RPGM The Last Sovereign [v0.77.2] [Sierra Lee]

[Fulminato]

It's funny because at the beginning you actually listed all the things that i didn't much like. I guess my problem as a whole is the lack of player agency in some aspects of the game.

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no, you misunderstanding the dialogue.
first the dialogue is about wynn e sarai, simon isn't here, so nothing they say are for him to hear. wynn say honestly she feel shitty for hurting simon and she hope him can forgive her. and she is willing to put effort for obtain his forgiveness.
and keep in mind wynn isn't a good social person, not she has a silver tongue, it's easy hurt someone if you don't know how bheave in borderline situation.

 

[Waxer]

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It's funny because at the beginning you actually listed all the things that i didn't much like. I guess my problem as a whole is the lack of player agency in some aspects of the game.

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I will say this tho, it doesn't happen often that i dislike a videogame character, but when it happens i usually do it fully and kinda singlemindedly. Last one was Emhyr from Witcher 3 like 4 years ago (i did have to read the books to fully appreaciate his assholery, tho), so if nothing else it's probably a testament to this game's quality that it got me to care so much about its characters.

Witcher 3 spoilers VVV

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I think you are focusing way the heavily on the relationship Wynn had with Wendis. She's not just using Simon as a proxy to get to her.
Also-
She didn't drop everything and move to Yhillin to help Simon just for Wendis.
She didn't save Robin on the order test for Wendis.
She didn't put her own life on the line to save Robin for the IK orc's attacking Steinford for Wendis.

She didn't do any of those things for Wendis because she had been gone for 30 years. She did it for Simon.

 

[Maizemallard]

no, you misunderstanding the dialogue.
first the dialogue is about wynn e sarai, simon isn't here, so nothing they say are for him to hear. wynn say honestly she feel shitty for hurting simon and she hope him can forgive her. and she is willing to put effort for obtain his forgiveness.
and keep in mind wynn isn't a good social person, not she has a silver tongue, it's easy hurt someone if you don't know how bheave in borderline situation.

I don't think you can misinterpret art its all about your perception of said product. The creator may have created something with a message in mind but the player can interpret that how ever they want and it still be as valid as the creators message. While I understood and even liked Wynn apology to Simon I also understand the interpretation that Wynn's apology was disingenuous. Its all about perception all you can do is encourage him to try and like Wynn but you cant force someone to like a character.

 

[Snugglepuff]

I don't think you can misinterpret art its all about your perception of said product.

That depends both on what the "art" is and how it's conveyed.

In regards of creative/ficitional writing as an art form, it can be easily misinterpreted by the reader for any number of reasons, such as not being aware of, or understanding, the context of a situation being written about, either because of personal bias toward one or more characters involved, or having missed/forgotten relevant details that were covered earlier.

The creator may have created something with a message in mind but the player can interpret that how ever they want and it still be as valid as the creators message.

Within reason, yes.

While I understood and even liked Wynn apology to Simon I also understand the interpretation that Wynn's apology was disingenuous. Its all about perception all you can do is encourage him to try and like Wynn but you cant force someone to like a character.

That's not about perception though. That's purely down to personal bias influencing a viewpoint, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

I didn't like what Wynn did, or how incredibly selfish she was in her grief that lead her to do that, but I understood why she did it.
As such, her apology on the basis that she hurt Simon and regrets that, the man who was a dear friend and husband to the woman she also loved, in no way came across as disingenuous. It wasn't about her actions, but the fallout.

 

[Daken9]

I think you are focusing way the heavily on the relationship Wynn had with Wendis. She's not just using Simon as a proxy to get to her.
Also-
She didn't drop everything and move to Yhillin to help Simon just for Wendis.
She didn't save Robin on the order test for Wendis.
She didn't put her own life on the line to save Robin for the IK orc's attacking Steinford for Wendis.

She didn't do any of those things for Wendis because she had been gone for 30 years. She did it for Simon.

I just don't see it that way. To be extremely brief, because i've already explained my point of view, to me she's just a selfish, callous character who can't see past her own grief for 2 seconds straight, bar a few occations. That she's also being forced down my throat, despite not being introduced in a favorable light, just adds to that.

