Story or freedom?

[Grumpy Eagle]

Well it depends what do you want but story is IMO most important. People tend to say, that they need lot's of choices and freedom of decision but I would say that 95% of the game doesn't have it. It's simply way to difficult for amateur developer to create game with choices. And with choices I mean choices that actually change the story. Most of the games with choices work on the same principle. With every decision you get 3-4 different sentences and then you are back in "kinetic novel". Your choice doesn't matter.

So for me:
Great story and no choices = it can be great game
Bad story and lot's of choices = why would you play this game when it has crappy story? I don't care about 10 different endings when the game is boring shit.

 

[Akamari]

Great story and no choices = it can be great game

Except it's no longer a game then. If you don't have any input, you're not playing. You're reading a book with pictures (or browsing pictures with words). Those can be great too of course.

I suppose that's where the term visual novel is misleading as it includes both a game and a non-game format. The term "Kinetic novels" somewhat makes it clear they aren't games, but then there are indeed many "games" that only pretend to be games by offering only superficial choices that don't matter.

 

[Grumpy Eagle]

Except it's no longer a game then. If you don't have any input, you're not playing. You're reading a book with pictures (or browsing pictures with words). Those can be great too of course.

I suppose that's where the term visual novel is misleading as it includes both a game and a non-game format. The term "Kinetic novels" somewhat makes it clear they aren't games, but then there are indeed many "games" that only pretend to be games by offering superficial choices that don't matter.

I mean superficial choices with no impact can be also useful. Game experience can be much higher if you can choose what is MC saying even if the choice doesn't change the story. But you cannot overuse it and it should be clear that these decision doesn't change the story.

What piss me off is when these choices look like most important decision in your life and at the end doesn't have any impact.

How I said, I think that most of the games or visual novels presented here are more or less kinetic novels.
The point is that the developers are (sometimes) forced to present their kinetic novel as game or at least visual novel.
Many players refuse to "play" kinetic novel. Ok, let's add some crappy choices and present it as a visual novel.
From the developers point of view it makes sence.

 

[Archronique]

Why not both?
I'm kinda tired of the trend "either it's the story or it's the gameplay", that's exactly why I'm gonna launch my own game in the coming days.

A game with only a story (which will almost always be linear) is not a game but an ebook with images.
A game with only gameplay is not going to give me the envy to progress, I will just want to cheat to see the all the content.

 

[Grumpy Eagle]

Why not both?
I'm kinda tired of the trend "either it's the story or it's the gameplay", that's exactly why I'm gonna launch my own game in the coming days.

A game with only a story (which will almost always be linear) is not a game but an ebook with images.
A game with only gameplay is not going to give me the envy to progress, I will just want to cheat to see the all the content.

Don't know what you mean by "gameplay" but if you mean choices that actually change the story... I don't believe it is possible (in the long term) for one developer. Of course if you have team it is different story.

 

[Archronique]

By gameplay I mean everything that is more than "click to see the next dialogue/scene".

I agree with you, that's going to be hard in the long term if you want to stay alone AND have real updates released in a decent amount of time.

But in the begining I think that lay the foundation alone and then build a team when your game takes off is totally possible and I will try to prove it (I just released my introduction).

 

[Akamari]

I don't believe it is possible (in the long term) for one developer. Of course if you have team it is different story.

It is very much possible, but very rare! For example, Heavy Five is exactly such a game that is not linear and has many choices that matter. It is planned to have 116 paths by the end which are all plotted already.

 

[Rythan25]

It is very much possible, but very rare! For example, Heavy Five is exactly such a game that is not linear and has many choices that matter. It is planned to have 116 paths by the end which are all plotted already.

Yeah and the game gets updated every what ? 3 or 4 months ? That's not a knock against Notravis either, but by that point I already lost interest... I don't think I have even played ch3 despite it sitting in my desktop since it came out... I gave preference to newer things even, like Forever Ink, Callisto, Halfway House, etc....

 

[Akamari]

Yeah and the game gets updated every what ? 3 or 4 months ? That's not a knock against Notravis either, but by that point I already lost interest... I don't think I have even played ch3 despite it sitting in my desktop since it came out... I gave preference to newer things even, like Forever Ink, Callisto, Halfway House, etc....

6-8 weeks with around 800 renders and it will get bigger as she upgrades her rig hopefully.

 

[Grumpy Eagle]

It is very much possible, but very rare! For example, Heavy Five is exactly such a game that is not linear and has many choices that matter. It is planned to have 116 paths by the end which are all plotted already.

116 paths? Wow.

I'm developing a game as well and I have to say that I admire all developers who are able to add more paths into their game.

I cannot do it because of many reasons. The biggest one is fact that I already have a story I want to talk about. If I tried to create another branches I realized that I don't care about those other paths and I don't enjoy them at all.

If I want to tell the story about romantic love I cannot add a different storyline with harem just to please the audience. I cannot do it because I don't enjoy creating this branch. But that is my personal "problem".

Point is. Many paths are contraproductive. If you have 20 paths and you have to create story for each of them... 10 minutes gameplay in every path mean, that you have to create more than 3 hours of game play in total. That is crazy.

 

[Akamari]

116 paths? Wow.

