The lack of quality MCs

[fh321]

I don't want to get into examples of specific games or to 'name & shame' VNs that have terrible MCs, because I don't want to turn this into a bashing session, but allow me to make a general plea to developers: stop making generic, unlikeable, garbage MCs.

And yes, that includes the wish fulfillment crap where women drop their panties for cardboard MCs who have all the personality and depth as a piece of cardboard. I write fiction, I understand the idea that your protagonist should act as an 'empty vessel' for the reader to insert themselves into. But here's the thing: no one wants to be a pathetic, useless man who needs massive amounts of plot armor and author fiat for anyone to believably be romantically interested in him. Note that I am *not* complaining about the games that are little more than 3D/animated fap sessions. I'm talking about games that ostensibly claim to have a story.

I understand many devs are not writers, but are rather animators/artists. So here's a helpful guide to creating a basic character: Your character should have feelings. They should have motivations, interests, desires, goals, and - *most importantly* - they should have FLAWS. They should make mistakes. They should fail (sometimes). They should have weaknesses that lead to seemingly obvious missteps. They should learn and improve.

In other words, MCs should at least somewhat resemble human beings.

What's absolutely crazy to me is how many games out there follow all of the above suggestions to creating a character... but ONLY for love interests/women, while the MC is still a useless, entitled, Gary Stu piece of shit. Like, you obviously can write characters well, why do you still make the character I'm supposed to play 'as' such an unlikeable piece of shit??

I've come to love NTR games simply for the joy of seeing the realistic outcome of a useless character 'losing' the girl.

 

[MrOverhead]

true,dude.Especially the last sentence.

 

[desmosome]

They don't treat the MC as a character most of the time. I agree with all you've said, but there is just something about the supposed "game" element of porn games that leads to devs treating the MC kind of like a cursor or a mechanical representation of the player's will. They just kind of experience the world around them for the player, and their personality can change on a dime based on whatever choice the player made just then.

I'm exempting the hyper competent gigachad MCs, because those are basically deliberately written like that, just like how NTR Mcs are deliberately written to be useless cucks.

But of the games that attempt to do something more grounded and story driven, yeah, the MCs are often the weakest link. They could learn a thing or two from Pale Carnations. That MC is interesting as hell and very fleshed out, while still giving players agency.

 

[Deximay]

The ratio of good writing to the amount of games we have on here have a huge gap.
You'd be lucky to find yourself thrilled to read a game here.

 

[Logan1377]

Is good writing preferable and welcome? Yes, absolutely. But for me, in a sex game, its not really vital. I want the MC to look like a tall, fit adult, who behaves like a good person should, and is horny and welcoming of any and all action that comes his way. Give me that, and I'm usually good to go.

Realism is for real life, IMO. Good erotica should instead thread the needle between what's plausible and what's unlikely to happen to most people. I'm not interested in what would really happen to most people, because that's not sexy or fun for me. I want a character and circumstance that lets me live out some variety of fantasies.

 

[morphnet]

allow me to make a general plea to developers: stop making generic, unlikeable, garbage MCs.

Why should they place your tastes above others?

I'm talking about games that ostensibly claim to have a story.

If every story was Shakespeare the world would be a boring place.

So here's a helpful guide to creating a basic character: Your character should have feelings. They should have motivations, interests, desires, goals, and - *most importantly* - they should have FLAWS. They should make mistakes. They should fail (sometimes). They should have weaknesses that lead to seemingly obvious missteps. They should learn and improve.

In other words, MCs should at least somewhat resemble human beings.

This is just your taste, why should a fantasy character not be a fantasy character?

What's absolutely crazy to me is how many games out there follow all of the above suggestions to creating a character... but ONLY for love interests/women, while the MC is still a useless, entitled, Gary Stu piece of shit. Like, you obviously can write characters well, why do you still make the character I'm supposed to play 'as' such an unlikeable piece of shit??

Because the MC in many games is supposed to be an avatar that reaches as many different types of players as possible.
What you are doing is asking dev's to narrow their audience to you and the few players that think like you, that is not just unrealistic but also a little selfish don't you think?

 

[fh321]

Your reply

I explicitly differentiated between 'wank-fests' and actual visual *novels*; novel implying there is an actual coherent story attached to the 'porn'. So I don't particularly understand why you come at me as though I'm asking for devs to move heaven and earth just for me. A quick google search could show you that there are clearly defined elements of what good storytelling is. Are you suggesting that I'm being unreasonable for expecting authors - for that is what someone who creates a visual novel is - to create interesting and engaging protagonists?

Rather, I think it's you who should raise your expectations, rather than I should lower mine.

If you're the type of person who needs to be able to 'see himself' as the main character, that's fine. I personally don't need to believe I am Luke Skywalker in order to enjoy the Star Wars movies, but more power to you. Even if that's the case, though, where you need the MC to be the avatar of your own identity, why wouldn't you want to be a three-dimensional person? Why would you want to be someone who gets whatever he wants with zero effort, who never faces a challenge, who never has to work to win affection?

