Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.10] [Vénus Noire]

[monk_56]

Thanks Jynx_lucky_j for that nice hit of deliciously thoughtful forum content.

I have similar views on X'zaratl, but I've never articulated them so precisely. It was a fun discussion to have with her in game and fun to hear your analysis of it.

What is your take on the new Liurial situation? What is your impression of Jezera's angle here. Does she even have one or is she just being childish? I'm guessing both; since that is usually how it goes- interested in your take though.

I'm also interested in other folks take on the Cla-min arc. It was actually rather whimsical and wholesome; a simultaneously dysfunctional yet functional family hiest. I liked that aspect of it to be honest. So much of Rowan's content is just suffering. Talking to some Goblins and starting some shenanigans against more minor villians was a nice reprieve from that. The idea that a mage can track someone through the artifacts was interesting. Also, I really want to know what they do ;-). Its two rings- so I kinda wonder exactly what the angle is there- are we choosing who to give them to? Is it a Marriage arc?

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

What is your take on the new Liurial situation? What is your impression of Jezera's angle here. Does she even have one or is she just being childish? I'm guessing both; since that is usually how it goes- interested in your take though.

I'm still not convined that Liurial isn't actually just part of an elaborate scheme by Jezebel. But I'm also starting to think I'm just caught in a

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prison. She makes sure to let Rowan know that she has schemes and spies running around him, just enough to make us question what is and isn't a scheme and who we can and can't trust. Clearly not everything can be a scheme and not everyone can be a spy, but we are forced to act as if that is the case.

My personal pet theory is that Liurial is a spy for Jezera, but eventually catches feeling for Rowan and turns on her. I don't have any proof to back it up, I just think it would be a good narrative. But if we assume that is not the case, and that everything going on is largely as it seems... I would say that it is a case of Jezera threatening things Rowan cares about. Alexia is a pretty good tool in that regard, but if their relationship starts to deteriorate, or Rowan finds out Andras has been successful in seducing his wife, or Alexia starts growing fond of minotaurs or fishmen, or that she fucked some random goblins at her barmaid job, or... Well lets just say that it might be a good idea to have some extra strings on him that she can still use to keep him compliant.

I'm also interested in other folks take on the Cla-min arc. It was actually rather whimsical and wholesome; a simultaneously dysfunctional yet functional family hiest. I liked that aspect of it to be honest. So much of Rowan's content is just suffering. Talking to some Goblins and starting some shenanigans against more minor villians was a nice reprieve from that. The idea that a mage can track someone through the artifacts was interesting. Also, I really want to know what they do ;-). Its two rings- so I kinda wonder exactly what the angle is there- are we choosing who to give them to? Is it a Marriage arc?

I like that we are starting to get some non-sex based characterization of our cast of characters. It really helps develop them as people. And it gives more of a reason for Rowan to chaff less at his captivity. These sorts of interaction show that he is developing actual relationships and not simply having momentary lapses in judgment when some one flashes their tits at him. I'll be interested in where Cla-min's story goes long term since she seems pretty dead set on bringing Rowan into the family. However I imagine that would be a pretty hard sell for Alexia, who seems to have taken an instant dislike to Cla-min (it probably didn't help that Cla-Min pretty much introduced herself as Ms. StealYourMan).

 

[diebesgrab]

I could be misremembering, but I seem to recall one of the devs mentioning that Liurial is strictly for maledom Rowan content. Not saying that can’t change, but it seems like she’s presenting herself more or less honestly for now.

 

[monk_56]

Jynx_lucky_j

Liurial Thoughts)
I view the Liurial arc inversely. Though it is very much a possibility and there are significant breadcrumbs left to indicate it could be the case- I don't think Liu is a spy for Jez. Partaily due to Occam's razor, but in part simply because we already have that narrative in so many other places. It would be the same arc as Alexia x Jez, and Shaya x Jez- so I'm rather expecting a different narrative here. Those arcs built up our expectations about what it will be- and then BAM Winter hits us with a right hook of a different variety. The stage is well set for either narrative to be the case- it has certainly created a lot of good tension in the storytelling.

