as possible with out crossing over it, because they need Rowan to believe that they can and will do anything to him or his wife in order to keep him firmly under control.

It reminded me of something that happened when I was in Air Force Basic Training (boot camp) our Training Instructor (drill sergeant) was laying into our squad, yelling and threatening, and at the same time he was gesturing with a pen. Well the pen slipped out of his hand and hit one of other the trainees in the face. The instructor immediately stopped yelling and asked if the trainee was okay (he was fine) in a concerned voice. It was at that moment that I realized that despite all the threats and popular media depictions, the instructors couldn't actually do anything harm us. I mean I already kind of assumed as such on an intellectual level, but it easy to doubt when a guy with a arms bigger than both you legs combined is yelling at you, less than an inch from your face, about what he's going to do to you if you fuck up on one more time. The instructor wanted to make us believe they could and would do anything they wanted to us so that we woud keep following order with out hesitation.


In the end we are all just theory crafting and sharing our own head canon. The truth of the matter is that no media is as deep as the fans imagine it to be. When you have so many people pouring over a piece of media analyzing every aspect they are bound to find aspects or themes that are outside anything the handful of creators ever intended.

Personally, I think it is fun to over analyze media, I like finding meanings and themes hidden inside. But you have to keep in mind that you are in fact over analyzing it and there is a pretty good chance that the creator didn't put nearly as much though into what ever it is as you are. Although that doesn't necessarily mean that the messages and themes are not there, just that the creator didn't necessarily add them in deliberately.

For example, If I say something like: "Andras represents toxic masculinity and his larger penis represents his position over Rowan in the masculine hierarchy." I doubt the writers were thinking "lets add a character to represent toxic masculinity," but at the same time Andras is certainly toxicly masculine. By the same token from Andras's penis size we can question why it is that a large penis is seen as more masculine. Compare this to ancient Greek culture where a large penis was seen as barbaric and the idealized man would have a small penis. Indeed we have seen nearly a complete reversal in that barbaric behavior in general is seen as more masculine than civilized behavior. But from the creator's side it likely amounted to "big demon gets big penis" and maybe some thought into emasculating Rowan a bit.


For me it works though, the their prologue scene it is clearly the definition of a hate fuck. Alexia is angry at Andras after finding out he tricked her, but she is still really attracted to him physically. In the heat of that moment the physicality wins out, but her angry emotions are there throughout. Once their finished though, whatever the female version of the post nut clarity sets in and she immediately regrets what she's done. Now that her physical needs met she turns to just feeling hostile towards him. But afterwards, Rowan isn't taking care of her needs, and she starts getting tempted by that demon D again, because while Andras is an ass the sex was really good...

Though I guess this is also just a fan filling in the gaps with head canon to a degree, jsut like what fihesog318 was saying in his post.

I haven't played SoC in forever/latest updates, is Alexia fucking Andras first time no longer optional or something?

 

[Oriandu]

I haven't played SoC in forever/latest updates, is Alexia fucking Andras first time no longer optional or something?

It was always optional to a certain extent. However in the current set up you get to pick from two distinct options. The opening makes the passage of time between Alexia's kidnapping and Rowan's arrival more of a part of the proper events of the opening instead of a side note, which allows you to either have Alexia fall for Andras' attempt to fool her into thinking that he's not a giant, throbbing asshole or have her maintain a level of animosity towards him. You then get to pick whether or not Alexia has sex with him, which on the one hand is her falling for the temptation knowing at that point she was being tricked and Rowan was alive and Andras was not the less evil person he pretended to be, or just a straight up hate fuck.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

I haven't played SoC in forever/latest updates, is Alexia fucking Andras first time no longer optional or something?

It is still optional. The two biggest differences are 1) before Alexia automatically fell for Andras's nice guy act and started to grow close to him, now you can choose whether she falls for the act and/or becomes interested in him sexually. 2) whereas before Rowan could tell Alexia that she needed to have sex with Andras for their safety, now if you chose for Alexia to be interested in him she can choose whether or not to have sex with Andras after she has all the facts. Essentially the way it plays out is She learns Andras was lying to her when Rowan sneaks out to meet her, then when Andras shows up she confronts him. He admits it and teases her a bit for being thirsty for him. She tries to slap him, he catches her hand. Then you have two options, "Slap him" with your other hand in which case he laughs off the blow and leaves, or "Kiss him," which leads to the aforementioned hate fuck and instant regret when it is over.

