VN Shocking! You won't believe what he said about minigames!

[mypossiblepasts]

If your "story" is 100 pages of boring text that I should skip to get to action - Its a waste of my time (Sweet Affection).

Yeah, the first thing I do when I launch a new game is pressing TAB (after the introduction, name setting etc) and watching what will happen.
Usually nothing, beside pages of text being skipped and skipped and skipped.
I haven't conciously checked it before, but I'd say with every line above ~10-15, the chances of alt+f4 -> shift+delete are rising exponentially

or at least trying to

Could you perhaps try harder for me? :3

 

[desmosome]

Minigames and sandbox navigation are horrid examples of gameplay. The overwhelming majority of VNs that add these elements have not a single clue on how to make it work. Because they are obviously amateurs and can barely comprehend the concept of game design.

"Sandbox" in VNs is 99.9% of the time not even close to an actual sandbox. All it has are empty tiles that does nothing except for that one specific time slot where the landlady will be in that room and say a generic one liner. And many of these amateur devs learn quite early in their endeavors that creating an actual sandbox with player freedom to explore and pursue their own interests is damn near impossible with their meager abilities in coding and limited manpower. So they inevitably resort to railroaded linear "sandbox" games that have only one place to go at any given time. Sometimes, they manage to make a few compartmentalized story arcs (like landlady, roommate, gf, teacher, each having their own progression), but these individual arcs don't form a cohesive narrative and are basically just happening in their own bubble.

The bottom line is, unless you actually know how to code and have a real vision on how to bring about the game world to life, just stick to a simple VN. You can use choices as a form of player engagement, and that is hard enough to do in a satisfactory manner already. No need to bang your head against the dreaded sandbox that only a handful of devs managed to pull off.

 

[lolzorzs]

And medication is supposed to be taken.

So is reading a book written by an intellectual for an intellectual. Not those self-help crap books and garbage teens these days call romance which makes Twilight look like a good love story.
And the music these days that makes Britney Spears, Madonna and Avril Lavigne sound talented by comparison.

 

[woody554]

KN are hated btw? Haven't seen signs of that tbh.

And sandboxes are popular?! I think we are on different websites xD

we've had a LOT of polls about it over years, and despite the loud noises in game threads sandboxes always poll super popular even though they're almost never done well. people simply seem to want that freedom of choice or at least the illusion of freedom (excluding subs etc. ofc like we talked before).

here's the first poll on sandbox vs vn that came up, 500 respondents. sandbox won 73% vs 27%.

KNs otoh at best get the casual "I don't mind them" with most people hating them. nobody seems to prefer them (although I feel like an actual good writer might change that some day).

our different experience might be explained by our opposite location on the domination spectrum, we're probably playing the exact opposite games so we're seeing very different comment threads.

 

[woody554]

sandbox navigation are horrid examples of gameplay...

...All it has are empty tiles that does nothing except for that one specific time slot where the landlady will be in that room and say a generic one liner.

one of the things that frustrates me the most are the ones where the game superficially looks really professional, the art is polished, buttons pop and highlight great, there's nice music, even the content might be great - but it makes me click THREE times every time I leave the main hub, or things you click often are on the opposite sides of the screen, or needing multiple clicks to backtrack from phone GUI menus before you can close the phone window. like they made everything look nice but in the process added huge amount of pointless clicking around the UI.

I can live with door clicking if it leads me directly to the other side, I can even live with a hidden event in the park at 13:00 only on tuesdays (because there's rarely more than 1-2 of those in a game), but MULTIPLE clicking to do one repeating thing drives me nuts.

 

[mypossiblepasts]

sandboxes always poll super popular

Yeah, that's true, just views/downloads here show that sandboxes ARE popular.
I guess I meant like, word "popular" that carries reception, and a pinch of quality? You know, in the same way that "6ix9ine-popular" differs from "Eminem-popular".

otoh

Thought you're speaking in some japanese slang for a moment. Thanks for teaching me a new acronym!

people simply seem to want that freedom of choice or at least the illusion of freedom (excluding subs etc. ofc like we talked before).

(although I feel like an actual good writer might change that some day)

our different experience might be explained by our opposite location on the domination spectrum, we're probably playing the exact opposite games so we're seeing very different comment threads.

That's a cool thesis. But I am not sure if it would hold that well in controlled enviroment.
Given how there's mostly indie/solo devs here, it's harsh I guess to compare someones Sandbox with other persons novel with less freedom.

