To Developers of Incest Games

[slitherhence]

This is not a thread to post your gripes about Patreon's rules. I get that their rules suck. I fucking hate their rules too. But that is not what this thread is about. This thread is very specifically about the use of one specific contrivance as a means of establishing incest as part of a game's story as opposed to the many other options available. Patreon's rules have nothing to do with that. Any further attempt to derail this thread to bitch about Patreon's policies will be reported as off topic.

Let's get something out of the way right off the bat. I'm adopted. This is not a dig at being adopted.

That said... if the characters in your game do not share a blood relation... then it's not incest. (ok ok ok, it can be, read the edit below) I don't care what the law says. I don't care if your adopted friend thinks it would still be weird to screw his mom. It's not incest. It's two people who have known each other since one of them was a child having sex with each other... nothing more.

Real talk now: there is one and only one meaningful way in which two people who are blood related is any more taboo than any other two people having sex: alleles. Incestuous sex, over enough generations, leads to birth defects and deformity because of the alleles being paired with identical alleles over and over causing what would otherwise insignificant and unnoticeable abnormalities to become a very noticeable deformities that cripple those burdened by them for life.

Frankly, I'm not actually opposed to incest. (Oh shit!? He actually said it! Oh shit!) Sure, go ahead and freak out. Whatever. I tend to think if two people are consenting and mature enough to understand the risks... have fun. But I'll admit the taboo nature of it is hot as fuck. And that's what games like this are for... living out those taboo fantasies you can't risk in real life.

It instantly stops being hot when I read the words "my step-sis" or "my adopted mom". It just loses all that extra appeal. And then what I'm left with, often enough, is poorly drawn/terribly rendered yet short scenes between mountains of RPG-esque grinding. No thanks. I can get vanilla porn on Pornhub in HD without the extra effort, butter faces, and ridiculous blimp tits (seriously, if you can hide three monkeys and a wallaby under her boobs and her never figure out where the screeching is coming from... they're too fucking big).

So please. Please please please. Next time you get the itch, right after introducing the characters as "my mom" and "my sis" and "my brother", you get the urge to have a scene where the MC finds out he/she is adopted... don't. Just fucking don't. For the love of hotness... don't.

EDIT: I'd like to clarify that It's not really about the adoption. I did a very poor job of being clear on that above. I was fresh off being cock blocked by yet another game pulling this crap on me.

It's about games that don't establish the familial relationship well or at all before diving into the sexual, incestuous one and, at the same time, throw out the blood relationship too. You can make the relationship taboo by establishing the familial ties, the blood ties, or both. When you establish neither, the taboo part seems silly instead of erotic. And that's what I usually see when incest-focused games go the step-sibling/adoption route. The thing is, it's really freaking hard to establish that familial relationship before the incest starts unless the game has something other than incest to carry it in the mean time. Hence why I focus on the step-sibling/adoption contrivance above.

 

[Netori Popeye]

Very good points. I agree with you.

 

[Humlebien]

ridiculous blimp tits (seriously, if you can hide three monkeys and a wallaby under her boobs and her never figure out where the screeching is coming from... they're too fucking big)

Preach Brother!

 

[Avaron1974]

It seems like you have no idea why they do that.

Incest is banned on Patreon, if they put it in their game, their game gets banned from Patreon. They didn't wake up one morning and think "I know, let's fuck over some random guy on F95 pirate site and remove all incest content", they did it so Patreon doesn't pull down their game.

 

[slitherhence]

It seems like you have no idea why they do that.

Incest is banned on Patreon, if they put it in their game, their game gets banned from Patreon. They didn't wake up one morning and think "I know, let's fuck over some random guy on F95 pirate site and remove all incest content", they did it so Patreon doesn't pull down their game.

No. That explanation doesn't fly. First off... this has been going on since before Pateron's policies were such. Second, many games are still on Patreon that get around the problem by letting you define your relationship with the other characters at game start.

A more realistic reason would be that in some states/countries it's illegal to produce media that depicts an incestuous relationship. But it's also illegal to perform anal sex in most of those same places... doesn't stop anyone.

I'm actually quite aware of the circumstances of this issue.

 

[Netori Popeye]

No. That explanation doesn't fly. First off... this has been going on since before Pateron's policies were such. Second, many games are still on Patreon that get around the problem by letting you define your relationship with your other characters at game start.

