Ren'Py The Null Hypothesis [v0.7b] [Ron Chon]

[buttfan]

Wrong and I'm not reading all that

Because Zeus forbid you read something that might disagree with your view, and perhaps provide a new perspective. No, please, continue in your narrow minded little world and avoid any outside input.

"Let's make a series where a lot of the plot revolved around law and not hire a lawyer as legal consultant."

Legal Eagle (an actual California lawyer who talks a lot about different legal things in the world and tries to explain it for the rest of us) did an episode on She Hulk, and yeah, he was not impressed by the legal aspect. He figured the closing remarks of the defense in the first episode were stupid and almost guaranteed to lose, and most of the legal jargon used in the show was like someone opened a legal diary and picked random words from it.

the fact that on average women prefer to project themselves onto protagonists.

Oh come now, that's not just women, men do that all the time. It's actually the entire basis of the 'woke' complaint, men complaining about a character not being the idealized version of themselves. I know a guy who has pretty much no interest in a show if the lead isn't a straight white man, and he is by no means unique in the world (quite the contrary).

I would also argue that they aren't dismissing the existing fanbase, they are trying to reach more fans, to expand the fanbase. And again, returning to the fact that these are greedy corporations, they want more customers, more money. It's the way business works. Capitalism!

And the simple fact is, there are far more people in the world than the existing fan base, and aiming at straight white men to exclusion is kinda stupid (we are kinda outnumbered by a rather significant amount to be honest). And to be frank, it has been working. Bethesda for all their mediocrity has made Fallout many times larger than it was as a turn based isometric game. Disney makes a crap ton of money every year, and is steadily increasing (inflation is biting into their profit margin due to increasing costs, so despite increasing income in 2023 by over $6 billion, their profits went down by $110 million, to a mere $3.39 billion (still just shy of 4% net profit, which isn't too shabby - most large companies only run single digit profit percentages, only a few industries like pharmaceuticals, banking, and petroleum typically run double digit profit percentages).

Like it or not, at the end of the day it is hard to argue with success.

I will also note, that if a segment of the fanbase is toxic, they will kick them to the curb without hesitation, and do things to spite them.
Not that you would know anything about that, would you Shiny? Nothing like that was done in the Null Hypothesis.

I would also point out that quite often what people complain as 'woke' isn't even trying to reach out to another demographic, for example the BBC gets letters every time they have a trans character or actor in a show, whether they make a point of emphasizing the character is trans or not, the simple presence is all that matters. Often a show simply acknowledges other people exist and show some respect, and that is enough to set the anti-diversity people off (and let's be honest, it is not about whether something is good or not - shown by how much hate is directed at some things when nobody has even seen it yet - it is about racism, homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny).

=========

Ihave to apologize at this time.
I think I started this, and I'm sorry about the derailment.

Think I might take a few days away from the forum, let this peter out.

 

[Buttholder]

*lifts visor*
*gives a secret freemason wink*
*puts visor down*

Not saying I've taken the things I learned from Grant Morrison past writing technique, but I see the hypersigil is starting to work.

Hail Eris.

 

[sleepingkirby]

As to why they made that pitch to begin with... they just lied their ass off over their writing qualifications. That isn't an assumption. It's in the same interview where they say they don't know how to write legal shows.

Oh, that's right. I forgot about that... *sigh* You know, when I was still living in LA (around 2002 or 2003), I met up with some friends of friends that were attending USC. They spent like an hour talking and discussing about their efforts and ways to cheat on their tests. I mentioned "You know, with all the effort you're going through figuring out how to cheat, you might as well just study." And their reply to me was "Yeah, but this is the American way." People like these writers will always be a reminder to me as to why that's people like these get ahead and make things worse for the rest of us.

Yes but they specifically point it out and Jennifer flexes on Bruce because apparently women are Hulk levels of angry 24/7 by default.

Honestly, I've always chalk that up to the writers' way of explaining to people new to the She-Hulk franchise as to why she doesn't have to go through the same turmoil as Bruce. Is it kind of clumsy? Yeah. But also, all the marvel TV series kind of are clumsy.

*sigh* Makes me wonder how many people lied about their qualifications to get their positions at marvel.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Legal Eagle...

Yeah, I watched that. That's one of the things that made me wish this series was a proper legal drama. BTW, he graduated from UCLA but is current practicing law out of DC. Not important to our conversation, but very important distinction to him so I wanted to point that out.