It give more agency to Alexia, making her the one to choose whether or not to have sex, and it gives more agency to the player to decide how she should respond to her situation.

 

[perles75]

I honestly can't conceptualize Andras actually being able to dick Rowan well enough to NTR him. Her personality just seems too toxic for the required emotional attachment and I can't imagine Rowan would ever actually become so debased as to prefer Andras over his own wife. But then again I'm not the one writing it so it's not my job to come up with it.

It's actually not that difficult to imagine... (at least, not more than a NTR between Andras and Alexia, who starts the game as faithful and uncorrupted as Rowan -toxicity is also a valid argument for her)

A NTR path Rowan/Alexia sounds more plausible because either 1) she's a woman (and I don't think that argument stands because Rowan can easily be played as gay/closeted or bi), and 2) she's more cunning than Andras, who's more driven to a violent approach to domination.

Concerning this second point, I can easily see a rather submissive Rowan being drawn to Andras (I actually made a run like that and it fits very well). On the opposite spectrum, possibly a Rowan with tendency to violence himself, or high corruption, that wants to tame the beast or have fun with someone akin to him.

 

[Kotobiki]

Ah I see, Oriandu, Jynx_lucky_j
This honestly seems a better route since game p much constantly lampshades Alexia and Rowan falling to temptation being due to their own locked up inner desires more than anything, so giving more agency to them into walking into the corruption path makes a good deal of sense.

 

[Oriandu]

It's actually not that difficult to imagine... (at least, not more than a NTR between Andras and Alexia, who starts the game as faithful and uncorrupted as Rowan -toxicity is also a valid argument for her)

A NTR path Rowan/Alexia sounds more plausible because either 1) she's a woman (and I don't think that argument stands because Rowan can easily be played as gay/closeted or bi), and 2) she's more cunning than Andras, who's more driven to a violent approach to domination.

Concerning this second point, I can easily see a rather submissive Rowan being drawn to Andras (I actually made a run like that and it fits very well). On the opposite spectrum, possibly a Rowan with tendency to violence himself, or high corruption, that wants to tame the beast or have fun with someone akin to him.

There is no route for Rowan that feels realistically submissive. There's really only three options: defiant, defensive, and resigned. A resigned Rowan is still presented as too smart and too self aware to fall for Andras. Rowan is not a repressed housewife, he's an accomplished soldier, a skilled warrior, and a talented strategist. The game more or less tells us that Rowan was chosen because in damn near any other situation he'd be a Gary Stu, he'd be too perfect. NTR isn't just cheating, and at no point does Rowan ever seem like he's weak willed enough to lose out to Andras in the way that would be required for their relationship to be NTR.

Alexia's NTR storyline feels more realistic because of her situation, it has nothing to do with her sex or gender. We're given repeated hints that she wanted more out of life than simply to be a housewife even if she loves Rowan with all her heart, and her situation in the castle is far more contained than Rowan's is. Rowan has the option to go out into the land and work out his frustrations, to complete goals, missions, and so on. Rowan has a measure of freedom that Alexia does not because she's the one with the metaphorical gun to the back of her head. In every situation we find Rowan in he's rolling with the punches in some way, whereas if Alexia wants to experience any freedom at all she has to do it with a chaperone of some kind. Offering a chance to leave the castle is one of the ways that both Andras and Jezera first try to establish a method of control over Alexia, she's submissive by default in any interaction that involves either of the twins. Rowan is not submissive by default and even when he has no choice but to submit he's usually presented in a way that still gives him agency and effectiveness. It's that agency that makes him difficult to view as someone who would fall for any sort of NTR as Rowan always has some kind of forward momentum or escape route.

