Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.11a Patreon] [Vénus Noire]

[ffive]

When I sat with Winter to discuss what exactly we need for Jezera content, he requested that it contains a degree of rivalry, hostility. Jezera is one of the two main antagonists, and since I’m a femdom fan, he expressed concern that I would turn Rowan into a bitch boi. I on the other hand highlighted how a majority of Jezera fans want to be a bitch boi for her. Like, Jezera’s plot is not for people who want Maledom, it’s for people who want to be dominated by a sexy, toxic, whimsical demon mistress. But Winter did have a point, for SoC plot to make sense Rowan cannot be a complete bitch boi to Jezera all the time, and has to be able to push back.

I'd have to side with Winter on this one. I don't know if the majority really wants to be utterly dominated doormats, but for me the most enjoyable interactions with Jezera was the ability to resist in both her early events -- the one where she demands a massage and offers Rowan to make him cum, and the other one where he can declare he won't betray Alexia to which Jezera concludes not too worry, she'll just break/seduce both of them. These made the most narrative sense long term, when followed by Jezera corrupting Alexia over the course of the game, and Rowan slowly turning into someone who starts to entertain the thought of participating in the events Jezera arranges for him and possibly fucking as somewhat equal partners* (the dinner for Rowan to relax, etc)

This isn't to say Jezera eventually wrapping Rowan around her finger can't ever happen in such scenario, but having it as (optionally) a long process would definitely be up some people's alley, too.

*) this aspect (the 'somewhat equal partners' thing) also makes me think it might be a mistake to think of Rowan's paths as either Sub or Dom. Because as you note, Jezera doesn't strike me as someone who'd tolerate attempts to be pushed into sub role herself. So i'd rather approach this as Sub or Resisting paths, with the latter having Jezera acknowledge that Rowan has *some* agency in their relationship and when told to jump can give some input instead of merely asking, how high.

 

[Nym85]

What is your game/head canon ?What choices did your Rowan/Alexia have made?
In my story Rowan is a virtuous hero with a set of morals that he never forgets.He is loyal to Alexia(except for Helayna because he needed to save her).He is even ready to use Chaos Magic just to make her happy.Alexia on the hand is someone who lost her way in bloodmeen she basically became a toy for Andras.

If Rowan is a virtuous hero, then he kills himself (because they may have magic to actually compel him instead of just blackmail him) or just refuses to cooperate whatever may happen to Alexia. This is not really a complex ethical conundrum. You don't even need to get to Rastedel; you will have helped demons and orcs sack villages and sell people to slavery weeks before Helayna's castle falls, let alone destroy a large city. There is no coherent ethical argument, be it deontological or teleological for Rowan to continue helping the twins; you'd need to fully embrace some form of Randian Egoism of "Screw you I got Mine" to suggest otherwise. At most I can see him dying trying to get Helayna or Werden the message that Kharnas' children are alive and have sacked Bloodmeen.

You are not "good" Rowan. You are asshole Rowan who places his and his wife's lives above hundreds if not thousands of others but has some arbitrary limits on how much evil he will allow under his command. It's just hypocrisy.

 

[TheSexinati]

Whether Rowan is Dom or Sub I do not care all that much...

The Jezz must flow!

 

[ffive]

If Rowan is a virtuous hero, then he kills himself (because they may have magic to actually compel him instead of just blackmail him) or just refuses to cooperate whatever may happen to Alexia. This is not really a complex ethical conundrum.

Oh, it's actually not so simple.

There's nothing virtuous about causing Alexia to suffer, and it requires one to subscribe to "the lives/needs of many are worthy more than lives/needs of a few" which is arguable in terms of morals.

Killing self also doesn't in any way ensure Alexia's well-being and doesn't address the actual problem of demons seeking to conquer the world with the world being completely unaware. Dead Rowan can't influence demons' actions, can't help anyone they'll target, and can't ultimately defeat them. It's essentially cowardice and inaction, neither being virtues.

