Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.11a Patreon] [Vénus Noire]

[Simbad-sea]

From my understanding of the development process, the main story line was rushed to completion, and now they've turned around and are back filling a lot of the sidequests and character moments. It sounds like they're wrapping that up though and will hopefully be starting the next chapter soon-ish. I haven't downloaded the last two updates, but I think the only major side quest left is getting the goblin army to join the Twins army so that the whole city can be conquered instead of half. Though I'm sure someone that more closely follows this game than I can jump in and correct me where I'm wrong.

Got it. I myself only remembered a few days ago that I played this game and read a few pages of comments and realized that there is no point in updating yet.
And what is the argument of the developers that the game has been stretched for 7+ years? (Other than the money argument ala SummSaga.)

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Got it. I myself only remembered a few days ago that I played this game and read a few pages of comments and realized that there is no point in updating yet.
And what is the argument of the developers that the game has been stretched for 7+ years? (Other than the money argument ala SummSaga.)

I would propose probably mostly has to do with the sheer amount of text.

Last I saw an official count, the game was a about 1.2 million word about 2.5 years ago.
And supposedly each update adds about 50-60 thousand words on average
So, even with some of that being reworked content, it has got to be pushing close to 2 million at this point.
An average novel is around 70-100 thousand words.
If a 20 book series was released across 8 years would you say that was a slow pace?

The thing is that a lot of people don't realize how much text is really here because they only see a fraction of it in a given play through. There is a lot of content that people never see because they choose to go down a different path, or the RGN doesn't prop it for them, or they don't like the character that content is based around, or it involves a kink they aren't into, or it doesn't match with their sexual preference.

I would guess that the average player probably actually sees maybe a 1/4 of the content of the game, maybe even less. Just look at the responses when a new update is released. The update will list like a dozen newly added scenes but there are always tons of people saying something along the lines of "No CharacterA/CharacterB content, not interested."

 

[Mfka5]

You can have 2 million words and yet the game feels like its at 35% completion.
You better have a good solution to fix it.
Rushing a game is not a solution.

You cant give me an intro with 2mil words and then suddenly rush it to completion cuz you screwed up

 

[Simbad-sea]

I would propose probably mostly has to do with the sheer amount of text.

Last I saw an official count, the game was a about 1.2 million word about 2.5 years ago.
And supposedly each update adds about 50-60 thousand words on average
So, even with some of that being reworked content, it has got to be pushing close to 2 million at this point.
An average novel is around 70-100 thousand words.
If a 20 book series was released across 8 years would you say that was a slow pace?

The thing is that a lot of people don't realize how much text is really here because they only see a fraction of it in a given play through. There is a lot of content that people never see because they choose to go down a different path, or the RGN doesn't prop it for them, or they don't like the character that content is based around, or it involves a kink they aren't into, or it doesn't match with their sexual preference.

I would guess that the average player probably actually sees maybe a 1/4 of the content of the game, maybe even less. Just look at the responses when a new update is released. The update will list like a dozen newly added scenes but there are always tons of people saying something along the lines of "No CharacterA/CharacterB content, not interested."

Decent. But.
The original Baldur's Gate 1 contains about 1 million words. This includes dialog, location descriptions, items, etc. The team faced a number of challenges, including the need to develop a new game engine, the Infinity Engine, which would allow for games with 3D graphics.
Development of Baldur's Gate began in 1995 and took approximately three years.

Development of Planescape: Torment began in 1997 and took about two years. The game was officially released on June 12th, 1999. The game contains about 1.5 million words, making it one of the most talked about RPGs of all time. The game's dialogue is complex and multi-layered, often presenting the player with difficult moral dilemmas.

Development of Disco Elysium began in 2015 and took about four years. The game was officially released on October 15th, 2019. The game contains about 2 million words.

Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992): 1 million words
Ultima VII: Part Two: Serpent Isle (1993): 1 million words
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992): 1 million words
Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (1993): 1 million words 1 million words
=============================================
Here we have a visual novel. Visual Novel. What a lot of problems there were back then in the early days of making games. The use of 3d. Economy. Mathematics.

And now that there are both engines and instructions, there are still questions for me about how long it took.

 

[Blurpee69]

Decent. But.
The original Baldur's Gate 1 contains about 1 million words. This includes dialog, location descriptions, items, etc. The team faced a number of challenges, including the need to develop a new game engine, the Infinity Engine, which would allow for games with 3D graphics.
Development of Baldur's Gate began in 1995 and took approximately three years.