Tertiary consideration regarding Jez harem building for rowan as a method of control;
We've seen Jezera do this repeatedly with weak characters she thinks Rowan will be attached to. This is the part of the tale that disconnects with the idea of Liurial not being a spy- why would Jezera be such a pain in the ass to Rowan about Liu if she wanted them to be close so she had collateral influence. I guess I simply dismissed it as Jezera's flighty nature kinda shooting herself in her own foot- as she is wont to do.

Final considerations;
It could all be an elaborate ruse and leaving the extra spying equipment / harassment could easily be a misdirect; I just don't know if Jez would be being so petulant if things were going in her favor already- she tends to be the most childish when she doesn't have something she wants; and she is being super childish here.

Addendum;
Hopefully Rowan takes that bug or fake bug to Cilonia for Analysis to figure out exactly how it was supposed to function. Maybe he can gain command of it and repurpose it- or finds out it was a fake so Jez was messing with him in another way. That'd be fun.

Cla Min Thoughts)
Yes, very much this. Until recently if you had no sexual interest in an NPC arc you really didn't get very much of the NPCs story. But now we have deep story arcs with Draith, Liu, and Cla. Even if you turn them down sexually- which is great. Some of the other arcs are relatively unsatisfying if you don't like the sexual aspect.

 

[T51bwinterized]

My planned resolution of the Act 1 Liurial arc should be entirely predictable exclusively using the details from the 4 main events already in place.

 

[rivon]

My planned resolution of the Act 1 Liurial arc should be entirely predictable exclusively using the details from the 4 main events already in place.

Soooooo Helayna this update or we are not done with Liurial?

 

[Semantics]

Honestly, I doubt either is outright a spy. (Though I haven't played the latest release yet, so any new events might contain further crumbs I'm not operating with.) X'zaratl's whole schtick being an act would make her "I'm a Rowlexia shipper!" redesign a lot weirder and less interesting. They could maybe write it so these two things aren't mutually exclusive, but her acting as NTR route detox makes that pretty hard to do. (This is never mind the fact that it would have to completely invalidate her functioning AS a detox mechanic, I assume? Since I don't go those routes, my only experience with that is from skipping through the sex scene via the replay mod.)

As diebesgrab notes, Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan (He has some earlier scenes that brush up against that, but nothing nearly as overt as Liurial). "Character tries to spy on dominant character by pretending to be submissive to them, gets caught and dominated harder" can definitely work (Filiane is my favorite Bunny Black 2 character for a reason), but putting her in that Intro To BDSM role and re-writing her scenes to contain actual aftercare makes it a lot harder to do that in a satisfying way.

However, this all ignores that there's a third option. Either or both could be part of Jezera's plans without being her agent. It's entirely possible Jezera passed on Liurial knowing she'd probably seek Rowan as her next choice instead of going to Andras, at which point Jezera can try to use Liurial (knowing or not) as an in. Or as just another hostage to threaten should Rowan think about betraying the twins. Meanwhile if Jezera wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia (Spoiler: Yes), X'zaratl's obsession with their relationship and desire to "broaden" it is a useful secondary angle of attack. Even if the couple resists Jezera's "I want you to be my toys" line of corruption, X'zaratl's earnest fangirling corruption could soften them up for her.

There's a lot of grey between "spy" and "not part of Jezera's plans to screw with Rowan/Alexia."

 

[monk_56]

My planned resolution of the Act 1 Liurial arc should be entirely predictable exclusively using the details from the 4 main events already in place.

Damn you winter. Now you've got me like.....

And very nervous for a bad end I won't like

 

[monk_56]

Honestly, I doubt either is outright a spy. (Though I haven't played the latest release yet, so any new events might contain further crumbs I'm not operating with.) X'zaratl's whole schtick being an act would make her "I'm a Rowlexia shipper!" redesign a lot weirder and less interesting. They could maybe write it so these two things aren't mutually exclusive, but her acting as NTR route detox makes that pretty hard to do. (This is never mind the fact that it would have to completely invalidate her functioning AS a detox mechanic, I assume? Since I don't go those routes, my only experience with that is from skipping through the sex scene via the replay mod.)