 

[TheSexinati]

The true answer is that Rowan was meant to live. How else would he have entered the path to Greyhide?

Greyhide is the true protagonist of the game. Without his light, without the sheer power of his Bromanship... the game would be but bleak and dull and full of darkness...

Oh Greyhide please shine your brightness upon us and deliver us from Evil... may the multitudes of players follow forth on your illustrious path to attaining happiness! Amen!

 

[Rein]

So i'd rather approach this as Sub or Resisting paths, with the latter having Jezera acknowledge that Rowan has *some* agency in their relationship and when told to jump can give some input instead of merely asking, how high.

That is more or less what I'm going for, I just used Dom/Sub because it's simpler to explain.

 

[Nym85]

Oh, it's actually not so simple.

There's nothing virtuous about causing Alexia to suffer, and it requires one to subscribe to "the lives/needs of many are worthy more than lives/needs of a few" which is arguable in terms of morals.

Killing self also doesn't in any way ensure Alexia's well-being and doesn't address the actual problem of demons seeking to conquer the world with the world being completely unaware. Dead Rowan can't influence demons' actions, can't help anyone they'll target, and can't ultimately defeat them. It's essentially cowardice and inaction, neither being virtues.

The life of ONE, who also happens to be your loved one vs the lives of many is not at all arguable, sorry. You can choose to actively help the twins torture and murder hundreds if not thousands of people or you know, don't.

 

[manscout]

The life of ONE, who also happens to be your loved one vs the lives of many is not at all arguable, sorry. You can choose to actively help the twins torture and murder hundreds if not thousands of people or you know, don't.

Yeah, I think the only argument that holds for Rowan's actions from a selfless perspective would be that by being in service of the Twins he is reducing the overall casualties, in the sense that his good management reduces the overall suffering on both sides in conflicts that were ultimately unavoidable.

Of course that is a very narrow line between Rowan improving things by containing the damage and he actually just being complicit and enabling of the Twins' ambitions. I haven't played the game with the intro rewrites, but my understanding is that now the writing makes it clearer the Twins have a fully functional operation even without Rowan's involvement, which to me means that everything up to Rastedel's conquest would have still been attainable by the Twins even if Rowan had refused to help them, just significantly more bloody and messy, which makes it hard to gauge if Rowan's contributions were a "good" thing or not and remains to be seen based on its effects in the future.

 

[ffive]

The life of ONE, who also happens to be your loved one vs the lives of many is not at all arguable, sorry.

Oh, but it is.

Let's run a quick theoretical scenario, shall we?

You're given a choice between one person losing their dominant hand, vs couple people losing theirs. Seems like a no-brainer, right? Bigger number clearly wins if we go with your logic.

Now, what if i tell you that one person is a world-famous painter whose works bring joy to millions, while these others never used their hands for anything but feeding themselves and maybe wanking? Is it still purely a numbers game, or does personal merit suddenly begin to play a part? And if so, at what point numbers outweigh merit?

Of course, this can be easily complicated further. What if these who don't contribute to society are, at best, teenagers while the artist is an adult? What if the adult is a woman but teenagers are boys? What if one of the boys is your own son? What if the woman is your wife? Simply looking at numbers is never going to paint even a sketch of the situation, much less a full picture.

But, perhaps most importantly... why are you even entertaining the idea you're entitled to decide which of these people is more deserving than others? Because that's nothing but hubris. And that's, if anything, an opposite of virtue and something "virtuous hero" should never display.

So, the bottom line would be, by accepting demons' deal Rowan has a chance to save some people. Refusing, he effectively condemns them all to unrestrained demons' whims. Yet you're arguing the latter is what a virtuous hero would do.

 

[ffive]

That is more or less what I'm going for, I just used Dom/Sub because it's simpler to explain.

