Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.07] [Vénus Noire]

[Gicoo]

Already done?
Bruh the whole time i thought it barely started.
Essentially the story for me has been:
Village gets attacked.
Now you serve demons.
Train army and capture first fortress.
Capture the capital.
Recruit orc and goblin army.

And thats pretty much it.
Pretty short and lame if you ask me.
The side content and events are good but main story shoulda been focus.

Like i expected we conquer all the other realms, this is the first one and we just did it.
Still got to rebuild the capital and other fortress.
I dont have yet a single hint how do we defeat demons yet.

And this is 95-99% story done?

Developement is there, but poorly organized and slow and on multiple sections (rather than solely on he main story).
Planned are three parts. This is the first part focusing on the home country. I guess second and third part deal with conquering other nations and figuring out how to deal with the twins.
Developers get decent Patreons, so on that aspect, they have no incentive to change at all. This is going on for seven years and unless customers change significantly, this can easily go on for the next years if not decades.

 

[Mfka5]

Developement is there, but poorly organized and slow and on multiple sections (rather than solely on he main story).
Planned are three parts. This is the first part focusing on the home country. I guess second and third part deal with conquering other nations and figuring out how to deal with the twins.
Developers get decent Patreons, so on that aspect, they have no incentive to change at all. This is going on for seven years and unless customers change significantly, this can easily go on for the next years if not decades.

So this was like chapter 1 or something.
Focusing on this current realm?
Next 2 and 3 chapters are probably other realms and defeating demons?

If thats the case i think its fair i guess.
But i still doubt it very much.
Like it took them 7 years apparently to finish 1 realm. What about other ones lol...

Yeah this is getting rushed af.
And dont tell me their next game is Jessika curse or something, it looks horrible compared to this.

 

[Simbad-sea]

The game receives decently substantive updates on the last Sunday every other month like clockwork. The story is currently planned to be released in 3 parts, with each part being it's own game. This 1st game's main story is like 95-99% done. But there is still a lot of promised side content that the devs are trying to finished before officially wrapping it up.

Last word from a dev on here was that they are really striving for having it wrapped up this year, but no definite deadline at this time. Supposedly they do have some devs who have finished their parts on this game already working on the next one, and they are changing the structure of the game and their planning process to try to prevent a similar state of side content bloat from happening again in the next game.

You mean the game will be finished this year? In so many years, the game version is still 0.4. Of course I know many games that went from version 03-07 to 1.0, but it never looks like a complete game. For me it's just a copy of Summertime Saga with an endless development cycle and cash farming.

 

[gregers]

You mean the game will be finished this year? In so many years, the game version is still 0.4. Of course I know many games that went from version 03-07 to 1.0, but it never looks like a complete game. For me it's just a copy of Summertime Saga with an endless development cycle and cash farming.

The first act (of a planned three) is hoped to be finished this year. The devs have been/are working on the storylines that need wrapping up before the act break.

 

[tvout]

Not gonna lie, that nemesis system sounded kinda cool lol, with corruption system? Woa... What could've been... lol

Agreed, maybe it's something they can tack back on years down the road when(/if) the game is complete.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

You mean the game will be finished this year? In so many years, the game version is still 0.4. Of course I know many games that went from version 03-07 to 1.0, but it never looks like a complete game. For me it's just a copy of Summertime Saga with an endless development cycle and cash farming.

Software versions don't use decimals in the traditional sense. A game that is at version 0.4.xx isn't 40% complete. Instead they are counting types of changes and updates. Lets imaging a game sitting at 0.3.12 as an example. The first number (0) is the completed build. It will become 1 when the game is finished, some software may go through multiple complete builds and this number can go higher than 1. The second number (3) is the number of major updates the software has received since the last complete build. This is how many times the code has had a major change in how it functions. The third number (12) are how many minor updates the software has received since the last major update. This is stuff that doesn't change how the code functions. For this game it consists mostly of additional scenes and artwork.

Lets pretend our number has received a ton of minor updates and is sitting at 0.3.99. Then we give it another minor update. It doesn't become 0.4.0, because we still haven't put out a major update. Instead it becomes 0.3.100 because we have given it 100 minor updates since the last time we gave it a major update. The number counter only resets when a decimal above it goes up.

So this game has had 4 major updates to the mechanics of the game. But it has received a great many minor updates.

There might be 1 more major update before completion bringing it up to 0.5.xx before it jumps to 1.0.0.