I'm developing a game as well and I have to say that I admire all developers who are able to add more paths into their game.

I cannot do it because of many reasons. The biggest one is fact that I already have a story I want to talk about. If I tried to create another branches I realized that I don't care about those other paths and I don't enjoy them at all.

If I want to tell the story about romantic love I cannot add a different storyline with harem just to please the audience. I cannot do it because I don't enjoy creating this branch. But that is my personal "problem".

Point is. Many paths are contraproductive. If you have 20 paths and you have to create story for each of them... 10 minutes gameplay in every path mean, that you have to create more than 3 hours of game play in total. That is crazy.

These paths revolve around several main routes and they all revolve around one main plot. That 116 number is more of an indication of how many playthroughs it would take to see everything. But that is not the goal of the game, it's about having choices and consequences, so that every player can have different experience based on their choices. Want to see more? Replay a new character. It's really quite complex, but not crazy. At this point, (chapter 3 out of 10) there are about 5 to 6 routes fully ongoing with more on the horizon. And yes, it takes quite some time to play (it all depends how much player wants to see).

I can't really do it justice with words, so I recommend checking it out. It's a very unique approach, different from every other adult game I know.

As for your game, you should definitely create only what you want to create. But, like I said before, if you want it to be a game, you need to give the player some agency, some way to impact the story.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

I liken the distinction to, on the one hand, a conventional roller-coaster ride that's the same path and experience every time. On the other hand, a reconfigurable roller-coaster whose pathway can be set the way you want it, though it still eventually ends at the same place. The latter is more entertaining, at least potentially, but it's a lot more work to create. You can have a game with more or less a straight path and single ending; a game with a few branching paths and different primary endings; or even a game with multiple branching paths and different endings for both the main story and each of the major love interests of the protagonist. The last option, if done well, will be highly appealing and highly received, and will even have replay value. But it's also the most demanding/challenging from a storytelling and game design standpoint. The first option might wind up being half a gig in size, while the third might clock in above 5 gigs.
I love a good story, AND I like having some freedom of action within a game--having a choice as to how I'm going to seduce a character, in what order I might choose to seduce characters, and what kind of arrangement I want to have with a group of characters, etc. I don't really like forced choice scenarios or scenarios that seem to emphasize the relative powerlessness of lack of choice of the main character. I like having the option to NOT be a creep(or a cuck), for example.

 

[Nottravis]

Yeah and the game gets updated every what ? 3 or 4 months ? That's not a knock against Notravis either, but by that point I already lost interest... I don't think I have even played ch3 despite it sitting in my desktop since it came out... I gave preference to newer things even, like Forever Ink, Callisto, Halfway House, etc....

Can't say I blame you after all that time either

Sadly I was off ill for a few months which was the biggie for the gap, but these things happen.

 

[GreenLizy]

By gameplay I mean everything that is more than "click to see the next dialogue/scene".

I agree with you, that's going to be hard in the long term if you want to stay alone AND have real updates released in a decent amount of time.

But in the begining I think that lay the foundation alone and then build a team when your game takes off is totally possible and I will try to prove it (I just released my introduction).

It's not that easy to make 20 drawing a month... My question is more like "more story or more freedom"

 

[I'm Not Thea Lundgren!]

116 paths? Wow.

I believe that Notty originally planned to have 200 paths/endings and 16 chapters but cut it down.
It really is a great game that everyone should try at least once, even if just to see the quality of the writing, the extras like the artwork, the premise, the game are all great too!

 

[Lolzi]

You can have both by all means, but freedom of choice is important. Some people like linear role-playing games (see popularity of VNs) other people like well... Minecraft. I hate being railroaded into a choice I have no inclination of making (especially with no foreshadowing of why the character might want that).

Consequently, I'm now averse to most VNs but some of the text based games are growing on me as they have more freedom. I enjoy Breeders of Nephelym but it's well, a bit short.

 

[Nottravis]

I hate being railroaded into a choice I have no inclination of making (especially with no foreshadowing of why the character might want that).

Couldn't agree more. Why give the illusion of choice just to have it snatched away from me?

I believe that Notty originally planned to have 200 paths/endings and 16 chapters but cut it down

*thought peeps would get bored!*

It really is a great game that everyone should try at least once, even if just to see the quality of the writing, the extras like the artwork, the premise, the game are all great too!

Too kind

 

[I'm Not Thea Lundgren!]

Couldn't agree more. Why give the illusion of choice just to have it snatched away from me?

It's not really a choice if the game takes you to the same place anyway.

*thought peeps would get bored!*

With what I've seen so far of your writing, that's highly unlikely; but everyone's tastes are different so who am I to say?
But your writing and narrative fit my tastes just fine

Too kind

 

[Tumai]

When I saw the score was tied when I came across this poll I had to vote (for story) and necro this thread for another round

Bottom line is;
I only care about choices IF the story is good in the first place - in which case, my save slots balloon.

If the story is crap, lots of freedom makes no difference - it goes straight to the delete bin.

 

[Droid Productions]

Put me down for another vote in



A porngame without characters I can engage with does nothing for me. A story I cannot interact with is not a game. It doesn't have to be a tree of death, or an open world sandbox, but I'd like some degree of gameplay in my game.