Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.09] [Vénus Noire]
- May 1, 2021
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Thanks Jynx_lucky_j for that nice hit of deliciously thoughtful forum content.
I have similar views on X'zaratl, but I've never articulated them so precisely. It was a fun discussion to have with her in game and fun to hear your analysis of it.
What is your take on the new Liurial situation? What is your impression of Jezera's angle here. Does she even have one or is she just being childish? I'm guessing both; since that is usually how it goes- interested in your take though.
I'm also interested in other folks take on the Cla-min arc. It was actually rather whimsical and wholesome; a simultaneously dysfunctional yet functional family hiest. I liked that aspect of it to be honest. So much of Rowan's content is just suffering. Talking to some Goblins and starting some shenanigans against more minor villians was a nice reprieve from that. The idea that a mage can track someone through the artifacts was interesting. Also, I really want to know what they do ;-). Its two rings- so I kinda wonder exactly what the angle is there- are we choosing who to give them to? Is it a Marriage arc?
I have similar views on X'zaratl, but I've never articulated them so precisely. It was a fun discussion to have with her in game and fun to hear your analysis of it.
What is your take on the new Liurial situation? What is your impression of Jezera's angle here. Does she even have one or is she just being childish? I'm guessing both; since that is usually how it goes- interested in your take though.
I'm also interested in other folks take on the Cla-min arc. It was actually rather whimsical and wholesome; a simultaneously dysfunctional yet functional family hiest. I liked that aspect of it to be honest. So much of Rowan's content is just suffering. Talking to some Goblins and starting some shenanigans against more minor villians was a nice reprieve from that. The idea that a mage can track someone through the artifacts was interesting. Also, I really want to know what they do ;-). Its two rings- so I kinda wonder exactly what the angle is there- are we choosing who to give them to? Is it a Marriage arc?
- May 1, 2021
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I'm still not convined that Liurial isn't actually just part of an elaborate scheme by Jezebel. But I'm also starting to think I'm just caught in a
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prison. She makes sure to let Rowan know that she has schemes and spies running around him, just enough to make us question what is and isn't a scheme and who we can and can't trust. Clearly not everything can be a scheme and not everyone can be a spy, but we are forced to act as if that is the case. My personal pet theory is that Liurial is a spy for Jezera, but eventually catches feeling for Rowan and turns on her. I don't have any proof to back it up, I just think it would be a good narrative. But if we assume that is not the case, and that everything going on is largely as it seems... I would say that it is a case of Jezera threatening things Rowan cares about. Alexia is a pretty good tool in that regard, but if their relationship starts to deteriorate, or Rowan finds out Andras has been successful in seducing his wife, or Alexia starts growing fond of minotaurs or fishmen, or that she fucked some random goblins at her barmaid job, or... Well lets just say that it might be a good idea to have some extra strings on him that she can still use to keep him compliant.
I like that we are starting to get some non-sex based characterization of our cast of characters. It really helps develop them as people. And it gives more of a reason for Rowan to chaff less at his captivity. These sorts of interaction show that he is developing actual relationships and not simply having momentary lapses in judgment when some one flashes their tits at him. I'll be interested in where Cla-min's story goes long term since she seems pretty dead set on bringing Rowan into the family. However I imagine that would be a pretty hard sell for Alexia, who seems to have taken an instant dislike to Cla-min (it probably didn't help that Cla-Min pretty much introduced herself as Ms. StealYourMan).
- Feb 25, 2019
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- Apr 26, 2021
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Jynx_lucky_j
Liurial Thoughts)
I view the Liurial arc inversely. Though it is very much a possibility and there are significant breadcrumbs left to indicate it could be the case- I don't think Liu is a spy for Jez. Partaily due to Occam's razor, but in part simply because we already have that narrative in so many other places. It would be the same arc as Alexia x Jez, and Shaya x Jez- so I'm rather expecting a different narrative here. Those arcs built up our expectations about what it will be- and then BAM Winter hits us with a right hook of a different variety. The stage is well set for either narrative to be the case- it has certainly created a lot of good tension in the storytelling.
