Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.13a] [Vénus Noire]

[NewTricks]

This is a really intriguing conversation but it seems to be swinging between two extremes. It kind of ignores the existence of a middle ground playthrough where Rowan is just trying to stay as true to his wife as is possible in his circumstances while Alexia tries her best to avoid corruption. Not to say that this is the happiest playthrough, as you will have to do unkind things like refusing to help other women who the twins will abuse if you don't claim them. You may also have to do things that will result in you or your partner being punished. But it is the median between the extremes of maledom and NTR fetishes that seem to be the crux of the conversation. I found it fairly easily achievable, and content that I was not seeking avoidable. I do not begrudge others the content that doesn't necessarily float my boat. If someone is more interested in Alexia's NTR corruption route or having Rowan play Johnny Appleseed with his penis during his long forays outside the castle, more power to them. If somebody else wants them both to turn gay, I'm sure that will be an amusing playthrough. It just doesn't strike me as an either/or proposition or justify how heated the rhetoric has been. The design of the game is such that you may not get the path you want but you will certainly get the one you deserve.

 

[bobi121]

T51bwinterized can i ask three questions? Will we be able to have children with Jezera as Rowan? Or Greymane with Alexia? Will we be able to interract with them? I just made Cla-Min preggo. I love such mechanics.

 

[iainmore]

175 cm (or 5 ft 8.8) in seems to be pretty close to average in the English speaking world.

You must be registered to see the links	175.6 cm (5 ft 9 in)
You must be registered to see the links	175.1 cm (5 ft 9 in)
You must be registered to see the links – You must be registered to see the links	175.3 cm (5 ft 9 in)
You must be registered to see the links – You must be registered to see the links	175 cm (5 ft 9 in)
You must be registered to see the links – You must be registered to see the links	177 cm (5 ft 10 in)
You must be registered to see the links	175.3 cm (5 ft 9 in)

I suspect that Rowan was designed to generally to be very average in appearance.

There aren't really that many places that are "signifgantly" taller on average. (I'm defining significant as at least 2 inches taller)

You must be registered to see the links	185.6 cm (6 ft 1 in)
You must be registered to see the links	183.9 cm (6 ft 1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	183.8 cm (6 ft 1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	182.9 cm (6 ft 0 in)
You must be registered to see the links – You must be registered to see the links	182 cm (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	182 cm (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	181.5 cm (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	181.3 cm (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	181.2 cm (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	181.2 cm (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	181 cm (5 ft 11+1⁄2 in)
You must be registered to see the links	180.7 cm (5 ft 11 in)
You must be registered to see the links – You must be registered to see the links You must be registered to see the links	180.6 cm (5 ft 11 in)
You must be registered to see the links	180.4 cm (5 ft 11 in)
You must be registered to see the links	180.4 cm (5 ft 11 in)
You must be registered to see the links	180.3 cm (5 ft 11 in)
You must be registered to see the links – You must be registered to see the links	180.3 cm (5 ft 11 in)
You must be registered to see the links	179.9 cm (5 ft 11 in)

You must be registered to see the links

I am 6 ft 3 inches tall and 220lbs to go. I am a gentle Scottish giant though. Rowan is a puny wuss.

 

[monk_56]

This is a really intriguing conversation but it seems to be swinging between two extremes. It kind of ignores the existence of a middle ground playthrough where Rowan is just trying to stay as true to his wife as is possible in his circumstances while Alexia tries her best to avoid corruption. Not to say that this is the happiest playthrough, as you will have to do unkind things like refusing to help other women who the twins will abuse if you don't claim them. You may also have to do things that will result in you or your partner being punished. But it is the median between the extremes of maledom and NTR fetishes that seem to be the crux of the conversation. I found it fairly easily achievable, and content that I was not seeking avoidable. I do not begrudge others the content that doesn't necessarily float my boat. If someone is more interested in Alexia's NTR corruption route or having Rowan play Johnny Appleseed with his penis during his long forays outside the castle, more power to them. If somebody else wants them both to turn gay, I'm sure that will be an amusing playthrough. It just doesn't strike me as an either/or proposition or justify how heated the rhetoric has been. The design of the game is such that you may not get the path you want but you will certainly get the one you deserve.