 

[fihesog318]

I think the AndrasxRowan NTR makes more sense as an extension of the AlexiaxAndras NTR where Rowan is into Andras stealing his wife away from him while also wanting to be fucked by Andras. I can't see Andras choosing Rowan over Alexia, or him choosing Rowan over Alexia and Rowan.

 

[RedPillBlues]

Will come back to this game when you can finally kill Andras (preferably in an excruciating manner) and his slut sister.

Im not sure you'll live to see that day

 

[Nazgul115]

View attachment 1729999

Surprised this isn't implemented site wide

I have never seen that, so funny.

 

[Oriandu]

View attachment 1729999

Surprised this isn't implemented site wide

Honestly it really should be a blanket rule. Far too many discussions devolve into a shouting match between people for and against NTR. It's almost as bad as the "NERRR MILKING COW NERRR!!!" arguments that overtake the topics for games like Summertime Saga on a semi regular basis. Thankfully the discussions in this topic tend to veer more towards actual discussions instead of just two sides frothing at each other.

 

[Gundamu0079]

Part of what makes NTR work is a certain level of animosity between the people involved that eventually breaks down into something else, but Andras is, well, he's a toxic piece of shit and Rowan is consistently portrayed as someone far too competent to fall for that shit. In general Rowan is not the type of fall victim to NTR. Cheating? Sure, but even though all NTR is cheating not all cheating is NTR. Even at his weakest moments Rowan is alert and aware of himself, it would have to be one hell of a fall from grace for him to submit to that BRD, or that TPV for that matter. I honestly don't think an NTR storyline makes any sort of logical sense for Rowan no matter who the partner is simply because it represents a level of weakness that Rowan has not shown at any point in the game so far. While I have absolutely no interest in the storyline or the scenes, because I'm just not into gay content, I am interested in seeing how it's done as I just don't view it as possible.

Again, though, it's a good thing I'm not writing it as if I was the one writing it then it would end with Rowan revealing he was lying the entire time as he decapitates Andras post coitus... and that wouldn't be NTR.

maybe they'll finally let rowan get the power and dominance over andras
then you can fully humilate and beat him up lol

when this game lets me be pregnant with Andreas' kids, I will be able to die happy

who do you want prego alexia or rowan lmao

 

[Zero1994]

It would be more fun to manipulate Andras with his ass so that he kills his sister en route submissive

Greetings

 

[Oriandu]

maybe they'll finally let rowan get the power and dominance over andras
then you can fully humilate and beat him up lol


who do you want prego alexia or rowan lmao

Andras could shatter every bone in Rowan's body with a single blow if he actually wanted to. We're roughly at the end of the first arc and for Rowan to actually pull off a win on a level like that would neuter Andras as a threat.

 

[Gundamu0079]

Andras could shatter every bone in Rowan's body with a single blow if he actually wanted to. We're roughly at the end of the first arc and for Rowan to actually pull off a win on a level like that would neuter Andras as a threat.

thats why i said maybe he gets some new powers or something...

 

[NewTricks]

Yeah, I don't think that Rowan can do much of anything to Andreas physically. Greyhide punched his face in and stomped him flat as a waffle and he basically just stuck his thumb in his mouth and blew himself back up like a loony toons character. If he is going to handle Andras it isn't going to be in a fistfight. Or a swordfight. Or any kind of fight.

 

[Skantarios]

Or any kind of fight.

I think we have options:

A) A divine artifact that demons are weak against (I assume they exist in Prothea, we just haven't seen them yet). I can see securing or even creating this being a big plot point in the future

B) Andras recognized he could get killed in battle(and got hurt by a bow) so he can get ganged up on by an entire army loyal to Rowan. I don't care how fast he heals, if we keep chopping limbs off something's gotta give.

C) Drop a really big rock on him, I don't know.

Andras is prideful and easy to goad into a bad fight or at least into staying in a battle that is turning against him. I honestly think Jezera is more dangerous. The moment she thinks things aren't going her way she is gonna teleport away with some BS magic artifact and will be trouble down the line. She needs to be caught completely by surprise which is of course hard as hell considering her proclivities.