The only current way to get the detox event is by going all in on and proccing the rest of the X'zaratl events. You need a lot of X'zaratl influence points to get the event to go off. It doesn't curretly have any relation to NTR- its just a long term plan for the event to have multiple triggers- and NTR pathing will be one of them. I do hope they loosen the proverbial "reins" on getting the Guilt_Solutions X'zaratl event to proc though- it is so hard to encounter unless you play with high levels of degeneracy. I can think of lots of reasons Rowan could be feeling guilty that Alexia could be whipping him for- without getting to 30 guilt or w/e.

I don't think anyone considering X as having alterior motives believes she is a spy for the twins or anything- rather that she may have her own personal motive that goes beyond the scope of what is obvious to the players and we might get hit by like a long con at the end of her arc. Like the rhyming couplet at the end of an English sonnet- it may reverse the whole narrative in some interesting way.

 

[Semantics]

I don't think anyone considering X as having alterior motives believes she is a spy for the twins or anything- rather that she may have her own personal motive that goes beyond the scope of what is obvious to the players and we might get hit by like a long con at the end of her arc. Like the rhyming couplet at the end of an English sonnet- it may reverse the whole narrative in some interesting way.

Ah, I conflated the two character conversations. Honestly, given how much time I spend reloading the page as opposed to actually being able to read it, I'm surprised I wasn't even further muddling things.

Edit: That said, a previous point in the X'zaratl discussion was her being or not being "on Rowan's side." I think my thought process still holds there. I think even if she has further, hidden considerations or reasons (Probable, that's what character arcs are about), having her not at least THINK she's on Rowan/Alexia's side weakens the interesting direction her re-write went.

 

[monk_56]

Ah, I conflated the two character conversations. Honestly, given how much time I spend reloading the page as opposed to actually being able to read it, I'm surprised I wasn't even further muddling things.

Edit: That said, a previous point in the X'zaratl discussion was her being or not being "on Rowan's side." I think my thought process still holds there. I think even if she has further, hidden considerations or reasons (Probable, that's what character arcs are about), having her not at least THINK she's on Rowan/Alexia's side weakens the interesting direction her re-write went.

Right- I agree. I think she is on their side 100%. But there are underlying motivations we don't understand and they may conflict with Rowans goals or create some other layer of drama- even if she wants to be good to them. If that makes any sense?

Also: Quote: " Liurial is basically the starter kit for a more maledom Rowan " Semantics; you sir are hilarious and accurate ;-p

 

[Mmushy]

I agree with the theory Futacubus is doing the long con. I think she wants a demon child with Rowan

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

I might not have explained myself very well so just for some clarification:

I don't think Liurial is in anyways a spy in the same way Shaya is a spy, she isn't a trained agent or anything. My thought was that she was she pretty much exactly as she appears to be. However I thought that Jezera had in fact got to her first and became her mistress. Jezera then tells Liurial to visit Rowan and tell him her story, and then she is to serve him and simply report back to Jezera if she sees anything unusual while serving Rowan. In this theory, Liurial is 95% genuine. But of course I believe it even less now that T51bwinterized has made his post, but that was my thought process.

As for X'zaratl I think she is largely working independent of the twins but its fine because her goals are friendly to the twins' goals. She clearly wants to corrupt Rowan and Alexia but in her mind she is doing it for their own good. Their relationship would be sooo much better and strong if it was just like in her erotic fanfics. Of course how Rowan and Alexia feel about that depends largely own you own individual playthrough, but I think it is safe to say that the Rowan and Alexia from the prologue would not be down for whatever X'zaratl's end game is. What I'm trying to say is X'zaratl my think she is on their side, but that isn't something she can just decide herself if they disagree.