Ihave to apologize at this time.
I think I started this, and I'm sorry about the derailment.

Think I might take a few days away from the forum, let this peter out.

If it makes you feel any better, I do that from time to time too. Makes me glad I live in another country and speak other languages. There are days where I'm just like "No media in English today." and it works really well.

 

[Buttholder]

*sigh* Makes me wonder how many people lied about their qualifications to get their positions at marvel.

One of the editors at Marvel lied about hiring a Japanese writer and instead wrote and submitted stories under a pseudonym for years, so there isn't much that would surprise me anymore. Said editor is the most stereotypical neckbeard you could possibly imagine. The craziest thing is, that didn't even cost him his job, he's still working there as editor-in-chief. Google 'Akira Yoshida' if you want more info.

 

[sleepingkirby]

The craziest thing is, that didn't even cost him his job, he's still working there as editor-in-chief. Google 'Akira Yoshida' if you want more info.

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up on it now and...god damn it...

Although Cebulski has lived in Japan...because he speaks fluent Japanese...Cebulski came under fire. When writing as Yoshida, his characters were often Japanese or included Japanese stereotypes. As the Atlantic

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, for instance, in the X-Men comics he worked on, the heroes would travel to Japan to fight and/or have sex with ninjas, samurai and yakuza.

God fucking damn it...

 

[RandomNumber]

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up on it now and...god damn it...

God fucking damn it...

In Cebulski's defense, ninjas, samurai, and yakuza are all fundamental aspects of Wolverine's canon.

 

[sleepingkirby]

In Cebulski's defense, ninjas, samurai, and yakuza are all fundamental aspects of Wolverine's canon.

Right, but like, they are fundamental part of Wolverine's cannon BECAUSE they're stereotypical. He was brought in to hire a Japanese writer so they can break out of the stereotype...only for him to NOT do that, write it himself, and continue the stereotype.

Basically, according to that article, he was first hired to do one job. And he failed at that just so he can fail the task further.

And part of me can't shake the feeling of someone badly explaining something to someone that knows the subject. It's like that time a guy tried to explain to me, someone that knows Chinese and did shaolin martial arts, that the word "Kung-fu" came from name "Confucian". (For those that think that's possible. No, no it does not. That's the English equivalent of saying the word "history" comes from the word "hysterectomy")

 

[Z - Reborn]

Disney never went woke.
It just wanted to look like it had and made several poor business decisions while they were at it. Like trying to make their films across several franchises "more available", while ignoring the largest demographics for those films.

Dude Disney's Star Wars series and the MCU are the poster-boys of the woke era. They straight up pioneered it.

 

[Evil13]

Dude Disney's Star Wars series and the MCU are the poster-boys of the woke era. They straight up pioneered it.

"Dude", they didn't. It's a corporation and it wanted to get the untapped market of those franchises and completely forgot the core demographic that made those franchises successful.

Shiny made a better post about it here https://f95zone.to/threads/the-null-hypothesis-v0-4a-ron-chon.138294/post-13541287

 

[RandomNumber]

He was brought in to hire a Japanese writer so they can break out of the stereotype...only for him to NOT do that, write it himself, and continue the stereotype.

That isn't exactly true. He was supposed to bring in a Japanese writer because the line they were trying to publish was the "mangaverse," a series of books intended to capitalize on the emerging popularity of anime and manga in the west in the early 2000s when Toonami and Adult Swim were taking off. And if you look at those Mangaverse books (There's a Jean Grey one in particular that's basically trying to be softcore hentai), I'd say there's a deliberate aim on every creator involved's parts to have more stereotyping than usual, just a different set of stereotypes, specifically a surface level attempt to copy the public perception of anime imagery and tropes. Iron Man as a mecha, more white haired characters, giant eyes and no noses, etc.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Mangaverse books (There's a Jean Grey one in particular that's basically trying to be softcore hentai), I'd say there's more stereotyping than usual, just a different set of stereotypes.

Was it more stereotypical because the writer was Cebulski?


By the way, I'd like to point out that, for a fluent Japanese speaker, he didn't even have the knowledge to put Matsuda's actual last name. You don't write Japanese names in katakana.

It should have been 松田. A fairly common Japanese last name.

