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anne O'nymous

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[half sorry for the double post]

No, no they do not have "better customer service" - As for a "better platform," that's a Coke vs. Pepsi debate - I have no clue about their payouts.
As I read it, in this part he talked about Patreon, that actually have a better customer service, is a better platform, and don't have fucked up payouts rules. What make them a better alternative than SubscribeStar and explain why SubscribeStar had to focus on the banned content in order to stay attractive.
 

Iexist

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If you did indeed explain this "apology of a crime" thing before, I'll see if I can look it up via searching. What you're saying about that particular subject makes no logical sense to me. At least, in the sense that if "rape" and "underage sex" are specifically like that, there must be some kind of scientific reason why these two are "worse" than violence, theft, murder, racism and all sorts of other things we've had in fiction of all kinds. Especially in cases of games where the player explicitly plays a criminal like GTA or even Hitman.

That's before even getting into whether rape is explicitly worse than murder or not, morally or legally. The debates about that could go on all over the place.

As is, I do not agree with the idea that fiction and fantasies of illegal and/or immoral acts constitute any kind of apology for crime, or attempts to normalize criminal acts, or anything of the sort. If there's some scientific proof in that direction that doesn't involve already mentally disturbed individuals (which can be triggered even if they live perfectly normal lives), then I have yet to see said proof, studies, etc.

That said, I'll leave it at that. I think this has gone entirely off topic, so I'll back out and do my post searches now.
 

anne O'nymous

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If you did indeed explain this "apology of a crime" thing before, I'll see if I can look it up via searching. What you're saying about that particular subject makes no logical sense to me. At least, in the sense that if "rape" and "underage sex" are specifically like that, there must be some kind of scientific reason why these two are "worse" than violence, theft, murder, racism and all sorts of other things we've had in fiction of all kinds. Especially in cases of games where the player explicitly plays a criminal like GTA or even Hitman.
You read the explanation, but clearly missed the "reward Vs consequences" part.

It's not, and have never been, that violence, theft, murder and racism are less bad than rape and underage sex. It about the way the game will react to those "bad actions".

If you do one or another of the first four in GTA, or any games like it, you'll raise the alert level. If the alert level is too high, you'll be chased by cops (or whatever serve as authority in the game; hello Saints Row), what interfere with your playthrough and possibly with your current mission. You can do "bad actions", but you'll have to deal with the consequences, that are always negative for you. The whole game is designed for you to stay as cautious as possible, even if it's possible to follow a wilder play.
At the opposite, if you do one or another of the two last in a game, you'll access the sex scene you're here to see. The whole game is designed for you to perform as much "bad actions" as possible, rewarding you for every single one of them. And this is precisely what "apology of a crime" is.
As for Hitman, the whole game mechanism is to stay as furtive as possible, doing only one "bad action" by mission, the one that is your objective. The more you'll do otherwise, the higher are the risk that you fail the mission. As immoral as being in the shoes of a hitman can be, the message behind the game is precisely that violence and collateral damages are never the solution. Therefore it goes at the exact opposite of the apology of a crime.


That's before even getting into whether rape is explicitly worse than murder or not, morally or legally. The debates about that could go on all over the place.
Reason why I don't talk about morality, but about apology...
Words have a meaning, and when one use a given word, it's because it's that word that have to be used there. And this apply even more when it come to the Law.


As is, I do not agree with the idea that fiction and fantasies of illegal and/or immoral acts constitute any kind of apology for crime, or attempts to normalize criminal acts, or anything of the sort.
Good for you, but it doesn't mean that you are right. Especially since you clearly don't even understand what "apology" actually mean.


If there's some scientific proof in that direction that doesn't involve already mentally disturbed individuals (which can be triggered even if they live perfectly normal lives), then I have yet to see said proof, studies, etc.
See what I said right above? I talk about "apology", so why the fuck do you want to know if it's, or not, an "incentive"? Those aren't the same words and absolutely not the same concepts.
"Incentive to commit a crime" is also illegal, but this doesn't make it the same than "apology of a crime".



I know, I said that... But well, I'm just human and a bit bored right now.
 
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DuniX

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People will go to any alternative they can until they can't.
Then all hell breaks loose.

I don't understand why politicians keep messing with the people's bread and circuses.
They pissed the MILFs, they pissed the Furries, they pissed the Anime fans.
Is there any Porn community that weren't targeted?
What are people supposed to fap to nowadays?
What they think people are still goody two shoes Christians nowadays? They have actively destroyed that for decades with the Woke and Feminism.
 
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People will go to any alternative they can until they can't.
Then all hell breaks loose.