Development of Planescape: Torment began in 1997 and took about two years. The game was officially released on June 12th, 1999. The game contains about 1.5 million words, making it one of the most talked about RPGs of all time. The game's dialogue is complex and multi-layered, often presenting the player with difficult moral dilemmas.

Development of Disco Elysium began in 2015 and took about four years. The game was officially released on October 15th, 2019. The game contains about 2 million words.

Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992): 1 million words
Ultima VII: Part Two: Serpent Isle (1993): 1 million words
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992): 1 million words
Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (1993): 1 million words 1 million words
=============================================
Here we have a visual novel. Visual Novel. What a lot of problems there were back then in the early days of making games. The use of 3d. Economy. Mathematics.

And now that there are both engines and instructions, there are still questions for me about how long it took.

I don't disagree with you entirely here, but just to play devil's advocate. The difference in those games compared to this game is that they had full development teams working on those games as full time jobs. As far as I know, and again someone with more knowledge feel free to correct me. Seeds of Chaos is like 7-10 people working on the game in their spare time, two of whom are strictly artists.

 

[gregers]

Hello,

This error appears for me at week ten at Cla-Min's store when trying to access the "Ploys" tab.
Any idea how to fix or prevent this error from happening?

Thanks and regards,

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/000statements.rpy", line 670, in execute_call_screen
    store._return = renpy.call_screen(name, *args, **kwargs)
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 1, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 1, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 236, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 237, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 243, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 245, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 262, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 262, in <module>
NameError: name 'week_no' is not defined

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "game/main_loop.rpyc", line 73, in script call
  File "game/locations/rowans_chambers.rpyc", line 103, in script call
  File "game/locations/caravan.rpyc", line 43, in script
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\ast.py", line 2259, in execute
    self.call("execute")
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\ast.py", line 2241, in call
    return renpy.statements.call(method, parsed, *args, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\statements.py", line 342, in call
    return method(parsed, *args, **kwargs)
  File "renpy/common/000statements.rpy", line 670, in execute_call_screen
    store._return = renpy.call_screen(name, *args, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\exports.py", line 3347, in call_screen
    rv = renpy.ui.interact(mouse="screen", type="screen", roll_forward=roll_forward)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\ui.py", line 299, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\core.py", line 3587, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, pause=pause, pause_start=pause_start, pause_modal=pause_modal, **kwargs) # type: ignore
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\core.py", line 4060, in interact_core
    root_widget.visit_all(lambda d : d.per_interact())
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\core.py", line 684, in visit_all
    d.visit_all(callback, seen)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\core.py", line 684, in visit_all
    d.visit_all(callback, seen)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\core.py", line 684, in visit_all
    d.visit_all(callback, seen)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\screen.py", line 476, in visit_all
    callback(self)
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\core.py", line 4060, in <lambda>
    root_widget.visit_all(lambda d : d.per_interact())
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\screen.py", line 487, in per_interact
    self.update()
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Seeds of Chaos\renpy\display\screen.py", line 680, in update
    self.screen.function(**self.scope)
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 1, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 1, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 236, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 237, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 243, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 245, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 262, in execute
  File "game/screens/shop_screen.rpy", line 262, in <module>
NameError: name 'week_no' is not defined

Windows-10-10.0.22621 AMD64
Ren'Py 8.1.2.23090503
Seeds of Chaos 0.4.02
Sun Jan  7 19:16:37 2024

I had the same thing and found that I could work around it by picking the 'Tools' tab before the 'Ploys' tab for some reason.

 

[Simbad-sea]

I don't disagree with you entirely here, but just to play devil's advocate. The difference in those games compared to this game is that they had full development teams working on those games as full time jobs. As far as I know, and again someone with more knowledge feel free to correct me. Seeds of Chaos is like 7-10 people working on the game in their spare time, two of whom are strictly artists.

Baldur's Gate - During this time, BioWare's team of just 25 people worked to create a game based on the rules of the tabletop RPG Dungeons & Dragons. The team faced a number of challenges, including the need to develop a new game engine, the Infinity Engine, which would allow for the creation of games with three-dimensional graphics.

Planescape: Torment - According to various sources, approximately 35-40 people worked on the game. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.

