The best program for 3D characters?

[lancelotdulak]

Daz characters are made in other programs. And Daz characters don't look human. They are way to dol like.

And come on. Have you seen some of the cutscenes of AAA titles? You really telling me those look worse than Daz ones? Or the de-aging technology in movies? You realise those are 3d models right...

The in game characters, especially in 3D games, isn't limited by the artist skills, but by the performance requirements. If the hardware could handle it, AAA studios can create games with characters and worlds barely distinctive from real life.

None of this is true. Absolutely none of it. If youre making Daz characters that dont look human it's a skill/choice problem.
No.. AAA studios whether movies or games are Garbage. Go look at Any movie... Leia in Rogue One.. despite using cut and paste techniques was bad, the microsoft "AI Demo" human was laughable. You think deaging is good? Its horrific. The artists literally dont seem to know the effects of age they just put their 'feelings' into their work rather than study. They seem to think just smoothing things out and equalising skin color is 'deaging'.. it isnt it's 'making a doll". The core of realistic humans, as daz should have proved to most, is the detail of the model and how well that detail is done. The current 'fad' amongst artists trying to create realism seems to be to make a character look like they have late stage skin cancer as well as a lifetime of horrific scarring.

The reason you probably think 'daz characters are bad' is because all you see are not very good and (or) want to hyperaccentuate certain features. Huge breasts, cartoon eyes etc. When modelling humans currently Hair is the big processing holdup. You can use tricks to make a character look very real but to get hair right you need LOTS of vertex's and you cant cut short the render time

 

[lancelotdulak]

But you won't get super realistic models from Daz, as the models themselves are just to perfect like (which make them to doll like). No imperfections, little scars, red spots, etc, always perfect body sizes, etc.

I agree with part of what you said.. except this: Your problems/ the problems you see in daz are due to the artists. You can make better skin you know. If you think characters need skin imperfections... crack open photoshop. Daz isnt a 2d drawing program...photoshop is. You think the characters are too perfect? Edit the mesh with mesh grabber or export it to a full blow MESH editor likeblender. But before you do all that you can do a LOT more than most people seem to think in daz.. they just dont know or try to learn t hose capabilities because they think its a doll posing program. I recently spent a day working on a characters nose. Then i completely redid her face and eyebrows , from inside daz. Not just applying daz store morphs.. getting into the details. The software is a LOT more powerful than people think, they just dont use that power or know it exists

ps yes the problem is the artists. The thing i love about programming/programmers is that there arent many egotists.. get a group of real programmers together and the guy who isnt humble will have his soul shredded quickly by the others pointing out his imperfections (go check out r/programmer humor etc).. whereas in art.. lets just say the opposite is true

 

[Saki_Sliz]

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:O oh damn!

 

[Synx]

None of this is true. Absolutely none of it. If youre making Daz characters that dont look human it's a skill/choice problem.
No.. AAA studios whether movies or games are Garbage. Go look at Any movie... Leia in Rogue One.. despite using cut and paste techniques was bad, the microsoft "AI Demo" human was laughable. You think deaging is good? Its horrific. The artists literally dont seem to know the effects of age they just put their 'feelings' into their work rather than study. They seem to think just smoothing things out and equalising skin color is 'deaging'.. it isnt it's 'making a doll". The core of realistic humans, as daz should have proved to most, is the detail of the model and how well that detail is done. The current 'fad' amongst artists trying to create realism seems to be to make a character look like they have late stage skin cancer as well as a lifetime of horrific scarring.

The reason you probably think 'daz characters are bad' is because all you see are not very good and (or) want to hyperaccentuate certain features. Huge breasts, cartoon eyes etc. When modelling humans currently Hair is the big processing holdup. You can use tricks to make a character look very real but to get hair right you need LOTS of vertex's and you cant cut short the render time

Do you even know what DAZ is for program...? None of the models in DAZ are made in DAZ. None of the textures used in DAZ are made in DAZ. Daz is a render program, nothing more and nothing less. Its easy to use and with its library its easy and fast to get results quikcly. Its render engine is mediocre at best, as no single AAA studio in the world, no single movie or simple render office in the world, hell even any somewhat professional render uses DAZ. Its great for what it does, letting people with barely any moddeling or texturing knowledge, create renders for their visual novels, but the best tool to create realistic humans? Fuck no....

