To VN Devs : Have you considered creating an anthology-style adult VN? How difficult would it be?

[Only4You]

I think anthologies are great! They let the writer continue telling short but enjoyable stories with regular pay-offs in each episode. Recently I watched Netflix's "Love, Death and Robots" which is a bunch of short animated episodes bunched together. One of the reviews of this series said that "Not one minute felt wasted watching this series" - and that's exactly how I felt after watching the series as well. (Another good anthology - Black Mirror) Whereas many a good TV series become boring because of the "filler episodes" used to artificially increase their lengths - even though the story overall is not that bad. (One example would be The Punisher S2).

So, why do I think that an anthology-style adult VN is a good idea? Well, after playing a lot of VNs, I found that the problem with many of them is that they are prolonged unnecessarily (A problem, also common in TV series). While longer play-times are justified for some VNs (e.g. corruption themed games and some others, makes sense, these sort of stories focus on the build-up in addition to the pay-off), most of them seem to intentionally delay the climax, because once the story reaches that point, there would be nothing else to write/tell about. From a dev's perspective, he may also not want his source of income to dry up so early. So why not tell shorter and punchier stories and tell many of them, while keeping the theme same/similar. That way, you get Wing-Chun styled barrage of punches instead of traditional hooks and uppercuts.



A good example would be incest stories. Of course, it takes time to break through the natural inhibition against incest. But one of the short incest stories in Literotica.com devised an ingenuine way out of that problem - it is mentioned in retrospect that the son confessed his desire for his mom as a woman when he was 17, and the main story takes place when he is 25. So, they had a lot of time to think about it and contemplate its consequences. So, it doesn't feel unnatural when the mom finally makes a move on his son.

If you think that adult games are more than just raw sex, you would agree that what makes each game different is how you reach that point i.e. sex. And here lies the dilemma - if you want a good VN, often that leads to more build-up and less sex. Because sex is the climax - and the climax can only last so long. So, you end up breaking up the climax in short chunks - first groping, then handjob, then blowjob, then, etc. etc. But, we all know that in real life sex doesn't work that way most of the time. A mom wouldn't be giving her son a handjob if she wasn't sexually attracted to her son in the first place - and if she were, she probably wouldn't have any problem fucking him anyway. PTOLEMY seems to respect this fact, and in his VNs when the characters decide to go, the go all the way.

While there are stories that can have sex at regular intervals but don't run out of fuel, many plots don't work that way. So, as far as I see, anthologies are very good ways of telling such stories.

Another benefit of this approach is that each episode could potentially feature some different fetish so that if some group of players is uncomfortable with that sort of fetish, they would only dislike/ignore that particular episode, not the whole series.

The question is then - how hard is it? Well, I'm not a dev or a writer. So, I cannot fathom the practical issues of such an undertaking. Some potential issues that come to mind -

- Is it hard to write many short captivating stories instead of one long slower-paced story? I think it is - to some extent. But some writers feel more comfortable that way, and end up specializing in them.

- Would introducing a new setting and new characters each episode mean getting more resources/added design times? I see, in the worst case scenario, it could be like making a new game each episode? If it is the case, some character models could be reused and settings kept similar, only changing the story.

- The players won't know what to expect. So they wouldn't know whether to play/support the game? (This is the best I could come up with)

I must mention one thing, I'm not suggesting that anthologies could be a substitute for mainstream stories. I'm just suggesting that they could potentially add a new dimension to adult VNs.

 

[HopesGaming]

I mean, I could easily see it being done.
Some cons of the idea and why I think it is not being done;

- People like adult games because they build up a 'relationship' with a character. That's the alure with these kinds of games.
By making short stories it is not about the characters anymore. Since you, as a player, know that these characters are temporary people. They be gone quick anyways so the focus is on the story and fetishes.
This will in turn then feel like a normal porn video/comic or a one chapter hentai manga you read online.
The reason why it works in movies and series (like the one you mentioned) is that people are purely there for the story. The need for creating a relationship between the characters and the players is not there as it is not needed.

- Assets. Daz has tons of figures. And even if you went through the 100's of premade models you have morphs. You never run out of original characters. But the same things can not be said about the environment and setting. Daz is, unforutnalety, rather limited in that aspect. And I can easily see a dev have trouble after a couple of short stories. Especially if it varies a lot between different sci-fi or even fantasy. Worse if both.

