The Crisis in the Adult Gaming Industry

Nunu312

Smut Peddler
Game Developer
Jul 25, 2018
653
1,700
That's a really good point, actually. The other day, someone who I felt was being a sycophant for a game with no proofreading told me 'You're the reason [niche] games like this are so rare', and I'm not certain they were wrong. As a developer, how damaging is it when one disgruntled person plays your game and, in their frustration, vents about their experience in a review/your thread? And are they wrong to, in the event that it's something that is unlikely to change about a game? To what extent should we, as users, apply 'don't like don't read' to a game and just move on, regardless of how a game makes us feel? If we have nothing nice to say about a work of art, should we say anything?

On the one hand, stigmatizing criticism leads to environments that feel very insular and cultish, and hostile to users who do not toe the party line. My go-to example here is the way the c-novel community forms cults of personality around low quality translations of chinese works, much like the weebs of yore, in an unabashed celebration of... the idea of orientalized China? On the other, exalting the 'critic intelligencia' as some kind of heroic force that lampoons over-inflated author egos is a position that provably stifles creativity, leading to a proliferation of safe, inoffensive projects, and for genuine cult classics to only be recognized in retrospect, following rounds of vicious, and often equally unimaginative, mockery for not toeing the party line.

Genuinely curious, as someone with a tendency to find catharsis over an experience in a round of bellyaching, but trying to be conscious of its wider effects. Sorry if this seems like a tangent, but I do think the interplay of audience/developer is pretty central to this topic.
Really when offering a critique, the ability to look past personal preference at something and discuss it based on it's merits is a key trait. In general I have found it in abundance in the adult community as, with some notable and loud exceptions, people accept that the fetishes of no two people line up exactly.

As a developer when someone comes and says that the breasts in my game are a little too large for their immersion, I take that on board but it is not useful feedback. I cannot change their breast sizes as they are both important aspects of their characters and an important fetish for the game. It would be nice if I could cater to everyone but that isn't possible and I shouldn't try. All it really changes is that my thread gets a bump and some more activity, for which I thank the itty bitty titty comity. I appreciate your contribution to my marketing.

When someone tells me that the early versions of my game are a confusing labyrinth that is unpleasant to play... That's something else entirely. I am not making a labyrinth, I am making a game...

While both of these things are definitely the players experience, one of them is useful to both me as a developer and to people who want to know what my game is like to play. They already know the girls have larger than average breasts, they aren't blind. A review or feedback becomes more powerful when it is describing things that transcend personal preference and describe things beyond what is written in a tiny blurb, a few screenshots and a list of fetishes.

Some people leave their feedback with... well lets say unkind words. Really outside of truly exceptional circumstances this is unwarranted, it's not useful. Also, you know, being a developer is a bit of an emotional roller coaster at times, getting dumped on for not meeting the personal preference of someone outside your audience isn't the best feeling... it's probably killed a game or two. Similarly some developers take even honest advise as an attack against them, which really says all that needs to be said about them.

But as a developer, to make the best games we need to know what what we are doing right. The kind words are an inspiration and fuel to drive harder. We also need to know what we've done wrong. My game would be an unplayable mess without people spending their time to tell me what is wrong with a project I am so deep inside that I cannot see it's faults.

As a player I have already searched by tag, I don't care if the boobs are too big for you. I want to know if the game is a grind mess that does a bait and switch with it's primary focus. Or if somehow despite that it's still worth playing.
 

Yngling

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2020
1,512
3,233
Syr96 I think you are approaching this too negatively.

There are plenty of VN's which are not laden with overused tropes and actually do have a good, or at least entertaining, story.

My question is though: "why are those devs not suitably rewarded?"

Maybe ancienregimele is right that the majority of patrons are young men who just want porn and don't set higher standards but that seems like a simplistic explanation.

Ophanim is reasoning that a vocal activist minority is intentionally damaging games. That definitely happens, especially with people crying NTR way too soon, but I wonder how damaging it really is.

But one way or another, there are plenty of devs which I really like who are making around minimum wage level, where other devs who are doing tropish grindfests are raking in the cash... :unsure:
 

Nutluck

Engaged Member
Game Developer
Nov 2, 2017
3,564
2,232
The subscription model is the only reason the west has an indie adult game scene at all in my opinion, without it, projects just wouldn't start, and there'd be nothing but nutaku games.
I disagree with that, as there is free games out there that won't even take money for them.
 