That's a relief; seems to be enough people who hold position that Rowan should be eventually ordering the demon twins around, dominating them for real, so one could never be sure :v

 

[Fleep]

When I sat with Winter to discuss what exactly we need for Jezera content, he requested that it contains a degree of rivalry, hostility. Jezera is one of the two main antagonists, and since I’m a femdom fan, he expressed concern that I would turn Rowan into a bitch boi. I on the other hand highlighted how a majority of Jezera fans want to be a bitch boi for her. Like, Jezera’s plot is not for people who want Maledom, it’s for people who want to be dominated by a sexy, toxic, whimsical demon mistress. But Winter did have a point, for SoC plot to make sense Rowan cannot be a complete bitch boi to Jezera all the time, and has to be able to push back. Which in itself is a challenge, because Jezera as a characters doesn’t accept being talked back to. So it would have to be a careful balancing act of Rowan being snarky and resisting her, but not to the point where Jezera, for her to stay true to her character, just slaps him silly for it.

I want nothing more than to be Jezera's bitch boi, so you're 100% right.

 

[Nym85]

Yeah, I think the only argument that holds for Rowan's actions from a selfless perspective would be that by being in service of the Twins he is reducing the overall casualties, in the sense that his good management reduces the overall suffering on both sides in conflicts that were ultimately unavoidable.

Of course that is a very narrow line between Rowan improving things by containing the damage and he actually just being complicit and enabling of the Twins' ambitions. I haven't played the game with the intro rewrites, but my understanding is that now the writing makes it clearer the Twins have a fully functional operation even without Rowan's involvement, which to me means that everything up to Rastedel's conquest would have still been attainable by the Twins even if Rowan had refused to help them, just significantly more bloody and messy, which makes it hard to gauge if Rowan's contributions were a "good" thing or not and remains to be seen based on its effects in the future.

I mean given that we see the Twins are actually incompetent and Andras would have self destructed the army and Jezera would have scared off all allies, I am not so sure.

 

[aykarin]

When I sat with Winter to discuss what exactly we need for Jezera content, he requested that it contains a degree of rivalry, hostility. Jezera is one of the two main antagonists, and since I’m a femdom fan, he expressed concern that I would turn Rowan into a bitch boi. I on the other hand highlighted how a majority of Jezera fans want to be a bitch boi for her. Like, Jezera’s plot is not for people who want Maledom, it’s for people who want to be dominated by a sexy, toxic, whimsical demon mistress.

Yeah, that's exactly why Jezera is my favorite character in this game

 

[manscout]

I mean given that we see the Twins are actually incompetent and Andras would have self destructed the army and Jezera would have scared off all allies, I am not so sure.

The Twins have character flaws that make them somewhat incompetent at some of their functions as rulers, but they also have their talents as well as pretty powerful magic. More importantly though is to keep in mind that their opposition so far has been just as incompetent as them, if not more.

I haven't played the game in a long while and I'm not familiar with all of the recent changes, also I forget some names so forgive me on that, but lets breakdown Rowan's contributions:

Taking Raeve's keep - that was just a test for Rowan, the Twins alone could have taken the keep if they wanted to but they wanted to see if Rowan was capable.

Creating a network of supporting villages and mines - they probably wouldn't have been able to do this as smoothly without Rowan, but the importance of those is more to create a supply network for the future, as of conquering Rastedel this asset has not been critical yet.

Recruiting the local orc army - Rowan was helpful in doing this, but realistically the leadership of the orc army was already unstable. Even in the scenario where Rowan frees Delane and doesn't make any alliances for the Twins, Tarish gets rid of the other 2 orc warlords and then makes an alliance with Andras to consolidate her own leadership. Maybe the timing of everything wouldn't have worked as perfectly without Rowan, but worst case scenario Andras just bashes enough heads until Tarish or another warlord is willing to bend the knee. Would have wasted some warriors but would have worked nonetheless.

Defeating the Rastedel army sent to check up on Raeve's keep - Probably Rowan's greatest contribution, he came up with the winning strategy and made sure the battle was won without word of it getting back to Rastedel. Twins could perhaps have won it without his assistance, but without as clean of a result and could have exposed the Bloodmeen army to the world.