 

[RandomNumber]

Was it more stereotypical because the writer was Cebulski?
View attachment 3567202

My point here is there was an entire line of Mangaverse books. Mangaverse Spider-Man by Kaare Andrews, for example, is a story in which Peter's a ninja in the "Spider clan" and his "sensei" Uncle Ben is murdered by Venom who's from a rival clan. Is your premise that Cebulski forced him to write that? Did Cebulski make Peter David write mangaverse Punisher to be a woman who dresses like a geisha and uses dominatrix gear to "punish" Tokyo crime families? The whole POINT of the mangaverse was just "kids are getting into anime, make an AU that's full of cool Japanese shit."

There was never any intention to "break out of stereotypes". It was 2002, those stereotypes were very much in vogue at the time (as was the "amateur trying to copy anime" artstyle. We're talking about the founding days of webcomics and DeviantArt here) and embracing them was the heart of the sales pitch.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Is your premise that Cebulski forced him to write that?

No, my point is, notice how no one you named was a Japanese writer? Like the one Celbuski was suppose to hire? For this series? Like, I remember seeing those. And that point, I was actually starting to read things in Japanese. These were watered, trope-y and stereotypical looking that looks to capitalize on something without consulting, asking or learning the about the culture beyond stereotypes. If he had done his job, the problem of stereotypes probably wouldn't be a problem. Saying "Hey, in this guy's defense, there are other stereotypes." is kinda like saying "In that firefighter's defense of not showing up, the house was already on fire."

Here, I'll break this down.
Me: There's no need for the stereotypes. At least not ones this bad.
You: Wolverine does have some stereotypes.
Me: Yeah, but isn't that what he was suppose to change?
You: Well no, he was brought to find a Japanese writer for manga verse. Which has stereotypes, but also has another set of stereotypes.
Me: Yeah, which exists because he didn't bring on a Japanese writer and he, himself, did the stereotyping because he didn't bring on a Japanese writer.
You: Are you saying he made other people write stereotypes?
Me: No, he was suppose to bring someone on so these stereotypes can stop happening because the people they have now will just keep writing stereotypes.

Like, for you to counter my point, you'd need to show either a) These stereotypes exist WITH a Japanese (like, wrote for/drew mangas in Japan) writer or b) Non Japanese writers wrote non-stereotypical Japanese things. In keep saying "Stereotypes exist". My response would be, "Yes, I know. Cebulski was suppose to fix that and he didn't." Switching one stereotype for another doesn't really cut it. It's like changing out a Fu-manchu mustache and buck teeth for broken English with Chinese accent. It doesn't solve the problem, it just slightly re-arranges it.

Like, for god's sake, they used that old-ass typeface that supposed looks Chinese:

For a *manga* (Read, Japanese). And what's up with that art of katanas? This is what I'd expect a 6th grader's impression of Japanese culture to be or someone whose sole exposure to Japanese culture was from old Speed Racer cartoons and Godzilla movies.

Like, I'm not going to say it's culturally insensitive or whatever, but this is really bad. And, with a small amount of effort, and literally one person doing the job he was hired to do, this could have been a lot better.

Like, literally, all he had to do was do the thing he was hired to do. I didn't think that'd be something I'd have to prove is a good thing/idea.

 

[RandomNumber]

Stereotypes and Japanese writers are not antithetical. Cebulski's job never had anything to do with avoiding stereotypes. They wanted the stereotypes. They wanted to make western manga, to appeal to the western impression of what manga is, which means they wanted the X-Men to look like Gundam and Naruto. They just also wanted to advertise authenticity, or rather the illusion of it, by putting a Japanese creator's name on the cover. It was pure 100% sales stunt. There are Japanese writers and artists who write about ninjas and samurai too, Japanese mangaka who would have given them the western stereotypes of the east that they wanted. Cebulski just happened to not know any and lied about it. He was a weeb who used a psuedonym to hide his weebness, that's the one and only actual thing he did wrong in his job as an editor.

Although I honestly don't think he would've needed to hide behind a fake name and pretend a Japanese person made their manga if his bosses hadn't told him that's what they wanted, because google the book "How to Draw Manga" by Katy Coope, a clearly not Asian person, and look at how bad the cover art is. That's the kind of garbage "for manga fans" that were all over mainstream bookshelves in the early oughts

People bought those. I don't know why, but they did. This is the audience the Mangaverse was after, not people like you who speak fluent Japanese or modern audiences who more easily recognize things like this as inauthentic and culturally insensitive.