Atemsiel

Developer of Stormside
Game Developer
Jan 4, 2022
717
1,938
I disagree with that, as there is free games out there that won't even take money for them.
I didn't mean it completely literally as in to say that there would literally be nothing but nutaku games. I mean that there really wouldn't be much else. If you were to take away all games which use the subscription model, I don't think there would be much left, and I think things would come out at a much slower rate.

I think the majority of devs would describe this as a hobby, but I doubt there's many of them who outright don't want to earn money from it. Direct sales exists of course, but I think the earning potential is lower than it is with the subscription system. Unless they happen to get big on steam of course, but steam isn't even an option for many devs due to their content rules, and itch doesn't really have the same level of popularity.
 

Nutluck

Engaged Member
Game Developer
Nov 2, 2017
3,564
2,232
I didn't mean it completely literally as in to say that there would literally be nothing but nutaku games. I mean that there really wouldn't be much else. If you were to take away all games which use the subscription model, I don't think there would be much left, and I think things would come out at a much slower rate.

I think the majority of devs would describe this as a hobby, but I doubt there's many of them who outright don't want to earn money from it. Direct sales exists of course, but I think the earning potential is lower than it is with the subscription system. Unless they happen to get big on steam of course, but steam isn't even an option for many devs due to their content rules, and itch doesn't really have the same level of popularity.
I agree there would be a lot less, but some of us just do this for fun. The game I work on GL is free and we refuse to even accept tips or donations and we stay on roughly a 3 month update cycle. I know we are very much in the minority, but I am sure some would still make games just for fun. I know that is why I write, it is a creative outlet and I just enjoy doing it. Not to mention it makes me smile when someone plays our game and especially something I wrote and comes on our forum or discord saying how much they enjoyed it.
 
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whizwart

Member
Apr 11, 2022
416
748
Right now we have an "Italian cinema" phase in VNs. One real good one comes out, then 50 people try to copy it.
 

CardinalRed

Amazing Dev
Game Developer
Sep 8, 2021
276
792
There should be some way to stop contributions where the goods aren't produced, without relying on the goodwill or honesty of the Dev to stop subscriptions when a hiatus occurs.
There is, it's called "cancel pledge". But some people understand that patreon is not about delivering a product, but supporting artists to be able to develop.
 

russianbot

Newbie
Oct 28, 2022
83
197
But some people understand that patreon is not about delivering a product, but supporting artists to be able to develop.
These would both be misunderstandings because patreon is about receiving a subscription service. Obviously game development is a poor match for monthly subscription, but that's on the developer.
 
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ancienregimele

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2017
1,925
6,323
There is, it's called "cancel pledge". But some people understand that patreon is not about delivering a product, but supporting artists to be able to develop.
I follow that rule & when Devs stop producing for no apparent or stated reason, I stop the subs. If they start up again, I sometimes come back. It's great to support creative artists but I maintain that this isn't done because people are feeling especially generous. There is a clear wish for a finished or part-completed product & money is limited. If 'demand' is not being met on a mutually acceptable basis, it's time to move on.

At one time I used to leave in any case, so that more work from a greater variety of artists could be sampled, without excessive financial commitment. I would always write to the Devs & explain my reasons & thus leave the door open for a return. Currently I'm only supporting 2 artists, because times are tight.

My point related to those situations where subscriptions are left in place when there is very little happening. We've all seen games with an abandoned tag still receiving support long after the Dev had packed up & gone. Hence the phrase, "well it's their money..."
 

Ophanim

Member
May 2, 2018
197
415
Syr96 I think you are approaching this too negatively.

There are plenty of VN's which are not laden with overused tropes and actually do have a good, or at least entertaining, story.

My question is though: "why are those devs not suitably rewarded?"

Maybe ancienregimele is right that the majority of patrons are young men who just want porn and don't set higher standards but that seems like a simplistic explanation.

Ophanim is reasoning that a vocal activist minority is intentionally damaging games. That definitely happens, especially with people crying NTR way too soon, but I wonder how damaging it really is.