Tertiary consideration regarding Jez harem building for rowan as a method of control;
We've seen Jezera do this repeatedly with weak characters she thinks Rowan will be attached to. This is the part of the tale that disconnects with the idea of Liurial not being a spy- why would Jezera be such a pain in the ass to Rowan about Liu if she wanted them to be close so she had collateral influence. I guess I simply dismissed it as Jezera's flighty nature kinda shooting herself in her own foot- as she is wont to do.
Final considerations;
It could all be an elaborate ruse and leaving the extra spying equipment / harassment could easily be a misdirect; I just don't know if Jez would be being so petulant if things were going in her favor already- she tends to be the most childish when she doesn't have something she wants; and she is being super childish here.
Addendum;
Hopefully Rowan takes that bug or fake bug to Cilonia for Analysis to figure out exactly how it was supposed to function. Maybe he can gain command of it and repurpose it- or finds out it was a fake so Jez was messing with him in another way. That'd be fun.
Cla Min Thoughts)
Yes, very much this. Until recently if you had no sexual interest in an NPC arc you really didn't get very much of the NPCs story. But now we have deep story arcs with Draith, Liu, and Cla. Even if you turn them down sexually- which is great. Some of the other arcs are relatively unsatisfying if you don't like the sexual aspect.
Liurial Thoughts)
I view the Liurial arc inversely. Though it is very much a possibility and there are significant breadcrumbs left to indicate it could be the case- I don't think Liu is a spy for Jez. Partaily due to Occam's razor, but in part simply because we already have that narrative in so many other places. It would be the same arc as Alexia x Jez, and Shaya x Jez- so I'm rather expecting a different narrative here. Those arcs built up our expectations about what it will be- and then BAM Winter hits us with a right hook of a different variety. The stage is well set for either narrative to be the case- it has certainly created a lot of good tension in the storytelling.
Tertiary consideration regarding Jez harem building for rowan as a method of control;
We've seen Jezera do this repeatedly with weak characters she thinks Rowan will be attached to. This is the part of the tale that disconnects with the idea of Liurial not being a spy- why would Jezera be such a pain in the ass to Rowan about Liu if she wanted them to be close so she had collateral influence. I guess I simply dismissed it as Jezera's flighty nature kinda shooting herself in her own foot- as she is wont to do.
Final considerations;
It could all be an elaborate ruse and leaving the extra spying equipment / harassment could easily be a misdirect; I just don't know if Jez would be being so petulant if things were going in her favor already- she tends to be the most childish when she doesn't have something she wants; and she is being super childish here.
Addendum;
Hopefully Rowan takes that bug or fake bug to Cilonia for Analysis to figure out exactly how it was supposed to function. Maybe he can gain command of it and repurpose it- or finds out it was a fake so Jez was messing with him in another way. That'd be fun.
Cla Min Thoughts)
Yes, very much this. Until recently if you had no sexual interest in an NPC arc you really didn't get very much of the NPCs story. But now we have deep story arcs with Draith, Liu, and Cla. Even if you turn them down sexually- which is great. Some of the other arcs are relatively unsatisfying if you don't like the sexual aspect.
- Oct 17, 2017
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My planned resolution of the Act 1 Liurial arc should be entirely predictable exclusively using the details from the 4 main events already in place.
Honestly, I doubt either is outright a spy. (Though I haven't played the latest release yet, so any new events might contain further crumbs I'm not operating with.) X'zaratl's whole schtick being an act would make her "I'm a Rowlexia shipper!" redesign a lot weirder and less interesting. They could maybe write it so these two things aren't mutually exclusive, but her acting as NTR route detox makes that pretty hard to do. (This is never mind the fact that it would have to completely invalidate her functioning AS a detox mechanic, I assume? Since I don't go those routes, my only experience with that is from skipping through the sex scene via the replay mod.)
As diebesgrab notes, Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan (He has some earlier scenes that brush up against that, but nothing nearly as overt as Liurial). "Character tries to spy on dominant character by pretending to be submissive to them, gets caught and dominated harder" can definitely work (Filiane is my favorite Bunny Black 2 character for a reason), but putting her in that Intro To BDSM role and re-writing her scenes to contain actual aftercare makes it a lot harder to do that in a satisfying way.
