Recommending Story-first games

[noping123]

well i generally agree.
When we talk about an adult game,we have to determine what is it trying to provide. Is it a story first game with sex in it,or is it just a porn game? Well,badik tries to be both,it has to. it is the most popular adult game,your generic pop hit on the radio.And that's ok. I'd say it maintains a pretty good balance generally. So it's audience consists of both story lovers and people who are there for porn. Besides,many people who say they love the story,what they really mean is "I like how the story fills out the time between the lewds. That's why non sexual VN's are so obscure and the interest in them is quite small. Sometimes even the devs who mostly focus on the story just need to add sex to it so there will be someone who will actually read their story. That's why I'm usually not really bothered by badik's writing issues,but this one is pretty bad. I know a lot of people who play these games mostly for the sexual content,but they are just not intimidated by another guy in the game or simply just want to see a hot lady getting boned,and they don't care who does the boning. There are also people who want a mature story and have similar view on this matter as you and I. There are also people who want both,to truly have a mature story and good lewds. But I would argue that badik's fanbase mostly consists of the "i like the story as long as it has boobs" as i described it before. They get immersed enough to care,and can't stand the fact someone else might be near their digital girls.Unfortunately they are shaping the standards for adult games and badik itself and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

I sort of disagree with that last point... sort of. Idk who said it, but someone did and I agree... badik is the Mcdonalds of avns. Massive. Mostly non-offensive. Not great in any way, but accessible, and acceptable. (And just like mcdonalds, there will be people who swear its utter crap, but a ridiculous amount of people still eat it, so they're obviously in the minority). And just like mcdonalds, there will be plenty of avns that try to copy badik, seeing it's sucess and wanting to do the same thing - so I guess you could say it is shaping the standard in that way - but that doesn't mean there isn't still room for....

Ok I'll drop the restaurant analogies now. Point is there's still plenty of room for games that do something different, and honestly most games that try to clone badik will fail, but a few won't, and it's successful enough that plenty of people will still try to roll the dice. But, plenty of people will still want to do their own thing, and try to create something different - or at least something they believe in, as opposed to something they believe will make money.

And honestly? There's nothing wrong with mcdonalds. It's quick food when you need quick food. It's not even close to the best, but it does the job, and without and real effort on the customers part. The problem is when it's the only thing you consume.

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

I sort of disagree with that last point... sort of. Idk who said it, but someone did and I agree... badik is the Mcdonalds of avns. Massive. Mostly non-offensive. Not great in any way, but accessible, and acceptable. (And just like mcdonalds, there will be people who swear its utter crap, but a ridiculous amount of people still eat it, so they're obviously in the minority). And just like mcdonalds, there will be plenty of avns that try to copy badik, seeing it's sucess and wanting to do the same thing - so I guess you could say it is shaping the standard in that way - but that doesn't mean there isn't still room for....

Ok I'll drop the restaurant analogies now. Point is there's still plenty of room for games that do something different, and honestly most games that try to clone badik will fail, but a few won't, and it's successful enough that plenty of people will still try to roll the dice. But, plenty of people will still want to do their own thing, and try to create something different - or at least something they believe in, as opposed to something they believe will make money.

And honestly? There's nothing wrong with mcdonalds. It's quick food when you need quick food. It's not even close to the best, but it does the job, and without and real effort on the customers part. The problem is when it's the only thing you consume.

the comparison to macdonald's is actually very good and that's what I had in mind talking about a pop song. I also dont think badik is bad by any means. I also didn't say there is not a room for doing things different,however in the ntr aspect,most will follow the strict one dick only policy,and those that don't are usually targeted at people who like ntr cuckold etc. And that's what I meant. I'm not saying most will follow badik. In fact I have noticed a change recently,with more games trying to go in the direction of putting more emphasis on the story,or include more extreme kinks. There are even games that successfully do both,and are popular. There are games like Pale Carnations and Desert stalker that have great story and lewds at the same time,and both of them have over a 1000 likes and are in the 1st page if you filter f95 by the rating. So things do change,I only meant the fear of ntr aspect of it.