But one way or another, there are plenty of devs which I really like who are making around minimum wage level, where other devs who are doing tropish grindfests are raking in the cash... :unsure:
It's more that I'm wondering, as someone who often is vocal, to what extent my emotional detoxing after a frustrating gaming experience is actively harming the game I just played. For me, there's a difference between 'not my fetish' and 'I think this game needs a proofreader', for example. One warrants a shrug and an appraisal on the game's other merits, and the other I feel needs pointing out to some degree. Or at least... after playing a game with terrible spelling, punctuation and grammar, not to mention other writing troubles, I will feel a strong urge to talk about that to someone, preferably someone who is in a position to change those things.

At the same time, I don't want to actively poison the well in doing so. I would like to be a conscientious complainer, where possible. Hope that clears up what I meant there.

Regarding the wider porn scene, which I wasn't explicitly commenting on at all, actually... I don't think there's some kind of gamer troglodyte illuminati who just really love tropey games and are sabotaging others through complaints about NTR and stuff. I think it's a combination of savvy devs using tropes in a calculated way for wide market appeal (thus to irritate the least number of people, like what Disney does), and lowered standards for media literacy. Education (particularly in humanities and the arts) has been suffering from a lack of social spending in heavily neoliberal countries for nearly four decades now, but it's hard to untangle the ongoing effects of that from 'sometimes bad art is just popular lol', which is also very much a thing.
 

Yngling

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2020
1,512
3,233
It's more that I'm wondering, as someone who often is vocal, to what extent my emotional detoxing after a frustrating gaming experience is actively harming the game I just played. For me, there's a difference between 'not my fetish' and 'I think this game needs a proofreader', for example. One warrants a shrug and an appraisal on the game's other merits, and the other I feel needs pointing out to some degree. Or at least... after playing a game with terrible spelling, punctuation and grammar, not to mention other writing troubles, I will feel a strong urge to talk about that to someone, preferably someone who is in a position to change those things.
That's fair enough, and of course you can be critical about things that could be improved, or speculate about which direction the game could go. That's all fine in my opinion.

Regarding the wider porn scene, which I wasn't explicitly commenting on at all, actually... I don't think there's some kind of gamer troglodyte illuminati who just really love tropey games and are sabotaging others through complaints about NTR and stuff.

I think it's a combination of savvy devs using tropes in a calculated way for wide market appeal (thus to irritate the least number of people, like what Disney does), and lowered standards for media literacy. Education (particularly in humanities and the arts) has been suffering from a lack of social spending in heavily neoliberal countries for nearly four decades now, but it's hard to untangle the ongoing effects of that from 'sometimes bad art is just popular lol', which is also very much a thing.
Perhaps you are right. For some reason also Hollywood seems to be focussed on creating remakes from '80's TV-series or creating movies from '80's comics, instead of creating CREATIVE stories that make you think.

*shrug*

At least it seems that at least the market is big enough so that you might find something that is actually good and original.
 

MrZed

Member
Game Developer
Mar 16, 2020
184
377
I think a lot of what has been said initially in this post is just wrong.

It's easy to blame developers for sticking to "what it works" but this is not an issue that is that easy as just "developers bad, lazy and lack imagination".
Most of the stuff mentioned here are VNs's and the usual VN's tropes, but there are a lot of different games, games that because they aren't VN's people don't give attention, and end up dying for lack of support.

Think of it this way: You can do what you know it works, and maybe earn some income to keep learning and improving, so picking up ren'py or rpgmaker and adding some CGI, that's the easiest entry formula into the games industry.
Or you can try to do something different, pick other software which may have a steeper learning curve, and gamble the chance of either some people picking your stuff up, or completely ignoring it because it's not what they know. (As in "this doesn't look like a typical porn game")

Which of the options sound better?

And then, as soon as a developer starts putting content out a lot of people will flood in with requests/ideas/stuff, and man, I took a lot of shit when I made my first game and people would just come at me telling me to "just use DAZ is the standard for the porn games" or "Your game is too complex, I just wanna wank", and stuff like that.
So these kind of things may impact or disuade some devs into doing different stuff, specially when someone is just starting and gets constantly bombarded with stuff like this.