But just for the record, there's not a story on this Earth that can't be improved by adding ninjas to it and everyone knows it, including this game. (#PsylockeForCh2)

 

[sleepingkirby]

Stereotypes and Japanese writers are not antithetical.

Agreed. This is why I wrote:

Like, for you to counter my point, you'd need to show either a) These stereotypes exist WITH a Japanese (like, wrote for/drew mangas in Japan) writer

Cebulski's job never had anything to do with avoiding stereotypes. They wanted the stereotypes. They wanted to make western manga, to appeal to the western impression of what manga is, which means they wanted the X-Men to look like Gundam and Naruto. They just also wanted to advertise authenticity, or rather the illusion of it, by putting a Japanese creator's name on the cover...

So...fraud. They wanted fraud. Like, that's worse. If that's what they truly wanted (which, neither of us can say for sure if that's the case because, if that's what they wanted, they wouldn't have needed to even bother hiring Chebulski. They could have just made someone up. Or just tap Jim Lee. So they were either incompetent or they wanted fraud.), at least that's exactly what they got. And, all the same we're all worst off because of it.

There are Japanese writers and artists who write about ninjas and samurai too, Japanese mangaka who would have given them the western stereotypes of the east that they wanted. Cebulski just happened to not know any and lied about it. He was a weeb who used a psuedonym to hide his weebness.

Agreed, but this also kinda proves my point. If they found a manga artist that can do what they want, they'd probably do a better job and STILL hit all the stereotypical things they're expecting. If he had just done his one job. Like, there's stereotype and there's *stereotype*. As in there's "Giant monsters appearing and wrecking cities is a common trope." and there's "Japanese people eat sushi all day long and drink tea." And Chebulski's definitely leaning towards the latter. A Japanese writer probably would lean towards the former and that would have been better.

And just for the record, there's not a story on this Earth that can't be improved by adding ninjas to it and everyone knows it, including this game. (#PsylockeForCh2)

Well, I would say Gundam 08th MS team would have been worse with ninjas in it. But I agree that a lot of stories can be improved with ninjas. Just, like, don't over do it.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

Is there some exterior reason for her taking this domineering role?

The narrative angle is that she basically had no free will. Not basically. She genuinely did not. There's a pheromone trigger that turns off her higher functions and attacks whoever was splashed with them.

So she's trying to take control of her life but because she doesn't know how social dynamics work, it comes off as her being dommy.

Some people overhype her dominant aspects more than there are because she only really becomes domineering if you encourage it. There's points in the main story where if you didn't encourage it, Null will speak up and tell her not to boss him around.

It's a coping mechanism, as are all quirks. They're intentionally written to be kinky, but unhealthy.

If you don't encourage quirks, Null is a lot more helpful in a constructive way rather than just allowing himself to be an outlet for their frustration.

Though we're doing a rework of the system to allow Null, and thus the player, to encourage these habits in a dynamic way.

Such as telling Laura it's okay to stalk you, but not to dominate you in the bedroom. Or telling her that it's okay to be dommy in the bed room but not outside it.

If she's in some series like she's in here, I might read my first one!

Click on the link in my signature. It'll tell you a lot of what to expect from our game development and has a link to an entire write-up of her best works.

Oh come now, that's not just women, men do that all the time.

I said on average. I wasn't excluding men or implying it's just a women thing.

I would also argue that they aren't dismissing the existing fanbase

I would agree with you if it weren't for the numerous articles of writers, directors, and actresses openly stating "This isn't for you!" Or stuff like "The Force Is Female." Which was said by the current head of Lucas Arts. She even wore it on a shirt.

Like there's nothing nuanced about it. They're being very direct about it.

Bethesda for all their mediocrity has made Fallout many times larger than it was as a turn based isometric game.

Two very different companies. Though you're right.

However, I'd argue it's because of how dated Fallout 1&2 are. If they had the tech that modern isometric games like Baldur's Gate 3 or Disco Elysium have, I have a strong feeling they'd out-perform the FPS games.

Though I'll admit that we don't live in that reality so it's mostly me going off of market assumptions.

Like it or not, at the end of the day it is hard to argue with success.