 

[noping123]

the comparison to macdonald's is actually very good and that's what I had in mind talking about a pop song. I also dont think badik is bad by any means. I also didn't say there is not a room for doing things different,however in the ntr aspect,most will follow the strict one dick only policy,and those that don't are usually targeted at people who like ntr cuckold etc. And that's what I meant. I'm not saying most will follow badik. In fact I have noticed a change recently,with more games trying to go in the direction of putting more emphasis on the story,or include more extreme kinks. There are even games that successfully do both,and are popular. There are games like Pale Carnations and Desert stalker that have great story and lewds at the same time,and both of them have over a 1000 likes and are in the 1st page if you filter f95 by the rating. So things do change,I only meant the fear of ntr aspect of it.

Ah. Fair enough. I don't know much about, nor pay attention to the whole ntr debacle bs. Hell, my game one of the more popular woman in it, is dating the MC's best friend. I've been told this will cause me problems. I really don't care :\

I think ultimately all you can hope for is more people take my approach. (Except hopefully they are more talented than me) - which is, make a game you want to make, and that's that. Don't let all the other nonsense influence you into doing something to please someone else.

 

[jufot]

I think ultimately all you can hope for is more people take my approach [...] which is, make a game you want to make, and that's that. Don't let all the other nonsense influence you into doing something to please someone else.

This, I believe, is the single most important lesson an AVN developer can learn. If there's a vision you'd like to pursue, the worst thing you can do is invite "suggestions" from the peanut gallery. It never ends well. You either end up with something generic and boring, or something entirely nonsensical with an incoherent narrative. :/

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

Ah. Fair enough. I don't know much about, nor pay attention to the whole ntr debacle bs. Hell, my game one of the more popular woman in it, is dating the MC's best friend. I've been told this will cause me problems. I really don't care :\

I think ultimately all you can hope for is more people take my approach. (Except hopefully they are more talented than me) - which is, make a game you want to make, and that's that. Don't let all the other nonsense influence you into doing something to please someone else.

I agree completely and I hope to see the same. I haven't played your game yet,but I def will. If you are talking about the redhead from the previews,well I admire you for doing it,but this one hurts haha.I can see why she's popular.
Anyway I do see some changes in the way people are doing more and more games how they want,and that's great. However I'm afraid anyone who wants to make serious money must be very careful when it comes to other dudes and the whole ntr thing.

 

[noping123]

I agree completely and I hope to see the same. I haven't played your game yet,but I def will. If you are talking about the redhead from the previews,well I admire you for doing it,but this one hurts haha.I can see why she's popular.
Anyway I do see some changes in the way people are doing more and more games how they want,and that's great. However I'm afraid anyone who wants to make serious money must be very careful when it comes to other dudes and the whole ntr thing.

LOL. Nailed it in one. Yep, the redhead is MC's best friend's girlfriend. (The last pic in the previews). Honestly I wasn't thinking about anything when I created the character except what type of person she was, her personality, stuff like that - and then I wanted a look that matched with what I had sort of came up with. The fact that she just happens to be a hot redhead which seems to tick a lot of boxes for people... well. Shit happens!

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

LOL. Nailed it in one. Yep, the redhead is MC's best friend's girlfriend. (The last pic in the previews). Honestly I wasn't thinking about anything when I created the character except what type of person she was, her personality, stuff like that - and then I wanted a look that matched with what I had sort of came up with. The fact that she just happens to be a hot redhead which seems to tick a lot of boxes for people... well. Shit happens!

I feel like hot redheads and alt/goths are a must to include at this point lol.Not that there is anything wrong with that,I myself like both of those types and well,they are popular for a reason.

 

[noping123]

I feel like hot redheads and alt/goths are a must to include at this point lol.Not that there is anything wrong with that,I myself like both of those types and well,they are popular for a reason.

Honestly I think it's more so many people are into that. My game has both - the redhead like I said, that was just because I matched the look to the personality - the alt goth girl I have though? 100% because I really wanted one.

Some of the best scenes in my game (In my opinion at least. Others may disagree) are with her - part of that is because it makes sense for the story, part of it is because I'm just personally biased in favor of the character so much that she ends up getting most of the good stuff. I really should look into spreading the love around more tbh.