I'll say i didn't know it was 30 years, the more you know. 30 years with a shrine, candles, tomb and everything. I dare say even twilight can't compare.

As such, her apology on the basis that she hurt Simon and regrets that, the man who was a dear friend and husband to the woman she also loved, in no way came across as disingenuous. It wasn't about her actions, but the fallout.

If you apologize for the fallout of an action, but not for the action itself, then the apology means nothing. Maybe, possibly, if the action isn't shitty and selfish.

But, again, it's the sum of things that bother me, the half-assed apology is just one of them. Had there been a lenghty flashback section with both her and Wendis maybe i could have seen things from her point of view. Had there been an option to make Simon not so passive and restrained during their exchanges i would've been fine with it. As it is it's just annoying to me. And doubly so because the rest of the cast, good or evil, is great and well presented (even the the dumb one)

 

[Fulminato]

I don't think you can misinterpret art its all about your perception of said product. The creator may have created something with a message in mind but the player can interpret that how ever they want and it still be as valid as the creators message. While I understood and even liked Wynn apology to Simon I also understand the interpretation that Wynn's apology was disingenuous. Its all about perception all you can do is encourage him to try and like Wynn but you cant force someone to like a character.

if everything is right, everything is wrong. and it's not.
the words mean something, and that "something" is incompatible with daken interpretation.
there are obviously some room for personal interptretation, but any art conveys an meaning, often a cluster of meaning. but not a meaning and is opposite.

the whole of wynn interaction in the game are build about her searching simon's forgiveness. not the opposite. simon's angry can go only down. and even if you don't make any action it's will reach zero well before the end of the game.
the creator intention are pretty clear, she has done a thing hurting simon A LOT and she will search forgiveness to the pain she inflict to simon. she never backed down about what she has done, but she honestly regreet the way simon learn it.

robin dialogue just in that game segment

R: "Had you been able to restore Wendis to life, your actions would have been justified."
R: "The number of circumstances in which necromancy could accomplish such a thing are limited, but it is difficult to think rationally when grieving."
W: "It's not irrational. I'm telling you, there was a real chance her soul had gotten stuck."
R: "Regardless, that is all within the bounds of reason."
R: "What I am unwilling to forgive is how callous you were toward my father."
R: "If you had approached him honestly and apologized, instead of leaving it a surprise and then dismissing his emotions..."
R: "Not only would he have suffered less, he would have been more likely to agree with you."
W: "Look, I'm not great with people. But can you at least believe I don't want to hurt Simon?"
R: "I believe that's what you want, but whether or not you'll hurt him again is an open question."

i don't think this is compatible with daken interpretation, it's exactly the opposite.

 

[Snugglepuff]

If you apologize for the fallout of an action, but not for the action itself, then the apology means nothing. Maybe, possibly, if the action isn't shitty and selfish.

Contradiction of your reply aside, it wasn't only a selfish act. It was a selfish act during her grief and inability to come to terms with Wendis' death.
In other words, Wynn needed help and support when there was none.

 

[Sotman]

Anyway, I am baffled by Xerces' behaviour. Sending Xestris to a suicide mission is one thing but revoking her access to Philon? It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Daken9]

Contradiction of your reply aside, it wasn't only a selfish act. It was a selfish act during her grief and inability to come to terms with Wendis' death.
In other words, Wynn needed help and support when there was none.

If you didn't stop reading there you would have discovered the part about me not giving a shit about her motivations because the game doesn't give me a reason to give a shit about her motivation. Maybe i needed to be more blunt about it?

Also, the contradiction is saying 'As such, her apology on the basis that she hurt Simon and regrets that, the man who was a dear friend and husband to the woman she also loved, in no way came across as disingenuous. It wasn't about her actions, but the fallout.' and then backtracking when i don't fall for it.

Anyway, i'm done with this. People, as always, can't take different opinions without saying or implying the other person doesn't understand shit, and i'm getting tired of being as unoffensive as possible in return.