Saying DAZ is the best program to make realistic humans is like saying the Mona lisa is the best painting technique. They have nothing to do with each other.

Seriously are they paying you to say all this crap?

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

Do you even know what DAZ is for program...? None of the models in DAZ are made in DAZ. None of the textures used in DAZ are made in DAZ. Daz is a render program, nothing more and nothing less. Its easy to use and with its library its easy and fast to get results quikcly. Its render engine is mediocre at best, as no single AAA studio in the world, no single movie or simple render office in the world, hell even any somewhat professional render uses DAZ. Its great for what it does, letting people with barely any moddeling or texturing knowledge, create renders for their visual novels, but the best tool to create realistic humans? Fuck no....

Saying DAZ is the best program to make realistic humans is like saying the Mona lisa is the best painting technique. They have nothing to do with each other.

Seriously are they paying you to say all this crap?

I agree but I would not say it's mediocre at best. While (very) slow, you can achieve a lot with a bit of texturing (done with substance or other). Of course nothing near a Zbrush/Marmoset full textured pro work, but I kinda like the "almost" polished look of iray without any post process. I think that compromise between professional/hobbiyst renderer is a tad bit underrated.

 

[recreation]

this is a neat fight
I think one of the reason so many daz characters look like dolls would be that most creators are hobbiest, so art skill is a limitation. but what is art skill?

have you herad things can be both an art and a science. The way I think of it is, art, you see what works, you mess around and bump into the known, until you find things (like the uncanny valley), then science studies the findings and tries to find more, and then it comes back to art, which is, once you know the rules you can play within them or push them (ie color theory). Thats not including technical skill of acutally making the art, such as the importance of bone length to width ratio that pretty much most daz models don't change unless you are using custom sculpted character from the store.

Nah, that's not a fight, I just try to explain things.
I think so too, that many of the creators are hobbyists, but I also think that many are just going with what sells best, and that is "perfection".
I for one, if anything, would consider myself an artist, I don't sell anything, I don't care about "beauty standards" I don't care about symmetrical lines and stuff, it's more the opposite: if it's unusual, then I (usually) like it.
I have a lot of character morphs, even asymmetrical, and I use them more than not, many of my character creations have asymmetrical features like a skewed nose, offset eyes, sometimes even offest lips, many have an asymmetrical face in general. They have scars, wrinkles, bumps and whatnot. But I also always keep it limited, no one want's to fuck a gollum like elefant... right? xD

 

[lancelotdulak]

Do you even know what DAZ is for program...? None of the models in DAZ are made in DAZ. None of the textures used in DAZ are made in DAZ. Daz is a render program, nothing more and nothing less. Its easy to use and with its library its easy and fast to get results quikcly. Its render engine is mediocre at best, as no single AAA studio in the world, no single movie or simple render office in the world, hell even any somewhat professional render uses DAZ. Its great for what it does, letting people with barely any moddeling or texturing knowledge, create renders for their visual novels, but the best tool to create realistic humans? Fuck no....

Saying DAZ is the best program to make realistic humans is like saying the Mona lisa is the best painting technique. They have nothing to do with each other.

Seriously are they paying you to say all this crap?

What the hell are you talking about? You quite literally dont have a damned clue. Daz isnt a 'render program'. It is a modelling program. IRAY is a rendering program that daz accesses (or others if you have them installed). Daz models are SPECIFICALLY created for daz designed to use its strengths. "It's render engine is mediocre".. again wtf are you talking about. Ive used pretty much every render engine out there... and for people you wont find better. Full stop. Its apparent you dont understand most of its capabilities. Tip one: go into the "shaping" tab. Start learning. tip two: go download "mesh grabber". Tip three. Look under the "create" menu. Tip four: Read up on the difference between daz models and skeletons vs the same for MOST graphics software.
Tip five: google "Daz render engine plugin" and read. Tip six: Learn what the fuck a a render engine is, what 3d editing software is, what scultping software is, what animation software is.
You literally dont know what the living fuck youre talking about. There are photorealistic daz renders of people out there.