 

[desmosome]

Egads, Jufot -- your notorious anti-college game bias (NACGB) rears its fugly head again!

I'm glad that you liked the BAD interlude, which reinforces my difficult-to-contest hypothesis that it is a story-first game. While the story might not be _good_, it takes precedence over porn delivery, and while there are a fair number of porn tropes in the game, they are of secondary/tertiary importance relative to the plot. It might not be the best story-first game... but it does put the story first.

As for the way the story resonated for you -- I had a similar reaction. I'm still just barely young enough to remember what it was like to be 18... all the crazy energy and angst that entailed... and the amazingly dumb decisions that flowed from that state of affairs. So... it was easy for me to have empathy for Zoey and her decisions/mistakes.

There are plot driven stories and character driven stories (and fetish driven stories for porn, but let's ignore that for now). You obviously can't have a story without both, but the strengths of the dev and the focus of their writing is usually pretty easy to distinguish.

DPC has always been a character dude. The characters and their interactions are what drives the story forward by a huge margin. He writes good drama, but the characters are not always believable or realistic. Character driven stories generally place too much weight on the NPCs. The girls are expected to provide the lewds, the drama, and the plot (what little of it there is). To create some type of cohesive plot, they need to propel the story in certain directions and it often results in unconvincing moments that seem out of character.

Plot driven stories have a significant core premise or a persistent goal for the MC. This drives the entire narrative and the supporting cast can act within their character in the framwork of the plot. This makes it much easier to see realistic or believable characters that just have to act like you would expect in whatever situation or circumstances. Also, the plot takes center stage, and there is usually more urgency/stakes or immersion (literary meaning, not self-inserting).

Again, the characters and the plot are unable to exist in a vacuum. They depend on each other and act synergistically. The amount of impact each component has on driving the story forward can vary. With more emphasis on the characters, it inevitably feels like a dating sim and the story kinda takes the shape of a soap opera/k-drama/sitcom. The story is formed in accordance to the characters' needs. With more emphasis on the core plot, the story takes the shape of a novel/movie/serialized shows and the characters act within the setting according to their nature.

Personally, when it comes to non-fetishized content, I vastly prefer plot driven stories and think a proper "story-first" game need to fall in this category. I am probably in the minority because it's very apparent that the masses quite resoundingly go for character driven stories. For the general porn game consumer, they really just want to see hot girls being in love with the MC. In this sense, I agree with the other dude in comparing it with McD. Well, maybe not McDonalds but something like Wendy's or Chick-fil-a (whatever is considered a bit higher class fast food). DPC is pretty good at writing characters and dialogues (Acting Lessons >>> BaDIK).

 

[Raife]

There are plot driven stories and character driven stories (and fetish driven stories for porn, but let's ignore that for now). You obviously can't have a story without both, but the strengths of the dev and the focus of their writing is usually pretty easy to distinguish.

I don't disagree -- not at all. You're right that the dev is more interested in character than he is in plot.

But... just as fast food is still food, a cheesy, character-driven story is still a story. A story-first game can be sophisticated or demotic, character-driven or plot driven. I've never argued that BAD is a good story-driven game, just that it fits jufot's criteria.

BAD certainly is not a porn-driven slice of life game where the MC wakes up in the morning, pursues LIs 1-4, and goes to sleep. It's a fairly simple coming-of-age story in which a small town MC becomes an adult and decides what sort of person he wants to be, shaping and being shaped by the people around him.

It's no bildungsroman, that's for sure... but it's not mainly about the porn. There are also quite a few non-porn subplots (cliques, frat house repair, friendships-rivalries with non-LIs).

So... it's not a good story driven game, and it's character-driven, to be sure. But there is a (frequently cheesey, sometimes melodramatic, occasionally nonsensical) story that propels the player along.

 

[TheimmortalP]

Damn mandela effect. I could have sworn that Melody was on your list.

I'm curious, have you played it? Have you given your thoughts?