However, this all ignores that there's a third option. Either or both could be part of Jezera's plans without being her agent. It's entirely possible Jezera passed on Liurial knowing she'd probably seek Rowan as her next choice instead of going to Andras, at which point Jezera can try to use Liurial (knowing or not) as an in. Or as just another hostage to threaten should Rowan think about betraying the twins. Meanwhile if Jezera wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia (Spoiler: Yes), X'zaratl's obsession with their relationship and desire to "broaden" it is a useful secondary angle of attack. Even if the couple resists Jezera's "I want you to be my toys" line of corruption, X'zaratl's earnest fangirling corruption could soften them up for her.
There's a lot of grey between "spy" and "not part of Jezera's plans to screw with Rowan/Alexia."
As diebesgrab notes, Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan (He has some earlier scenes that brush up against that, but nothing nearly as overt as Liurial). "Character tries to spy on dominant character by pretending to be submissive to them, gets caught and dominated harder" can definitely work (Filiane is my favorite Bunny Black 2 character for a reason), but putting her in that Intro To BDSM role and re-writing her scenes to contain actual aftercare makes it a lot harder to do that in a satisfying way.
However, this all ignores that there's a third option. Either or both could be part of Jezera's plans without being her agent. It's entirely possible Jezera passed on Liurial knowing she'd probably seek Rowan as her next choice instead of going to Andras, at which point Jezera can try to use Liurial (knowing or not) as an in. Or as just another hostage to threaten should Rowan think about betraying the twins. Meanwhile if Jezera wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia (Spoiler: Yes), X'zaratl's obsession with their relationship and desire to "broaden" it is a useful secondary angle of attack. Even if the couple resists Jezera's "I want you to be my toys" line of corruption, X'zaratl's earnest fangirling corruption could soften them up for her.
There's a lot of grey between "spy" and "not part of Jezera's plans to screw with Rowan/Alexia."
- Apr 26, 2021
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Damn you winter. Now you've got me like.....
And very nervous for a bad end I won't like
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- Apr 26, 2021
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The only current way to get the detox event is by going all in on and proccing the rest of the X'zaratl events. You need a lot of X'zaratl influence points to get the event to go off. It doesn't curretly have any relation to NTR- its just a long term plan for the event to have multiple triggers- and NTR pathing will be one of them. I do hope they loosen the proverbial "reins" on getting the Guilt_Solutions X'zaratl event to proc though- it is so hard to encounter unless you play with high levels of degeneracy. I can think of lots of reasons Rowan could be feeling guilty that Alexia could be whipping him for- without getting to 30 guilt or w/e.
I don't think anyone considering X as having alterior motives believes she is a spy for the twins or anything- rather that she may have her own personal motive that goes beyond the scope of what is obvious to the players and we might get hit by like a long con at the end of her arc. Like the rhyming couplet at the end of an English sonnet- it may reverse the whole narrative in some interesting way.
Ah, I conflated the two character conversations. Honestly, given how much time I spend reloading the page as opposed to actually being able to read it, I'm surprised I wasn't even further muddling things.
Edit: That said, a previous point in the X'zaratl discussion was her being or not being "on Rowan's side." I think my thought process still holds there. I think even if she has further, hidden considerations or reasons (Probable, that's what character arcs are about), having her not at least THINK she's on Rowan/Alexia's side weakens the interesting direction her re-write went.
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- Apr 26, 2021
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Right- I agree. I think she is on their side 100%. But there are underlying motivations we don't understand and they may conflict with Rowans goals or create some other layer of drama- even if she wants to be good to them. If that makes any sense?
Also: Quote: " Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan " Semantics; you sir are hilarious and accurate ;-p
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- May 5, 2020
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I agree with the theory Futacubus is doing the long con. I think she wants a demon child with Rowan
- May 1, 2021
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I might not have explained myself very well so just for some clarification:
I don't think Liurial is in anyways a spy in the same way Shaya is a spy, she isn't a trained agent or anything. My thought was that she was she pretty much exactly as she appears to be. However I thought that Jezera had in fact got to her first and became her mistress. Jezera then tells Liurial to visit Rowan and tell him her story, and then she is to serve him and simply report back to Jezera if she sees anything unusual while serving Rowan. In this theory, Liurial is 95% genuine. But of course I believe it even less now that T51bwinterized has made his post, but that was my thought process.