 

[Maizemallard]

I'm going to be honest to the people that are saying your interpretation is wrong because the creator had a meaning and if you don't interpret a piece of media as the same way as the creator does that means your wrong and discard the other persons opinion is a really shitty thing to do. It doesn't matter if the creator had a meaning or purpose what matters is what effect it has on a player if Draken says he doesn't like Wynn that's fine because that's his opinion and while I may disagree with him I wont discard his opinion and say Draken wrong about how he views Wynn. For example a piece of media may express how cool and great a character is but that doesn't mean the audience likes or cares for that character. When you discard a person opinion your not helping the game your just pissing off people from playing the game. We all have one thing we have in common we like the game we just have different opinions.

I'm saying this not to shit on people but because its been an issue I've seen plenty of comments saying they didn't like the gathering scenes and instead of people trying to understand that person point and encourage them to keep playing they just shit on them and tell them to not play the game which doesn't help anybody or the game.

 

[Fulminato]

Anyway, I am baffled by Xerces' behaviour. Sending Xestris to a suicide mission is one thing but revoking her access to Philon? It makes no sense whatsoever.

i'm agree with the first part, but not for the second, if he was sure of xestris demise leave the spell she can use to return to philon there is a possibility it can be used by his enemy to gain an opening in philon.

I'm going to be honest to the people that are saying your interpretation is wrong because the creator had a meaning and if you don't interpret a piece of media as the same way as the creator does that means your wrong

i find the common thought "this is my opinion, you cannot say nothing" very annoying.
because someone think something mean nothing. it's must a good thinking, or at least a decent argument to be considered and not simply dismissed.

for definition any creative act mean what the autor mean with. if you read in it something else it's only two possibility:
1. the autor made something wrong and the result is different from the meaning (s)he want
2. you are interpreted the thing wrong and you are plain wrong, nothing else. period.

i think in the whole game there are enough proof (and in this discussion there are reported some) to discard daken interpretation as the second case. he want think it? he is free to do, but it's remain a wrong intepretation.

 

[Snugglepuff]

If you didn't stop reading there you would have discovered the part about me not giving a shit about her motivations because the game doesn't give me a reason to give a shit about her motivation.

I didn't stop reading there, but what you said about not giving a shit about her motivations is contradicted by continuing to even talk about what she did, and your reaction to it.

Also, the contradiction

No, that was you contradicting yourself.

then backtracking when i don't fall for it.

You do understand that well written characters are like real people. They're nuanced in emotions and opinions, flawed.
She didn't backtrack on what she did, she simply apologised about what she regretted - hurting Simon like she did. It's entirely possible, and realistic, for someone to apologise for their actions hurting someone, but not for the actions themselves, and doesn't invalidate the apology, which you've already admitted to.

People, as always, can't take different opinions without saying or implying the other person doesn't understand shit

Then don't do the exact same thing yourself, or act as though your opinion was either immutable fact, or the only valid one.

 

[Daken9]

I didn't stop reading there, but what you said about not giving a shit about her motivations is contradicted by continuing to even talk about what she did, and your reaction to it.




No, that was you contradicting yourself.



You do understand that well written characters are like real people. They're nuanced in emotions and opinions, flawed.
She didn't backtrack on what she did, she simply apologised about what she regretted - hurting Simon like she did. It's entirely possible, and realistic, for someone to apologise for their actions hurting someone, but not for the actions themselves, and doesn't invalidate the apology, which you've already admitted to.



Then don't do the exact same thing yourself, or act as though your opinion was either immutable fact, or the only valid one.

You have severe problems with reading comprehension, and i can't be bothered to correct any of your points because you're not even twisting my words, you're just giving them complitely new definitions. Maybe consult a dictionary

I'm going to be honest to the people that are saying your interpretation is wrong because the creator had a meaning and if you don't interpret a piece of media as the same way as the creator does that means your wrong and discard the other persons opinion is a really shitty thing to do. It doesn't matter if the creator had a meaning or purpose what matters is what effect it has on a player if Draken says he doesn't like Wynn that's fine because that's his opinion and while I may disagree with him I wont discard his opinion and say Draken wrong about how he views Wynn. For example a piece of media may express how cool and great a character is but that doesn't mean the audience likes or cares for that character. When you discard a person opinion your not helping the game your just pissing off people from playing the game. We all have one thing we have in common we like the game we just have different opinions.