 

[diebesgrab]

If X’zaratl doesn’t have ulterior motives I’m gonna be super disappointed in the writers, given the way they’ve portrayed demons in general and succubi in particular. I don’t think the fangirl schtick is necessarily an act—it’d be way too obvious of one, if it were—but I think she definitely wants things for herself that the reader isn’t yet privy to, and I’d also be surprised if it were just a kid—again, that would be too clumsily foreshadowed if that were the only thing she was after. Given what we’ve seen of her character both before and after the rewrite, I’d say she’s playing her own game in this war entirely separate from what Jezera, Andras, or Rowan are doing, but I couldn’t tell you what as yet.

 

[HentaiGamerN00b]

While I'm sure the cubi do develop their own preferences over time, for most of them it doesen't seem to be a very strong preference (see the new X'zaratl_Gender_Debates scene). It it closer to their favorite ice-cream flavor than an important part of their identify.

But he didn't change to hide his identity, he changed so Rowan could say "no homo." His deal with Rowan was that he would be found innocent and one of the other cubi would take the fall. So there is absolutely no reason he needs a new identity. Also he enjoys getting fucked just as much if you let him stay a male. Like all other cubi, he just enjoys fucking regardless of what side of it he is on. If he had really identified as a male, there would likely have been at least a token of resistance or hesitancy when he was asked to change. I saw no indication that his transformation was meant to be a long term change, and I imagine that it only lasted until the cubi's mood changed again.

To use my above ice cream anology:
Cubi: If you let me go I'll eat some chocolate ice cream with you.
Rowan: I want vanilla ice cream.
Cubi: Deal!
Both: Mmm that's some good ice cream.

As you said, "I imagine" that goes for both of us but in different direction because as you state "I saw no indication that his transformation was meant to be a long term change", there is still no indication of the contrary, X'zaratl is still the only "Sexual Demon" that have both sexes openly (the pair extra arms count if we are mainly focus of genitalia?) while the rest of them seems to be corrupted by the normies >:v by showing openly sexual preferences. Maybe X'zaratl is the example of what a conservative of their species is, by showing their original biology as they are while the rest of the youngs perverted in the habits and customs of the normies because this youngters see them exotic, based in what you wrote "In fact there is a new X’Zaratl scene in which she explains that for them the concept of being one gender or another is a foreign concept to them."; so X'zaratl could be a conservative of their people with a long age comes with a mind that resist changes while the youngsters are showing sexual preferences... There is a possibility that this Demon Dude just have take chocolate ice cream but never Vainilla flavor... And he was corrupted by Rowan ;v... Just remember, the fun of this game and mainly central theme is basically corruption, and developers never said that Rowan (the so called "Hero") can corrupt someone else for good or evil or stupid purposes (the last one i put it because i remember discussing last night in whatsapp about philosophy, and why stupidity was worse than evil )

Spoiler: Gender Discussion

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[Orochi94]

Please, i can't skip week 60 , Game Over
What to do please ?

 

[HentaiGamerN00b]

Please, i can't skip week 60 , Game Over
What to do please ?

Did you try yet the Game Over Guide - Early Game Guide?... Old but helps a lot... My recommendation is to ignore the desires of Andras of conquer by using brute force, it's more difficult at the beginning by the chances of random ways of succeed in collection of resources to waste them only in a pathetic military force by the stupids desires of the most dumb of the twins...

 

[ReaperMan30]

Does anyone know the new console commands? How do I adjust alexia's stats?

 

[rivon]

As T51bwinterized preparing for Helayna plot line update .
I wanted to make my comprehensive take on what i think can be improved with Helayna content.
We don't have yet preview of what Winter think he gonna change with Helayna plot line and more importantly how extensive this changes gonna be.
But here is my take

In general
I dislike idea of her completely losing her mind the moment she done the ring and not having at least some self awareness.
Art and writing should try to convey more complex emotions than fuck doll happy getting off.
Art direction from Winter in my opinion should concentrate more on Helayna conflicting emotions.
Her fear, hesitation, shame, self loathing (she basically should be disappointed with herself as she failed to resist) and her hidden desires amplified by the ring influence. Have to show her inner struggle with ring that compels her to obey.
Her desperately trying to get control back over her body and mind. Illustrate her mental collapse basically how she get consumed by lust.
Sommy should try to visualize in her Facial expressions how ring influence breaks her.
I think it will help if during scenes perspectives switch from Rowan to Helayna and back (her Point of view).
Obviously its much harder pulling off but again that is the point of rework and improvement.
That will give some punch and drama to the events.
Its pivotal point in her story Ark i think it needed to get extra attention form Sommy and Winter.
Making the hole thing more emotionally charged.