"Johnny Appleseed with his penis"
This was a hilarious line. Just spreadin' 'seed' accross the nation friends! You've just created a plot-line for your very own Parody VN!

TBH that median you described is basically how I play Rowan already. With the exception of a few of the NPCs. I wish there was more poly + consent content- it is the best stuff. This whole Telenovela of the MC characters mutually cheating on each-other isn't really my vibe either. Sexual drama isn't that interesting to me- there is already an abundance of it in real life; I can call my sister if I want to get some juicy gossip. I much prefer the fantasy elements, which could never occur in the real world. All the battles, intrigue, power dynamics, metaphysic, lore-building, and finding an interesting narrative balance between heroically resisting and submitting to chaos ect.

As of the Liurial threesome rework you can now have two Poly relationships in SoC and not have Rowan or Alexia cheat at all- I think that is very great!

It feels like folks keep jumping to the wrong conclusions about what I'm saying about Rowan.

My issues with Rowan not feeling dominant are not me wanting him to be like miniature Andras or Rance per-say; a cruel and manipulative rapist who just dominates and fucks whomever he wants- I hate content like that. Just for Rowan to be more powerfully portrayed in his narrative and consent content- and for there to be more *tasteful* Maledom content eventually were the Sub and Dom have a healthy mutually agreed on dynamic, such as Liurial. Probably some of Hel's content will be like that- after she gets out of that rather uncomfortable dub-con phase where she is made somewhat mindless by that ring. I am interested to see what Winter does with that- Hel trying to rationalize her feelings about what happened to her is going to be quite a conversation.

True hope = some sort of semi-benevolent overlord pathing; ya know.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

In Act I is innevitable to see Rowan mostly at this perspective, as the so call "Hero" just go dumb to save his beloved one just to be him the one to saved makes you question how the hell his enemies and the entire nobility was inferior to him in the previous war; from my POV the main problem with Rowan is that he just go around too dumb to give him credibility. It wasn't a joke when i compared Rowan with John Daggett from Batman:TDKR in the scene with Bane about who's in charge after Rastedel, Rowan really seems to thought that for some reason he could influence or have some under control the Twins because of his services and achievements; people responding that Rowan is like Bruce in the prison (rising), sorry, but right now he's literally John Daggett without power over Bane, in this case The Twins. I think the game doesn't establish a route for the "nage" or "uke" (the one who do an act and the one who recieve the action in japanese) because it's intended to give the freedom to choose a role or another, so the experience depends entirely of the player (except for Rastedel because Rowan there is John Daggett X'D). To see Rowan in a more dominant role, maybe we must need to wait half or end of Act 2, that i consider the most probably scenario for the Rowan as a Bruce in the prison from Batman:TDKR.

About the rest i don't care too much about how dominant he is or not, it's about his actions to find a way out Because the more close Rowan was nearly interest seriously in getting free was when inspecting the collar, after choose being a coward or being discourage, the rest of Act I is basically nothing more aside from the discovery of Nasim with Rowan of a source of power (in which he even molest to think in free himself or his wife but use against The Twins without thinking if it'll not have consequences if something happen to them while both are under their power). How Rowan as a peasant could surpass his enemies and the entire nobility before SoC events?.

Finally, if Rowan want to look more male, then he'll need to ask for Nasim, as he could know about to change his look just as Shaya did lol

(full disclosure I haven't seen TDKR so I'm sorry if I miss some nuances with the comparision)
I think up until Rastedel it was fully reasonable for Rowan to believe that he could manage the twins. Up until that point it seemed he had largely been able to do just that. They seek his advice on a wide range of matters and thus far they'd always followed the advice that he gives them. They let him deside how to take any given village, they let him decide how to recruit troops, they let him decide their military stategies, hell they even let him decide the leadership structure of their whole society.