Conquering Rastedel - Once again, while Rowan made perfect use of the situation to destabilize Rastedel, all of the pieces were already in play. The shapeshifter ally was already working for Jezera in there, tensions between the purples and the coppers were already near their boiling point, the relationship between the baron and the priestess already existed, etc. Again, without Rowan's assistance in defeating the army, maybe Rastedel hastily puts together more of an united front in face of the demons, but there would have still been a lot of instability and dissension among the ranks. Without Rowan the demons don't get Rastedel delivered to them in a silver plate, but I think they could have still won it even if they had to fight for it.

Now make no mistake, Rowan's contributions put the demons in a MUCH stronger position by the end of act 1 than they would have been without him. But even if they would have been much more bloodied and in all likelyhood their aspirations of world domination would go no further than Rastedel, I do think they would have still managed to accomplish all of their act 1 goals, just in a much more messy fashion, for better and worse. In that sense I think Rowan can still justify his actions in act 1 as being the "least damaging" course of action, but smoothening things too much might be slowly turning the Twins into too big of a snowball, and if he can't oppose their sadistic whims going into act 2, then he will have created a much bigger evil than the ones he sought to avert.

 

[Nightguy1]

The Twins have character flaws that make them somewhat incompetent at some of their functions as rulers, but they also have their talents as well as pretty powerful magic. More importantly though is to keep in mind that their opposition so far has been just as incompetent as them, if not more.

I haven't played the game in a long while and I'm not familiar with all of the recent changes, also I forget some names so forgive me on that, but lets breakdown Rowan's contributions:

Taking Raeve's keep - that was just a test for Rowan, the Twins alone could have taken the keep if they wanted to but they wanted to see if Rowan was capable.

Creating a network of supporting villages and mines - they probably wouldn't have been able to do this as smoothly without Rowan, but the importance of those is more to create a supply network for the future, as of conquering Rastedel this asset has not been critical yet.

Recruiting the local orc army - Rowan was helpful in doing this, but realistically the leadership of the orc army was already unstable. Even in the scenario where Rowan frees Delane and doesn't make any alliances for the Twins, Tarish gets rid of the other 2 orc warlords and then makes an alliance with Andras to consolidate her own leadership. Maybe the timing of everything wouldn't have worked as perfectly without Rowan, but worst case scenario Andras just bashes enough heads until Tarish or another warlord is willing to bend the knee. Would have wasted some warriors but would have worked nonetheless.

Defeating the Rastedel army sent to check up on Raeve's keep - Probably Rowan's greatest contribution, he came up with the winning strategy and made sure the battle was won without word of it getting back to Rastedel. Twins could perhaps have won it without his assistance, but without as clean of a result and could have exposed the Bloodmeen army to the world.

Conquering Rastedel - Once again, while Rowan made perfect use of the situation to destabilize Rastedel, all of the pieces were already in play. The shapeshifter ally was already working for Jezera in there, tensions between the purples and the coppers were already near their boiling point, the relationship between the baron and the priestess already existed, etc. Again, without Rowan's assistance in defeating the army, maybe Rastedel hastily puts together more of an united front in face of the demons, but there would have still been a lot of instability and dissension among the ranks. Without Rowan the demons don't get Rastedel delivered to them in a silver plate, but I think they could have still won it even if they had to fight for it.

Now make no mistake, Rowan's contributions put the demons in a MUCH stronger position by the end of act 1 than they would have been without him. But even if they would have been much more bloodied and in all likelyhood their aspirations of world domination would go no further than Rastedel, I do think they would have still managed to accomplish all of their act 1 goals, just in a much more messy fashion, for better and worse. In that sense I think Rowan can still justify his actions in act 1 as being the "least damaging" course of action, but smoothening things too much might be slowly turning the Twins into too big of a snowball, and if he can't oppose their sadistic whims going into act 2, then he will have created a much bigger evil than the ones he sought to avert.