As for X'zaratl I think she is largely working independent of the twins but its fine because her goals are friendly to the twins' goals. She clearly wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia but in her mind she is doing it for their own good. Their relationship would be sooo much better and strong if it was just like in her erotic fanfics. Of course how Rowan and Alexia feel about that depends largely own you own individual playthrough, but I think it is safe to say that the Rowan and Alexia from the prologue would not be down for whatever X'zaratl's end game is. What I'm trying to say is X'zaratl my think she is on their side, but that isn't something she can just decide herself if they disagree.
I don't think Liurial is in anyways a spy in the same way Shaya is a spy, she isn't a trained agent or anything. My thought was that she was she pretty much exactly as she appears to be. However I thought that Jezera had in fact got to her first and became her mistress. Jezera then tells Liurial to visit Rowan and tell him her story, and then she is to serve him and simply report back to Jezera if she sees anything unusual while serving Rowan. In this theory, Liurial is 95% genuine. But of course I believe it even less now that T51bwinterized has made his post, but that was my thought process.
As for X'zaratl I think she is largely working independent of the twins but its fine because her goals are friendly to the twins' goals. She clearly wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia but in her mind she is doing it for their own good. Their relationship would be sooo much better and strong if it was just like in her erotic fanfics. Of course how Rowan and Alexia feel about that depends largely own you own individual playthrough, but I think it is safe to say that the Rowan and Alexia from the prologue would not be down for whatever X'zaratl's end game is. What I'm trying to say is X'zaratl my think she is on their side, but that isn't something she can just decide herself if they disagree.
- Feb 25, 2019
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If X’zaratl doesn’t have ulterior motives I’m gonna be super disappointed in the writers, given the way they’ve portrayed demons in general and succubi in particular. I don’t think the fangirl schtick is necessarily an act—it’d be way too obvious of one, if it were—but I think she definitely wants things for herself that the reader isn’t yet privy to, and I’d also be surprised if it were just a kid—again, that would be too clumsily foreshadowed if that were the only thing she was after. Given what we’ve seen of her character both before and after the rewrite, I’d say she’s playing her own game in this war entirely separate from what Jezera, Andras, or Rowan are doing, but I couldn’t tell you what as yet.
As you said, "I imagine" that goes for both of us but in different direction because as you state "I saw no indication that his transformation was meant to be a long term change", there is still no indication of the contrary, X'zaratl is still the only "Sexual Demon" that have both sexes openly (the pair extra arms count if we are mainly focus of genitalia?) while the rest of them seems to be corrupted by the normies >:v by showing openly sexual preferences. Maybe X'zaratl is the example of what a conservative of their species is, by showing their original biology as they are while the rest of the youngs perverted in the habits and customs of the normies because this youngters see them exotic, based in what you wrote "In fact there is a new X’Zaratl scene in which she explains that for them the concept of being one gender or another is a foreign concept to them."; so X'zaratl could be a conservative of their people with a long age comes with a mind that resist changes while the youngsters are showing sexual preferences... There is a possibility that this Demon Dude just have take chocolate ice cream but never Vainilla flavor... And he was corrupted by Rowan ;v... Just remember, the fun of this game and mainly central theme is basically corruption, and developers never said that Rowan (the so called "Hero") can corrupt someone else for good or evil or stupid purposes (the last one i put it because i remember discussing last night in whatsapp about philosophy, and why stupidity was worse than evil
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Did you try yet the Game Over Guide - Early Game Guide?... Old but helps a lot... My recommendation is to ignore the desires of Andras of conquer by using brute force, it's more difficult at the beginning by the chances of random ways of succeed in collection of resources to waste them only in a pathetic military force by the stupids desires of the most dumb of the twins...
- Sep 1, 2017
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