Regarding patreon, I believe the problem is not patreon, or the model itself.
Patreon is just a platform that users can give money to content creators they support. And as with any investment (because you are essentially giving someone money in exchange for a service) the user should be accountable of what he does with his money. If a developer won't put new content out I won't support him, simple as that. This is the only tool that users have to keep developers in check, and as such if the users keep giving money to someone they believe is lazy they aren't encouraging the developer to work.

So I believe this problem is not only from the developers side, but from the users side as well. It's not only one side bad and stagnates development, but actually both sides contribute to it. (And of course not everyone does, there are lots of good developers who work hard and loots of good players who don't insult and demand changes to developers just because they think they know better)

Also in my case, patreon allowed me to make the game and to turn game development into my fulltime job, and I think it is very important to consider when looking at a developer if their game is a hobby project, or a job project. This way it is easier to manage expectations, I can put 220 hours per month on a game, but someone who does this for a hobby won't be able to do that. And related to this is also the country of residence. When I started I only needed to get to $300s to survive and not be at a loss (if I were full-time, perks of living in a poor country), however someone living in the US won't do anything with $300/month.

All in all I believe the industry is slowly growing, and as more complex games and interesting games are being made, the "easymoney" types of dev are getting out. On the other hand keep in mind that, according to steam statistics, over 80% of game studios don't survive their first game, so there will always be a lot of new devs doing one game and then quitting.

And I believe that's where you will see most of the repetition
 

Jaike

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
1,441
5,054
For some reason also Hollywood seems to be focussed on creating remakes from '80's TV-series or creating movies from '80's comics, instead of creating CREATIVE stories that make you think.
The big reason for that is that almost every celeb in Hollywood, and also many in western film making, is an absolute moron. It's also why the accuracy of a historical film taking place before 1750 is usually crap.

Then there's commercial interest, wanting to play it safe and just hoping for big returns.
 
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reilynn

Member
Jan 16, 2018
214
239
I agree with a lot of this.
I also find there's more and more low quality efforts. And so many of them are ending up here. I feel like at some point some metric for quality may be needed. I know that is highly subjective, but as more and more games are achieving very high quality, we are see 3 or even 4 times more that are barely frapable let alone even playable.

In fact, I'm raising my standards on what I download and keep. By a lot. I'm going through my demo/alpha folders today to clear our 75% of it. There's just too many to ever think about playing low-quality efforts.
 
Dec 31, 2022
5
7
Since I'm dealing with the negative sides of the industry here, the positive ones are largely left out. I am very grateful to many devs for their hard work and passion. After all, they are the ones who often make their works available free of charge. English isnt my native language. If you find mistakes, you can keep them.

Is the adult gaming industry in crisis?
More games are being produced than ever before. There are new games every week, others are updated. In addition, the number of players and paetrons, i.e. those who support the developers financially, is growing. So why do I speak of a crisis? Perhaps crisis is the wrong word. But I can't help but feel that the industry is at a dead end, or about to maneuver itself into one. Because it has come to a standstill. One game follows the next. The characters, assets and story are often interchangeable. Sometimes it even happens to me that I download a game, start it and after a short time I'm not sure whether I've played the game before. Was it so generic that I'm confusing it with another? Or so boring that I can't remember playing it.
The industry is still new. Normally, a new, growing industry also generates new ideas. The market should change rapidly, and new concepts should bring a breath of fresh air. Instead, there has already been a standstill. Basically it runs on 4 different sandbox games, visual novels, RPGM and trainer. There are so many overlaps that they hardly differ from each other. Some sandbox games do not offer any differences to a VN apart from a navigation system.
Of course, there are good games for everyone in the areas mentioned. However, I noticed that there is less and less variety in the games. Even the many new games that are flooding the market don't change this. While many of these are good-looking, solidly coded, and well-written (at least by industry standards), all of these games follow the same path as their predecessors. This creates a feeling of wear and tear. You start a new game and after just a few minutes you're thinking "I already know that." I know the characters, I know the assets. I've seen a similar story before.
What is missing is something new. Some innovation. The courage to try new things. And unfortunately not only in one, but in almost all areas. At this point I would like to go into the problems of the individual areas.