A more realistic reason would be that in some states/countries it's illecial to produce media that depicts and incestuous relationship. But it's also illegal to perform Anal in most of those same places... doesn't stop anyone.

Exactly, the problem predates Patreon's recently implemented asinine anti-incest rules.

 

[おい！]

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"We also do not allow other fringe sexual fetish content, such as incest, necrophilia, or fetish content that is hard to distinguish from non-consensual sex."

 

[Hadley]

Yeah this whole "Step-Sister" and "Roommate" is kinda ridiculous, but its because Nazi-Patreon bullies Devs out that don't do what they say. Thats why I fucking hope Patreon dies as soon as possible and people move to Steam.

 

[DarthSeduction]

That said... if the characters in your game do not share a blood relation... then it's not incest. I don't care what the law says. I don't care if your adopted friend thinks it would still be weird to screw his mom. It's not incest. It's two people who have known each other since one of them was a child having sex with each other... nothing more.

Incest in a scientific sense is exactly what you go on to describe after this, but in a psychological sense, this is actually false. You see, during your development you form a sort of mental block against having romantic/sexual love for the people in your family, but this is purely a matter of familiarity and has nothing to do with blood. You can form this same block for a really close family friend who you spend all your time with, you can form this block for a cousin. However, if that same level of familiarity isn't met, even if it's with your blood sibling, you could potentially develop those feelings.

The taboo still exists with our without blood so long as the relationship is well done.

It instantly stops being hot when I read the words "my step-sis" or "my adopted mom". It just loses all that extra appeal. And then what I'm left with, often enough, is poorly drawn/terribly rendered yet short scenes between mountains of RPG-esque grinding. No thanks. I can get vanilla porn on Pornhub in HD without the extra effort, butter faces, and ridiculous blimp tits (seriously, if you can hide three monkeys and a wallaby under her boobs and her never figure out where the screeching is coming from... they're too fucking big).

As to this, I agree, however we don't have a choice. I am bound by Patreon's rules not to include Incest, no matter how much I want to, as a result I have skirted this ruling using the "god-parent" idea and not mentioning the blood relationship between the siblings. However there is an incest patch that restores that content. I, generally speaking, don't get anything from step relations unless the atmosphere is done incredibly well.

I recently watched the Yuri, Shoujo-ai anime Citrus, in it a girl and her step sister fall for one another, and they play with the sister thing a bit. I didn't really feel it all that much however, because none of the people who needed to express that it was taboo actually did express that it was taboo. The mother and father of the girls didn't even know about it. One friend either was ignorant or feigned ignorance the whole way through, even though it was not hidden from her at all. The other girl's friend served as a romantic rival as well, however, so she did bring it up, but that arc ended and it wasn't an issue anymore. The taboo wasn't there because they didn't do it well.

That said, Eromanga Sensei and Kiss x Sis are good examples of incest romances between step-siblings that I think worked incredibly well. They played up the taboo and made it feel real. I could also say the same of Onegai Twins, in which one of them isn't actually his sister, but they don't find out which till the end, the taboo is still real. Air Gear is another good one, in which the MC isn't actually related to the girls he lives with, but they have a familial relationship from his childhood and these girls act as his sisters, so the taboo is there.

I know I'm talking about non ero projects here, but that's on purpose. It isn't the sex that is going to make you feel the taboo, it's the relationship between the characters. I get the same feelings of taboo with childhood friends as I do with incest when written properly. In fact, I just finished watching another yuri anime (I'm doing research for seraphim academy) and it only featured friends who had known one another since middle school now as first year high school students. The entire show is about the two of them exploring their cutesy girl love relationship, and it did a better job of creating a taboo air to it than some incest games do. Meanwhile, actual blood related incest games don't always get that taboo across well. I really like Sisterly Lust as a game, but I don't think it handles the taboo well. It seems unwilling to add that antagonistic worry to the game, though it has dipped its toes a few times and they sometimes talk about it being wrong, it too often makes light of the issue.

I have a lot of problems with Dating My Daughter, it's pacing is fucking horrible, the characters are inconsistent, and the romance is juvenile, but it does one thing right, creating an atmosphere for the taboo. The constant worry of both characters that their secret will get out is perfect. What matters in all incest isn't the blood relationship, its the fear of getting caught, it's the need to find a way to have this relationship without interference. Even if you want other characters to find out eventually, or join in, you need to make it clear that these characters need to be corrupted, and you need to convince me that they are.