Anyways, what I meant to say is:
Kinetic novel is just one specific path of Sandbox. Kind of.
You could copy a linear game I loved and paste it directly into a sandbox and it wouldn't automatically make me like it any less.
Given of course the other issue of...

but it makes me click THREE times every time I leave the main hub

...how unfun it's to play sandboxes.
That's why I'm glazin' TNH over and over again. It's far from my ideal, but simple addition of location shortcuts at 1-2-3 keys makes it night and day nicer.

And why I literally go my lenght to go and straight up insult developers that make a promising game ruined by their sandbox sheneningans. Be thankful that I like this place and don't want to get banned cause nothing I wrote here is even a tenth of what I want to write sometimes.
If it was something problematic, troublesome, that requires ANY amount of work, then there could be some justification.

But it takes 2 lines of code to add keyboard shortcut.
2.
I know, because I add them to every VN I play myself, so I can toggle "auto" with alt+a.

Why they just can't make shortcuts for their UI elements and main locations?

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Not sure where you get that from. Care to expand on that?

Yes, you are right. It's the other way around and yes, minority. But then, only a few answered. If anyone would do answer who knows how it would turn out.

 

[Jaike]

well I can't speak for other people but I run an organization employing 10 people, was the valedictorian, studied classical painting, media art and eventually 6 years of graphics engineering in university, my parents were great and oh, I have a national gold medal in rugby. but I do feel I'm somewhat lazy and I definitely hate change, so I guess that bit sort of hit the mark.

but the rest is just you making shit up in your head to justify looking down on people you don't know.

You know you're up against the master internet debaters when they make up random assumptions about you.

 

[mypossiblepasts]

Revelation hit me while thinking of Pale Carnations again.

Meaningful choices can't be too meaningful.
Choices cannot lead to surprises and definitely can't lead to bad things.

That's how the plot graph should look like.
Like those Luna's ponytail braid.
Paths spreading after choice, going their own ways, but then at some point starting to get pulled closer and closer again, untill all of them meet together in the same Nexus Event (thanks Spiderman!).
A point in plot that happens no matter the choices - and this where you can put player deaths, NPCs deaths, kidnappings, plot twists, reveals and every other major plot points.
And where you can start branching again, spreading wide while moving towards next Nexus Event.

If it's not The Ultimate Way, then at least it's the closest to finding the golden compromise between sandbox and kinetic and making the most out of both Dev and player time.

 

[woody554]

Revelation hit me while thinking of Pale Carnations again.

Meaningful choices can't be too meaningful.
Choices cannot lead to surprises and definitely can't lead to bad things.
View attachment 3723413
That's how the plot graph should look like.
Like those Luna's ponytail braid.
Paths spreading after choice, going their own ways, but then at some point starting to get pulled closer and closer again, untill all of them meet together in the same Nexus Event (thanks Spiderman!).
A point in plot that happens no matter the choices - and this where you can put player deaths, NPCs deaths, kidnappings, plot twists, reveals and every other major plot points.
And where you can start branching again, spreading wide while moving towards next Nexus Event.

If it's not The Ultimate Way, then at least it's the closest to finding the golden compromise between sandbox and kinetic and making the most out of both Dev and player time.

that's the definition of meaningless choices. all options leading to the same place. they didn't really change anything.

for the choices to have any MEANING they MUST change the plot and preferably characters irreversibly. or, at least punish you in a serious way so that getting back to the railroad track feels like WORK you'd rather avoid. failing or choosing wrong must HURT.

but if you can trivially get back to 'normal' from a choice or a failure you didn't really risk anything, which means your brain didn't secrete any excess dopamine and 'winning' can't give the pleasurable release that makes wnning fun. the dopamine levels peak BEFORE the roulette wheel stops, NOT when you're declared winner. it's that unnerving fear of losing everything that creates the height of the release, not the winning.

the bigger the stakes the greater the joy.

 

[mypossiblepasts]

that's the definition of meaningless choices.

I think you haven't read carefully what I wrote.
Because by your interpretation of my words - there should be as much unique endings as there is choices in whole game : D

I was just reflecting on my playthrough of last few games, and how annoying some of their parts were.
Plus I am talking to myself, about what game I want.

But in the essence - if there's a choice in game, that leads to A- Romance with LI1, B- No romance but your friend dies, C - MC dies/game over.
Throw some ambiguity on top of that, so I don't know the outcomes when making choices...
That is the definition of meaningless choice.

If there needs to be some big cornerstore for plot like that - maaaaaybe I can swallow it being a choice a couple of times MAX, preferably toward the end of game.
Other than that - deaths/hard locks/plot twists - should be kept in one, cannon place.

Because I had real fun playing Pale Carnations, but fuck me isn't it irritating to replay everything to get taste of different choices.
So I am now rebalancing my inner values, and say that the content should be locked/shown based on a PLAYER's choice. Not a choice given to the player.
And to make the choices meaningful - it's better when they revolve around the flavor.