- Creativity. This is low on the list as I believe that most devs do have enough skillsets to create several short stories. But then again- incest copy paste games we have seen tells another story.

 

[CarbonBlue]

From a storyteller's standpoint, writing several short stories is a lot of fun. I'm working my ass off on one game right now which might take me 8+ months to complete. But when I go to bed I have 2-3 more VN's swimming around my head. It would be pretty cool if I could devote 1-2 months to a short story.

It wouldn't be that difficult to do, but as you said, it would definitely use up some design resources. If you're paying for all your artwork like you should, then it's just outright expensive.

What's more, most of our funding comes from people sticking with us on Patreon. If I spend 8+ months on a VN that people like, then each update I'm likely to increase my funding. If I spend a month on a short story that my patrons don't like, then I lose that funding. More established creators may be able to minimize that effect.

But right now, anyways, the reason I'm doing a longer story is because that is what's in my head, waiting to get out. I've thought about doing a couple of short stories afterward and hope to give it a try.

 

[Only4You]

People like adult games because they build up a 'relationship' with a character. That's the alure with these kinds of games.
By making short stories it is not about the characters anymore. Since you, as a player, know that these characters are temporary people. They be gone quick anyways so the focus is on the story and fetishes.
This will in turn then feel like a normal porn video/comic or a one chapter hentai manga you read online.
The reason why it works in movies and series (like the one you mentioned) is that people are purely there for the story. The need for creating a relationship between the characters and the players is not there as it is not needed

Hard to argue with this logic. Character build-up is indeed more necessary for games than stories - and here an anthology will suffer from a handicap. But then, this sort of relationship matters most in first-person games - because, the player tries to identify with the MC. Maybe letting the player control aspects of the story rather than a single playable character could alleviate this problem to some extent? That way, the story gets more focus?

Most VNs don't seem to utilize all the humane aspects of an NPC. In short stories, what gets focus is the part of his/personality that directly relates to that story. In case of adult games - this could be his/her particular attachments/desires/fantasies/fetishes. I think some characteristics of a character can be implied (using clues/short scenes/flashbacks) when the span is shortened. The anthologies I mentioned used this implicit method of defining characters very effectively.

 

[SeventhVixen]

I thought about this method many times, shorts stories. Some characters doesn't need to be wasted as they can return many stories later. But it's not the way I make stories, I make long stories (not long games about grinding, but long stories).

But I think it would be really a method that could work for some devs that start and drop projects quite often. It's normal to have inspiration and start a project and drop it because that's just not gonna be a long story, it was just a whim.

Well, you can retrofit that energy in making short stories about the whim of the month, then package all together in a single game.

And why not, many devs could just take their abandoned projects, wrap them and ending, and release them as single anthology games.

But the same things can not be said about the environment and setting

Take the dust out the sketchup man! x'D

 

[DreamBig Games]

I think the biggest question here is: would players play and support short games? As others have said, in a short story, you would not have a lot of character build up, that moment of satisfaction when you finally fuck that MILF, or stuff like that. If more players would ask for something like that, then devs would make them.
But as it is right now, it easier for devs to make long stories, at a slower pace, because players play and pay for them, costs would be reduced ( lower amount of characters, environments, clothing, etc).

 

[anne O'nymous]

By making short stories it is not about the characters anymore. Since you, as a player, know that these characters are temporary people.

Counter-proposal: it's short stories, but of the same MC at different period of his life.
It solve this problem, but also the asset one, since it's less a problem if the same location appear again and again.

 

[DreamBig Games]

Counter-proposal: it's short stories, but of the same MC at different period of his life.
It solve this problem, but also the asset one, since it's less a problem if the same location appear again and again.

What is a short story? Word and Image count? How much playtime, in minutes ( with actually spending time to read the text) before you pop the cherry?

 

[anne O'nymous]

What is a short story?

Read OP, then you'll have the answer to your question...

 

[DreamBig Games]

Read OP, then you'll have the answer to your question...

There are no hard numbers in the OP, or I might be blind ). But when I've asked what is a short story, I am actually asking what makes a story a short one? In science fiction, a short story, for example, is something that I can read in less than 15 minutes... IF the same is true for short VN's, then I don't think a short VN like that would be of any interest to anyone...