Also, really would appreciate if you played this, and gave your thoughts. It's one chapter, but it feels a short movie that really makes you want to see the sequel. It totally seems up your alley.

https://f95zone.to/threads/fates-determination-ep-1-extasy-games.108712/

 

[jufot]

Damn mandela effect. I could have sworn that Melody was on your list. I'm curious, have you played it? Have you given your thoughts?

I've played it. It's nice, and I enjoyed the musical references, but I don't consider it a story-first game because there is very little of it. For me, a good story needs compelling characters, an insightful theme, and a conflict with a satisfactory resolution.

Melody has no conflict, and no real message. The characters are paper-thin and are only defined in relation to the MC. No one thinks, believes, or does anything unless it somehow involves the MC.

Also, really would appreciate if you played this, and gave your thoughts. It's one chapter, but it feels a short movie that really makes you want to see the sequel. It totally seems up your alley.

https://f95zone.to/threads/fates-determination-ep-1-extasy-games.108712/

It really does look interesting, and it's been on my backlog for a while. I'll get to it soon

 

[jufot]

It's been a while since I did one of these, so here are my thoughts on some recent updates. In alphabetical order:

Accidental Assignment: The initial release was promising. We were given an interesting premise where the MC is assigned as an undercover to agent to a small company full of nice, innocent people who did not deserve MC's deception. But the latest update did absolutely nothing with that, and instead turned into a slice-of-life office drama. It wasn't bad by any means, but not what I was looking for either. Also, the developers are apparently unhappy with the financial prospects of their game and are scaling back their production. I'm still cautiously optimistic, but I've tapered my expectations.

A Father's Sins: After several humorous games with nonsensical stories, this is Pixieblink's attempt at a serious, story-driven VN. Well, it's a good one. Supernatural Catholic murder mystery is a good way to describe it. The game is still in its infancy, but there is already plenty of lore and intrigue. The pacing could use some work, but overall, I'm quite invested.

Caught in the Middle: I discovered this one just today! Tony is a photographer. He's calm and quiet. Carina is modelling for him. Kinda. She is distant and aloof. There is an air of mystery to her. Faye is Carina's friend. She is more "normal", but seems to have her own issues. There is no MC - they are all protagonists. This initial version is quite short, but there is something uneasy, or eerie about it that drew me in. I'll keep an eye on this one.

Divergence: Beyond The Singularity: This is a great sci-fi corporate thriller. Chapters 15 and 16 have been out since my last comment, and the story has finally reached its crescendo. Dominoes are about to fall down. People will get hurt, consequences will be felt! Divergence has an ensemble cast, without an MC and with most characters having relatively equal screen time. It feels like a serialized TV show, in a good way. It also has some of the best audiovisual design among AVNs, so it's definitely worth checking out.

Isabella - Dark Paths: Chapter 2.3 is out for patrons, with proofreading services by yours truly It's hard to say much without spoilers, but this chapter delves a bit further into MC's history and his connection to William. Alex remains my favourite character, and her increasingly obvious jealousy is endearing. It ends with a frustrating cliffhanger, so consider yourselves warned!

One Day at a Time: With chapter 10, Zoey Raven's drug recovery epic is slowly crawling towards its conclusion. Once completed, I could see someone removing the porny bits and use the rest as an educational tool. It's really that good.

Rebirth: Episode 4: Episode 3 is done and dusted! It was generally a slog, so it's good to see episode 4 pick up the pace. It seems like we're finally about to discover what's going on in that cave. Can't wait for the next update!

Rise of The White Flower: Chapter 8 is out! At 52000 words, it's the shortest one *ever*, which is a tad disappointing given the length of time between updates. But it makes sense storywise. This update felt like a transitory one - it winded down some big events from the previous chapters, and set the stage for even bigger things in the future. I never thought we'd meet Elara, so that was a nice surprise! For the uninitiated, Rise of The White Flower is overflowing with cheesy porn, but don't let that deter you. Such cheesy bits are entirely optional and don't interfere with the game's genuinely captivating story. You can tell that a lot of effort went into world building and lore. Why not give it a shot?