 

[slitherhence]

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"We also do not allow other fringe sexual fetish content, such as incest, necrophilia, or fetish content that is hard to distinguish from non-consensual sex."

You want to link war? Ok.

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Just a few. None of which even have to be patched to enable incest content.

Speacking of... there's also patches:

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The link to which is action in the menu at the top of this page.

At no point is "the MC is adopted" the only choice. Stop insisting that it is.

 

[おい！]

You want to link war? Ok.

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Just a few. None of which even have to be patched to enable incest content.

Speacking of... there's also patches:

You must be registered to see the links

The link to which is action in the menu at the top of this page.

At no point is "the MC is adopted" the only choice. Stop insisting that it is.

Grow up I was just pointing out the reason why devs cannot include incest content in their games anymore. If you already know why incest content is not allowed, why start this thread?

 

[ThisIsMe88]

it's pacing is fucking horrible, the characters are inconsistent, and the romance is juvenile

Not wanting to derail the thread, but so glad that some people actually do notice, and we start talking about it.

So many authors (not only of incest-games) still have unfortunately no clue about how to make these work in harmony together with decent art to create enjoyable games (of whatever genre). Character and world building, character interactions and pacing just cannot be ignored in favor of ever-growing (in size) CG slideshows.

Thank you very much to the authors that actually also care about the quality of their writing.

 

[slitherhence]

Incest in a scientific sense is exactly what you go on to describe after this, but in a psychological sense, this is actually false. You see, during your development you form a sort of mental block against having romantic/sexual love for the people in your family, but this is purely a matter of familiarity and has nothing to do with blood. You can form this same block for a really close family friend who you spend all your time with, you can form this block for a cousin. However, if that same level of familiarity isn't met, even if it's with your blood sibling, you could potentially develop those feelings.

The taboo still exists with our without blood so long as the relationship is well done.



As to this, I agree, however we don't have a choice. I am bound by Patreon's rules not to include Incest, no matter how much I want to, as a result I have skirted this ruling using the "god-parent" idea and not mentioning the blood relationship between the siblings. However there is an incest patch that restores that content. I, generally speaking, don't get anything from step relations unless the atmosphere is done incredibly well.

I recently watched the Yuri, Shoujo-ai anime Citrus, in it a girl and her step sister fall for one another, and they play with the sister thing a bit. I didn't really feel it all that much however, because none of the people who needed to express that it was taboo actually did express that it was taboo. The mother and father of the girls didn't even know about it. One friend either was ignorant or feigned ignorance the whole way through, even though it was not hidden from her at all. The other girl's friend served as a romantic rival as well, however, so she did bring it up, but that arc ended and it wasn't an issue anymore. The taboo wasn't there because they didn't do it well.

That said, Eromanga Sensei and Kiss x Sis are good examples of incest romances between step-siblings that I think worked incredibly well. They played up the taboo and made it feel real. I could also say the same of Onegai Twins, in which one of them isn't actually his sister, but they don't find out which till the end, the taboo is still real. Air Gear is another good one, in which the MC isn't actually related to the girls he lives with, but they have a familial relationship from his childhood and these girls act as his sisters, so the taboo is there.

I know I'm talking about non ero projects here, but that's on purpose. It isn't the sex that is going to make you feel the taboo, it's the relationship between the characters. I get the same feelings of taboo with childhood friends as I do with incest when written properly. In fact, I just finished watching another yuri anime (I'm doing research for seraphim academy) and it only featured friends who had known one another since middle school now as first year high school students. The entire show is about the two of them exploring their cutesy girl love relationship, and it did a better job of creating a taboo air to it than some incest games do. Meanwhile, actual blood related incest games don't always get that taboo across well. I really like Sisterly Lust as a game, but I don't think it handles the taboo well. It seems unwilling to add that antagonistic worry to the game, though it has dipped its toes a few times and they sometimes talk about it being wrong, it too often makes light of the issue.

I have a lot of problems with Dating My Daughter, it's pacing is fucking horrible, the characters are inconsistent, and the romance is juvenile, but it does one thing right, creating an atmosphere for the taboo. The constant worry of both characters that their secret will get out is perfect. What matters in all incest isn't the blood relationship, its the fear of getting caught, it's the need to find a way to have this relationship without interference. Even if you want other characters to find out eventually, or join in, you need to make it clear that these characters need to be corrupted, and you need to convince me that they are.