And speaking about some scenes in particular:

1) Raeve keep
During her capture she break immediately and give no resistance. It feels anti climactic somehow.
Scene with orcs/ knights should be more about her disgust and shame fighting with her lust emanated from the ring.

Spoiler: trying to resist ...

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Spoiler: ..And failing

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Spoiler: alternative face (make her mellow down face)

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This will be much better dynamics then rag doll submission.
Culminating with her finally being defeated by her lust completely by the end of the scene.

Orc should be more abusive. She just killed some of them during castle assault they want to take there revenge on her.
Signaling Rowan that he should step up. That would be more dramatic even tragic.
And not just "its hot in armor" and "please take me i'm yours"

2) Helayna escape
Disproportionate options.
While when Alexia help Helayna escape we get the hole loads of content:
Rowan punishing Alexia/She get thrown to Wulump and then Andras helps himself with her.

On Rowan road on the other hand we get nothing , obviously no one going to do it because there is nothing to see.
Maybe include at least one sex scene on Rowan road?

Spoiler: here's the example:

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Rowan see her being humiliated by orcs in the Arena.
Orcs mock her and give her Practice wooden sword and some skimpy armor and urge her to try and fight them and if she wins they will "let her go".
Will be nice and dirty. Obviously she fails and get gang banged. This will illustrate her desperate situation and prompt good natured player to help her escape.

3) Helayna rape dinner.
The only thing we get from this scene is Helayna being humiliated.
Helayna in love with Rowan right? Andras and Jazera aware of that. This why they put this show.
Twins aim at Rowan here not at Helayna. If so lets play this card.
Helayna should be more emotional about being fucked in front of her idolized hero.

Spoiler: mix of shame and what he gonna think about me

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Usual game.
Her trying to hide her face in hands Andras not so gently removing those hands.
She communicate with Rowan asking him not to watch.
Basically more interaction with two people this scene is all about!
She threw her head back while cuming.

Spoiler: example

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Andras grab her hair showing her face "let him see your face whore."

Spoiler: example

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This kind of things. Make Andras more Cruel and aggressive as he IS. Every simp hate Andras for that so make him more Assholish here. He would not miss the opportunity to throw it at Rowan.

4) I hope there will be Helayna bad ending when she fail to escape.
If Rowan didnt provide her with potions or failed to retrieve her armor.
She get captured by some roaming gang of monster (trolls or ogres) in wasteland.

 

[T51bwinterized]

As T51bwinterized preparing for Helayna plot line update .
I wanted to make my comprehensive take on what i think can be improved with Helayna content.
We don't have yet preview of what Winter think he gonna change with Helayna plot line and more importantly how extensive this changes gonna be.
But here is my take

In general
I dislike idea of her completely losing her mind the moment she done the ring and not having at least some self awareness.
Art and writing should try to convey more complex emotions than fuck doll happy getting off.
Art direction from Winter in my opinion should concentrate more on Helayna conflicting emotions.
Her fear, hesitation, shame, self loathing (she basically should be disappointed with herself as she failed to resist) and her hidden desires amplified by the ring influence. Have to show her inner struggle with ring that compels her to obey.
Her desperately trying to get control back over her body and mind. Illustrate her mental collapse basically how she get consumed by lust.
Sommy should try to visualize in her Facial expressions how ring influence breaks her.
I think it will help if during scenes perspectives switch from Rowan to Helayna and back (her Point of view).
Obviously its much harder pulling off but again that is the point of rework and improvement.
That will give some punch and drama to the events.
Its pivotal point in her story Ark i think it needed to get extra attention form Sommy and Winter.
Making the hole thing more emotionally charged.