I don't understand why politicians keep messing with the people's bread and circuses.
They pissed the MILFs, they pissed the Furries, they pissed the Anime fans.
Is there any Porn community that weren't targeted?
What are people supposed to fap to nowadays?
What they think people are still goody two shoes Christians nowadays? They have actively destroyed that for decades with the Woke and Feminism.
Politicians know the world is tense so they are all attempting to look like the decent people and doing "what's right", or so they say. There are far bigger, more horrifying issues with society than people watching porn or playing some game that has incest and stuff.

Honestly, it feels like this is a huge smoke screen to make the actual issues appear not as important while doing something society might think is "good". Because not many will go out in public and say, "Porn is not bad though!". Targeting porn and violence in games and media because it's easy and people is always so easily offended by these. Then we have most people focusing on this one issue and not looking at the others. Because protecting kids is important right? Except this isn't about protecting anyone.

I have not a single thought of killing or raping or some other freaky shit. But the moment someone sees the list of games, series and animations I've gone through, they won't care, I'll be a ticking bomb for them, dangerous, sick, a menace.

I'm sure Hitler played GTA and went crazy and that the romans loved seeing gladiators horribly maim each other because they saw Attack on Titan, and then have a massive orgy because they played A Wife and Mother. I'm sure World War happened because some guy played too much CoD and shot some archduke or something. Wait...

Like, fuck... It's so absolutely fucking stupid, and yet here we are in a world where you cannot say you enjoy anything because someone will find an issue with it.
 
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anne O'nymous

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The funniest part is that the two last comments are wrote on the thread about the only porn related site on internet that implemented world wide age check on its own, without a single external pressure...
 

ippotimmo

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One thing i really don't understand, why the incest is seen so badly in the videogames. I mean, ok it is illegal in many countries, but also theft, torture, rape, violence, murder and all these actions cause harm to people, but not the incest.

Let's say that if you play incest videogames, then you want to have sex with your sister and your mom.
So what?
What harm does it do to others? (Of course i mean that your sister and your mom are consenting)
 

morphnet

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Let's say that if you play incest videogames, then you want to have sex with your sister and your mom.
So what?
What harm does it do to others? (Of course i mean that your sister and your mom are consenting)
You can't frame the questions in a favorable light to downplay it. Many cases don't involve all parties consenting, families are often torn apart. Children removed and placed in the welfare system. Family members, sometimes whole families are ostracized etc. and even when it does involve all parties consenting there are legal consequences, social and community fallout and some cases have ended in suicide or murder / suicide.

There can be far reaching consequences not just for those directly involved but also for the family, friends and sometimes even whole communities.

It's not a good idea to confuse fantasy and reality, it's not a good idea to compare video games / violent video games and porn games and it is also not a good idea to compare fantasy and reality.
 
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ippotimmo

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You can't frame the questions in a favorable light to downplay it. Many cases don't involve all parties consenting, families are often torn apart. Children removed and placed in the welfare system. Family members, sometimes whole families are ostracized etc. and even when it does involve all parties consenting there are legal consequences, social and community fallout and some cases have ended in suicide or murder / suicide.

There can be far reaching consequences not just for those directly involved but also for the family, friends and sometimes even whole communities.

It's not a good idea to confuse fantasy and reality, it's not a good idea to compare video games / violent video games and porn games and it is also not a good idea to compare fantasy and reality.
Ok incest is harmful too (i'm not considering the incest porn videos that you can find in pornsites)

Anyway why it's not a good idea to compare videogames / violent videogames and porn games when there are illegal themes that are allowed and illegal themes that are not allowed?

(Speaking of confusing fantasy and reality, I simply continued the examples done 2 posts above mine)
 
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anne O'nymous

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One thing i really don't understand, why the incest is seen so badly in the videogames. I mean, ok it is illegal in many countries, but also theft, torture, rape, violence, murder and all these actions cause harm to people, but not the incest.
If at least there were a post, by example in this thread and page, explaining all this...
 
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ippotimmo

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If at least there were a post, by example in this thread and page, explaining all this...
Yes yes I didn't miss your post
But
1) to have sex with mom/sister/daughter/son, in some games you have to do negative actions to reach the goal, in other games the negative actions arent necessary
2) Anyway we are talking about videogames for adult and your explanation (which i understood) seems more appropriate for non-adult players, i mean that an underage player can confuse fiction with reality
 

anne O'nymous

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2) Anyway we are talking about videogames for adult and your explanation (which i understood) seems more appropriate for non-adult players, i mean that an underage player can confuse fiction with reality
"Apology" is still not the same than "incentive".
It's the second that can have an impact that differ depending on the person and its, hmm... Let's call it "mental vulnerability". But apology is something radically different that do not address the possible effect, just the initial intent as it is perceived.