It;s the same issue as the one I had with
https://f95zone.to/threads/ravager-v5-1-8-4minutewarning.26476/
Great game, really fun, but waaaaaay too spread.
So you sit back, and play one, two, three, four other times with guide/cheats/gallery mode.
And it's sucks the soul out of game.
And is little too close to the Gachi VN category.

 

[woody554]

I think you haven't read carefully what I wrote.
Because by your interpretation of my words - there should be as much unique endings as there is choices in whole game : D

I'll repeat myself: "all options leading to the same place."

But in the essence - if there's a choice in game, that leads to A- Romance with LI1, B- No romance but your friend dies, C - MC dies/game over.
Throw some ambiguity on top of that, so I don't know the outcomes when making choices...
That is the definition of meaningless choice.

are you kidding? those outcomes are literally the most drastic possible differences a choice can result in!

maybe you're confusing 'meaningful' with 'blind choices' or something, I don't know. but the fact that the sudden death annoys you to hell is a PROOF that it was CRUCIAL to choose RIGHT, not wrong.

So I am now changing my mind a little, and say that the content should be locked/shown based on a PLAYER's choice. Not a choice given to the player.

I don't know what that means, but that's okay. as long as you know what you want.

 

[mypossiblepasts]

PROOF that it was CRUCIAL to choose RIGHT, not wrong.

Ergo, meaningless choice.

Because - presented above example - it's just waste of everyones time (player and dev).

1 - space - space - space - space - ctrl(hold) - PgUp(hold) - PgUp - PgUp - 2 - space - space - space - space - ctrl(hold) - PgUp(hold) - PgUp - PgUp - 3 - space - space - space - space - game over - load choice - 1 - continue playing.

That's what will happen 100% times I play such game. Maybe you don't play this way, maybe I am minority, maybe 99% of players do this like I do, doesn't matter.
For me - it is absolutely non-choice.

I don't know what that means, but that's okay. as long as you know what you want.

That too often there's unnecessary choices in content (A vs B), when in the world of game there really is no reason for not allowing both.
Femdom vs Maledom - I am advocating against implementing it this way, but let's say it kinda makes sense to make them to stand in opposition - example - Goodbye Eternity. I had a lot of choices, meaningful ones, but not once I felt like I am missing out. Because content that got locked - was locked because I chose that.
Pale Carnations and few others throw this on the other hand:
Girl 1 vs Girl2 vs Girl3 vs Girl4 vs Girl5
While the correct way is: Girl1? Girl2? Girl3? Girl4? Girl5?

 

[woody554]

Ergo, meaningless choice.

That's what will happen 100% times I play such game. Maybe you don't play this way, maybe I am minority, maybe 99% of players do this like I do, doesn't matter.
For me - it is absolutely non-choice.

I mean there's no reason why you can't like games without meaningful choices like KNs. but the choices are still meaningless if they don't lead to different outcomes. whether you prefer or dislike them is irrelevant to that.

 

[mypossiblepasts]

I mean there's no reason why you can't like games without meaningful choices like KNs. but the choices are still meaningless if they don't lead to different outcomes. whether you prefer or dislike them is irrelevant to that.

But the choice between A or B or Die - it's not even meaningless choice. It is not a choice at all. That's my point.

I mean, I thought we all agreed that a choice should never lead to bad outcome. Why are we still arguing about that?

 

[woody554]

I mean, I thought we all agreed that a choice should never lead to bad outcome. Why are we still arguing about that?

because without punishing setbacks there's nothing at stake, which means your brain doesn't produce excess dopamine in anticipation of nerve-wrecking failure, which means winning results in 'meh' and not 'FUCKYEAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!'.

 

[mypossiblepasts]

without punishing setbacks there's nothing at stake

I mean exactly the same thing, but from the other side.

Because we are in RenPy world, where stakes don't exist.
Because rollback.

And I guess you can mean "hidden" choices - those made with hidden points etc.
But then it's PC issue, where you end up sitting with guides.

And all of everything boils down to writers sucking at writing honestly.

 

[nulnil]

In the case of anything that isn't a VN, gameplay takes priority over story.

If for whatever reason, my ass decides to play a VN, I don't want to be barraged with half-baked gameplay that doesn't do anything but draw out the game. You either dedicate time to designing a gameplay loop, or you don't, simple as that.

 

[mypossiblepasts]

You either dedicate time to designing a gameplay loop, or you don't, simple as that.

I'd like to add on this, that throwing meaningless money grinding system or - my nemesis - sandbox movement just for the sake of addint it - does not count.