Should FMC be classified as Netorare.??

[Count Morado]

because all I read comments in NTR games that it's cheating because of a bigger dick. Gender doesn't matter.

I agree that there are those who simply think all hetero and bisexual women are size queens and nearly all women will cheat on their man if the other man has a penis that is at least 1cm longer or girthier. That is a major problem for them to work out and speaks volumes why they are who they are.

Thank you for the clarification about gender.

 

[desmosome]

I didn't argue that the Japanese fetish as it is understood currently is from the male perspective. What I said was that the problem is that some people (read: some Japanese men) are unable to accept the female main character as the perspective of the story and so they identify themselves with a male subordinate character, and thus, label it from a male subordinate character's perspective. This is done rather than from the main character's perspective simply because the MC is female, whereas in nearly all other cases labeling is done from the male MC's perspective. That is problematic and shows that some people have issues with giving even fictional female characters control of their own stories.

Overthinking it. Porn is overwhelmingly marketed towards men. That's where the money is since they make up the large majority. When it comes to porn games, I'd wager it's even more lopsided than general porn viewership. And when it comes to NETORARE, it would be even more overwhelmingly a male fetish. They are not giving the female MC proper respect by framing netorare tag from the male's perspective? In a porn game that has her being turned into a cum slut by some big cock antagonists? This line of thought is kind of strange to me as an argument on this topic.

Now, please point to me the definitive statement that netorare should only be from the male perspective, even if the main character is female. Because I have never found it written as that to be the case. I have always seen it as sex-neutral. So, to help me better understand, please share that with me.

There is no definitive statement because everyone makes up their own criteria. So even my criteria is arguably some made up shit. But what I'm arguing about is not about a specific site's definition, but about the actual products that are produced. A female protag with a boyfriend, who gets corrupted by some antagonist cock and ends up getting stolen IS an extremely common trope in Japanese porn games, and they are marketed towards the netorare fanbase. You can argue this or that about sociology or tagging systems, but this fact remains.

Sure, on F95zone, we can't tag these FMC games with netorare if we are going by this site's chosen definition of the tag. But you need to pick an interpretation. 1) Japanese people are retards that don't know how what netorare is when they market their FMC games as netorare. 2) Maybe the overzealous attempts to neatly categorize and delineate such a complex fetish to account for extremely niche edge cases can backfire from a practical POV.

I actually totally understand wanting to create a neat and easily applied tag system that accounts for all variations, but when this gender neutral definition stands strictly against how many Japanese developers are defining their own game, you need to kind of take a step back and acknowledge that maybe it isn't so clear cut after all.

When you consider hentai manga/doujins, it gets even more apparent that a story told predominantly by zooming in on the female protagonist's character arc is... well, that's what netorare is.

 

[NdinguSuya]

Now, please point to me the definitive statement that netorare should only be from the male perspective, even if the main character is female. Because I have never found it written as that to be the case. I have always seen it as sex-neutral. So, to help me better understand, please share that with me.

Like they always tryna make about the guy even if the protag is female.....which is what confused me coz her love interest should be stolen from same as it would be in a male story. And yeah gender doesn't really matter coz it's all about the the MCs love interest being stolen

I'll never understand what's the appeal in playing as a male protagonist watching his girlfriend/wife taken by another man.

Broooooooo.....like I've tried to understand the fetish but my brain ain't registering, but to each their own I guess

 

[Jaike]

No.

The core of netorare is that the MAIN CHARACTER's Love Interest (or other similar) is being stolen in order to cause pain for the MAIN CHARACTER.

Hence if the MAIN CHARACTER is FEMALE and she is the one getting it on with others... that is not netorare.

It's called reverse NTR when female protag gets their partner stolen.

FMC NTR is the same exact story as MMC NTR, and the main character distinction is pretty much arbitrary in Japanese NTR games. In most Japanese NTR games with male protagonist, the main focus is still on the female's perspective via recollection room or just straight up POV shifts. Male MC can literally be just a cursor to view the FMC corruption storyline.

But obviously, you guys are western people that approach this topic from cuckoldry genre and identifying as the protagonist, and the tag definition on this site is limited to that extremely specific subgenre of NTR which coincides with western cuckoldry, so whatever. The game could be called Netorare Knightess Flora or something, and you guys would argue that it's a female protagonist and therefore cannot be NTR.

Has nothing to do with identifying as the protagonist. I never identify as the protagonist. I can understand cultural differences, however.

The idea that it is reverse netorare simply because the main character is female is a more of an identity label than what you are calling the western concept, because it appears that some people cannot accept stories with a female protagonist and labeling it from that protagonist's perspective because of their gender/sex.

I do also understand the conflating of cuckoldry and netorare, but that is because consumers made that conflation and as such sites seem obligated to align with consumers misconceptions rather than being more accurate.

While categorisation on the gender of the player's character is more logical and tidy, the Japanese conventional categorisation is more rooted in a number of realities, like desmosome already pointed out. Arc similarity is one. And while the female character in those NTR stories is the one with the feelings that matter the most in determining the outcome, well usually, she's an empty vehicle without agency. She's the player's character, but not much of a protagonist in the classical style. Compare that to Antigone, who's a real protagonist. An NTR arc embodies, and often exaggerates, "traditional" Japanese misogyny where the male-idealised woman is passive and a home maker (so if she gets a career, that's a "threat"). And the looseness with perspective makes more sense if you consider the genre came from manga too, where more than 1 perspective is more common. So arc similarity, lack of agency, the reflection of Japanese patriarchy and the genre origins having a "loose perspective" all support the conventional understanding.

Now I normally never use words like "reverse" NTR or netorare myself because my personal perspective is closer to Count Morado's, but to get what the fans are actually saying with these words it's important to get desmosome's message. You don't have to copy it.

I bet if you compare the types of "player takes away someone's loved one", "player has a loved one taken away" and "player is someone's loved one who's taken away", it's "player takes away someone's loved one" or netori that's the most different type and that comes with changes in audience expectation. Then if you fill the roles in for a straight relation(ship), "woman is taken away from a man" is banal for the genre, while "man is taken away from a woman" is an anomaly. Unlike pop songs to pick an example, where both perspectives are normal.

About this being a misconception of consumers, well a lot of NTR works are made by doushin creators who're creators and consumers at the same time.

 

[desmosome]

While categorisation on the gender of the player's character is more logical and tidy, the Japanese conventional categorisation is more rooted in a number of realities, like desmosome already pointed out. Arc similarity is one. And while the female character in those NTR stories is the one with the feelings that matter the most in determining the outcome, well usually, she's an empty vehicle without agency. She's the player's character, but not much of a protagonist in the classical style. Compare that to Antigone, who's a real protagonist. An NTR arc embodies, and often exaggerates, "traditional" Japanese misogyny where the male-idealised woman is passive and a home maker (so if she gets a career, that's a "threat"). And the looseness with perspective makes more sense if you consider the genre came from manga too, where more than 1 perspective is more common. So arc similarity, lack of agency, the reflection of Japanese patriarchy and the genre origins having a "loose perspective" all support the conventional understanding.

Now I normally never use words like "reverse" NTR or netorare myself because my personal perspective is closer to Count Morado's, but to get what the fans are actually saying with these words it's important to get desmosome's message. You don't have to copy it.

I bet if you compare the types of "player takes away someone's loved one", "player has a loved one taken away" and "player is someone's loved one who's taken away", it's "player takes away someone's loved one" or netori that's the most different type and that comes with changes in audience expectation. Then if you fill the roles in for a straight relation(ship), "woman is taken away from a man" is banal for the genre, while "man is taken away from a woman" is an anomaly. Unlike pop songs to pick an example, where both perspectives are normal.

About this being a misconception of consumers, well a lot of NTR works are made by doushin creators who're creators and consumers at the same time.

On one hand, we want order and logic in our categories, being able to generalize it to the most basic premise of what makes this category a thing. And I agree that there isn't really anywhere that specifically tries to define netorare in a gender specific manner.

But we also have to look at the reality of the situation. FMC being corrupted by an antagonist and leaving her husband/boyfriend/whatever is one of the most common forms of NTR story coming out of Japan, maybe even more common than the male MC perspective. Old school netorare fans who got into the genre from hentai doujins/manga will naturally understand that it's the nature of the story rather than the specific perspective that determines this specific fetish.

And honestly, the idea that there can be gendered tags for a genre is not something revolutionary. Why do we have female and male domination? Even when we consider cuckoldry, the traditional definition of the term specifies a husband. We even came up with a term that applies to a female (cuckqueen). Is this misogyny? Females can't be cucks? Are we disrespecting them by referring to this fetish as cuckqueen rather than cuckoldry?

When we make gendered distinctions, it's probably because the kink is not transferable, that the gender itself plays a role in the nature of the fetish. Indeed, netorare seems to be overwhelmingly about the female's corruption and the resulting dissolution of bond, whether it is viewed primarily (or entirely) through the lens of the male or female protagonist.

Edit:
This topic actually has tangible effects on the users of F95zone. This drive to remove netorare tag from FMC games makes it harder for fans of netorare to easily sort for games that interest them without getting a bunch of noise. I mentioned that netorare fans enjoy FMC games with the same premise just fine. We could simply filter for netorare and get hits for both male and female leads. When you remove the tag from FMC games, now we miss all these FMC games. To get it back, we need to add female protagonist, corruption, cheating, etc. Now we get a bunch of results that don't fit our intended search. All for what? So that some people that don't even like netorare can be smug about their tag definitions? Or so that people can search for that 1 game (if it even exists) that actually is about a female protag losing her significant other through corruption by some female antagonist?

 

[Count Morado]

While categorisation on the gender of the player's character is more logical and tidy, the Japanese conventional categorisation is more rooted in a number of realities, like desmosome already pointed out. Arc similarity is one. And while the female character in those NTR stories is the one with the feelings that matter the most in determining the outcome, well usually, she's an empty vehicle without agency. She's the player's character, but not much of a protagonist in the classical style. Compare that to Antigone, who's a real protagonist. An NTR arc embodies, and often exaggerates, "traditional" Japanese misogyny where the male-idealised woman is passive and a home maker (so if she gets a career, that's a "threat"). And the looseness with perspective makes more sense if you consider the genre came from manga too, where more than 1 perspective is more common. So arc similarity, lack of agency, the reflection of Japanese patriarchy and the genre origins having a "loose perspective" all support the conventional understanding.

Now I normally never use words like "reverse" NTR or netorare myself because my personal perspective is closer to Count Morado's, but to get what the fans are actually saying with these words it's important to get desmosome's message. You don't have to copy it.

I bet if you compare the types of "player takes away someone's loved one", "player has a loved one taken away" and "player is someone's loved one who's taken away", it's "player takes away someone's loved one" or netori that's the most different type and that comes with changes in audience expectation. Then if you fill the roles in for a straight relation(ship), "woman is taken away from a man" is banal for the genre, while "man is taken away from a woman" is an anomaly. Unlike pop songs to pick an example, where both perspectives are normal.

About this being a misconception of consumers, well a lot of NTR works are made by doushin creators who're creators and consumers at the same time.

I honestly don't know where to begin.

I understood everything you have stated before you stated it. Nothing you said illuminated anything more for me. In fact, I had already stated much of what you said in one of my posts:

The problem is that some people (read: some Japanese men) are unable to accept the female main character as the perspective of the story and so they identify themselves with a male subordinate character, and thus, label it from a male subordinate character's perspective. This is done rather than from the main character's perspective simply because the MC is female, whereas in nearly all other cases labeling is done from the male MC's perspective. That is problematic and shows that some people have issues with giving even fictional female characters control of their own stories.

Note that I say SOME in my post. Not ALL. There is a segment of Japanese men (well, some men of many cultures, not just Japanese - obviously) that just can't get over themselves enough.

As a teacher of literature - when we are defining a story line, we do it through the main character's perspective and it doesn't change simply because the gender or sex of the main character is not the same as our own. To do so is ingenuine and fallacious.

And, again, I have never found a reliable definition of netorare that says it must be from the man's point of view.

About this being a misconception of consumers, well a lot of NTR works are made by doushin creators who're creators and consumers at the same time.

Yes, I know. Why this needed to be stated, I don't know. Please don't respond with an explanation why you thought it was necessary, either.

On one hand, we want order and logic in our categories, being able to generalize it to the most basic premise of what makes this category a thing. And I agree that there isn't really anywhere that specifically tries to define netorare in a gender specific manner.

But we also have to look at the reality of the situation. FMC being corrupted by an antagonist and leaving her husband/boyfriend/whatever is one of the most common forms of NTR story coming out of Japan, maybe even more common than the male MC perspective. Old school netorare fans who got into the genre from hentai doujins/manga will naturally understand that it's the nature of the story rather than the specific perspective that determines this specific fetish.

And honestly, the idea that there can be gendered tags for a genre is not something revolutionary. Why do we have female and male domination? Even when we consider cuckoldry, the traditional definition of the term specifies a husband. We even came up with a term that applies to a female (cuckqueen). Is this misogyny? Females can't be cucks? Are we disrespecting them by referring to this fetish as cuckqueen rather than cuckoldry?

When we make gendered distinctions, it's probably because the kink is not transferable, that the gender itself plays a role in the nature of the fetish. Indeed, netorare seems to be overwhelmingly about the female's corruption and the resulting dissolution of bond, whether it is viewed primarily (or entirely) through the lens of the male or female protagonist.

Edit:
This topic actually has tangible effects on the users of F95zone. This drive to remove netorare tag from FMC games makes it harder for fans of netorare to easily sort for games that interest them without getting a bunch of noise. I mentioned that netorare fans enjoy FMC games with the same premise just fine. We could simply filter for netorare and get hits for both male and female leads. When you remove the tag from FMC games, now we miss all these FMC games. To get it back, we need to add female protagonist, corruption, cheating, etc. Now we get a bunch of results that don't fit our intended search. All for what? So that some people that don't even like netorare can be smug about their tag definitions? Or so that people can search for that 1 game (if it even exists) that actually is about a female protag losing her significant other through corruption by some female antagonist?

I
Can't
Even.

Gender, itself, does not play a role in the fetish unless you desire to make it so. And there are some people who have desired to make it so.

Your entire post here is nothing but justifying misogynism and narcissism in proper discussion of genres. And is nothing more than "because I will be put out" and "because I will miss out"... The world does not revolve around the person who thinks that it does.

And there is a difference between having a genre that contains misogynism and narcissism - and being misogynistic and narcissistic. The two do not, and should not, overlap.

We even came up with a term that applies to a female (cuckqueen). Is this misogyny? Females can't be cucks? Are we disrespecting them by referring to this fetish as cuckqueen rather than cuckoldry?

One, who is "we" - before you answer think about from what perspective that term came from. It wasn't from the female. It was first mentioned several centuries ago by.... what gender do you think?

The term cuckold was applied to men because men made the distinction at that time.
The term cuckqueen was applied to women because men made the distinction at that time.
And your point of cuckqueen only goes to further support MY argument, not yours. Because it is a term in which the perspective of the situation is from the woman's point of view, not the man's in the relationship.

Why do we have female and male domination?

Because not only men can be doms.

If we strictly said "domination" - many people would assume the one doing the dominating is a man.
Just like for many people when we say, "Have you met Dr. Jones?" many of us first think "Have I met him?" - assuming Dr. is a man.

Again, you are making my argument for me.

it's probably because the kink is not transferable, that the gender itself plays a role in the nature of the fetish.

You keep saying that - but I have never found anything stating this being part of the definitive definition of netorare. Never. I have found people using the male perspective when they talk about hypotheticals and examples - but never has it been part of an accepted definition when I have searched. Ever.

And that is what I have asked for - not your summation. Not your understanding. Not your perspective - though I respect that it is your perspective, I don't respect that perspective because except for personal preferences (yes, even by possibly millions of fans of the genre) - it's a personal perspective rooted in a problematic schema. I have asked for where I can find an accepted definition of the term that specifically states that the perspective is always from a male character and cannot be a female character perspective.

We could simply filter for netorare and get hits for both male and female leads.

At F95Zone this is done by:

For male leads (currently):
Include - male protagonist, netorare

For female leads
Include - female protagonist, netorare

Again, your stipulation is stipulated by an implied male perspective - which goes to my previous statements about why that is problematic.

I am not arguing what your perspective is, or the perspective of a segment of the netorare population that may have a problem with female free agency, but that its always funny when people say as a response is "but that's how I/we have always done things." When in reality, that may or may not be the case, and no matter if it has been or not - it's not the way to move forward. Not because of a certain culture trying to enforce maxims on others - but because people (even fictional ones) should be treated with equal amount of consideration when doing things, not because of what may be between their legs (and in some cases, ambiguously there).

When you remove the tag from FMC games, now we miss all these FMC games. To get it back, we need to add female protagonist, corruption, cheating, etc. Now we get a bunch of results that don't fit our intended search.

Possibly. Corruption, no. That's not a protagonist tag. Corruption is when it is done by the main character for F95. Cheating, yes.

And when the new tag system comes out - whenever it is - you could also include protagonist-centric, which means only the protagonist has sex in the game.

----------------------------

I'm really done with this conversation because, again. "Because" is not a reason nor is it a source.

I have asked this a couple of times in this thread and is really the only part of this whole argument that would move me (Would it change my perspective that it is a misogynistic way to categorize a genre? No. Would it move me to support alternatives to the tagging system? Possibly for the purpose of clarity):

Now, please point to me the definitive statement that netorare should only be from the male perspective, even if the main character is female. Because I have never found it written as that to be the case. I have always seen it as sex-neutral. So, to help me better understand, please share that with me.

Every answer to this has been a summation of what is believed to be the case, but there are people who believe the earth is flat without offering supportable reason/source/evidence. Whereas, the people who know the earth is an oblate spheroid can point to reason/source/evidence.

I have never found an accepted, reputable (read: not personal opinion) that netorare is strictly defined by gender. I have seen people use, by default, a male main character perspective when describing it for people to understand what netorare is about. I have found people reference "reverse netorare." I have found where it is said, traditionally many stories are a female main character who cheats on their supporting-role male character and thus, the reader/consumer becomes jealous by proxy. None of this do I deny. None. In fact, it goes to the argument that netorare, as a genre, is more identity based by its consumers (and, for Jaike's sake, by a good portion of its content creators). I am also aware that men are normally larger consumers of this genre of literature, game, porn.

None of that justifies, nor is definitive, that says that netorare is gender-based. Has it been used that way primarily, traditionally? Sure. But that's like saying "We say firemen because primarily, traditionally men were fire fighters." Meh. Circular reasoning is circular.

Step outside the circle.

If you have something to point to me that says the "definitive statement that netorare should only be from the male perspective, even if the main character is female." Then please @ me. Anything else is just the dog chasing its own tail.

 

[Geigi]

I honestly don't know where to begin.

I understood everything you have stated before you stated it. Nothing you said illuminated anything more for me. In fact, I had already stated much of what you said in one of my posts:
Note that I say SOME in my post. Not ALL. There is a segment of Japanese men (well, some men of many cultures, not just Japanese - obviously) that just can't get over themselves enough.

As a teacher of literature - when we are defining a story line, we do it through the main character's perspective and it doesn't change simply because the gender or sex of the main character is not the same as our own. To do so is ingenuine and fallacious.

And, again, I have never found a reliable definition of netorare that says it must be from the man's point of view. Only that it is based upon the main or focal character's point of view. Not a subordinate or supporting character's view, the focal character.
Yes, I know. Why this needed to be stated, I don't know. Please don't respond with an explanation why you thought it was necessary, either.


I
Can't
Even.

Gender, itself, does not play a role in the fetish unless you desire to make it so. And there are some people who have desired to make it so.

Your entire post here is nothing but justifying misogynism and narcissism in proper discussion of genres. And is nothing more than "because I will be put out" and "because I will miss out"... The world does not revolve around the person who thinks that it does.

And there is a difference between having a genre that contains misogynism and narcissism - and being misogynistic and narcissistic. The two do not, and should not, overlap.
One, who is "we" - before you answer think about from what perspective that term came from. It wasn't from the female. It was first mentioned several centuries ago by.... what gender do you think?

The term cuckold was applied to men because men made the distinction at that time.
The term cuckqueen was applied to women because men made the distinction at that time.
And your point of cuckqueen only goes to further support MY argument, not yours. Because it is a term in which the perspective of the situation is from the woman's point of view, not the man's in the relationship.

Because not only men can be doms.

If we strictly said "domination" - many people would assume the one doing the dominating is a man.
Just like for many people when we say, "Have you met Dr. Jones?" many of us first think "Have I met him?" - assuming Dr. is a man.

Again, you are making my argument for me.

You keep saying that - but I have never found anything stating this being part of the definitive definition of netorare. Never. I have found people using the male perspective when they talk about hypotheticals and examples - but never has it been part of an accepted definition when I have searched. Ever.

And that is what I have asked for - not your summation. Not your understanding. Not your perspective - though I respect that it is your perspective, I don't respect that perspective because except for personal preferences (yes, even by possibly millions of fans of the genre) - it's a personal perspective rooted in a problematic schema. I have asked for where I can find an accepted definition of the term that specifically states that the perspective is always from a male character and cannot be a female character perspective.


At F95Zone this is done by:

For male leads (currently):
Include - male protagonist, netorare

For female leads
Include - female protagonist, netorare

Again, your stipulation is stipulated by an implied male perspective - which goes to my previous statements about why that is problematic.

I am not arguing what your perspective is, or the perspective of a segment of the netorare population that may have a problem with female free agency, but that its always funny when people say things need to change a response is "but that's how I/we have always done things." When in reality, that may or may not be the case, and no matter if it has been or not - it's not the way to move forward. Not because of a certain culture trying to enforce maxims on others - but because people (even fictional ones) should be treated with equal amount of consideration when doing things, not because of what may be between their legs (and in some cases, ambiguously there).
Possibly. Corruption, no. That's not a protagonist tag. Corruption is when it is done by the main character for F95. Cheating, yes.

And when the new tag system comes out - whenever it is - you could also include protagonist-centric, which means only the protagonist has sex in the game.

----------------------------

I'm really done with this conversation because, again. "Because" is not a reason nor is it a source.

I have asked this a couple of times in this thread and is really the only part of this whole argument that would move me (Would it change my perspective that it is a misogynistic way to categorize a genre? No. Would it move me to support alternatives to the tagging system? Possibly for the purpose of clarity):
Every answer to this has been a summation of what is believed to be the case, but there are people who believe the earth is flat without offering supportable reason/source/evidence. Whereas, the people who know the earth is an oblate spheroid can point to reason/source/evidence.

I have never found an accepted, reputable (read: not personal opinion) that netorare is strictly defined by gender. I have seen people use, by default, a male main character perspective when describing it for people to understand what netorare is about. I have found people reference "reverse netorare." I have found where it is said, traditionally many stories are a female main character who cheats on their supporting-role male character and thus, the reader/consumer becomes jealous by proxy. None of this do I deny. None. In fact, it goes to the argument that netorare, as a genre, is more identity based by its consumers (and, for Jaike's sake, by a good portion of its content creators). I am also aware that men are normally larger consumers of this genre of literature, game, porn.

None of that justifies, nor is definitive, that says that netorare is gender-based. Has it been used that way primarily, traditionally? Sure. But that's like saying "We say firemen because primarily, traditionally men were fire fighters." Meh. Circular reasoning is circular.

Step outside the circle.

If you have something to point to me that says the "definitive statement that netorare should only be from the male perspective, even if the main character is female." Then please Me. Anything else is just the dog chasing its own tail.

I think that only Japanese people know who invented NTR, how and what does it actually represent. Also, in one of the "who knows how many NTR threads" someone said that incels think that NTR is a woman's thing, I don't know how did they come up to that but I think that it's the love triangle thing. It's always a FMC and two main male characters, one good the other bad, or two good guys. Twilight is an example. As for cuckold, to me it's plain cheating when the husband in unaware or for example another guy is fucking wife in front of her husband by taunting him/mocking, degrading/humiliating him. I think cuckold came from Cuckoo bird, they throw eggs from the nest of another bird and lay theirs hence when the eggs hatch, unaware mother is feeding Cuckoo's youngling. Sounds familiar? How many men aren't fathers of their children? When couple wants a threesome, it's just sharing.

 

[desmosome]

Gender, itself, does not play a role in the fetish unless you desire to make it so. And there are some people who have desired to make it so.

Your entire post here is nothing but justifying misogynism and narcissism in proper discussion of genres. And is nothing more than "because I will be put out" and "because I will miss out"... The world does not revolve around the person who thinks that it does.

And there is a difference between having a genre that contains misogynism and narcissism - and being misogynistic and narcissistic. The two do not, and should not, overlap.

Okay...? So there were people who desired to make it so, because that was what the fetish is about. And that's what the fetish was known to be. Netorare stories are deeply misogynistic. How else would you describe a porn genre where a female is so weak willed and prone to being corrupted that they just self-destruct from the prospect of having that amazing bad guy cock?

So wanting to view this misogyny fetish for what it is is a bad thing?

One, who is "we" - before you answer think about from what perspective that term came from. It wasn't from the female. It was first mentioned several centuries ago by.... what gender do you think?

The term cuckold was applied to men because men made the distinction at that time.
The term cuckqueen was applied to women because men made the distinction at that time.

Okay....? You seem to be on this weird social progressiveness tangent when we are talking about porn tags. Like what even is the point of saying men made the distinction of cuckoldry? What are you arguing here? My argument was that gendered variations of a fetish genre exists already, so accepting that netorare is, at least in practice, overwhelmingly a gendered story convention isn't a stretch.

And your point of cuckqueen only goes to further support MY argument, not yours. Because it is a term in which the perspective of the situation is from the woman's point of view, not the man's in the relationship.

I'd say your argument would be that cuckqueen shouldn't be needed because cuckoldry is misogynistic due to being made by men and that woman should be able to be cucks too instead of needing their own designation for the same scenario.

But let me try to understand. Are you saying cuckqueen is a female term, so it's fine? So if we create a term... let's say instead of reverse NTR, we call the story of a female losing their LI to another female FemNTR. Then this is totally progressive and fine? Maybe I misunderstood your point here.

Perhaps you are arguing that cuckqueen is supporting your argument because it's from female POV? But surely, you must know that the majority (basically all?) cuckqueen genre is from male protag POV as a power fantasy? So it would seem to support my argument that it's not really about the POV or protagonist, but about the nature of the story (which can be gender specific) that determines the genre?

Because not only men can be doms.

If we strictly said "domination" - many people would assume the one doing the dominating is a man.
Just like for many people when we say, "Have you met Dr. Jones?" many of us first think "Have I met him?" - assuming Dr. is a man.

Again, you are making my argument for me.

What argument am I making for you?

Following your logic, men and women can both be doms. Therefore, we shouldn't need male and femdom separation, if we want to be totally progressive and equal in our porn tagging.

But we don't do that. Because maledom and femdom have different audiences and the nature of the story is very different precisely because of the gender roles in the story.

You keep saying that - but I have never found anything stating this being part of the definitive definition of netorare. Never. I have found people using the male perspective when they talk about hypotheticals and examples - but never has it been part of an accepted definition when I have searched. Ever.

And that is what I have asked for - not your summation. Not your understanding. Not your perspective - though I respect that it is your perspective, I don't respect that perspective because except for personal preferences (yes, even by possibly millions of fans of the genre) - it's a personal perspective rooted in a problematic schema. I have asked for where I can find an accepted definition of the term that specifically states that the perspective is always from a male character and cannot be a female character perspective.

I already told you that I wasn't pointing to some definition somewhere as if there is an NTR authority somewhere out there. You just ignored the whole paragraph where I specifically state that what I am referring to is not my summation, perspective, or understanding, but the literal reality of the porn being created as part of this genre, by the Japanese people that originated the idea about this kind of story.

At F95Zone this is done by:

For male leads (currently):
Include - male protagonist, netorare

For female leads
Include - female protagonist, netorare

You are arguing in favor of removing netorare tags from FMC games. So what are you talking about here?

Currently, male protag netorare returns 49 pages. Female protag, netorare returns 19 pages. And that's after the ongoing efforts to remove netorare tags from FMC games. And guess how many of these FMC netorare games are actually of the variety where the female is the one losing her LI? I don't know, but good luck looking for that needle in the haystack.

FMC netorare games (of the misogynistic variety lol) is something many fans of Japanese NTR prefers being included in their NTR search. So once all NTR tags are removed from these FMC games, if they want to search for it in addition to male MC netorare, they would have to search for tangential tags like cheating/corruption. But cheating and corruption, even if paired with female protag, will include many other results. It's making it harder to search for a porn tag for the... benefit of, I don't know, gender equality? Is that your primary argument? From the sociological anti-misogynist reasoning?

Again, your stipulation is stipulated by an implied male perspective - which goes to my previous statements about why that is problematic.

So you are in favor of dismissing what these misogynistic Jap assholes think about a Japanese porn genre because it is problematic to think in this deeply non-progressive way. Okay.

Possibly. Corruption, no. That's not a protagonist tag. Corruption is when it is done by the main character for F95. Cheating, yes.

No, and no. Corruption doesn't stipulate the MC. And the majority of corruption tag is about FMC corruption. Maybe this is another area that you can champion against if you think the tag is doing it wrong. Cheating also doesn't specify the MC. Plenty of games have cheating tag for NPCs cheating on each other, or NPC cheating on their partner to get with the MC (netori vibes).

But yes, we will have to use these tangential tags that generally come together with netorare if we want to hit the FMC netorare (misogyny type) after all those tags are removed by people like you. And that will be a pain in the ass for no reason.

None of that justifies, nor is definitive, that says that netorare is gender-based.

But it does show that netorare is predominantly about this particular story about the female falling into a spiral of depravity and destroying a once-pure bond. You are arguing in favor of upending a practical way to tag such games because it's not woke, for lack of a better word. My argument is not about gatekeeping female non-misogynistic netorare being getting the tag. Go right ahead. No one is really interested in this story, it seems, because it never gets made. So a few games like that wouldn't make any practical difference in ability filter for the majority of interested parties.

Has it been used that way primarily, traditionally? Sure. But that's like saying "We say firemen because primarily, traditionally men were fire fighters." Meh. Circular reasoning is circular.

Tbh, it's kind of pointless arguing against the misogyny argument against the tagging system. It's a non-sequitur, imo. Tagging system's purpose is for useful sorting and filtering of various genres, not for making some social statements.

The genre itself is overwhelmingly misogynistic (the products being made, for the express purpose of being a misogynistic kink), so using a misogynistic interpretation is not problematic in categorizing this story type.

And your analogy is faulty. Netorare, the word, isn't gendered, but the interpretation as a story usually is. So what you would be against is not "firemen", but "firefighter" generally being accepted to refer to male firefighters. Okay, those are both admirable positions for your conscious, but what does that have to do with tagging?

It's a stretch, but let me try to make my own comparison along these lines. If "firefighter movie" is a genre, would you be against calling a movie where the lead is a non-firefighter (perhaps the wife of a firefighter) a firefighter movie? The story will be intimately tied to firefighting from a civilian POV. Would it only be a firefighter movie with a female lead if she is firefighter lady? Now we can argue about categorizing practicality.

What I'm saying is that the obsession with the lead character when categorizing a particular story aspect/genre is not particularly useful.

What about the rape fetish? The overwhelming majority of people that will search for rape tag wants to see females getting raped. You agree here, yes? And so, a female protag game that has a rape tag will inherently be assumed to be about the female lead getting raped by NPCs. Yes? Isn't this similar to the netorare situation? Down to the gender stereotypes? I am arguing in favor of practicality while you are arguing in favor of social justice or something.

 

[Count Morado]

Okay...? So there were people who desired to make it so, because that was what the fetish is about. And that's what the fetish was known to be. Netorare stories are deeply misogynistic. How else would you describe a porn genre where a female is so weak willed and prone to being corrupted that they just self-destruct from the prospect of having that amazing bad guy cock?

So wanting to view this misogyny fetish for what it is is a bad thing?


Okay....? You seem to be on this weird social progressiveness tangent when we are talking about porn tags. Like what even is the point of saying men made the distinction of cuckoldry? What are you arguing here? My argument was that gendered variations of a fetish genre exists already, so accepting that netorare is, at least in practice, overwhelmingly a gendered story convention isn't a stretch.


I'd say your argument would be that cuckqueen shouldn't be needed because cuckoldry is misogynistic due to being made by men and that woman should be able to be cucks too instead of needing their own designation for the same scenario.

But let me try to understand. Are you saying cuckqueen is a female term, so it's fine? So if we create a term... let's say instead of reverse NTR, we call the story of a female losing their LI to another female FemNTR. Then this is totally progressive and fine? Maybe I misunderstood your point here.

Perhaps you are arguing that cuckqueen is supporting your argument because it's from female POV? But surely, you must know that the majority (basically all?) cuckqueen genre is from male protag POV as a power fantasy? So it would seem to support my argument that it's not really about the POV or protagonist, but about the nature of the story (which can be gender specific) that determines the genre?



What argument am I making for you?

Following your logic, men and women can both be doms. Therefore, we shouldn't need male and femdom separation, if we want to be totally progressive and equal in our porn tagging.

But we don't do that. Because maledom and femdom have different audiences and the nature of the story is very different precisely because of the gender roles in the story.


I already told you that I wasn't pointing to some definition somewhere as if there is an NTR authority somewhere out there. You just ignored the whole paragraph where I specifically state that what I am referring to is not my summation, perspective, or understanding, but the literal reality of the porn being created as part of this genre, by the Japanese people that originated the idea about this kind of story.
You are arguing in favor of removing netorare tags from FMC games. So what are you talking about here?

Currently, male protag netorare returns 49 pages. Female protag, netorare returns 19 pages. And that's after the ongoing efforts to remove netorare tags from FMC games. And guess how many of these FMC netorare games are actually of the variety where the female is the one losing her LI? I don't know, but good luck looking for that needle in the haystack.

FMC netorare games (of the misogynistic variety lol) is something many fans of Japanese NTR prefers being included in their NTR search. So once all NTR tags are removed from these FMC games, if they want to search for it in addition to male MC netorare, they would have to search for tangential tags like cheating/corruption. But cheating and corruption, even if paired with female protag, will include many other results. It's making it harder to search for a porn tag for the... benefit of, I don't know, gender equality? Is that your primary argument? From the sociological anti-misogynist reasoning?

So you are in favor of dismissing what these misogynistic Jap assholes think about a Japanese porn genre because it is problematic to think in this deeply non-progressive way. Okay.

No, and no. Corruption doesn't stipulate the MC. And the majority of corruption tag is about FMC corruption. Maybe this is another area that you can champion against if you think the tag is doing it wrong. Cheating also doesn't specify the MC. Plenty of games have cheating tag for NPCs cheating on each other, or NPC cheating on their partner to get with the MC (netori vibes).

But yes, we will have to use these tangential tags that generally come together with netorare if we want to hit the FMC netorare (misogyny type) after all those tags are removed by people like you. And that will be a pain in the ass for no reason.


But it does show that netorare is predominantly about this particular story about the female falling into a spiral of depravity and destroying a once-pure bond. You are arguing in favor of upending a practical way to tag such games because it's not woke, for lack of a better word. My argument is not about gatekeeping female non-misogynistic netorare being getting the tag. Go right ahead. No one is really interested in this story, it seems, because it never gets made. So a few games like that wouldn't make any practical difference in ability filter for the majority of interested parties.


Tbh, it's kind of pointless arguing against the misogyny argument against the tagging system. It's a non-sequitur, imo. Tagging system's purpose is for useful sorting and filtering of various genres, not for making some social statements.

The genre itself is overwhelmingly misogynistic (the products being made, for the express purpose of being a misogynistic kink), so using a misogynistic interpretation is not problematic in categorizing this story type.

And your analogy is faulty. Netorare, the word, isn't gendered, but the interpretation as a story usually is. So what you would be against is not "firemen", but "firefighter" generally being accepted to refer to male firefighters. Okay, those are both admirable positions for your conscious, but what does that have to do with tagging?

It's a stretch, but let me try to make my own comparison along these lines. If "firefighter movie" is a genre, would you be against calling a movie where the lead is a non-firefighter (perhaps the wife of a firefighter) a firefighter movie? The story will be intimately tied to firefighting from a civilian POV. Would it only be a firefighter movie with a female lead if she is firefighter lady? Now we can argue about categorizing practicality.

What I'm saying is that the obsession with the lead character when categorizing a particular story aspect/genre is not particularly useful.

What about the rape fetish? The overwhelming majority of people that will search for rape tag wants to see females getting raped. You agree here, yes? And so, a female protag game that has a rape tag will inherently be assumed to be about the female lead getting raped by NPCs. Yes? Isn't this similar to the netorare situation? Down to the gender stereotypes? I am arguing in favor of practicality while you are arguing in favor of social justice or something.

Did not read because did not provide the only thing I asked about. At least, I did not see a link to a source for the answer when I quickly scrolled down.

As I said, I'm not going to keep going in circles with no forward momentum. If you have a source that is the answer to my question, just provide a link. Otherwise you are only typing for your benefit.

Thanks though.

 

[tanstaafl]

Following your logic, men and women can both be doms. Therefore, we shouldn't need male and femdom separation, if we want to be totally progressive and equal in our porn tagging.

A person dominating another person is domination, gender neutral statement, so the above statement is technically correct. But when it comes to "I want to look up the fetish I want to see", I.E. one specific gender dominating the other, removing that classification would be stupidity. The classification isn't trying to separate femdom from maledom by saying they're different things, it's making it easier for people to find what they want to watch.

 

[MissCougar]

I have dommed males before. Seems like there are guys deeply into it. Mommy domination is a thing.

 

[Qahlz]

Did not read because did not provide the only thing I asked about. At least, I did not see a link to a source for the answer when I quickly scrolled down.

On vndb the

You must be registered to see the links

is kept completely gender-neutral. Although from a small random sample of the ~170 FMC/netorare games, most of them seem to be the FMC being stolen away from their boyfriend.

The

You must be registered to see the links

is consistently gendered and always speaks of a heroine who is cheating/raped and a protagonist (who seems to generally be male, if we go by the used pronouns) who is cucked. And although they do not mention if they'd consider a woman's boyfriend being stolen netorare, they do mention that the perspective is the distinction between netori and netorare; sadly there's no mention of what the perspective of the cheating heroine would be called.

You must be registered to see the links

there is only a brief description that is gender neutral, while netorare has its

You must be registered to see the links

, where it specifically states that it's rarer that the partner of a woman gets stolen away.

 

[Count Morado]

On vndb the

You must be registered to see the links

is kept completely gender-neutral. Although from a small random sample of the ~170 FMC/netorare games, most of them seem to be the FMC being stolen away from their boyfriend.

The

You must be registered to see the links

is consistently gendered and always speaks of a heroine who is cheating/raped and a protagonist (who seems to generally be male, if we go by the used pronouns) who is cucked. And although they do not mention if they'd consider a woman's boyfriend being stolen netorare, they do mention that the perspective is the distinction between netori and netorare; sadly there's no mention of what the perspective of the cheating heroine would be called.

You must be registered to see the links

there is only a brief description that is gender neutral, while netorare has its

You must be registered to see the links

, where it specifically states that it's rarer that the partner of a woman gets stolen away.

thanks for the links!

I wouldn't necessarily call these definitive as these are secondary and tertiary, and at least 2, if not all 3 are greatly influenced by the users of the sites.

For example, tags in vndb are user assigned to titles if I am remembering correctly, and so there is going to be a tendency to tag to ones perspective than to actual definition. Even so, the results are:

1. vndb: Gender-neutral. Even if fans tag both female as being the one cheating as well as the one cheated upon, depending upon the title.
2. AniDB: Gendered. I do not have an account so I cannot see the contents of the link, but you are using heroine for the female and protagonist for the male. If those are the terms they use, then they do not see the female as the main character, but the male... Even if she is the focal character. That's assuming the titles tagged include females in the main character role whose male partner is the target of the pain.
3. Wiki: Gender-neutral. Though wiki can be, at times, used as a starting point, not a finishing one and, in some instances be used as a citation if allowed... I wouldn't say it's answer is definitive.

And yes, we could devolve into a discussion about how words only have the meanings we agree they have, as a fundamental concept of communication. But as you can see - we do not have agreement.

In the end, I am left with my same take I began with: netorare appears not gender specific, even if it is used more prevalently with a male being the target of the pain. It's the desire of certain fans/creators who wish to drive that narrative to make it gender specific.

 

[Geigi]

I have dommed males before. Seems like there are guys deeply into it. Mommy domination is a thing.

Lucky you!

 

[MissCougar]

Lucky you!

It was fun but it also got old because it ended up that I was always having to make all the decisions. The fun of this wore out due to the lack of reciprocation and capability to deliver back to me. So I'd probably not want to do it again, unless I feel like putting in all the work for some limp passenger to my madness.

 

[Essta]

Has nothing to do with identifying as the protagonist. I never identify as the protagonist. I can understand cultural differences, however.

The idea that it is reverse netorare simply because the main character is female is a more of an identity label than what you are calling the western concept, because it appears that some people cannot accept stories with a female protagonist and labeling it from that protagonist's perspective because of their gender/sex.

I do also understand the conflating of cuckoldry and netorare, but that is because consumers made that conflation and as such sites seem obligated to align with consumers misconceptions rather than being more accurate.

Its just like how reverse rape is just rape commited by a woman. These reverse terms are kinda dumb.

 

[Jaike]

I honestly don't know where to begin.

I understood everything you have stated before you stated it. Nothing you said illuminated anything more for me. In fact, I had already stated much of what you said in one of my posts:
Note that I say SOME in my post. Not ALL. There is a segment of Japanese men (well, some men of many cultures, not just Japanese - obviously) that just can't get over themselves enough.

As a teacher of literature - when we are defining a story line, we do it through the main character's perspective and it doesn't change simply because the gender or sex of the main character is not the same as our own. To do so is ingenuine and fallacious.

And, again, I have never found a reliable definition of netorare that says it must be from the man's point of view.
Yes, I know. Why this needed to be stated, I don't know. Please don't respond with an explanation why you thought it was necessary, either.

That's very different from what I said, but okay, assuming you knew many of the same "facts" I gave for an interpretation, that the "traditional" Japanese categorising of these stories where female leads get "taken away" by antagonists as netorare has a basis in story characteristics.

Another way to look at it is ask yourself if you had enough of these notions, why didn't you come to the same interpretation?

That was the purpose of my post, to formulate a middle ground that could improve the discussion by bridging 2 different angles.

There is no "reliable" definition, every way of defining a genre is a cultural interpretation that can be done slightly differently. Even then, I'd disagree it's always a male character's LI being "taken away", and I never said or implied that. Hell, someone could write a story with a full nonbinary or intersex cast. Probably wouldn't play well on this site, but I'd read the game topic with popcorn.

Glad we both agree there's misogyny in Japan but not all Japanese men are misogynists tho, I guess. I don't think that "inability to accept the female main character as the perspective of the story" argument is convincing, tho.

Its just like how reverse rape is just rape commited by a woman. These reverse terms are kinda dumb.

I agree the "reverse" part is dumb, but that's just an extra distinction from people who're influenced by American culture. I think the real issue is if these "netorare?" games where a female protagonist is "taken away" by an antagonist get the netorare tag or not. This has stakes for NTR fans, but for people who dislike that genre too.

I like to play games with actual female protagonists. Not just empty vehicles. The thing is, games with female protagonists pretty often have very different alternative routes. Now I always check more than just if a game has just one tag, but it can be an effective red flag if you combine it with other signs. And no, the corruption tag is almost useless for that. It's so common.

 

[Geigi]

That's very different from what I said, but okay, assuming you knew many of the same "facts" I gave for an interpretation, that the "traditional" Japanese categorising of these stories where female leads get "taken away" by antagonists as netorare has a basis in story characteristics.

Another way to look at it is ask yourself if you had enough of these notions, why didn't you come to the same interpretation?

That was the purpose of my post, to formulate a middle ground that could improve the discussion by bridging 2 different angles.

There is no "reliable" definition, every way of defining a genre is a cultural interpretation that can be done slightly differently. Even then, I'd disagree it's always a male character's LI being "taken away", and I never said or implied that. Hell, someone could write a story with a full nonbinary or intersex cast. Probably wouldn't play well on this site, but I'd read the game topic with popcorn.

Glad we both agree there's misogyny in Japan but not all Japanese men are misogynists tho, I guess. I don't think that "inability to accept the female main character as the perspective of the story" argument is convincing, tho.


I agree the "reverse" part is dumb, but that's just an extra distinction from people who're influenced by American culture. I think the real issue is if these "netorare?" games where a female protagonist is "taken away" by an antagonist get the netorare tag or not. This has stakes for NTR fans, but for people who dislike that genre too.

I like to play games with actual female protagonists. Not just empty vehicles. The thing is, games with female protagonists pretty often have very different alternative routes. Now I always check more than just if a game has just one tag, but it can be an effective red flag if you combine it with other signs. And no, the corruption tag is almost useless for that. It's so common.

Since you always have good recs, can you recommend me your top 5 where a FMC is actually strong and resist dumb blackmail by male characters? Every time I read "strong" female protagonist, I get disappointed because the game just starts and she's already fallen by "corruption" or raped? RPGM games have this major problem. Neither writers know how to write a dominant male protagonist without being a villain nor they know how to write a dominant female protagonist without being a sadist (or write women in general).

 

[anne O'nymous]

As a teacher of literature - when we are defining a story line, we do it through the main character's perspective and it doesn't change simply because the gender or sex of the main character is not the same as our own. To do so is ingenuine and fallacious.

And, again, I have never found a reliable definition of netorare that says it must be from the man's point of view.

Must be added that in a game the notion of "main character" should be differentiated from the notion of "player character". The PC can perfectly be just a witness in a story he don't fully control, and therefore he will not be the MC in this story. Imagine by example Lord of the Ring, but from the point of view of Sam; you would decide how (and if) Sam help Frodo, but it would still be the story of Frodo, just seen from Sam's point of view.
And, while it's rare, it's in NTR games that it happen the most, presenting you the story of a guy that have his wife/girlfriend stolen, but not always presented from his own point of view. After, obviously, some do it better than others, but it's another debate.

Gender, itself, does not play a role in the fetish unless you desire to make it so. And there are some people who have desired to make it so.

Patriarchy my dear. Only women are weak enough to fall for someone else, and only Alpha males strong willed enough to make them fall just because they want it.
It's stupid, but it's what? Hell, I'll be nice and said 99% of NTR games, expecting, without high hope, that among what I haven't seen there's at least one or two where it's the man that is stolen; this outside of gay NTR games of course.

And there is a difference between having a genre that contains misogynism and narcissism - and being misogynistic and narcissistic. The two do not, and should not, overlap.

"A genre that contains"... de facto, but not by definition.

The term cuckold was applied to men because men made the distinction at that time.
The term cuckqueen was applied to women because men made the distinction at that time.
And your point of cuckqueen only goes to further support MY argument, not yours. Because it is a term in which the perspective of the situation is from the woman's point of view, not the man's in the relationship.

Doesn't it goes further than this?
I mean, a "cuckold" is a sad weak victim who can't pleasure his girl, while a "cuckqueen" is a strong willing woman who get pleasure from sharing her man. The first being the nightmare of many men, while the second is their dream.

Because not only men can be doms.

As demonstrated by the 2552 games with a femdom tag.

 

[Geigi]

Must be added that in a game the notion of "main character" should be differentiated from the notion of "player character". The PC can perfectly be just a witness in a story he don't fully control, and therefore he will not be the MC in this story. Imagine by example Lord of the Ring, but from the point of view of Sam; you would decide how (and if) Sam help Frodo, but it would still be the story of Frodo, just seen from Sam's point of view.
And, while it's rare, it's in NTR games that it happen the most, presenting you the story of a guy that have his wife/girlfriend stolen, but not always presented from his own point of view. After, obviously, some do it better than others, but it's another debate.




Patriarchy my dear. Only women are weak enough to fall for someone else, and only Alpha males strong willed enough to make them fall just because they want it.
It's stupid, but it's what? Hell, I'll be nice and said 99% of NTR games, expecting, without high hope, that among what I haven't seen there's at least one or two where it's the man that is stolen; this outside of gay NTR games of course.




"A genre that contains"... de facto, but not by definition.




Doesn't it goes further than this?
I mean, a "cuckold" is a sad weak victim who can't pleasure his girl, while a "cuckqueen" is a strong willing woman who get pleasure from sharing her man. The first being the nightmare of many men, while the second is their dream.




As demonstrated by the 2552 games with a femdom tag.

A game in which son's stolen from FMC(mother). https://f95zone.to/threads/mommys-boy-v0-2-onyxdime-and-dreambiggames.247782/ A breath of fresh air among those cheating FMC "NTR" games.