You give the twins way too much credit im pretty sure kharos there dad demon king was not able to sack any human city in his reign and he had a way bigger army and was more powerful the twins are not good rulers and without rowan would be in a ditch somewhere long before making it to Rastadel.The astarte battle is a good ditch I think.

 

[T51bwinterized]

I think on some level, this internal debate is actually what rowan is feeling at the end of the rastedel quest. Would it have happened had he not made the choices that he made? Would it have happened anyway but with even more civilian death?

In real life, you don't have the ability to replay your actions and see which set of actions would have worked out differently. Even to the extent you have that in a videogame, it's only within a limited parameter. That uncertainty is a an interesting emotional space for a charachter to inhabit.

 

[monk_56]

The Twins have character flaws that make them somewhat incompetent at some of their functions as rulers, but they also have their talents as well as pretty powerful magic. More importantly though is to keep in mind that their opposition so far has been just as incompetent as them, if not more.

I haven't played the game in a long while and I'm not familiar with all of the recent changes, also I forget some names so forgive me on that, but lets breakdown Rowan's contributions:

Taking Raeve's keep - that was just a test for Rowan, the Twins alone could have taken the keep if they wanted to but they wanted to see if Rowan was capable.

Creating a network of supporting villages and mines - they probably wouldn't have been able to do this as smoothly without Rowan, but the importance of those is more to create a supply network for the future, as of conquering Rastedel this asset has not been critical yet.

Recruiting the local orc army - Rowan was helpful in doing this, but realistically the leadership of the orc army was already unstable. Even in the scenario where Rowan frees Delane and doesn't make any alliances for the Twins, Tarish gets rid of the other 2 orc warlords and then makes an alliance with Andras to consolidate her own leadership. Maybe the timing of everything wouldn't have worked as perfectly without Rowan, but worst case scenario Andras just bashes enough heads until Tarish or another warlord is willing to bend the knee. Would have wasted some warriors but would have worked nonetheless.

Defeating the Rastedel army sent to check up on Raeve's keep - Probably Rowan's greatest contribution, he came up with the winning strategy and made sure the battle was won without word of it getting back to Rastedel. Twins could perhaps have won it without his assistance, but without as clean of a result and could have exposed the Bloodmeen army to the world.

Conquering Rastedel - Once again, while Rowan made perfect use of the situation to destabilize Rastedel, all of the pieces were already in play. The shapeshifter ally was already working for Jezera in there, tensions between the purples and the coppers were already near their boiling point, the relationship between the baron and the priestess already existed, etc. Again, without Rowan's assistance in defeating the army, maybe Rastedel hastily puts together more of an united front in face of the demons, but there would have still been a lot of instability and dissension among the ranks. Without Rowan the demons don't get Rastedel delivered to them in a silver plate, but I think they could have still won it even if they had to fight for it.

Now make no mistake, Rowan's contributions put the demons in a MUCH stronger position by the end of act 1 than they would have been without him. But even if they would have been much more bloodied and in all likelyhood their aspirations of world domination would go no further than Rastedel, I do think they would have still managed to accomplish all of their act 1 goals, just in a much more messy fashion, for better and worse. In that sense I think Rowan can still justify his actions in act 1 as being the "least damaging" course of action, but smoothening things too much might be slowly turning the Twins into too big of a snowball, and if he can't oppose their sadistic whims going into act 2, then he will have created a much bigger evil than the ones he sought to avert.

Good general analysis that covers the highlights.

Wanted to add there are a myriad aggregate of minor actions that don't get mentioned in the narrative, are gamey, or seem tiny on their own related to Stewardship. The Twins in particular are poorly suited to the diligent attention span and work ethic required to cultivate a kingdom

You hear a lot of different opinions about if people think Rowan comes off as a trickster, heroic, intelligent ect. But I'd think about anyone who plays the game would readily admit the guy is god-like at kingdom-building.