In fact, they even let him decide how they are going to take Rastedel. The twins really wanted to sack the city, but Rowan is able to convince them to let him try to take the city peacefully. But the thing is they REALLY wanted to sack the city. So they were already primed to find any excuse for why it wasn't good enough. I'm willing to bet even if he had come to them with 90% of the city the results would have been pretty similar. Even when everything went wrong he was able to take back control of half the city in just one night, which was an impressive feat in its own right. He probably could have given then the whole thing in less than a week. But instead they took the oppertunity to do what they always wanted to do in the first place.

I think that Rastedel was a wake up call for Rowan. He didn't have nearly as much control and influence as he thought he did. I think a portion of his shock is simply that he had so poorly misjudged the situation.

 

[NewTricks]

(full disclosure I haven't seen TDKR so I'm sorry if I miss some nuances with the comparision)
I think up until Rastedel it was fully reasonable for Rowan to believe that he could manage the twins. Up until that point it seemed he had largely been able to do just that. They seek his advice on a wide range of matters and thus far they'd always followed the advice that he gives them. They let him deside how to take any given village, they let him decide how to recruit troops, they let him decide their military stategies, hell they even let him decide the leadership structure of their whole society.

In fact, they even let him decide how they are going to take Rastedel. The twins really wanted to sack the city, but Rowan is able to convince them to let him try to take the city peacefully. But the thing is they REALLY wanted to sack the city. So they were already primed to find any excuse for why it wasn't good enough. I'm willing to bet even if he had come to them with 90% of the city the results would have been pretty similar. Even when everything went wrong he was able to take back control of half the city in just one night, which was an impressive feat in its own right. He probably could have given then the whole thing in less than a week. But instead they took the oppertunity to do what they always wanted to do in the first place.

I think that Rastedel was a wake up call for Rowan. He didn't have nearly as much control and influence as he thought he did. I think a portion of his shock is simply that he had so poorly misjudged the situation.

Yes. All this. The twins desire to sack the city was not only an impulsive decision purely made for their own sadistic pleasure, but it was also a tactical error. The value of the city was not in its loot but its structural integrity, human resources, and defensibility. All were decimated at best and now they are the rulers of a ruin. Since they have never had to build anything (Rowan needed to build everything for them) they don't know the value of that which is built. They don't grasp that destruction is more of a setback than an accomplishment. They also seem to be operating under the same misconceptions as terrorists. Inflicting fear on a civilian populace may result in short-term concessions but in the long term, it has the effect of hardening public sentiment and results in fiercer resistance. It is unlikely that they will be able to hold the city for long because they now have enemies on both sides of the walls and the walls were the first thing they ruined. But hey, at least they got to have an orgy.

 

[monk_56]

(full disclosure I haven't seen TDKR so I'm sorry if I miss some nuances with the comparision)
I think up until Rastedel it was fully reasonable for Rowan to believe that he could manage the twins. Up until that point it seemed he had largely been able to do just that. They seek his advice on a wide range of matters and thus far they'd always followed the advice that he gives them. They let him deside how to take any given village, they let him decide how to recruit troops, they let him decide their military stategies, hell they even let him decide the leadership structure of their whole society.

In fact, they even let him decide how they are going to take Rastedel. The twins really wanted to sack the city, but Rowan is able to convince them to let him try to take the city peacefully. But the thing is they REALLY wanted to sack the city. So they were already primed to find any excuse for why it wasn't good enough. I'm willing to bet even if he had come to them with 90% of the city the results would have been pretty similar. Even when everything went wrong he was able to take back control of half the city in just one night, which was an impressive feat in its own right. He probably could have given then the whole thing in less than a week. But instead they took the oppertunity to do what they always wanted to do in the first place.

I think that Rastedel was a wake up call for Rowan. He didn't have nearly as much control and influence as he thought he did. I think a portion of his shock is simply that he had so poorly misjudged the situation.

How do you reconcile such ignorance from Rowan with the concept that he is supposed to be a Mastermind?

A Rowan that trusts anything the Twins say is honestly pretty far fetched in my mind. Like- does this version of Rowan just have an extreme case of hopium? People are more inclined to believe something if they really want it to be true I suppose. So there is something to it- but still.