And speaking about some scenes in particular:

1) Raeve keep
During her capture she break immediately and give no resistance. It feels anti climactic somehow.
Scene with orcs/ knights should be more about her disgust and shame fighting with her lust emanated from the ring.

Spoiler: trying to resist ...

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Spoiler: ..And failing

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: alternative face (make her mellow down face)

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

This will be much better dynamics then rag doll submission.
Culminating with her finally being defeated by her lust completely by the end of the scene.

Orc should be more abusive. She just killed some of them during castle assault they want to take there revenge on her.
Signaling Rowan that he should step up. That would be more dramatic even tragic.
And not just "its hot in armor" and "please take me i'm yours"

2) Helayna escape
Disproportionate options.
While when Alexia help Helayna escape we get the hole loads of content:
Rowan punishing Alexia/She get thrown to Wulump and then Andras helps himself with her.

On Rowan road on the other hand we get nothing , obviously no one going to do it because there is nothing to see.
Maybe include at least one sex scene on Rowan road?

Spoiler: here's the example:

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Rowan see her being humiliated by orcs in the Arena.
Orcs mock her and give her Practice wooden sword and some skimpy armor and urge her to try and fight them and if she wins they will "let her go".
Will be nice and dirty. Obviously she fails and get gang banged. This will illustrate her desperate situation and prompt good natured player to help her escape.

3) Helayna rape dinner.
The only thing we get from this scene is Helayna being humiliated.
Helayna in love with Rowan right? Andras and Jazera aware of that. This why they put this show.
Twins aim at Rowan here not at Helayna. If so lets play this card.
Helayna should be more emotional about being fucked in front of her idolized hero.

Spoiler: mix of shame and what he gonna think about me

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Usual game.
Her trying to hide her face in hands Andras not so gently removing those hands.
She communicate with Rowan asking him not to watch.
Basically more interaction with two people this scene is all about!
She threw her head back while cuming.

Spoiler: example

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Andras grab her hair showing her face "let him see your face whore."

Spoiler: example

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

This kind of things. Make Andras more Cruel and aggressive as he IS. Every simp hate Andras for that so make him more Assholish here. He would not miss the opportunity to throw it at Rowan.

4) I hope there will be Helayna bad ending when she fail to escape.
If Rowan didnt provide her with potions or failed to retrieve her armor.
She get captured by some roaming gang of monster (trolls or ogres) in wasteland.

Absent any of your specific scene ideas, I think that the failure of what you're saying is that Helayna's narrative exists both for herself and in the context of a larger and more complete narrative. In a story that is about Helayna, her own struggles and conflict vs the ring must always be at the forefront. And that material is there...in the second half of her story. But Helayna losing her mind in the early stages of her capture exists as much as a narrative conundrum for other charachters as for herself. And to that end, the emphasis ought to be on the elements that highlight that struggle.

I also think such a thing actually risks cheapening the story, because it lacks conceptual vision. What does a person do when confronted with the concept of the self as a non-actor? How does one mentally confront their past actions when they truly had no agency? Do they even comprehend it as being an extension of the self? So over-emphasizing the extent of agency and "losing the struggle" runs a risk of turning a more novel concept into something more standard. It also provides something of a conceptual safety blanket. "She really did always have a choice, so there is no need to truly reckon with an absence of free-will".

Basically, what you describe would turn Helayna's story (insofar as she is a charachter with a story that isn't Rowan's) into something like a story about becoming corrupted (which we have plenty of). But, Helayna's story isn't a corruption story.

This is, I think, a major reason why lots and lots of suggestions people make for narrative here and elsewhere don't end up getting accepted. A story element or story beat may or may not be pleasurable in of itself. But, it exists for a narrative purpose, and all these narrative purposes intersect. So most of the time, when I or other people on the team are considering certain story beats the question we often ask is "to what end?"