Of course, no incest game are made in order to actually make the apology of incest; at least I hope. But the lack of consequences for the "bad actions", and the reward you get when doing them, make it looks like it. And starting to establish a list of topics that should be excluded from the notion of apology isn't a viable solution, because it would be opening a really dangerous Pandora box. Today it will be incest, tomorrow it will be what? After all, loli games too aren't an apology... most of the time (see below).
The same limits apply to the fictional nature of the content. Making a game where you are rewarded for each person wearing a yellow star that you'll kill would be obviously seen as anti-Semitic. But would the game really be better is you replace the yellow star by a red diamond? It would become a pure fiction, since no group of individual, nor community, is associated to this symbol, but anyone with a bit of common sense would understand what is implied behind this.

It's sad, but there's few cases like this where you can't make exceptions, or try to write the law more finely, without opening the gate for those who are waiting nothing else than a way to legally express their own hate or deep deprivation. For the last one, I'm talking about the harmful ones, thinking about loli games devs like , who, among other charges, owned real life p*d*shit content and was recording what happened in few neighbours' bedroom, or, worse, pers0nas, who sexually assaulted too many underage girls.
Obviously, they are the exception. But it's this exception that make the rule looks more than necessary in the eyes of the world. As member of this community we know better, but as long as people like those twos exist and can hide behind their fiction to gather attention from people like them, building connections and opening more opportunities for themselves and others, what should we do? Turn our sigh and act as if they where the only two? Endure the repression? Find a way to actively fight them?
The first one is a big no for me. The third one, I contributed to it in the past, and feel like nothing changed. The second one? I don't really like it more than anyone else, but it's the least worse I can think about...
 

morphnet

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Ok incest is harmful too (i'm not considering the incest porn videos that you can find in pornsites)
Yes it can be, also not sure what incest porn videos on porn sites has to do with this?

Anyway why it's not a good idea to compare videogames / violent videogames and porn games when there are illegal themes that are allowed and illegal themes that are not allowed?
One explanation was given by Anne, the others are because video games / violent video games have been and still are attacked BUT they have been successfully defended time and again, whereas porn games have been and still are being attacked and have not even been defended.

This means that video games / violent video games have the acceptance and protection of the law at the very least. This DOES NOT mean that the judges, lawmakers etc. like or agree with them, just that that accept and acknowledge that they are more than just the violence in them. (see links below as well as quotes from the links)

Porn games DO NOT have this and there is very little to no chance that they will been seen as having anything BUT the sex in them and this ties into what anne said.



"On further appeal, the U.S. Supreme Court also determined the California law violated the First Amendment by a 7-2 vote. Writing for the majority, Justice Antonin Scalia rejected the state’s argument that violent video games could qualify as obscenity. “Our cases have been clear that the obscenity exception to the First Amendment does not cover whatever a legislature finds shocking, but only depictions of sexual conduct,” he wrote."



" In Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Ass’n (2011), the Court explained: “Like the protected books, plays, and movies that preceded them, video games communicate ideas — and even social messages — through many familiar literary devices … and through features distinctive to the medium. That suffices to confer First Amendment protection.” "

(Speaking of confusing fantasy and reality, I simply continued the examples done 2 posts above mine)
Those were bad examples, also it's NOT just about confusing fantasy and reality, it's also about comparing fantasy and reality. If in doubt don't take their word OR mine, go search and find the information, it's all online and easy to find. Don't rely on opinions and hearsay, find factual sources, recorded court cases, documented cases etc.
 
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ippotimmo

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"Apology" is still not the same than "incentive".
It's the second that can have an impact that differ depending on the person and its, hmm... Let's call it "mental vulnerability". But apology is something radically different that do not address the possible effect, just the initial intent as it is perceived.

Of course, no incest game are made in order to actually make the apology of incest; at least I hope. But the lack of consequences for the "bad actions", and the reward you get when doing them, make it looks like it. And starting to establish a list of topics that should be excluded from the notion of apology isn't a viable solution, because it would be opening a really dangerous Pandora box. Today it will be incest, tomorrow it will be what? After all, loli games too aren't an apology... most of the time (see below).
The same limits apply to the fictional nature of the content. Making a game where you are rewarded for each person wearing a yellow star that you'll kill would be obviously seen as anti-Semitic. But would the game really be better is you replace the yellow star by a red diamond? It would become a pure fiction, since no group of individual, nor community, is associated to this symbol, but anyone with a bit of common sense would understand what is implied behind this.