Terminus Reach: Sentinel 2: Now that Sorcerer has been finished, Talothral released the first chapter of his sequel to Terminus. My biggest gripe with the first game was that the story was tied to the sex scenes. If you were not willing to fuck everyone, you'd get a bad ending. It was immensely frustrating, so it's great to see that mistake corrected here. If you are like me, and think that impregnating every single woman on a space station (human or otherwise) and raising your multi-species children in a great big harem is unrealistic nonsense that does disservice to an otherwise engaging sci-fi story, well, rejoice because it's now completely avoidable! In Terminus 2, you can just stick to sleeping with your wife. How novel

That's it from me! Any games you folks have played recently?

 

[TheimmortalP]

I've played it. It's nice, and I enjoyed the musical references, but I don't consider it a story-first game because there is very little of it. For me, a good story needs compelling characters, an insightful theme, and a conflict with a satisfactory resolution.

Melody has no conflict, and no real message. The characters are paper-thin and are only defined in relation to the MC. No one thinks, believes, or does anything unless it somehow involves the MC.

Alright, that's totally valid. I guess I'm in love with the game because I find most of the characters so damn compelling and likable. I disagree about there being no conflict, and I think that Melody goes through a lot of character development, but yeah, it's one of those games where the conflict isn't really the focus, that's for sure.

On a related note, I actually was gonna recommend Life with Mary to you as well, started playing it last night, and I went through a lot of it in one day. I think it's got some good messages that I really take to heart, and I am just in love with the dialogue. It's got a lot of it, but every sentence feels short, and to the point, and really makes you wanna keep reading more. I don't know if should recommend it to you or not anymore, but I did wanna talk about it with you, and people who have similar interests.

 

[jufot]

I actually was gonna recommend Life with Mary to you as well

I played that one a couple of years ago. It's the Rebirth developer's first game. It was nice, if not very memorable. You should share your thoughts here once you're done with it

 

[Jaike]

Supernatural Catholic murder mystery is a good way to describe it.

So, no sexual content, right?

That's it from me! Any games you folks have played recently?

I wouldn't dare mention most of the games and VNs I've been playing in the last two months in this topic. But one very good one I've played a lot is Ladykiller in a Bind! It's really well-written in the dialogues and the evident "social interaction" plot, though the 'hidden' plot is at least a little silly. There's apparently a rape scene in it, but it's said to be easy to miss. It's easily in my top 10 overall and also in my top 10 of the best written games!

I don't play a lot anymore, but A Summer's End and replays of Sanguine Rose are next on my list.

On a related note, I actually was gonna recommend Life with Mary to you as well, started playing it last night, and I went through a lot of it in one day. I think it's got some good messages that I really take to heart, and I am just in love with the dialogue. It's got a lot of it, but every sentence feels short, and to the point, and really makes you wanna keep reading more. I don't know if should recommend it to you or not anymore, but I did wanna talk about it with you, and people who have similar interests.

Is that the VN where a middle-aged guy lets a teen read War and Peace to him? Should've been Dostoyevsky, that would've felt like a proper middle finger to Nabokov.

I think it's a cute VN, but not really story-heavy. A good light one to suggest to others here, but not something I'd expect in the OP.

 

[jufot]

So, no sexual content, right?

Oh yes, it's fully compliant with scripture. There are

You must be registered to see the links

though

one very good one I've played a lot is Ladykiller in a Bind! [...] It's easily in my top 10 overall and also in my top 10 of the best written games!

That's the second time it's been recommended in this thread. Was it you, the first time around? It's still on my backlog, I should probably bump it up a slot or two.

I don't play a lot anymore, but A Summer's End and replays of Sanguine Rose are next on my list.

I have a feeling A Summer's End will go straight into your top 10. Everyone I know who played that game came out thoroughly impressed.

 

[nicod]

nice menu really keep it up please

 

[badtimetales]

Chapter 2.3 is out for patrons, with proofreading services by yours truly

A big thanks for that, great work!

It ends with a frustrating cliffhanger, so consider yourselves warned!