I highlighted the relevant parts. I dare you to find three games that goes the "adopted route" and makes even a passing attempt to establish any kind of relationship between the characters other than a sexual one and an informed-only familial one. I'll even hand you the first example... The Last Sovereign. The MC has a young adult daughter who it's very quickly apparent he is not blood related to. But it spends most of the game (as of the most recent update) selling their father-daughter relationship perfectly. He's the doting father whose eyes twinkle with pride each time she proves her capability... she's the precocious daughter, apple of her fathers eye, who adores her father even on his worst days. And THEN, some 30 hours into the game, you get the first real hint that it might be possible to have an incestuous relationship with her... which, when it happens, still manages to scream tenderness on his side and adoration on hers. Hottest incest relationship EVER... even with only text. And, for me, it has nothing to do with the risk of getting caught. It has to do, purely, with the fact that I know for certain they are father and daughter.

As you say, most games that have blood relationship (and Dating My Daughter is actually a prime example) fail utterly to establish the familial relationship beyond saying some variant of "i screwed her mom and nine months later she was born" or "the same guy screwed our mom and nine mother later we were born". Any familiar relationship they have is purely of the "informed" variety. And I just don't find it very believable. But so long as everyone on the story is consistently _not_ saying "you're not blood related" then at least I have that much.

Sure, I'd love games that take time to build the characters familial relationships up for half the game before turning toward incest. But let's be realistic... The Last Sovereign is an exception that's only possible cause there is an entire harem of other characters to tide players over till you get to that point. If I had be playing it exclusively for the incest content (which, almost every game that goes the "your adopted" route is an incest focused game)... it would not have been a fun grind to get there. I can accept games like Dating My Daughter because even though I don't find their familial relationship at all believable it's still pretty naughty knowing that, at least genetically, they are father and daughter and they know it. But then you have these games that throw even that little bit out. And that's what I take issue with.

 

[slitherhence]

Grow up I was just pointing out the reason why devs cannot include incest content in their games anymore. If you already know why incest content is not allowed, why start this thread? View attachment 177687

Because incest content not being allowed on Pateron is entirely beside the point. I've already been very, very clear... both in the OP and directly in response to you... why I started this thread and what that point is. I've clearly explained why Patreon's rules are beside the point and given examples that prove it. I'm not going to keep spelling out to you over and over what this thread is about just for you to go right on ignoring what I'm saying. If you can't get on-topic, start a different thread. Stop trying to derail this one.

 

[おい！]

Because incest content not being allowed on Pateron is entirely beside the point. I've already been very, very clear... both in the OP and directly in response to you... why I started this thread and what that point is. I've clearly explained why Patreon's rules are beside the point and given examples that prove it. I'm not going to keep spelling out to you over and over what this thread is about just for you to go right on ignoring what I'm saying. If you can't get on-topic, start a different thread. Stop trying to derail this one.

A quote from your OP (It instantly stops being hot when I read the words "my step-sis" or "my adopted mom".) So in your own words did I ignore the OP? I do not need anything to be spelled out because I can read.

 

[slitherhence]

A quote from your OP (It instantly stops being hot when I read the words "my step-sis" or "my adopted mom".) So in your own words did I ignore the OP? I do not need anything to be spelled out because I can read.

Yes, you have ignored the op. As your quote proves, you have no idea what this thread is about.

 

[Volta]

Let's get something out of the way right off the bat. I'm adopted. This is not a dig at being adopted.

That said... if the characters in your game do not share a blood relation... then it's not incest. I don't care what the law says. I don't care if your adopted friend thinks it would still be weird to screw his mom. It's not incest. It's two people who have known each other since one of them was a child having sex with each other... nothing more.

Real talk now: there is one and only one meaningful way in which two people who are blood related is any more taboo than any other two people having sex: alleles. Incestuous sex, over enough generations, leads to birth defects and deformity because of the alleles being paired with identical alleles over and over causing what would otherwise insignificant and unnoticeable abnormalities to become a very noticeable deformities that cripple those burdened by them for life.

Frankly, I'm not actually opposed to incest. (Oh shit!? He actually said it! Oh shit!) Sure, go ahead and freak out. Whatever. I tend to think if two people are consenting and mature enough to understand the risks... have fun. But I'll admit the taboo nature of it is hot as fuck. And that's what games like this are for... living out those taboo fantasies you can't risk in real life.