It's sad, but there's few cases like this where you can't make exceptions, or try to write the law more finely, without opening the gate for those who are waiting nothing else than a way to legally express their own hate or deep deprivation. For the last one, I'm talking about the harmful ones, thinking about loli games devs like , who, among other charges, owned real life p*d*shit content and was recording what happened in few neighbours' bedroom, or, worse, pers0nas, who sexually assaulted too many underage girls.
Obviously, they are the exception. But it's this exception that make the rule looks more than necessary in the eyes of the world. As member of this community we know better, but as long as people like those twos exist and can hide behind their fiction to gather attention from people like them, building connections and opening more opportunities for themselves and others, what should we do? Turn our sigh and act as if they where the only two? Endure the repression? Find a way to actively fight them?
The first one is a big no for me. The third one, I contributed to it in the past, and feel like nothing changed. The second one? I don't really like it more than anyone else, but it's the least worse I can think about...
Thank you for the detailed explanation
 
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ippotimmo

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One explanation was given by Anne, the others are because video games / violent video games have been and still are attacked BUT they have been successfully defended time and again, whereas porn games have been and still are being attacked and have not even been defended.

This means that video games / violent video games have the acceptance and protection of the law at the very least. This DOES NOT mean that the judges, lawmakers etc. like or agree with them, just that that accept and acknowledge that they are more than just the violence in them. (see links below as well as quotes from the links)

Porn games DO NOT have this and there is very little to no chance that they will been seen as having anything BUT the sex in them and this ties into what anne said.



"On further appeal, the U.S. Supreme Court also determined the California law violated the First Amendment by a 7-2 vote. Writing for the majority, Justice Antonin Scalia rejected the state’s argument that violent video games could qualify as obscenity. “Our cases have been clear that the obscenity exception to the First Amendment does not cover whatever a legislature finds shocking, but only depictions of sexual conduct,” he wrote."



" In Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Ass’n (2011), the Court explained: “Like the protected books, plays, and movies that preceded them, video games communicate ideas — and even social messages — through many familiar literary devices … and through features distinctive to the medium. That suffices to confer First Amendment protection.” "



Those were bad examples, also it's NOT just about confusing fantasy and reality, it's also about comparing fantasy and reality. If in doubt don't take their word OR mine, go search and find the information, it's all online and easy to find. Don't rely on opinions and hearsay, find factual sources, recorded court cases, documented cases etc.
Yes yes now the situation is clearer for me. Thanks



Yes it can be, also not sure what incest porn videos on porn sites has to do with this?
I just wanted to say that even if incest is illegal, there are porn actresses (sis/sis, twins, mom/dau) who make money from real incest videos
 

anne O'nymous

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I just wanted to say that even if incest is illegal, there are porn actresses (sis/sis, twins, mom/dau) who make money from real incest videos
They are, yes. And in before, yes "real related", not just "faking to be related". But, precisely due to the amount of fake ones, it's hard to catch. This even with the now obligation for porn platform to ensure that everyone involved in the movie is of legal age and consenting; this because two married sisters will have radically different names, same for a mother and her married daughter.
It's totally unfair that they can avoid the ban hammer while games can't. But lets be realist here, porn movies platform stand on a radically different level. PornHub, that got all the attention, had real rape videos, real underage videos, and sometimes videos with both at once. With the hundreds thousands videos that the biggest platform hosts, it's relatively safe to say that they still have some... It will need time before they fully clean themselves. And this obviously wrong content permit to hide the rest.
Not that it's fair, as I said it isn't, but it's the sad reality...
 

morphnet

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I just wanted to say that even if incest is illegal, there are porn actresses (sis/sis, twins, mom/dau) who make money from real incest videos
Most of those are fake. There are however some that do show actresses that are related but I have no idea why no action was taken.

For example, Australia has some of the strictest rules / laws about pornography etc. here are their incest laws



and here is a news article about twins who make clips on Onlyfans



That being said, incest is also against the TOS of almost all sites like onlyfans etc.

E.g.



2. Illegal activity including actual, claimed, or role-played: exploitation, abuse, or harm of individuals under the age of 18; incest; bestiality; necrophilia; or rape or sexual assault.



"post, upload, or share content that depicts, advertises, promotes, encourages, facilitates, or solicits (real, simulated, or implied) (i) sexual activity involving minors; (ii) incest; (iii) bestiality, including anthropomorphic content;"

(I only quoted up to 3 because they have a LONG list.)
 
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morphnet

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PornHub, that got all the attention, had real rape videos, real underage videos, and sometimes videos with both at once.
Plus some of those videos have led to arrested and convictions, like in the case of a teacher on pornhub with a underage family member and the teacher was arrested.

(not posting links for obvious reasons)