That's it from me! Any games you folks have played recently?

https://f95zone.to/threads/the-seven-realms-v0-1-1-septcloud.112700/page-7#post-7860896 by SeptCloud

Too early to judge (as they have really ambitious plans), but from a dev's view they put a lot of work in it. I really like the writing.

 

[Pixieblink]

It's been a while since I did one of these, so here are my thoughts on some recent updates. In alphabetical order:

Accidental Assignment: The initial release was promising. We were given an interesting premise where the MC is assigned as an undercover to agent to a small company full of nice, innocent people who did not deserve MC's deception. But the latest update did absolutely nothing with that, and instead turned into a slice-of-life office drama. It wasn't bad by any means, but not what I was looking for either. Also, the developers are apparently unhappy with the financial prospects of their game and are scaling back their production. I'm still cautiously optimistic, but I've tapered my expectations.

A Father's Sins: After several humorous games with nonsensical stories, this is Pixieblink's attempt at a serious, story-driven VN. Well, it's a good one. Supernatural Catholic murder mystery is a good way to describe it. The game is still in its infancy, but there is already plenty of lore and intrigue. The pacing could use some work, but overall, I'm quite invested.

Caught in the Middle: I discovered this one just today! Tony is a photographer. He's calm and quiet. Carina is modelling for him. Kinda. She is distant and aloof. There is an air of mystery to her. Faye is Carina's friend. She is more "normal", but seems to have her own issues. There is no MC - they are all protagonists. This initial version is quite short, but there is something uneasy, or eerie about it that drew me in. I'll keep an eye on this one.

Divergence: Beyond The Singularity: This is a great sci-fi corporate thriller. Chapters 15 and 16 have been out since my last comment, and the story has finally reached its crescendo. Dominoes are about to fall down. People will get hurt, consequences will be felt! Divergence has an ensemble cast, without an MC and with most characters having relatively equal screen time. It feels like a serialized TV show, in a good way. It also has some of the best audiovisual design among AVNs, so it's definitely worth checking out.

Isabella - Dark Paths: Chapter 2.3 is out for patrons, with proofreading services by yours truly It's hard to say much without spoilers, but this chapter delves a bit further into MC's history and his connection to William. Alex remains my favourite character, and her increasingly obvious jealousy is endearing. It ends with a frustrating cliffhanger, so consider yourselves warned!

One Day at a Time: With chapter 10, Zoey Raven's drug recovery epic is slowly crawling towards its conclusion. Once completed, I could see someone removing the porny bits and use the rest as an educational tool. It's really that good.

Rebirth: Episode 4: Episode 3 is done and dusted! It was generally a slog, so it's good to see episode 4 pick up the pace. It seems like we're finally about to discover what's going on in that cave. Can't wait for the next update!

Rise of The White Flower: Chapter 8 is out! At 52000 words, it's the shortest one *ever*, which is a tad disappointing given the length of time between updates. But it makes sense storywise. This update felt like a transitory one - it winded down some big events from the previous chapters, and set the stage for even bigger things in the future. I never thought we'd meet Elara, so that was a nice surprise! For the uninitiated, Rise of The White Flower is overflowing with cheesy porn, but don't let that deter you. Such cheesy bits are entirely optional and don't interfere with the game's genuinely captivating story. You can tell that a lot of effort went into world building and lore. Why not give it a shot?

Terminus Reach: Sentinel 2: Now that Sorcerer has been finished, Talothral released the first chapter of his sequel to Terminus. My biggest gripe with the first game was that the story was tied to the sex scenes. If you were not willing to fuck everyone, you'd get a bad ending. It was immensely frustrating, so it's great to see that mistake corrected here. If you are like me, and think that impregnating every single woman on a space station (human or otherwise) and raising your multi-species children in a great big harem is unrealistic nonsense that does disservice to an otherwise engaging sci-fi story, well, rejoice because it's now completely avoidable! In Terminus 2, you can just stick to sleeping with your wife. How novel

That's it from me! Any games you folks have played recently?

Wow, second place? Cool! Glad you enjoyed the game.
Ahhh shit, I just realized they're in alphabetical order

Still, glad you enjoyed the game and thanks for the mention it.
Any comments / suggestions are always welcome.