When Bob Iger, the head of Disney, states that their current model is failing. Combined with the fact that Disney has needed to shut down several hotels and businesses, as well as upcharging the parks and other services to cater to more wealthier customers in an attempt to turn a profit... I don't know where you're getting that success from.

Like even your own math is showing they're making less. Yeah many of their projects break even, but that hasn't been considered a success for decades as the money has to be distributed to the people who worked on the film and shareholders so Disney as a company actually does lose money.

Not that you would know anything about that, would you Shiny? Nothing like that was done in the Null Hypothesis.

Don't remind me.

As explained above we actually do have corruptive elements but people just moved the goalpost to outright be abusive in ways that not even RLE goes to.

Someone once suggested necrophilia in which Laura flatlines and we fuck her in that period it takes for her to heal back.

Yeah, it was one guy but Jesus it was one hell of an escalation during that conversation.

Think I might take a few days away from the forum, let this peter out.

Forums can induce stress my dude.

"Yeah, but this is the American way."

It isn't but cheaters will justify their actions in crazy ways. I'm not happy with America right now but I don't like to let my biases get in the way of being fair.

that the word "Kung-fu" came from name "Confucian"

This is a brain-dead take if I've ever seen one. Like I'm not even familiar with that part of the world's history and even I wouldn't come to such a stupid conclusion.

It's a corporation and it wanted to get the untapped market of those franchises and completely forgot the core demographic that made those franchises successful.

Hence Electronic Arts' tactic of taking something, adding microtransactions, and then assuming the IP wasn't popular when it fails and not their shitty business practices.

Did Cebulski make Peter David write mangaverse Punisher to be a woman who dresses like a geisha and uses dominatrix gear to "punish" Tokyo crime families?

That's... a thing? Like dude... what even?

These were watered, trope-y and stereotypical looking that looks to capitalize on something without consulting, asking or learning the about the culture beyond stereotypes.

To be fair, not saying it's a good thing, but every culture does this to every culture. Look at Americans in literally any other country's media and you'll see either fat dudes or people obsessed with guns.

Heck to associate with you, no country portrays China in an flattering way. RIP Akira Toriyama but his mistreatment of Krillan and Tien are pretty good examples.

a) These stereotypes exist WITH a Japanese (like, wrote for/drew mangas in Japan) writer

Again, to be fair, at the time Mangaverse was becoming a thing the Japanese manga and anime industry was relying on its own stereotypical tropes. Miyazaki's often misquoted "Anime was a mistake" came from an interview where he criticized studios for just cannibalizing other anime and relying on the same tropes repeatedly rather than attempting to portray stories and characters as real situations and real people to tell a more relatable story.

Not to defend him, but Cebulski's "contributions", including the Punisher thing, was no worse than what the Japanese were putting out themselves. I'm 100% sure that's why he got away with it for as long as he did.

 

[RandomNumber]

So...fraud. They wanted fraud. Like, that's worse. If that's what they truly wanted (which, neither of us can say for sure if that's the case because, if that's what they wanted, they wouldn't have needed to even bother hiring Chebulski. They could have just made someone up. Or just tap Jim Lee.

Well first of all, Jim Lee is a Korean who's lived in America since elementary school and probably doesn't know any mangaka from Japan either.

Second, the reason I can say with confidence that they wanted fraud is because they got what they wanted, there is a reason that Cebulski wasn't fired but rather ended up promoted to Editor in Chief. And if you think you need to be GOOD at writing or editing or hiring people to be an EiC in mainstream comics, all I need to do is point at Joe Quesada and Dan Didio in an angry, accusatory manner.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

So...fraud. They wanted fraud.

I don't want to be guilty of slander or libel but it very strongly seemed that way.

all the same we're all worst off because of it.

they'd probably do a better job

My response to both these points is no, not really? I'll admit I only read the Spiderman Mangaverse and it really was no different compared to the stuff that was being pushed out by the Japanese AT THE TIME.

there's "Japanese people eat sushi all day long and drink tea."

This is actually a trope you'll find in plenty of manga and anime made in Japan. It's a caricature to mock Otaku or people up their own ass about being Japanese. I mean the Japanese as a majority are pretty nationalistic so it should tell you something that even they see some as taking it too far.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

And if you think you need to be GOOD at writing or editing or hiring people to be an EiC in mainstream comics,

You don't even need to be a good artist. I mean Ultimate Fantastic 4 had a dude trace porn and iirc he's still getting work.