He has seen all the horrible things that the Twins enjoy doing first hand.- I don't understand why he wouldn't at bare minimum be enacting contingency plans. He kinda just blindly follows their orders for the most part.

Secondly, I find a Rowan who puts all his marbles into the idea of cleanly executing a military maneuver with 100% success in a major city a little unplausable. He cannot be that stupid can he?

 

[perles75]

How do you reconcile such ignorance from Rowan with the concept that he is supposed to be a Mastermind?

A Rowan that trusts anything the Twins say is honestly pretty far fetched in my mind. Like- does this version of Rowan just have an extreme case of hopium? People are more inclined to believe something if they really want it to be true I suppose. So there is something to it- but still.

He has seen all the horrible things that the Twins enjoy doing first hand.- I don't understand my he wouldn't at bare minimum be enacting contingency plans. He kinda just blindly follows their orders for the most part.

Secondly, I find a Rowan who puts all his marbles into the idea of cleanly executing a military maneuver with 100% success in a major city a little unplausable. He cannot be that stupid can he?

I've never seen Rowan as a mastermind. Remember what is the starting point of the devs: what happens after the happily ever after when the hero comes back to a normal life?

It should be noticed that, until Rastedel, Rowan has mostly been able to get whatever he wanted, managing to walk the tightrope between the chaos of the twins and his attempt to damage control relatively well. I don't think we see him trusting "anything the twins say".
Also, it is quite understandable that he would think that the twins would treat Rastedel in a reasonably decent way considering that's the strategic and logic thing to do (and the twins want to win a war after all). So it's not surprising that he was caught by surprise. I agree that the end of Act I comes with a rethinking of all of Roland's strategies (of course, depending on his path).

 

[monk_56]

I've never seen Rowan as a mastermind. Remember what is the starting point of the devs: what happens after the happily ever after when the hero comes back to a normal life?

It should be noticed that, until Rastedel, Rowan has mostly been able to get whatever he wanted, managing to walk the tightrope between the chaos of the twins and his attempt to damage control relatively well. I don't think we see him trusting "anything the twins say".
Also, it is quite understandable that he would think that the twins would treat Rastedel in a reasonably decent way considering that's the strategic and logic thing to do (and the twins want to win a war after all). So it's not surprising that he was caught by surprise. I agree that the end of Act I comes with a rethinking of all of Roland's strategies (of course, depending on his path).

Kinda agree with the first thought- Rowan doesn't really come off as that smart- but there are narrative threads that imply he should be.

Disagree on both of the other points. Though it is interesting to think about them.

1) He has hardly gotten whatever he wanted. Did he want to have to choose b/t killing the Elder or letting other people die? Did he want to choose between raping Helenya or letting her get gang-raped? Did he want to choose b/t sending Alexia's friend to die in the mines vs condemning many more to die in the mines? These are the sorts of situations that the Twins put Rowan in.- and not an exhaustive list of them, there are many more examples. They do it because they enjoy suffering- his in particular. He has hardly gotten whatever he wanted.

2) There are countless examples of the twins also making poor strategic choices on a whim. Jezera killing the Drow Emissary. Jezera harassing Cilonia. Andras killing his own troops for fun. Both of the NTR pathings. Like- these are malicious and whimsical demonic beings. They can be cold and calculating- but whether they will be strategic and logical vs whimsically malicious for their own gratification is really a roll of the dice not some foregone conclusion. Obviously Rowan doesn't know about the NTR yet- but if Rowan doesn't know the twins can hardly be trusted to make logical choices he hasn't been paying any attention.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

How do you reconcile such ignorance from Rowan with the concept that he is supposed to be a Mastermind?

A Rowan that trusts anything the Twins say is honestly pretty far fetched in my mind. Like- does this version of Rowan just have an extreme case of hopium? People are more inclined to believe something if they really want it to be true I suppose. So there is something to it- but still.

He has seen all the horrible things that the Twins enjoy doing first hand.- I don't understand my he wouldn't at bare minimum be enacting contingency plans. He kinda just blindly follows their orders for the most part.

Secondly, I find a Rowan who puts all his marbles into the idea of cleanly executing a military maneuver with 100% success in a major city a little unplausable. He cannot be that stupid can he?