Disco Elysium - According to various sources, about 20 people worked on Disco Elysium. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.
Robert Kurwitz - lead writer and designer
Alexander Schulz - Technical Director
Mihkel Pärt - Composer

Ultima VII: The Black Gate - the exact number is unknown.
Ultima VII: Part Two: Serpent Isle - exact number unknown.
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss employed about 20 people. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.
Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds employed about 20 people. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.

And we're talking about composers, animators, concept-artists, and programmers. I think we agree here that in terms of complexity of development, code, animation and 3D programming, SoC is easier?

 

[gregers]

There's an error in the cla_act1_finale event in v. 4.01, dunno if it's been fixed:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Edit: Just downloaded 4.02 and (once I found a save that would load) it has indeed been fixed—although the claminChildren variable only gets set (to False) if Rowan says no; saying yes leaves it undefined. And conversely, saying no leaves the claminGobboBride variable undefined rather than setting it to False.

 

[gregers]

Even if Rowan (and Alexia) has rejected X'zaratl at every turn, she still refers to having made him happy "the last time" during the xzaratl_guilt_solution event.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Helayna's second dream (hel_nightmare_2) depends on itself to trigger.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

A minor issue, but the torlTea variable for accepting Torlene's tea during the save_liurial is set the wrong way round:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I see that there's an event on file for cucking Helayna with Liurial (helCuckqueanLiur) but there's no option to do so in the menu in helayna_a_cuckquean

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Blurpee69]

Baldur's Gate - During this time, BioWare's team of just 25 people worked to create a game based on the rules of the tabletop RPG Dungeons & Dragons. The team faced a number of challenges, including the need to develop a new game engine, the Infinity Engine, which would allow for the creation of games with three-dimensional graphics.

Planescape: Torment - According to various sources, approximately 35-40 people worked on the game. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.

Disco Elysium - According to various sources, about 20 people worked on Disco Elysium. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.
Robert Kurwitz - lead writer and designer
Alexander Schulz - Technical Director
Mihkel Pärt - Composer

Ultima VII: The Black Gate - the exact number is unknown.
Ultima VII: Part Two: Serpent Isle - exact number unknown.
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss employed about 20 people. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.
Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds employed about 20 people. This includes programmers, designers, artists, cleaners, composers, and writers.

And we're talking about composers, animators, concept-artists, and programmers. I think we agree here that in terms of complexity of development, code, animation and 3D programming, SoC is easier?

Again, I don't entirely disagree with you 7 years is an extreme amount of time. My point was that the teams for those games were all professionals whose sole job was to work on those games. Unless I'm mistaken, the development team for Seeds of Chaos are all doing it in their free time. They update routinely and that is commendable, but it isn't the same as a full team working 40+ hours a week on a game.

 

[Filipis]

Again, I don't entirely disagree with you 7 years is an extreme amount of time. My point was that the teams for those games were all professionals whose sole job was to work on those games. Unless I'm mistaken, the development team for Seeds of Chaos are all doing it in their free time. They update routinely and that is commendable, but it isn't the same as a full team working 40+ hours a week on a game.

Ehh... as usual these things are nigh-impossible to calculate with any precision, but rough estimates can certainly paint a not-so-pretty picture for us laymans, no?

• Yes, those games had a larger team of professionals working on the game with regular hours, but you have to look at the final product - those games, when finished, contained dozens or even hundreds of hours of gameplay.
• Yes, Seeds of Chaos is being worked on by a smaller "studio", but it is also much smaller in scope. What is the maximum mileage that you can get out the current version of SoC? I doubt it crosses the 20hr mark...

All this said and done, Seeds of Chaos is nothing but a victim of feature creep and poor management. It happens.
It doesn't mean it isn't frustrating or that people don't have a right to protest.

However, you also hold the right not to keep funding the development either. It appears a lot of people are okay with a 7-year development cycle & hundreds of dollars of investment for about 15hrs of gameplay.

And people wonder why the gaming industry is in such a horrible state these days.

 

[Simbad-sea]

Again, I don't entirely disagree with you 7 years is an extreme amount of time. My point was that the teams for those games were all professionals whose sole job was to work on those games. Unless I'm mistaken, the development team for Seeds of Chaos are all doing it in their free time. They update routinely and that is commendable, but it isn't the same as a full team working 40+ hours a week on a game.