I'm saying this not to shit on people but because its been an issue I've seen plenty of comments saying they didn't like the gathering scenes and instead of people trying to understand that person point and encourage them to keep playing they just shit on them and tell them to not play the game which doesn't help anybody or the game.

You're cool

 

[Snugglepuff]

You have severe problems with reading comprehension

No, but by all means continue to insult me instead of addressing what I've said... Oh wait!

i can't be bothered to correct any of your points

because you're not even twisting my words, you're just giving them complitely new definitions. Maybe consult a dictionary

Well sweety-pie, you're going to have to address what I've said in order to back up your assertion here. Otherwise you're just left looking like such an incredible hypocrite, and incapable of doing anything beyond being angry at your views being challenged then devolving to insults.

 

[Daken9]

I didn't stop reading there, but what you said about not giving a shit about her motivations is contradicted by continuing to even talk about what she did, and your reaction to it.

Motivation=a reason or reasons for acting or behaving in a particular way.

Action=the fact or process of doing something, typically to achieve an aim.


No, that was you contradicting yourself.

Therefore not caring about the motivation clearly means not caring about the action that it leads to, and i clearly contradicted myself. Sorry, sweety-pie.

You do understand that well written characters are like real people. They're nuanced in emotions and opinions, flawed.
She didn't backtrack on what she did, she simply apologised about what she regretted - hurting Simon like she did. It's entirely possible, and realistic, for someone to apologise for their actions hurting someone, but not for the actions themselves, and doesn't invalidate the apology, which you've already admitted to.

Also, the contradiction is saying 'As such, her apology on the basis that she hurt Simon and regrets that, the man who was a dear friend and husband to the woman she also loved, in no way came across as disingenuous. It wasn't about her actions, but the fallout.' and then backtracking when i don't fall for it.

Clearly the words under the quotation marks are attributed to Wynn, and absolutely not you, sweety-pie. Therefore when i wrote, after them, "and then backtracking when i don't fall for it." I actually meant "and then Wynn backtracked when i didn't fall for it."

Contradiction of your reply aside, it wasn't only a selfish act. It was a selfish act during her grief and inability to come to terms with Wendis' death.
In other words, Wynn needed help and support when there was none.

So, obviously, i wasn't referring to the fact that you, sweety-pie, didn't even try to argue for your previous statement, but instead just dismissed most of mine, and went along with the rest.

Sorry once again, sweety-pie.


Then don't do the exact same thing yourself, or act as though your opinion was either immutable fact, or the only valid one.

(and i understand that's not how he sees it, and not how anyone in-game sees it, but it's just how i view that whole business based on what i was shown)

To me it's like tracking through mudd to get to a shitcake. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it's just how it felt to me.



It's funny because at the beginning you actually listed all the things that i didn't much like. I guess my problem as a whole is the lack of player agency in some aspects of the game.

Like, maybe i'm looking too much into it because, again, i don't like one of her dialogues

I just don't see it that way. To be extremely brief, because i've already explained my point of view

I'll forego all the times i said 'my opinion', or 'to me', or 'personally'. I'd be more than happy to quote all the times i wrote 'understand', 'wrong', 'don't see it', or even 'bias' and 'personal' (i'm that kinda person), but searching with F4 only lead me to other people's posts.

Not yours, sweety-pie, of couse. There was only one post of yours in the previous page, sweety-pie, how could you have written all that, sweety-pie.

Bye.

 

[Maizemallard]

I don't get how this has become such a controversy all this started was from one comment made by Daken saying that he personally didn't like Wynn That's it he never said she was a awful character or that people who like Wynn are wrong he simply stated he didn't like her in his opinion. All I can say is Draken I hope this doesn't ruin the game for you and that you keep playing and maybe you can try Wynn in the future like I said maybe you'll warm up to her.

Can we move on now I tire of this argument.

 

[Waxer]

Perhaps people in the thread should just...take a chill pill and come back tomorrow.

 

[Chaos1989]

Last Sovereign 54.0

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[Snugglepuff]

Bye.

Not yet shnookums, go edit that post again. It's a tad "broken" and I'm not going to dignify it by reading it in that state.

 

[Hero1]

Perhaps people in the thread should just...take a chill pill and come back tomorrow.

I think Yarra would say: