"Stereotypes" make all the games look the same.

[Deleted member 3768214]

There are quite some stereotypes in the Visual Novel industry that should be abandoned, imho.
What I mean is that almost all male MCs are fit youngsters with gigantic members. The average female is 18/25yo with a perfect body, big boobs and round ass. When we encounter a side character is almost always ugly, which means that is either a nerd or a fat guy.

Now...I have the feeling that the average playerbase of these games is made of "normal people" (most likely 90% males), with an average non-fit body and "normal" attributes, so my suggestions are:
1) To increase the sense of immersion in the stories told, characters should be more "average looking people", so that the player can identify more with the MC.
2) The females should be less "supersexy silicon Barbies" and more normal girls/women that you could actually meet in your life.
3) Side characters doesn't have to be necessarily "ugly", "nerd", "fat", "old". These sterotypes don't make the story more intriguing or immersive, so there's no point in sticking to them.

Your opinions?

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

Yeah, I'll never understand why people enjoy huge unrealistic dongs in porn. If they enjoy it, rather than porn producers just feeling compelled to include them because that's the established norm. Also, games with average-looking people would actually be refreshing to see.

 

[kytee]

If I had a choice between looking at beautiful people or normal people everyday, why would I ever look at normal people? Same reason why I want to see beautiful people in my porn. Why would I waste my time looking at average people in a fictional setting if I already see that everyday?

As for it killing immersion, no story I've read on here has it's immersion destroyed more by its attractive characters than by the writer's own incompetence. You talk about immersion saying characters are too attractive to be immersive, but what about all the one-note characters that all sound exactly like the writer? Is that immersive? I'm willing to bet anything that a cast of all attractive characters that are well written are more immersive to an audience than a cast of badly written average looking characters.

 

[khumak]

If I had a choice between looking at beautiful people or normal people everyday, why would I ever look at normal people? Same reason why I want to see beautiful people in my porn. Why would I waste my time looking at average people in a fictional setting if I already see that everyday?

As for it killing immersion, no story I've read on here has it's immersion destroyed more by its attractive characters than by the writer's own incompetence. You talk about immersion saying characters are too attractive to be immersive, but what about all the one-note characters that all sound exactly like the writer? Is that immersive? I'm willing to bet anything that a cast of all attractive characters that are well written are more immersive to an audience than a cast of badly written average looking characters.

Yep I agree. I do prefer body proportions to be reasonable rather than exaggerated, but I would definitely rather have them all look like fitness models (both male and female) than the typical couch potato. What I don't like to see is baseball bat sized dicks and basketball sized tits. Those proportions are impossible without surgery and I wouldn't find them attractive even if it was possible naturally. This is especially true for adult content. I have no interest in watching fat people fuck. I have nothing against them, I just don't need to see it.

 

[Fear375]

Stereotypes in games or movies have been around for a long time. And it doesn't make much sense to fight them. The world of erotic games, like porn, is beautiful in my opinion, because there is a picture of an ideal or close to the universe. There is no hate, racism, warrior. An ordinary nerd can talk to a long-legged blonde, and an alien from outer space will find a language with a schoolgirl in a mini-skirt. You should always keep in mind that this is a game (film) and how good it is depends more on the script and visual effects than on the appearance of the main character.

However, I agree that there are not so many games that are close to reality outside the window. But even without them, everyone will find a character or a story to their liking.

I think stereotypes are an integral part of the entertainment industry. They can be ridiculed, beaten, or left as it is. But you can't do without them at all. Otherwise, it will be boring.

And yes, in some games, the male genitals and female breasts are too large. But this is also perceived as part of the genre.

 

[arcaos]

When I started development on my game, I went far out of my way to make the girls distinct in size/features/personality/skin color/etc. But in the end, even though content is pretty evenly distributed among my characters, polling shows that my most popular character is the blonde with big boobs. I'm sure some players really like how she's written or the fetishes she leans towards, but there's definitely some correlation to her looks. Ultimately I'm not upset that this was the outcome, but I honestly underestimated how clear the trend is.

I can't fault any developer who goes for easy eye candy for their models if there's such a clear preference for them from the public.

 

[Deleted member 3768214]

How can you say that perfect bodies are a "preference", if there is no alternative?
To me, looking at characters that don't exist in real life is an "immersione killer", not to say that almost all girls look like unrealistic TPE sex dolls that you can buy online.
What I think is that devs take the "easy route" trying to make fast money by using premade 3D models and spamming them over hundreds of titles that look all the same.
Then there are some devs who put some effort and try a different way, like for Personal Trainer just to mention one, in which you can find the perfect girl but also the average one, and you can choose which kind you like more. Or games like Mirror Mine, that goes beyond the "average silicon TPE doll" and pushes the graphics close to reality.
Talking about "side characters"... If the MC has a friend, he is always an ugly guy or a nerd who has never had a girlfriend before. Is it such a detail so important thet it must be spammed in all stories? Do you think that the player feels more "macho" if his friend is a looser?

 

[Jack0h]

If I had a choice between looking at beautiful people or normal people everyday, why would I ever look at normal people? Same reason why I want to see beautiful people in my porn. Why would I waste my time looking at average people in a fictional setting if I already see that everyday?

As for it killing immersion, no story I've read on here has it's immersion destroyed more by its attractive characters than by the writer's own incompetence. You talk about immersion saying characters are too attractive to be immersive, but what about all the one-note characters that all sound exactly like the writer? Is that immersive? I'm willing to bet anything that a cast of all attractive characters that are well written are more immersive to an audience than a cast of badly written average looking characters.

When you say they all sound like the writer, can you explain that in more detail? I ask because if you can explain what you mean, you can better offer examples of how to better structure dialogue to avoid that.

When I started development on my game, I went far out of my way to make the girls distinct in size/features/personality/skin color/etc. But in the end, even though content is pretty evenly distributed among my characters, polling shows that my most popular character is the blonde with big boobs. I'm sure some players really like how she's written or the fetishes she leans towards, but there's definitely some correlation to her looks. Ultimately I'm not upset that this was the outcome, but I honestly underestimated how clear the trend is.

I can't fault any developer who goes for easy eye candy for their models if there's such a clear preference for them from the public.

and, as i have read, some of the efforts to both purchase, manipulate and render non-stereotypical characters is both expensive and costly, right?

 

[Droid Productions]

Sounds like you'd enjoy Light of My Life

 

[MissFortune]

When you say they all sound like the writer, can you explain that in more detail? I ask because if you can explain what you mean, you can better offer examples of how to better structure dialogue to avoid that.

What he/she means is a lot of writers lack the ability to individualize their characters, I believe at least.

So, there's John and Jane talking to each other. John says: "Hey, Jane. How was the office today?", Jane replies with "It was okay, John. The boss was in a bad mood, but I got a lot done.". Obviously it sounds stiff as a quick example, but they talk exactly like one another (which can happen, but reading it can get quite tedious.). Whereas, you can have a bit of difference between them.

Say John is a run-of-the-mill New Yorker with a truck-driver mouth and Jane is a rather normal girl that doesn't go too far out of the box. John would say "Yo, [insert derogatory nickname/pet name], how was the job today? The boss still up your ass?" Jane would reply with something like "Yeah, I'm starting to feel like she has it out for me. Worst part is I don't even know what I did to get on her bad side."

If every character sounds the same, there's little dimension to each of them. Think a cardboard cutout, for example. It has boobs in front, but it's flatter than an underfed virgin in Alabama everywhere else. People speak differently everywhere. Accents, dialects, drawls, etc - and they all change depend on where you grew up within a certain country. Someone who grows up in Houston is less likely to have that stereotypical southern drawl than someone who lives in Jefferson does. Slang, ways of speech, ebonics, etc all give characters color and that little extra bit of dimension to make the more lifelike/interesting just like in the real world.

 

[Jofur]

Variety is the spice of life. It's boring if every character is a super model with big tits or every MC is a scrawny teenager with a massive dong, as long as they aren't outright ugly anything goes as far as I'm concerned.
I don't mind most clichés, they are clichés for a reason after all, but I think it's worth to add some variety to those clichés. Make the bitchy older sister who hates you overprotective and kind instead, give the slutty bimbo a personality other than taking dicks. It doesn't take much.

 

[G60LADDER]

What he/she means is a lot of writers lack the ability to individualize their characters, I believe at least.

So, there's John and Jane talking to each other. John says: "Hey, Jane. How was the office today?", Jane replies with "It was okay, John. The boss was in a bad mood, but I got a lot done.". Obviously it sounds stiff as a quick example, but they talk exactly like one another (which can happen, but reading it can get quite tedious.). Whereas, you can have a bit of difference between them.

Say John is a run-of-the-mill New Yorker with a truck-driver mouth and Jane is a rather normal girl that doesn't go too far out of the box. John would say "Yo, [insert derogatory nickname/pet name], how was the job today? The boss still up your ass?" Jane would reply with something like "Yeah, I'm starting to feel like she has it out for me. Worst part is I don't even know what I did to get on her bad side."

If every character sounds the same, there's little dimension to each of them. Think a cardboard cutout, for example. It has boobs in front, but it's flatter than an underfed virgin in Alabama everywhere else. People speak differently everywhere. Accents, dialects, drawls, etc - and they all change depend on where you grew up within a certain country. Someone who grows up in Houston is less likely to have that stereotypical southern drawl than someone who lives in Jefferson does. Slang, ways of speech, ebonics, etc all give characters color and that little extra bit of dimension to make the more lifelike/interesting just like in the real world.

On a similar vein, you can often tell when a developer is using their own personal knowledge on a specific topic (say a character going super in-depth talking about coding) but in another scene there's pretty much no detail (say two girls are going dress shopping... There's a lot more that gets said in real life than "Does this dress make me look too slutty?" I've gone dress shopping more times than I care to admit with friends and the only time ive heard one of them ask that question was when she was looking specifically for a clubbing outfit and was trying to make someone else jealous. Otherwise, it's about fitment, whether a specific fabric might be too warm for an event, whether a specific cut would better fit her body style, etc.) I know no one playing these games really want to read through that stuff but adding some realism to those conversations will definitely help with the world building and will help hide a developer's personal lack of knowledge and also helps hide their own voice.

As well, meta jokes or references. I know they're put in for the reader's enjoyment, but they're usually out of character and place. An older character would be much more likely to reference a post-disco band rather than...hell, I dunno, I'm showing my age here... Drake's new single. And a high school lead cheerleader likely isn't going to make some obscure Silver Age comic book character joke. Everyone wants that nerdy, super hot girl, and I promise they do exist, but it's often done to such a degree that you'd think every girl is a closet nerd, just waiting for the perfect time to share their hobby with the MC.

Good writers intentionally go out of their comfort zone to make characters more believable, regardless of what sort of genre they're in.

 

[anne O'nymous]

What I mean is that almost all male MCs are fit youngsters with gigantic members. The average female is 18/25yo with a perfect body, big boobs and round ass. When we encounter a side character is almost always ugly, which means that is either a nerd or a fat guy.

Therefore, it's the opposite of most players, who are average Joe, with their averagely looking body and averagely big dick. Players who also have an averagely looking wife/girlfriend that, more or less, have the same, averagely old, age than them.
But, what is exactly the interest to play an adult game that will depict what is already your life ? Would you play a regular game named "Boring Average Office Job. Extended edition, now include the world famous extensions, 'Saturday kids match' and 'Sunday diner with your in-law family'" ? No, it's what you already do every single day of your life, you want something more appealing. You want something that can talk to your imagination, that can make you travel in unexplored territories.
Why should it be different just because it's adult games ? If my wife was still alive and I wanted to fap on average Joe and his average body, fucking his fortish years old wife with her falling boobs and stretch marks, I wouldn't fap, I would just have sex with my wife ; and it would be more interesting and more pleasing.

Game are here to satisfy our fantasies, and we rarely fantasy about what we already have.

 

[Agent HK47]

I have said this before, but I don't mind saying it again. The characters in these games looks like models, because that is what appeals to the masses. "If it ain't broke..." and all that. You don't like it and that's okay, but the majority of people DO like it and they are the targets of these developers. If there was a massive or even average demand for "average" looking characters, then you would see those in the games, because developers want their games to appeal to the masses.

Most people treat these games as an escape from their regular life. Why would they want to look at a "Plain Jane" when they see those all around them, all the time, in their own life? When I play the Sims, I don't want to build a tiny little house. No, I build massive mansions, which I could never afford to even look at in real life. In GTA, I drive the sports car, because I am tired of driving a shitty old Mazda, and I sure as hell ain't obeying traffic laws, because I do that plenty enough in my real life. When I play games, I want to feel FREE! I want to feel GOOD!
So, when I play adult games, I want to see some sexy bitches and guys with huge cocks, cause if I can't have sexy bitches or a huge cock in real life, then I can least pretend for a moment that I do, and then wallow in the depressive reality, that is my shitty life afterwards.

 

[MissFortune]

I have said this before, but I don't mind saying it again. The characters in these games looks like models, because that is what appeals to the masses. "If it ain't broke..." and all that. You don't like it and that's okay, but the majority of people DO like it and they are the targets of these developers. If there was a massive or even average demand for "average" looking characters, then you would see those in the games, because developers want their games to appeal to the masses.

Most people treat these games as an escape from their regular life. Why would they want to look at a "Plain Jane" when they see those all around them, all the time, in their own life? When I play the Sims, I don't want to build a tiny little house. No, I build massive mansions, which I could never afford to even look at in real life. In GTA, I drive the sports car, because I am tired of driving a shitty old Mazda, and I sure as hell ain't obeying traffic laws, because I do that plenty enough in my real life. When I play games, I want to feel FREE! I want to feel GOOD!
So, when I play adult games, I want to see some sexy bitches and guys with huge cocks, cause if I can't have sexy bitches or a huge cock in real life, then I can least pretend for a moment that I do, and then wallow in the depressive reality, that is my shitty life afterwards.

I do agree for the most part. Games like these, videos games, books, they're all just different vehicles for escapism made to appeal to different types of people and their tastes. But at the same time I do think having a smaller, flatter, plainer, glasses-wearing girl with freckles that isn't so model-y is a nice touch in games that do it - especially when said character has dimension/relatability to her.

 

[obibobi]

Yeah it should be more like Hollywood, Instagram and Tiktok, where people admire the looks of the completely average.

Sarcarm aside, porn games are about the visual, what's visually appealing, even more so than any other medium and as HK47 say's, we see the average all the time in real life. This opinion pops up all the time, whether it's someone who thinks its an untapped market (it isn't) or some body image thing, people want hot girls and the smartest thing to do is creative variations of that, boob size, intellect, race, attitude tropes, hair color and any other creative element you can throw into the mix.

Average just means intentionally less attractive and that actually takes more effort because flaws require detail. So more work for less enthusiam.

The only point worth addressing is the male side character. That's more about the ability of the writer, now not having one doesn't mean the game doesn't have good writing. But the writer actually needs to be pretty good to make the investment worth it. The only game I even feel comfortable saying does that is Being a Dik and I don't hold any other game to those standards.

 

[Deleted member 3768214]

So, when I play adult games, I want to see some sexy bitches and guys with huge cocks, cause if I can't have sexy bitches or a huge cock in real life, then I can least pretend for a moment that I do, and then wallow in the depressive reality, that is my shitty life afterwards.

This is exactly the problem in Visual Novels.
Why should I play a game that reminds me that I don't have a massive dong and I don't have a slutty Barbie as a wife?
Remembering people how shitty their life is, just make them more sad than they already are, and the game itself misses the point for which it is created: to entertain. In the end I don't feel entertained, I feel depressed and frustrated.

That's why games should point toward the direction of being more realistic, because I want to think that the story they tell could actually happen to me.

 

[Agent HK47]

This is exactly the problem in Visual Novels.
Why should I play a game that reminds me that I don't have a massive dong and I don't have a slutty Barbie as a wife?
Remembering people how shitty their life is, just make them more sad than they already are, and the game itself misses the point for which it is created: to entertain. In the end I don't feel entertained, I feel depressed and frustrated.

That's why games should point toward the direction of being more realistic, because I want to think that the story they tell could actually happen to me.

The problem with this point of view, is that most people don't see it as a reminder of their shitty life, but rather a brief fantasy of a better/more interesting life. Like I said, if people didn't like it, then games would stop using these tropes, but the simple fact of the matter stands: The majority of people want to play with things they don't have access to in their normal lives.

 

[Deleted member 3768214]

The problem with this point of view, is that most people don't see it as a reminder of their shitty life, but rather a brief fantasy of a better/more interesting life. Like I said, if people didn't like it, then games would stop using these tropes, but the simple fact of the matter stands: The majority of people want to play with things they don't have access to in their normal lives.

Looking at people who have a better life than yourself, just increases your depression. No way it's entertaining.
We are under a 360 degrees pressure on this topic. We are surrounded by "extremely beautyful, young, wealthy and happy people" everywhere we look: TV, movies, tabloids, newspapers, internet, social media influencers, shops... All the media point toward the direction of making you feel uncomfortable with your life. Isn't it enough? Do we really need the same also in a niche market as Visual Novels?

 

[Agent HK47]

Looking at people who have a better life than yourself, just increases your depression. No way it's entertaining.
We are under a 360 degrees pressure on this topic. We are surrounded by "extremely beautyful, young, wealthy and happy people" everywhere we look: TV, movies, tabloids, newspapers, internet, social media influencers, shops... All the media point toward the direction of making you feel uncomfortable with your life. Isn't it enough? Do we really need the same also in a niche market as Visual Novels?

Just saying, if everyone is doing it, clearly there is a demand for it. Hence why adult games goes with the flow.