 

[Simbad-sea]

The first act (of a planned three) is hoped to be finished this year. The devs have been/are working on the storylines that need wrapping up before the act break.

Begin Aug 5, 2016 Good job, man. It's unbelievable.

 

[Simbad-sea]

Software versions don't use decimals in the traditional sense. A game that is at version 0.4.xx isn't 40% complete. Instead they are counting types of changes and updates. Lets imaging a game sitting at 0.3.12 as an example. The first number (0) is the completed build. It will become 1 when the game is finished, some software may go through multiple complete builds and this number can go higher than 1. The second number (3) is the number of major updates the software has received since the last complete build. This is how many times the code has had a major change in how it functions. The third number (12) are how many minor updates the software has received since the last major update. This is stuff that doesn't change how the code functions. For this game it consists mostly of additional scenes and artwork.

Lets pretend our number has received a ton of minor updates and is sitting at 0.3.99. Then we give it another minor update. It doesn't become 0.4.0, because we still haven't put out a major update. Instead it becomes 0.3.100 because we have given it 100 minor updates since the last time we gave it a major update. The number counter only resets when a decimal above it goes up.

So this game has had 4 major updates to the mechanics of the game. But it has received a great many minor updates.

There might be 1 more major update before completion bringing it up to 0.5.xx before it jumps to 1.0.0.

I know dozens and hundreds of games where the version was in order. I know games in which from version 0.2 became 1.0 and it was always noticeable. So no, I strongly disagree.

 

[Blurpee69]

I know dozens and hundreds of games where the version was in order. I know games in which from version 0.2 became 1.0 and it was always noticeable. So no, I strongly disagree.

You're free to disagree, but in terms of how actual software is developed Jynx is 100% right. Most game developers on this site aren't also software developers, so they might not use the decimals in the same way actual developers might, but that doesn't change the fact that what Jynx describes isn't true.

 

[Nym85]

So this was like chapter 1 or something.
Focusing on this current realm?
Next 2 and 3 chapters are probably other realms and defeating demons?

If thats the case i think its fair i guess.
But i still doubt it very much.
Like it took them 7 years apparently to finish 1 realm. What about other ones lol...

Yeah this is getting rushed af.
And dont tell me their next game is Jessika curse or something, it looks horrible compared to this.

There are six realms I think. You first conquer the hero's home realm. I assume you will be facing Prothea on the final act. I'd expect the next act to have you take down three of the realms with options to at least subvert one nonviolently.

 

[Filipis]

You're free to disagree, but in terms of how actual software is developed Jynx is 100% right. Most game developers on this site aren't also software developers, so they might not use the decimals in the same way actual developers might, but that doesn't change the fact that what Jynx describes isn't true.

Jynx is technically correct, but if your game warrants 100 minor updates, then your game shouldn't have incremented the 2nd decimal point in the first place.

Going from 0.3.1 to 0.3.100 is just evidence of horrible mismanagement. Which is why you almost always want to fold some of those minor updates into the next major update.

So, technically correct, but realistically? Don't ever do that.

And 1.0 is absolutely the mark of a "finished" game. You can't in good health release a game on any given platform and call it 2.0 before the public has had the chance to play the 1.0 version, since the 2.0 marking indicates a sequel or a massive rework of core gameplay mechanics.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

I know dozens and hundreds of games where the version was in order. I know games in which from version 0.2 became 1.0 and it was always noticeable. So no, I strongly disagree.

You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change how the numbers function. That just mean that the game was already in a near final state after two major updates. Its fine if you think the game is bad, but that is still the correct way the numbers function.

I guess that I would ask you what more you think this game needs that would justify 5 more major updates just to get it up to 0.9.x just so you can feel right about it going to 1.0.0.

Edit: it also worth mentioning nc ase it wasn't clear that the the counter works the same way for major updates. If you have 9 major updates for an incomplete game you would be at 0.9.x. If you then have a 10th major update but the game is still not complete you would go to 0.10.x.

Jynx is technically correct, but if your game warrants 100 minor updates, then your game shouldn't have incremented the 2nd decimal point in the first place.

Going from 0.3.1 to 0.3.100 is just evidence of horrible mismanagement. Which is why you almost always want to fold some of those minor updates into the next major update.

So, technically correct, but realistically? Don't ever do that.

And 1.0 is absolutely the mark of a "finished" game. You can't in good health release a game on any given platform and call it 2.0 before the public has had the chance to play the 1.0 version, since the 2.0 marking indicates a sequel or a massive rework of core gameplay mechanics.