 

[lancelotdulak]

Nah, that's not a fight, I just try to explain things.
I think so too, that many of the creators are hobbyists, but I also think that many are just going with what sells best, and that is "perfection".
I for one, if anything, would consider myself an artist, I don't sell anything, I don't care about "beauty standards" I don't care about symmetrical lines and stuff, it's more the opposite: if it's unusual, then I (usually) like it.
I have a lot of character morphs, even asymmetrical, and I use them more than not, many of my character creations have asymmetrical features like a skewed nose, offset eyes, sometimes even offest lips, many have an asymmetrical face in general. They have scars, wrinkles, bumps and whatnot. But I also always keep it limited, no one want's to fuck a gollum like elefant... right? xD

Asymetrical modelling imho puts you Way ahead of most pros. Very few faces are symetrical.. those that are tend to end up being models etc. Ford model agency very long ago developed criteria for finding "beauty".. a lot of it is symmetry. But symmetry isnt particularly normal.

As to most people out here.. of course theyre hobbyists. look at the sheer volume of .01 games and abandoned games. And i dont blame them in gunning for money or even abandoning things where they recieved $70 on patreon or even a few hundred. It takes incredible amounts of time to make a game.. heck it takes hundreds or more hours just learning.
Id disagree on one thing.. the perfection thing. People keep pumping out these generic games with generic "perfect" models and they fall flat.. noone even wants to try them. Its like most porn.. eyerollingly generic (they btw.. literally have a standard script for sex scenes.. position 1 2 3 4 5 etc.. not kidding).

 

[Synx]

Daz isnt a 'render program'. It is a modelling program. IRAY is a rendering program that daz accesses (or others if you have them installed).

Learn what the fuck a a render engine is, what 3d editing software is, what scultping software is, what animation software is.

You literally dont know what the living fuck youre talking about.

Iray isn't a render a program.... It's a render engine.

Daz is a render program. You cannot create models in Daz. If you want to prove me wrong tell me how you would do this super simple task any modeling program should have 0 problems with: Pick any human character you like and add a third arm to it.

I can do that in Blender (an actual modeling program) in a couple minutes.

Iray isn't the best render engine out there. The best render engines are the professional ones you actually have to pay for like Vray (that's with a V not an I or you will just say I misspelled Iray) or Octane.

I'm just going to ask again how much are they paying you to spew all this bullshit?

 

[Saki_Sliz]

guys, I think it is just, we have different expectations on what we think about when we say something like "model" or "program"

I can use the word program is at least 3 different contexts, to mean different things.

you guys are basically saying the same thing (just tripping on the vuageness of words and terms), and have the same opinions, you're just like my mom and sister. They were fighting about something in the car, they were each using a different word, and I started laughing because they were so serious about their fight, not realizing that the words had the same definitions.

 

[Kinderalpha]

Download HoneySelect, Charastudio, Daz, and whatever other contender you have. Build a character, fit it with clothing, pose it, render it.

We don't know how technologically inclined you are, or your existing skillsets. We don't know your computer specifications, and what you feel or think looks 'good' or 'good enough'. So try all of the above, and feel it out yourself.

You're gonna very quickly come to the realization of which one you want based on how long it takes for you to do such a simple task. Daz by nature will take the longer but that's because of the quality and creative freedom allowed. Charastudio does most of the work for you, but limits you more in terms of style and art.

Then look at assets available, workflow, how you can import/export models and that workflow. I mean there are so many variables. Your best bet is to try them and go from there.

EDIT:

Straight from the wiki. Idk why anybody would call Daz3D a modeling program. Build me a 3D model of a building and let me know how far you get. There's a reason why Daz has such an extensive framework for importing and exporting models. Because it's usage is for scene building, not model creation. Blender creates model, but Daz has the benefit of focusing on posing, manipulation, morphing, etc to offer quicker scene building. Two different tools with two different objectives.

 

[lancelotdulak]

Download HoneySelect, Charastudio, Daz, and whatever other contender you have. Build a character, fit it with clothing, pose it, render it.

We don't know how technologically inclined you are, or your existing skillsets. We don't know your computer specifications, and what you feel or think looks 'good' or 'good enough'. So try all of the above, and feel it out yourself.

You're gonna very quickly come to the realization of which one you want based on how long it takes for you to do such a simple task. Daz by nature will take the longer but that's because of the quality and creative freedom allowed. Charastudio does most of the work for you, but limits you more in terms of style and art.