I'm not asking for Tolstoy (who was far better than Shakespeare, IMO ) I'm simply asking for a touch, a smidge of humanity. You're more than a walking dildo, my friend, and so am I. Is it too much to ask that AVN devs give us protagonists that match that bare minimum?

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

~snip~

I think both of you are correct in a way and it can be summed up as "different strokes for different folks" (Pun absolutely intended.) Some want an MC as blank as possible, others the opposite, and some people want an in-between.

 

[fh321]

Is good writing preferable and welcome? Yes, absolutely. But for me, in a sex game, its not really vital. I want the MC to look like a tall, fit adult, who behaves like a good person should, and is horny and welcoming of any and all action that comes his way. Give me that, and I'm usually good to go.

Realism is for real life, IMO. Good erotica should instead thread the needle between what's plausible and what's unlikely to happen to most people. I'm not interested in what would really happen to most people, because that's not sexy or fun for me. I want a character and circumstance that lets me live out some variety of fantasies.

I agree with everything you say. But, as I said in my above reply, all I'm asking for is protagonists that 'earn' the affection of the LIs. If I write a story about a smug douchebag who women all bend over for despite him being a douchebag, that's a NTR novel. Remember, you're not supposed to LIKE the guy who doesn't deserve to steal the woman in NTR. So I don't feel it is unreasonable to ask for protagonists that aren't despicable people. As you (correctly) said, "a tall, fit adult who behaves like a GOOD PERSON should". Good people are well-rounded, have actual personality.

I don't need a deep dive into the protagonist's background. I don't need some existential crisis they have to overcome. All I'm asking for is that they *slightly* resemble a human being.

 

[fh321]

I think both of you are correct in a way and it can be summed up as "different strokes for different folks" (Pun absolutely intended.) Some want an MC as blank as possible, others the opposite, and some people want an in-between.

Fair enough. Hard to argue with that!

 

[Logan1377]

I agree with everything you say. But, as I said in my above reply, all I'm asking for is protagonists that 'earn' the affection of the LIs.

Oh, I completely agree with you there! There are few things that are as satisfying, and often sexy, as a game that allows my character to earn or unlock new levels of affection and/or lewdness with the sex partners though my actions. Even if its a game with only one real path, if I'm able to control the direction and pacing and get to where I want step by step, its so much better. Its one of the biggest reasons that I enjoy sandbox or semi-sandbox games more than pure, one directional novels most of the time. If its just clicking next-next-next on a story, then there isn't that same feeling of accomplishment or satisfaction, or in the best of cases, pleasant surprise or even "holy shit!" when something unexpected happens.

 

[morphnet]

I explicitly differentiated between 'wank-fests' and actual visual *novels*; novel implying there is an actual coherent story attached to the 'porn'. So I don't particularly understand why you come at me as though I'm asking for devs to move heaven and earth just for me.

The context of this thread and of your entire OP is the MC and how they are written, your blanket statement...

general plea to developers: stop making generic, unlikeable, garbage MCs.

and your follow up "advice" on "creating a basic character"

So here's a helpful guide to creating a basic character: Your character should have feelings. They should have motivations, interests, desires, goals, and - *most importantly* - they should have FLAWS. They should make mistakes. They should fail (sometimes). They should have weaknesses that lead to seemingly obvious missteps. They should learn and improve.

Add to that the fact that you point out "I explicitly differentiated between 'wank-fests' and actual visual *novels*" and this all goes to show how narrow your views are and that you are ignoring the tastes of other players out there and you are asking for games to be more catered to your tastes.

what about kinetic novels? sims like VN's? dating sim VN's, etc. etc. in these. having predetermined flaws, interests, desires, goals can be very counter productive to a coherent story. In many of those cases a generic MC is preferable to help mold and drive the story forward by allowing the player to set all those themselves.

What about the players who are tried of all the flaws and mistakes and want an MC that does everything right and gets all the women? What about the players who consider your "They should learn and improve." to be nothing more than a annoying grind fest and want a story without having to watch 100 "self-improvement" scenes? etc. etc. etc.

Can you honestly say you gave those or any other players a thought when you made the thread?

A quick google search could show you that there are clearly defined elements of what good storytelling is. Are you suggesting that I'm being unreasonable for expecting authors - for that is what someone who creates a visual novel is - to create interesting and engaging protagonists?

Yes because if you read through some of those you will see that the elements change depending on the genre, type and media the story takes place in. Which is why new elements have developed to replace some existing ones. In a 500 page novel you can explain in painful detail that the protagonist likes toast, in a 1 page short you don't have that luxury. One size does NOT fit all.

Rather, I think it's you who should raise your expectations, rather than I should lower mine.

My expectations take others enjoyment into account, yours clearly do NOT.

If you're the type of person who needs to be able to 'see himself' as the main character, that's fine. I personally don't need to believe I am Luke Skywalker in order to enjoy the Star Wars movies, but more power to you.

...and you made that assumption based on?

Even if that's the case, though, where you need the MC to be the avatar of your own identity, why wouldn't you want to be a three-dimensional person?

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Why would you want to be someone who gets whatever he wants with zero effort, who never faces a challenge, who never has to work to win affection?