Setting
Especially with the setting, you should actually be able to assume that you will encounter a wide range of different games. Not only our real world offers numerous role models. In the course of human history, an almost inexhaustible supply of stories, myths, sagas, legends, etc. has formed and could be used.
Instead, one encounters the same setting over and over again. A look at the most watched games page clearly shows that most play either in college or in the "landlady's" family. In between there are a few games with a classic fantasy harem setting as well as one or the other parody of well-known series/books and we already have 90% of the games covered.
First of all, that doesn't have to be a bad thing. But often it is. Because if nothing new is added, something that makes the game unique and sets it apart from the others, then it's just a pretty lifeless copy. Personally, I miss games in which other settings or genres play a major role. For example, I would be very happy about a real horror game. Think of a game like Until Dawn as an adult game. I also find the “working place” setting far too underrepresented so far. I'd love to work my way up from scrub to chief resident, cruising the streets of a metropolis as a patrolman and choosing for myself whether I'm a law-abiding cop or a corrupt cop. There are so many opportunities that just aren't being used.

Story
The story is closely connected to the setting. And here we have one of the biggest weaknesses in the industry. Because most games don't have a real story. In many cases events are linked together by the Dev. The way from one bed to the next is sold as a story. In fact, I find the condition so bad that I skip much of the text on most games (although reading is one of my hobbies). Why should I read for 10 minutes the MC talking to the LI about breakfast and absolutely nothing interesting happening? That might work if I cared about the characters (a problem I'll get to in a moment). The scenes are often written in such a way that neither the story is advanced nor that the characters are better developed. And no, knowing what everyone's favorite jam is has nothing to do with character development or immersion. Unless you bring up the subject again later and an evil clone of the LI tries to convince you that she is the real one and by asking her her favorite jam you find out the truth. Right now, however, most stories are just a collection of scenes that lead to one place. To the MC's bed.

The characters
We all know it. We start a game and we encounter a character who seems to be a walking stereotype. You got the big bitch stepsister, the innocent little stepsister. The nerdy computer girl who likes cosplay. Tsundere, Yandere, the jock, the bitch. The horny milf who can't control herself. Classic concepts are used. This can work if you expand it further. Giving the characters a real story, a motivation of their own, or anything that makes them human. In fact, this aspect should be central to most visual novels. Especially when we don't have a big story, the characters have to be convincing. But that often doesn't happen. They remain walking clichés that jump into the MC's lap.
While the women are walking and often badass stereotypes, the MC is often a nearly unbearable person. Either the character is just an unpleasant, embarrassing and sex-obsessed creep (it would be interesting if this behavior had corresponding consequences), a coward, a perfect model boy, etc. Often the characters are involuntarily absurd or unsympathetic. The emphasis is on involuntary. Because if the devs thought of something, such characters would have potential. It can be fun to play a creep, a wimp, or an asshole. But only if it is wanted and leads somewhere. Instead, we often have the situation that a very unpleasant MC is swarmed by the women as if he were Mr. Perfect. Regardless of how he behaves or what kind of person he is. That's just bad writing. Why women are interested in him is often very questionable. Although, after all, the women in many games are so characterless that it doesn't make a big difference. In addition, the women are all inexperienced anyway (except for NTR games), had a maximum of one boyfriend who didn't make it anyway. Or the ex is a huge stupid asshole, which is why you break up with him with the help of the MC. Of course they never had sex. And that the MC is just as big an asshole is also ignored. After all, everyone loves. Because??? I do not know. big dick That's it. If I want to see characters like that, then I can do that on Pornhub, because there's no more character development there either. The difference. The films there are a maximum of an hour long. Here I am tormented game after game, hour after hour.

Annoying tropes
Dev A: I need an idea for the next update. What is innovative and could and players like. Dev B: Why don't you do a yoga scene? There's never been anything like it!
I could now open my own yoga studio and work as a yogi, I know all the figures by now. I think everyone here can off the top of 20 different scenes that you see in pretty much every game. There are even separate posts here in the forum where tropes are collected that you can no longer see. I would like to emphasize that I have nothing against such scenes in principle. If they're done well, I never tire of watching those scenes either. But far too often it strikes me that the dev just copies what seems to work without questioning how it works best. Often these scenes just seem like filler and serve no purpose.
The use of the same tropes over and over again does not only apply to the choice of scene. We encounter the tropes in almost every area of the game. I won't go into it any further at this point, since you can read enough about it in the forum.