I reconcile it by the fact that it been working so far. Apart from not releasing him or his wife Rastedel is the first time the twins have seriously bucked him. For most major decisions he has been able to convince or manipulate them toward the path that he prefers as long as he can make it sound somewhat reasonable. So when he doesn't quite have control of the city, it would be reasonable to think he has a decent chance of smoothing this over and convincing them to give him a little more time. People mostly look to past experiences to predict how future event will play out, and Rowans past experience told him he could salvage the situation. BTW I would argue that he does salvage it to a degree as the twins agree to just sack the half that Rowan didn't have under control instead of the entire city as they were about to do.

Keep in mind Rowan nearly pulled it off perfectly. And I'm sure they had all kinds of contingency plans in place. If the Prothian guards decide to fight we do this, if The other faction tries to resist the coup we do that, if the Baron tries to make a run for it this is the plan, here's what we do if the people are hesitant to accept the changes. They didn't have a plan for what happens if the Baron freaks the fuck out and commits suicide by flinging himself out of the window, because that was not an outcome that was even remotely on anyone's radar. Even if Rowan was supposed to be a mastermind predicting such an outcome would beggar the imagination.

 

[monk_56]

I reconcile it by the fact that it been working so far. Apart from not releasing him or his wife Rastedel is the first time the twins have seriously bucked him. For most major decisions he has been able to convince or manipulate them toward the path that he prefers as long as he can make it sound somewhat reasonable. So when he doesn't quite have control of the city, it would be reasonable to think he has a decent chance of smoothing this over and convincing them to give him a little more time. People mostly look to past experiences to predict how future event will play out, and Rowans past experience told him he could salvage the situation. BTW I would argue that he does salvage it to a degree as the twins agree to just sack the half that Rowan didn't have under control instead of the entire city as they were about to do.

Keep in mind Rowan nearly pulled it off perfectly. And I'm sure they had all kinds of contingency plans in place. If the Prothian guards decide to fight we do this, if The other faction tries to resist the coup we do that, if the Baron tries to make a run for it this is the plan, here's what we do if the people are hesitant to accept the changes. They didn't have a plan for what happens if the Baron freaks the fuck out and commits suicide by flinging himself out of the window, because that was not an outcome that was even remotely on anyone's radar. Even if Rowan was supposed to be a mastermind predicting such an outcome would beggar the imagination.

Some good thoughts from you on the matter- particularly in regards to contingency plans.

I was thinking more like ground-work to help resist the twins after the take-over instead of contingency in the actual coup.

You made a great point about the Baron and that there were definitely a whole suite of battle-contingency plans ect that weren't described (since describing them would be a yawn fest )- 100% agree.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

I think at this point Rowan was still hoping to get away scot-free, if he can escape the twins then no one has to know he was ever working with the demons. Since he is largely left to his own devices he could have warned people about what is coming at any time, but then people might start questioning how he knows so much and might suspect his involvement, much as Delane does on a certain path when she has time to think about it. I think Rowan has a certain amount of selfishness to him in that regard. It is similar to the way that he is willing to risk the lives and freedom of entire nations in order to protect his wife and his own life. It is a sort of trolly problem but instead of strangers on both sides, it is you and your wife on one side and strangers/acquaintances on the other side and the question is how many people do we have to pile on the track before your willing to flip the switch.

Also while the game doesn't put a time limit on how long you take to complete the Rastedel arc, I feel that canonically the coup happens over a fairly short period of time. I don't think there was time to set up an insurgency capable of resisting a demon occupation in advance with out revealing what was about to happen.

While I'm thinking about it, I wonder if he hasn't also maybe drank a bit of the kool-aid with the thing about him being such a great a hero. He might think that can do this one his own, or even that he needs to do this alone. But in the dream sequences, Rowan doesn't seem super heroic in his past. Also I don't know if any of his heroic deeds were accomplished on his own. He may have been the orchestrater of the deeds, but it seems like he typical had a team or an army with him. I don't think he really started thinking of himself as a hero until the war was over and everyone started calling him a hero.