Then look at assets available, workflow, how you can import/export models and that workflow. I mean there are so many variables. Your best bet is to try them and go from there.

EDIT: View attachment 526765

Straight from the wiki. Idk why anybody would call Daz3D a modeling program. Build me a 3D model of a building and let me know how far you get. There's a reason why Daz has such an extensive framework for importing and exporting models. Because it's usage is for scene building, not model creation. Blender creates model, but Daz has the benefit of focusing on posing, manipulation, morphing, etc to offer quicker scene building. Two different tools with two different objectives.

I take back Everything i typed. Listen to this guy!

But yes i can build you a 3d model of a building. Menu/create....

 

[recreation]

Build me a 3D model of a building and let me know how far you get

Easy xD

Not the best view but I don't have the time to do a better view atm.
Also, have a look at the link in my signature, I've created some stuff with daz only

 

[Kinderalpha]

Easy xD

Not the best view but I don't have the time to do a better view atm.
Also, have a look at the link in my signature, I've created some stuff with daz only

I mean, yes you can use a package to build models. The point is workflow in Blender is native to 3D modeling, while Daz3D is scene building. I could make games using blender, but I'm not gonna call blender a game engine because it has a fork or package to accomplish a goal outside of it's intended use. I'm gonna call it blender, a 3D modeling program that you can use as a game engine. Just like Daz3D is a scene building program you could use to model.

To be fair, I wasn't aware of the 3D modeling package until now. Thats pretty neat.

 

[recreation]

I mean, yes you can use a package to build models. The point is workflow in Blender is native to 3D modeling, while Daz3D is scene building. I could make games using blender, but I'm not gonna call blender a game engine because it has a fork or package to accomplish a goal outside of it's intended use. I'm gonna call it blender, a 3D modeling program that you can use as a game engine. Just like Daz3D is a scene building program you could use to model.

To be fair, I wasn't aware of the 3D modeling package until now. Thats pretty neat.

Well, "package" is the wrong word, it's just that you can create primitives in Daz, cubes, spheres, planes, cones, cylinders, thorus, like in almost any other 3D program, and of course you can manipulate them, that's what I did.
Of course it doesn't make Daz a modeling program, but people seem to underestimate what Daz is capable of.

 

[lancelotdulak]

I mean, yes you can use a package to build models. The point is workflow in Blender is native to 3D modeling, while Daz3D is scene building. I could make games using blender, but I'm not gonna call blender a game engine because it has a fork or package to accomplish a goal outside of it's intended use. I'm gonna call it blender, a 3D modeling program that you can use as a game engine. Just like Daz3D is a scene building program you could use to model.

To be fair, I wasn't aware of the 3D modeling package until now. Thats pretty neat.

The point of my whole post was to .. remove the ignorane of some people being pretty repulsive. And of course stepped on the mods delicate sensibilities by correcting misinformation.. again.
Nothing wrong with not being aware of its capabilities. My eyes are continually opened to the capabilities blender apparently has. But words have meanings. Ive made software for a living. And daz is a hell of a lot more than "stick 3d models in scene and it renders it". Daz doesnt render it, a render engine does. Daz isnt just a box to stick models in . You can do damn near anything in it.. like you said.. some things (like modelling) .. it's really not good at. But it will do them. And of course it has a sister program to do that better (that noone uses). Daz is a Deep program.. perhaps not as deep as maya, c4d or blender.. but damn close and very very good at its specialty.. humans. No other software out there comes close to competing with daz in that area.

 

[Kinderalpha]

Think ultimately this is diving in the direction of language and definitions rather than facts now lol. I underestimated the modeling aspect of Daz, and my stance on it is more subjective than objective so I'm not gonna pretend that it's an objective stance.

My goal was to differentiate a program that at it's core focuses on modeling, and a program that focuses on utilizing an array of models to build scenes. I think that's been made clear. I never intended to isolated the programs into strict definitions that exclude other features of the program but that may have accidentally been what was interpreted.

Im glad I learned about the modeling portion of Daz from this, and im definitely interested in trying it out in the future.

 

[lancelotdulak]

That's a very good point kinder

 

[polywog]