It depend on what those minor updates consist of. I've seen x.x.100+ in several times for software that was pretty much complete and it was just adding content and patching at that point. It is especially common in game were the game is complete but the content is ever ongoing. Then you can get numbers like 1.32.281. Though it certainly isn't something that is common among indy developers.

As I said in this game's minor updates are primarily content releases. Even if they updated the main story it wouldn't be a major update since it wouldn't effect the mechanics of the game at all. So once the mechanics are finished and set in stone, there will only be minor updates from that point on no matter how many there are.

But regardless I haven't seen this game get get more than a few dozen minor updates before a major one. the x.x.100 what specifically to show a theoretical example.

 

[Filipis]

It depend on what those minor updates consist of. I've seen x.x.100+ in several times for software that was pretty much complete and it was just adding content and patching at that point. It is especially common in game were the game is complete but the content is ever ongoing. Then you can get numbers like 1.32.281. Though it certainly isn't something that is common among indy developers.

As I said in this game's minor updates are primarily content releases. Even if they updated the main story it wouldn't be a major update since it wouldn't effect the mechanics of the game at all. So once the mechanics are finished and set in stone, there will only be minor updates from that point on no matter how many there are.

But regardless I haven't seen this game get get more than a few dozen minor updates before a major one. the x.x.100 what specifically to show a theoretical example.

For any videogame, content updates are not minor updates, especially so for VNs.

For x.y.z, the:
Z number is minor updates, commonly reserved for bugfixes;
Y is reserved for UX improvements and minor content updates;
X is for major UX changes and content additions.

I've never met a game that didn't follow these unwritten rules, until I visited F95 and got familiar with VNs...

 

[Simbad-sea]

You're free to disagree, but in terms of how actual software is developed Jynx is 100% right. Most game developers on this site aren't also software developers, so they might not use the decimals in the same way actual developers might, but that doesn't change the fact that what Jynx describes isn't true.

Yeah. I talked to the two guys who write the code. It happens for their work.
But I look at it from the game side. There's always something that gets cut, something that gets deleted, something that gets changed. But with games, because of that difference in numbers, it always leads to either finishing the game earlier, or missing a piece of the game / lame optimization / removing the elaboration of certain locations or characters.
If it turns out that a good portion of the game will be added upon release, I'm all for it. From what I understand from the comments, some characters are half-assed, while others are well-expanded. I haven't seen all of them, but I see an extremely small amount of artwork. Realistically few for a game like this.

 

[Simbad-sea]

You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change how the numbers function. That just mean that the game was already in a near final state after two major updates. Its fine if you think the game is bad, but that is still the correct way the numbers function.

I guess that I would ask you what more you think this game needs that would justify 5 more major updates just to get it up to 0.9.x just so you can feel right about it going to 1.0.0.

Edit: it also worth mentioning nc ase it wasn't clear that the the counter works the same way for major updates. If you have 9 major updates for an incomplete game you would be at 0.9.x. If you then have a 10th major update but the game is still not complete you would go to 0.10.x.



It depend on what those minor updates consist of. I've seen x.x.100+ in several times for software that was pretty much complete and it was just adding content and patching at that point. It is especially common in game were the game is complete but the content is ever ongoing. Then you can get numbers like 1.32.281. Though it certainly isn't something that is common among indy developers.

As I said in this game's minor updates are primarily content releases. Even if they updated the main story it wouldn't be a major update since it wouldn't effect the mechanics of the game at all. So once the mechanics are finished and set in stone, there will only be minor updates from that point on no matter how many there are.

But regardless I haven't seen this game get get more than a few dozen minor updates before a major one. the x.x.100 what specifically to show a theoretical example.

From what I understand from the comments, some characters are half-assed, while others are well-expanded. I haven't seen all of them, but I see an extremely small amount of artwork. Realistically few for a game like this.
So I'm going to trust the part that says some characters need to be expanded. But in my case, there's an extremely small number of drawings. For me, it's more a story than a game because there aren't a lot of drawings in the game.

 

[Blurpee69]

From what I understand from the comments, some characters are half-assed, while others are well-expanded. I haven't seen all of them, but I see an extremely small amount of artwork. Realistically few for a game like this.
So I'm going to trust the part that says some characters need to be expanded. But in my case, there's an extremely small number of drawings. For me, it's more a story than a game because there aren't a lot of drawings in the game.