It instantly stops being hot when I read the words "my step-sis" or "my adopted mom". It just loses all that extra appeal. And then what I'm left with, often enough, is poorly drawn/terribly rendered yet short scenes between mountains of RPG-esque grinding. No thanks. I can get vanilla porn on Pornhub in HD without the extra effort, butter faces, and ridiculous blimp tits (seriously, if you can hide three monkeys and a wallaby under her boobs and her never figure out where the screeching is coming from... they're too fucking big).

So please. Please please please. Next time you get the itch, right after introducing the characters as "my mom" and "my sis" and "my brother", you get the urge to have a scene where the MC finds out he/she is adopted... don't. Just fucking don't. For the love of hotness... don't.

+1 like for humorous wallaby mention, but in all seriousness the taboo is the point, not the inbreeding, on some level telling our little monkey brains we can't have something means we'll go to quite some lengths to get it. The same goes for a lot of taboo or fetish content, especially the mild stuff, cheating, girl next door, old and young, anal, exhibitionism, voyeur, teacher-student and bondage are all on some level taboo, taboo leads to secrecy and secrecy has a thrill of it's own, it adds to the naughtiness.

I'm not that worried by the need for blood relations, just because the child is adopted doesn't mean that functionally the adopters are not the child's parents, it's the relationship that matters not the blood. Two step siblings screwing around behind their parents backs is not that far behind blood incest in terms of interest, for me at least, it's still forbidden, naughty and taboo but in this case legal.

I understand it defeats the point of the game, for legal reasons i can see why some people would add the caveat of either "step" or "adopted" but i agree it shouldn't be used as an easy out. i wonder what your stance on half siblings and cousins would be rather than direct family, i also wonder if you have a thing for impregnation or not, if so and the whole taboo incest baby thing matters or not to you as part of the fetish?

TL : DR
I agree, the "step" and "adopted" clauses are used badly in a lot of cases and can be considered to be defeating the point of the game but a good game can always get away with this if they sufficiently sell the relationship between the characters, which at the end of the day comes down to the writing.

 

[gunderson]

I've been meaning to link this here one day. Seems like the right time:

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In brief, Dr. Klein's argument is that people who are uncomfortable with their own sexuality are also generally uncomfortable with sexuality in public at all, because they don't like being uncomfortable in public. I imagine that now applies to the Internet as well as a kind of 'public.' So those uncomfortable people sometimes actively try to censor sexuality for everybody so they never have to feel uncomfortable.

That means that Patreon's banning of incest content is a symptom of peoples' desire to keep from being uncomfortable about sexuality, even in the context of the porn they consume, rather than a cause of a supposedly new 'turn' against incest. Because as people, for example on Fenoxo's forum, have mentioned, it's generally a matter of people turning others in rather than Patreon going out of their way to find 'objectionable' content. Patreon doesn't have much incentive to ban or review content unless it actually offends people because it makes them money. So we can assume that there's a group of people, organized or not, maybe even some of the vocal anti-incest crowd on F95, who are helping ruin things for everybody because they just don't want incest to make them feel all icky or confused inside.

So please: don't just blame the greedy, cowardly corporations (though definitely do that too). Also blame the whiny lil' prudes who can't handle certain kinds of fictional sex being available to anyone, even if they're personally never forced to see it and have to actively seek it out themselves.

 

[desmosome]

Because incest content not being allowed on Pateron is entirely beside the point. I've already been very, very clear... both in the OP and directly in response to you... why I started this thread and what that point is. I've clearly explained why Patreon's rules are beside the point and given examples that prove it. I'm not going to keep spelling out to you over and over what this thread is about just for you to go right on ignoring what I'm saying. If you can't get on-topic, start a different thread. Stop trying to derail this one.

You don't seem to understand something. Patreon is not gonna personally go through each dev's page and check if they are following their rules. If enough people report it, it will get flagged and put under review. Their rules are very clear and if they take a closer look at your game, they will not even let anything slide. Even step incest is against their rules. The fact that some games can stay up with incest content means Patreon just didnt find out about it yet. All the links you posted never mention incest in their patreon page. Why do you think that is? They are just risking it and know full well Patreon can bring the hammer down at any time. Incest patch is a grey area, and Patreon is very much aware of it but it gives the devs plausible deniability I guess.

 

[Felicityskye]

Yeah this whole "Step-Sister" and "Roommate" is kinda ridiculous, but its because Nazi-Patreon bullies Devs out that don't do what they say. Thats why I fucking hope Patreon dies as soon as possible and people move to Steam.

Patreon won't die. It isn't just for amateur game devs.