 

[HentaiGamerN00b]

I reconcile it by the fact that it been working so far. Apart from not releasing him or his wife Rastedel is the first time the twins have seriously bucked him. For most major decisions he has been able to convince or manipulate them toward the path that he prefers as long as he can make it sound somewhat reasonable. So when he doesn't quite have control of the city, it would be reasonable to think he has a decent chance of smoothing this over and convincing them to give him a little more time. People mostly look to past experiences to predict how future event will play out, and Rowans past experience told him he could salvage the situation. BTW I would argue that he does salvage it to a degree as the twins agree to just sack the half that Rowan didn't have under control instead of the entire city as they were about to do.

Keep in mind Rowan nearly pulled it off perfectly. And I'm sure they had all kinds of contingency plans in place. If the Prothian guards decide to fight we do this, if The other faction tries to resist the coup we do that, if the Baron tries to make a run for it this is the plan, here's what we do if the people are hesitant to accept the changes. They didn't have a plan for what happens if the Baron freaks the fuck out and commits suicide by flinging himself out of the window, because that was not an outcome that was even remotely on anyone's radar. Even if Rowan was supposed to be a mastermind predicting such an outcome would beggar the imagination.

If the case was to secure the Baron because he was the most important person in the city, then he would have planned to do so in the first place, but instead he just did what he did and everything just go out of hands, yes, it is impossible to plan for everything but it would be another ways to try to convince the Baron to do your biding for good or fool him to put him under arrest in a secured place until Jezera do her slutty demonic magic to enslave minds.

 

[monk_56]

I think at this point Rowan was still hoping to get away scot-free, if he can escape the twins then no one has to know he was ever working with the demons. Since he is largely left to his own devices he could have warned people about what is coming at any time, but then people might start questioning how he knows so much and might suspect his involvement, much as Delane does on a certain path when she has time to think about it. I think Rowan has a certain amount of selfishness to him in that regard. It is similar to the way that he is willing to risk the lives and freedom of entire nations in order to protect his wife and his own life. It is a sort of trolly problem but instead of strangers on both sides, it is you and your wife on one side and strangers/acquaintances on the other side and the question is how many people do we have to pile on the track before your willing to flip the switch.

Also while the game doesn't put a time limit on how long you take to complete the Rastedel arc, I feel that canonically the coup happens over a fairly short period of time. I don't think there was time to set up an insurgency capable of resisting a demon occupation in advance with out revealing what was about to happen.

While I'm thinking about it, I wonder if he hasn't also maybe drank a bit of the kool-aid with the thing about him being such a great a hero. He might think that can do this one his own, or even that he needs to do this alone. But in the dream sequences, Rowan doesn't seem super heroic in his past. Also I don't know if any of his heroic deeds were accomplished on his own. He may have been the orchestrater of the deeds, but it seems like he typical had a team or an army with him. I don't think he really started thinking of himself as a hero until the war was over and everyone started calling him a hero.

A Rowan that survives long enough to get to Rastdel definitely canonically has Hero complex. He often uses it to justify away his choices. The Rowan that doesn't have hero complex dies in one of the many dead ends offered by refusing to serve the twins in various foul deeds.

I suppose he could also truly and completely believe he will be able to resist the twins and will be able to prevent a greater tragedy down the line- but that is still hero complex; though it is a slightly different flavor of cool-ade.

 

[Caoyangn]

More Liurial content plz, like to dominate liurial

 

[T51bwinterized]

Two words.

Cognitive Dissonance.

Rowan is *loaded* with that shit.

 

[mmissu]

Good news. We're giving you more Alexia NTR this update.

Will the update release on Steam tomorrow as well?

 

[T51bwinterized]

More Liurial content plz, like to dominate liurial

Good news. We're putting in one of the longest erotic scenes in the game right now, featuring Liurial getting hella dominated.

Will the update release on Steam tomorrow as well?

Steam update is April I think?

 

[Tydeusv]

Steam update is April I think?

Last one was in January, so it'll be May.

 

[Magikzzzz]

Guys i was just wondering, can you check things like corruption? Or points towards certain characters?