The decision system
Most of the games here are based on the player making decisions for the MC. This is where the appeal of the games lies, as it gives you the feeling of influencing the story yourself. If you take the choices out, they're just stories. So with this core mechanic, the dev has to make sure to do almost everything right. And unfortunately there is also a big problem here, as many have not understood what makes a good decision-making system.
We all know it. The MC faces a seemingly difficult decision and we have to make a decision. We weigh, make a decision and save a little later and see what would have happened if we had made a different decision. Often the answer is: nothing. 3 or 4 different images or sentences and we're back on the path the dev planned. There's another sentence and then it goes back to what the dev wants. Basically, if the dev wants to tell a linear story, it's fine. But then you should save yourself these fake decisions. However, I find it almost even worse when decisions are not at all comprehensible or downright grotesquely simple.

Example:
LI: “Hey MC, which dress do you prefer. The red, blue or green?
MC: I prefer blue.
LI: "OMG you stupid idiot. I told you in a completely unneccecary scene that my cat had been killed by a blue car."
Result: No scene with her. Path blocked.

Other example:
LI: "Hey MC, do you think I am ugly."
MC Option A: Yes, you are so fucking ugly it hurt my eyes. Option B: No, you are beautiful.


Often devs tend to either ask absolutely ridiculous decision questions where the normal gamer has absolutely no idea what the outcome will be, or make it so obvious that even the dumbest person in the world would be able to understand it. Both are just bad and no fun. This means that you need a walkthrough for many games in order to get to the desired scenes. Each point awarded or not awarded should be comprehensible to the player. At least if you take the trouble to read the lyrics and put yourself in the shoes of the characters (which, however, requires a reasonably interesting story and solid characters).

Paetron - a problem for the industry
Most games are funded through Paetron. The dev receives monthly money from his backers to develop the game. In return, they receive certain benefits (earlier access, voting rights, etc.). Actually a good system. Because with the monthly income, a dev can develop his games with a certain planning security. But the system also has huge problems. Both for the developers and for the supporters.
After all, as a supporter you can't check whether the game is really being worked on. And so it happens that some DEVs wait for months or years, don't deliver anything and if an update does come, then it's a joke. I think we all know enough examples. Despite this, the numbers of paetrons are not decreasing, or only very slowly. Some simply forget that they support the dev, others behave like fan boys and believe the excuses that are constantly being made. A normal company would be broke in a short time with such methods. But thanks to the subscription system and no legal obligations, the power lies with the developer. There are also psychological effects. Someone who is deceived would rather remain in the deceit than admit they were wrong. There is no other way I can explain the high number of supporters for clear scammers.
Sure, everyone can decide for themselves how they want to use their money. But in the end everyone has to be aware that doing so is damaging the entire industry. On the one hand, it shows that you can get away with it as a dev (once you've achieved some level of success). On the other hand, it also harms other devs because financial capacities are tied up in projects that are stuck in a dead end. As a result, other developers lack financial support. This is especially problematic for newcomers. But the developers who do good work regularly and consistently also suffer. They often do too good and constant work. That sounds paradoxical. But the good devs also bring their updates without additional support because they are passionate about their project. This can tempt one or the other supporter to prefer to finance other projects. Projects where you get the feeling (often contrary to reality) that more and better updates will come about through support.
There are some devs who at least bring regular updates, but still cannot make a living from the development, even though the games consistently receive good ratings. Shouldn't it be in all our senses to support motivated and reliable devs? Because this is how the industry grows and we give the devs the opportunity to be creative and maybe even implement new, daring ideas. That would be really good for the industry.
The main problem with adult games is that most of them are supported through Patreon and that site has very restrictive rules regarding content. That's the main reason most games are pretty vanilla and why you have to download incest patches separately. For me, it's pretty stupid to restrict stuff in fiction. I mean, it's a porn game. Do they really think that someone is gonna play it and start f*cking his mother? There should be another platform that allows the devs to be supported financially, but doesn't restrict the content they put out.