I wouldn't BUT there are others who would and when i play games I realize not everyone thinks like I do and that I am NOT the only one playing the game. Also have you never heard of cash shop, microtransactions, loot boxes, double xp events etc. etc. etc.

You are either clearly new to gaming or are only thinking of yourself.

I'm not asking for Tolstoy (who was far better than Shakespeare, IMO ) I'm simply asking for a touch, a smidge of humanity.

No you are NOT! you clearly made a blanket statement and asked for A LOT more than a "touch" or a "smidge"

allow me to make a general plea to developers: stop making generic, unlikeable, garbage MCs.

You're more than a walking dildo, my friend, and so am I. Is it too much to ask that AVN devs give us protagonists that match that bare minimum?

and some do

and some cater to other players tastes, some players want Tolstoy, some want Shakespeare and some want pinky and the brain and I realize I don't have the right to tell them their story isn't good, I just know it's not good for me and i either deal with it or find something new. Asking them to change it means the people who like pinky and the brain loose out, what makes my tastes more important than theirs? Especially when I DO have other options.

When I find one I like I enjoy it but if I find one I like despite not liking certain parts i.e. large penis all i can say is "duh" MC's I either ignore it to enjoy the other parts or I find myself a new game because I realize that not everyone shares my tastes and they deserve to enjoy games just as much as I do.

If there were NO good MC's WITH good stories out there you might have an argument but there ARE, so asking dev's to take enjoyment away from others just for your tastes IS asking too much, IS unreasonable and IS selfish.

Instead how about just asking if they could make a few more?

 

[fh321]

Alright. Thanks for your input. If you enjoy visual novels with MCs so flat and one dimensional you can slip them beneath a closed door, you must be extraordinarily happy with the vast plethora of games currently available that meet that criteria. Have a good day!

 

[nobodyfast]

Personally I want them to go one way or the other, either just don't have the character be anything more than a vessel or have them be a well written character. That's what I prefer at least, I dislike a lot of visual novels because they opt to make the MC a "character" that really has no character, but I also can't imprint myself on.

 

[aereton]

MC can be blank, I often prefer that because it doesn't interfere with the player's agency. But he must not be a wimp, I don't ask for more lol.

 

[nobodyfast]

MC can be blank, I often prefer that because it doesn't interfere with the player's agency. But he must not be a wimp, I don't ask for more lol.

There's certainly a line, I can deal with a certain amount of "cardboard character", it honestly just depends on how good the author is at handling these things.

 

[Logan1377]

MC can be blank, I often prefer that because it doesn't interfere with the player's agency. But he must not be a wimp, I don't ask for more lol.

I mostly agree. Games where he's scared of his own shadow and hesitant to have sex are just something I can't wrap my head around. I guess its a fetish for some people?

 

[HarveyD]

If you're the type of person who needs to be able to 'see himself' as the main character, that's fine. I personally don't need to believe I am Luke Skywalker in order to enjoy the Star Wars movies, but more power to you. Even if that's the case, though, where you need the MC to be the avatar of your own identity, why wouldn't you want to be a three-dimensional person? Why would you want to be someone who gets whatever he wants with zero effort, who never faces a challenge, who never has to work to win affection?

I will always wish for better writing from any author, so I do mainly agree with you, but in regards to these two points,

I don't think many people need to "see themselves" as a character like Luke whilst watching a movie, because it's a movie. There's an entirely different set of expectations there. The same goes for tv shows and books. Often with visual novels you're making choices and given the option to make the protagonist "you".

And why wouldn't one want the protagonist to be a three-dimensional person? Because my expectations of a three-dimensional person and the authors likely differ. The more fleshed out they become, the less likely to be "me" that they are. You said yourself that they "should have weaknesses that lead to obvious misteps", that is not something I look for in a game where I see myself as the main character. That isn't to say they should always succeed, but in a situation where the player can clearly see the wrong action and the character takes that action anyway, that just ruins your experience.

 

[jamdan]

In some games, the MC is just a placeholder for player immersion. They don't have any reason to exist other than that.

But for me the biggest issue with terrible MC's is often they're either complete a-holes, pushovers, total creeps or something similar.

A lot of the "placeholder" MC's are very guilty of this too. They have no redeeming qualities at all.

Many of them aren't truly "blank slate" characters either, like the MC's of the FallOut games or other first-person POV games for example.

Unlike those MC's, AVN MC's are given some trope like I mentioned above as the base of their character. Like the mean older sister, nice little sister tropes a lot of LI's have.

 

[aereton]

There's certainly a line, I can deal with a certain amount of "cardboard character", it honestly just depends on how good the author is at handling these things.

Agreed, it's neither completely one thing or the other. I guess a good balance between character agency and player agency is needed, however I recognize that is hard to quantify.

I mostly agree. Games where he's scared of his own shadow and hesitant to have sex are just something I can't wrap my head around. I guess its a fetish for some people?

Ohhh that's the worst for me personally. There are some exceptions, when it comes to incest for example, there is some good reason why MC might have reservations. But even then, it shouldn't be to the point where you get blue balled by your own MC for hours. I think men in the real world are so effeminate (in general) today, some people just kind of expect that behaviour (never let you be seen as "aggressive" in social terms and stuff like that).