I'm sorry, do they get paid "for free" or for the work they do? Is the Patreon subscription to pay people for nothing?
The ones I described started when there was little to no development at all. Somewhere pioneers, somewhere enthusiasts. Even now, it's not easy to find a development professional, even then.

 

[andybc]

Ehh... as usual these things are nigh-impossible to calculate with any precision, but rough estimates can certainly paint a not-so-pretty picture for us laymans, no?

• Yes, those games had a larger team of professionals working on the game with regular hours, but you have to look at the final product - those games, when finished, contained dozens or even hundreds of hours of gameplay.
• Yes, Seeds of Chaos is being worked on by a smaller "studio", but it is also much smaller in scope. What is the maximum mileage that you can get out the current version of SoC? I doubt it crosses the 20hr mark...

All this said and done, Seeds of Chaos is nothing but a victim of feature creep and poor management. It happens.
It doesn't mean it isn't frustrating or that people don't have a right to protest.

However, you also hold the right not to keep funding the development either. It appears a lot of people are okay with a 7-year development cycle & hundreds of dollars of investment for about 15hrs of gameplay.

And people wonder why the gaming industry is in such a horrible state these days.

Hours of gameplay does not equal scope. Take Uncharted for example, that game is massive in terms of resources spent, but playtime is ~10 hours. Either way, it's silly to compare triple A professionals to a bunch people who do this on the side.

But I agree that they have mismanaged this very poorly, they tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one. The amount of things that have been reworked is staggering. I've subbed to them in the past, but now I haven't even bothered to download the last year of updates.

 

[jaybae01]

Why is there so much hate towards Andras? I love his scenes the best with both Alexia and Rowan...he gets me real wet

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Why is there so much hate towards Andras? I love his scenes the best with both Alexia and Rowan...he gets me real wet

Because he's Mr. Stealyourgirl. Its a visceral reaction that some people have to NTR content. But in the end it is just a very vocal minority, in actuallity his scenes with Alexia is some of the most popular content in the game.

 

[HentaiGamerN00b]

Why is there so much hate towards Andras?

Because he's Mr. Stealyourgirl. Its a visceral reaction that some people have to NTR content. But in the end it is just a very vocal minority, in actuallity his scenes with Alexia is some of the most popular content in the game.

Beyond that surface, because Andras seriously ask Rowan's for trouble and when he's not searching, then he make new ones that makes you lose troops literally... At least, Jezera in comparison the most worst usually she does is asking for whatever money or wine during raids, which makes you lose moral, but with Andras is a complete lose, of moral and even troops.

I love his scenes the best with both Alexia and Rowan...

There's only one scene i recall in which Andras stand me good, when he ask Rowan how he likes women... In which they can sympathies each other. Respecting Alexia, i always makes her fall way low instincts into High Corruption for him.

he gets me real wet

Cool for you

 

[HentaiGamerN00b]

Huh. Well, tbh, i find it impossible for the NTR tag to make itself more obvious if Alexia was not the focus of the "one being stolen by others". Since Helayna was just originally Rowan's student of sorts. Also, i guess the dev can't help the situation much since Alexia, the red-head wife was just such a seductive and spicy character that she became an instant hit with those who openly fund the game. Thus making her the FMC (Female Main Character) of the game. Well, i can't deny the part of both husband and wife trying to play a game of cuck and seek with one another but i really hope Rowan would stop being such a clueless f*ck just once and actually catch Andras breeding Alexia non-stop. Would he feel betrayed? Would he feel regretful? Would he feel guilty of not being capable of giving Alexia a bunch of kids? Now that is a food for thought.

Well Rowan could have something for Netorase, as he consent Alexia having a relationship with the minotaur

 

[Marc9]

I haven't played this one yet, but I've seen some prints on the internet and I want to ask if the images of Rowan being passive during gay sex with an orc and another demon red and showing Alexia in the background watching belong to the game or are they fan inventions?

And another question I have is that I saw on the game's official website that Seed of Chaos would be the first in a trilogy and I ask if these other games have already been released or will be yet?

 

[FlamingZelda]

Bullshit game

 

[vandal.h]

...in actuallity his scenes with Alexia is some of the most popular content in the game.

In patreon polls. Does the dev poll whats popular with steam players? Also NTR lovers are united in their love for Alexia X Andras but the Rowan Harem lovers are divided between multiple options.