He chose the research trajectory, managed the resources, decided what developments to make ect. Delegated tasks, directed workflow, and all the sort of bullshit required to keep the cogs of war turning. Not much of it was glamorous; but that sort of power is critical

I'm actually kinda amazed he has to go begging Jezera for things like magical items ect- when he basically has oversight over the entire means of production / economy at the castle now that I think of it.

Anyway, the Twins ability to accomplish anything in this vector relates pretty linearly with the quality of the people who they can extort / hire / bribe. So the real question seems to be would they have been able to find a suitable replacement / replacements who could have done *All* of those major things you mentioned AND this huge aggregate of small things that honestly probably carried more weight than the major contributions.

 

[Rome5555555]

Yes, the graphics in the game are very beautiful..

 

[HentaiGamerN00b]

Good general analysis that covers the highlights.

Wanted to add there are a myriad aggregate of minor actions that don't get mentioned in the narrative, are gamey, or seem tiny on their own related to Stewardship. The Twins in particular are poorly suited to the diligent attention span and work ethic required to cultivate a kingdom

You hear a lot of different opinions about if people think Rowan comes off as a trickster, heroic, intelligent ect. But I'd think about anyone who plays the game would readily admit the guy is god-like at kingdom-building.

He chose the research trajectory, managed the resources, decided what developments to make ect. Delegated tasks, directed workflow, and all the sort of bullshit required to keep the cogs of war turning. Not much of it was glamorous; but that sort of power is critical

I'm actually kinda amazed he has to go begging Jezera for things like magical items ect- when he basically has oversight over the entire means of production / economy at the castle now that I think of it.

Anyway, the Twins ability to accomplish anything in this vector relates pretty linearly with the quality of the people who they can extort / hire / bribe. So the real question seems to be would they have been able to find a suitable replacement / replacements who could have done *All* of those major things you mentioned AND this huge aggregate of small things that honestly probably carried more weight than the major contributions.

I don't share entirely, the reason is because still you can perfectly have a game over two times if you can't achieve the main goals dictated to you by The Twins... So, as Rowan can fail he can't be by any reason "god-like at kingdom-building", this is the ilusion the SoC Team made to make you fall, you think like that not because of Rowan but yourself, what the SoC Team did was making an initial story were there are a lot of frustrating choices to make, this can make you immerse more in the character and gain sympathy for him because you feel in control, but you must think out of the box.

Remember how Rowan just passed to enter to Bloodmeen in search for his wife, how careless and negligent was knowing being a tactician, a General who's role during the War play importance in the defeating of Karnas. This is an insight of who truly Rowan really is, the same happened during Rastedel's Fall, no matter what, there are more than enough events that could be prevented if Rowan could had a Plan or at least if we as players could take more of the decisions before and during this falling, Rastedel is an example of things that not only escape to Rowan control but for players control, because at that very same peak moment we are more attached to the character and it is orchestrated by the SoC Team to make you more a reader than a player, so things get out of hands pretty quickly.

And i have the feeling that could be more of that very same sentiment in the next Arcs, and it will be like that because of the choices taken before, and the things left behind without attention. Besides, even if Rowan (us) take the best decisions to Bloodmeen Castle perform better, this couldn't be possible without the chief in each area assigned by The Twins, Rowan by any chance hadn't to deal to who inside The Castle will be in charge of an area in particular, so, as there isn't an example of competition or competitors to choose who's better for the task, those ppl who work in helping Rowan to achieve his goals in all the Castle areas were chosen by The Twins for their excellency, as ppl capable to do in time the task Rowan need or more we can say, The Twins need, because as i said, Rowan (you) can fail their goals and it's only Rowan (you) who pay the consequences (take note on that) because, Rowan in any moment never question if someone else can perform better than Skordred or Clhiona, much less if are created Divided Teams for Construction, Researched and whatever areas to compare the same work and give the most simple to the less capable team to achieve quickly...

In resume, i still think Rowan don't know shit... Change my mind :v.

 

[Rivina]

Change my mind :v.

No, not my job.