From my understanding of the development process, the main story line was rushed to completion, and now they've turned around and are back filling a lot of the sidequests and character moments. It sounds like they're wrapping that up though and will hopefully be starting the next chapter soon-ish. I haven't downloaded the last two updates, but I think the only major side quest left is getting the goblin army to join the Twins army so that the whole city can be conquered instead of half. Though I'm sure someone that more closely follows this game than I can jump in and correct me where I'm wrong.

 

[Simbad-sea]

From my understanding of the development process, the main story line was rushed to completion, and now they've turned around and are back filling a lot of the sidequests and character moments. It sounds like they're wrapping that up though and will hopefully be starting the next chapter soon-ish. I haven't downloaded the last two updates, but I think the only major side quest left is getting the goblin army to join the Twins army so that the whole city can be conquered instead of half. Though I'm sure someone that more closely follows this game than I can jump in and correct me where I'm wrong.

Got it. I myself only remembered a few days ago that I played this game and read a few pages of comments and realized that there is no point in updating yet.
And what is the argument of the developers that the game has been stretched for 7+ years? (Other than the money argument ala SummSaga.)

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Got it. I myself only remembered a few days ago that I played this game and read a few pages of comments and realized that there is no point in updating yet.
And what is the argument of the developers that the game has been stretched for 7+ years? (Other than the money argument ala SummSaga.)

I would propose probably mostly has to do with the sheer amount of text.

Last I saw an official count, the game was a about 1.2 million word about 2.5 years ago.
And supposedly each update adds about 50-60 thousand words on average
So, even with some of that being reworked content, it has got to be pushing close to 2 million at this point.
An average novel is around 70-100 thousand words.
If a 20 book series was released across 8 years would you say that was a slow pace?

The thing is that a lot of people don't realize how much text is really here because they only see a fraction of it in a given play through. There is a lot of content that people never see because they choose to go down a different path, or the RGN doesn't prop it for them, or they don't like the character that content is based around, or it involves a kink they aren't into, or it doesn't match with their sexual preference.

I would guess that the average player probably actually sees maybe a 1/4 of the content of the game, maybe even less. Just look at the responses when a new update is released. The update will list like a dozen newly added scenes but there are always tons of people saying something along the lines of "No CharacterA/CharacterB content, not interested."

 

[Mfka5]

You can have 2 million words and yet the game feels like its at 35% completion.
You better have a good solution to fix it.
Rushing a game is not a solution.

You cant give me an intro with 2mil words and then suddenly rush it to completion cuz you screwed up

 

[Simbad-sea]

I would propose probably mostly has to do with the sheer amount of text.

Last I saw an official count, the game was a about 1.2 million word about 2.5 years ago.
And supposedly each update adds about 50-60 thousand words on average
So, even with some of that being reworked content, it has got to be pushing close to 2 million at this point.
An average novel is around 70-100 thousand words.
If a 20 book series was released across 8 years would you say that was a slow pace?

The thing is that a lot of people don't realize how much text is really here because they only see a fraction of it in a given play through. There is a lot of content that people never see because they choose to go down a different path, or the RGN doesn't prop it for them, or they don't like the character that content is based around, or it involves a kink they aren't into, or it doesn't match with their sexual preference.

I would guess that the average player probably actually sees maybe a 1/4 of the content of the game, maybe even less. Just look at the responses when a new update is released. The update will list like a dozen newly added scenes but there are always tons of people saying something along the lines of "No CharacterA/CharacterB content, not interested."

Decent. But.
The original Baldur's Gate 1 contains about 1 million words. This includes dialog, location descriptions, items, etc. The team faced a number of challenges, including the need to develop a new game engine, the Infinity Engine, which would allow for games with 3D graphics.
Development of Baldur's Gate began in 1995 and took approximately three years.

Development of Planescape: Torment began in 1997 and took about two years. The game was officially released on June 12th, 1999. The game contains about 1.5 million words, making it one of the most talked about RPGs of all time. The game's dialogue is complex and multi-layered, often presenting the player with difficult moral dilemmas.

Development of Disco Elysium began in 2015 and took about four years. The game was officially released on October 15th, 2019. The game contains about 2 million words.

Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992): 1 million words
Ultima VII: Part Two: Serpent Isle (1993): 1 million words
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992): 1 million words
Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (1993): 1 million words 1 million words
=============================================
Here we have a visual novel. Visual Novel. What a lot of problems there were back then in the early days of making games. The use of 3d. Economy. Mathematics.

And now that there are both engines and instructions, there are still questions for me about how long it took.