 

[anne O'nymous]

There are no hard numbers in the OP, or I might be blind ).

Because it's absolutely not a question of numbers, whatever in a book, a movie/TV series, or a game. "Short story" is a narrative genre, as well as saga, novel, and so on. As defined by

You must be registered to see the links

, a short story is : "an invented prose narrative shorter than a novel usually dealing with a few characters and aiming at unity of effect and often concentrating on the creation of mood rather than plot."
There's few adult games that already can qualify as "short stories", like by example Date Ariane. It need more than one hour to be effectively completed, but still resolve around the sole intent to put Ariane in the right mood and so end fucking her ; which will need more than a single date.

Reported to my counter-proposal to HopesGaming observations, the first short story can be MC's first time. It would looks more or less like Date Ariane, but instead of charming the girl, it would be more a fight against her fear. So, applied to few dates, slowly going further in the intercourse, until the MC will finally loose his virginity... and then the story end.
Then, the second story can be this time when a cougar neighbor ask him to mow the lawn, with the intent to have him in her bed before the end of the afternoon. This chapter presenting the moment when the MC discover that sex is more than just going in and out of a vagina. Another story can present the time he put a foot in perversion for the first time, encountering a submissive girl. Then it can be, by example, followed by his journey in the discovering of BDSM.
All this resolving around a single step and a single girl ; well, not necessarily a single, on chapter can be his first threesome or his first orgy. But it not necessarily revolve around a single sex scene. The cougar neighbor can be really hungry for sex and they can pass the whole afternoon having sex all around the house by example. This while the submissive girl would slowly introduce him to the role of dominant and so this story will resolve around many nights until the moment the MC finally fully take charge by himself.

 

[obsessionau]

I think an anthology of short stories needs to be more text based rather than written like a traditional VN simply because of the style of communication needed for a short story and difficulty of doing this cheaply/quickly and effectively with assets.

A simple modification to the RenPy layout such as the left side of the screen being a couple of paragraphs of text and the right side for visuals could possibly be a workable layout. Either that or even using Twine.

Chloe18 is one VN I can think of that is doing an anthology thing... Cloe18, Chloe18 Vaction, Chloe18 CamGirl, Chloe18 Backtoclass. There are others that effectively do the same thing but as "Chapters".

 

[DreamBig Games]

Because it's absolutely not a question of numbers, whatever in a book, a movie/TV series, or a game. "Short story" is a narrative genre, as well as saga, novel, and so on. As defined by

You must be registered to see the links

, a short story is : "an invented prose narrative shorter than a novel usually dealing with a few characters and aiming at unity of effect and often concentrating on the creation of mood rather than plot."
There's few adult games that already can qualify as "short stories", like by example Date Ariane. It need more than one hour to be effectively completed, but still resolve around the sole intent to put Ariane in the right mood and so end fucking her ; which will need more than a single date.

Reported to my counter-proposal to HopesGaming observations, the first short story can be MC's first time. It would looks more or less like Date Ariane, but instead of charming the girl, it would be more a fight against her fear. So, applied to few dates, slowly going further in the intercourse, until the MC will finally loose his virginity... and then the story end.
Then, the second story can be this time when a cougar neighbor ask him to mow the lawn, with the intent to have him in her bed before the end of the afternoon. This chapter presenting the moment when the MC discover that sex is more than just going in and out of a vagina. Another story can present the time he put a foot in perversion for the first time, encountering a submissive girl. Then it can be, by example, followed by his journey in the discovering of BDSM.
All this resolving around a single step and a single girl ; well, not necessarily a single, on chapter can be his first threesome or his first orgy. But it not necessarily revolve around a single sex scene. The cougar neighbor can be really hungry for sex and they can pass the whole afternoon having sex all around the house by example. This while the submissive girl would slowly introduce him to the role of dominant and so this story will resolve around many nights until the moment the MC finally fully take charge by himself.

Thanks for clarifications.

But to be more precise, and to be able to think if/why Short VN games are feasible from a financial support standpoint, for me at least ( coder background, so numbers are very important) I need numbers. And I am going to explain why:

-If creating his first sexual experience requires around 100 images, and this brings in around 200 $, then it's something that can work. But if it requires around 500 images, and it fails to bring in around 500 $, then the artist will not have paid even for his assets and the electrical bill to render those images.
-If you change from a girlfriend experience ( nice little girl that you somehow corrupt into sex) to a MILF that will corrupt the MC ( so the opposite of first game) will you lose some of the backers/ income that you have gathered over the 2-3 months ( just random numbers for the time it takes to complete the first game)? And if so, would that affect your game finances in a major way?

And now, I will explain why I have mentioned money so much: I have started my game while I was working a regular job, 12 hours/ 5 days per week. I have done that for 8 months and my game was around 400 images, with around 20% game mechanics done. After that, when my game went into Early Acces on Steam, I got my first sales ( until then I had a Patreon, but that did not work so well, I was getting under 50$/ month and I was pledging 30$ to other creators ) ) and with those sales I was able to quit my day job, and work full time on my game. This allowed me to finish my game in another 4 months.
Now, you could say: but people are not doing this for money, they do it from passion and you are right, passion is the most important factor, but passion doesn't pay bills, and coming home after a rough day, trying to solve that bug that fucks up your GUI, will be the last thing you want to do. This is why I believe finances are very important, as having an income source from developing games, will allow you to actually make real progress on the project, and also make you push harder, as that is your job after all, and you don't want to lose your dream job.

I hope all this makes some sense.

 

[anne O'nymous]

-If creating his first sexual experience requires around 100 images, and this brings in around 200 $, then it's something that can work. But if it requires around 500 images, and it fails to bring in around 500 $, then the artist will not have paid even for his assets and the electrical bill to render those images.

If I had thought like this when I was freelancer, I would never have been successful. It's not always about the money you'll directly get. More than once, I accepted jobs that weren't worth it ; too few bucks for too much works. But most of the time it wasn't time lost, because the same society came back, and now that they knew what I was capable of, they accepted my conditions and price.
The same obviously apply for indie devs. Few succeed at first, they need to establish themselves before it start really paying. Especially for a funding plan like Patreon. You must accept that you'll start loosing time and money, if you want to end earning enough to live, or at least to pay correctly your time. And you must accept that this will perhaps apply to each one of your games.

-If you change from a girlfriend experience ( nice little girl that you somehow corrupt into sex) to a MILF that will corrupt the MC ( so the opposite of first game) will you lose some of the backers/ income that you have gathered over the 2-3 months ( just random numbers for the time it takes to complete the first game)?

The number of time needed to complete the first game is unknown, but the number of time needed before switching from the girlfriend experience to the cougar encounter is one. It's an anthology, each update add a new, independent (Hope's approach) or not (mine), story. And if people remove their pledge after the second update, then it's "your" fault ; you failed to explain that your game will be an anthology and tell different stories.

I hope all this makes some sense.

It make, but honestly, and without bad intent, I see it as the wrong move.
I've been freelance coder/admin for more than ten years, stopping only because I needed to be more social after my wife's death, so I know how income can drastically vary. You should plan your expense according to what you already have, and not according to what you expect to earn ; which obviously mean that at first you need to use your own money.
You complained about coming back from your job and feeling like a constraint the fact to works on your game. Will you be able to continue working on it, when the constraint will be that the sales don't provide you anymore enough to live, and so you really need to finish as soon as possible ?
I hope you'll succeed, but I'll never recommend to quit your job before you've at least two or three games on sale, or a solid funding over Patreon. Else... well it end where you actually are, placing money before the passion ; creating the game because you need to live, and not because you want to write this story, whatever because you love the idea or as a challenge.

 

[recreation]

To VN Devs : Have you considered creating an anthology-style adult VN?

Yes^^

 

[DreamBig Games]

I hope you'll succeed, but I'll never recommend quitting your job before you've at least two or three games on sale, or a solid funding over Patreon. Else... well it end where you actually are, placing money before the passion; creating the game because you need to live, and not because you want to write this story, whatever because you love the idea or as a challenge.

Actually, at this point in time, my game sales allow me to work on games full time. The first one sold enough that now I can afford a couple of months with no income ( but the income still comes in ). However, if I was to actually work non stop on the game and day job, I would have probably been burned out by now, and I think there are a lot of good projects that have been abandoned because of this reason.
And to be fair, I think most devs don't create games because they need to live, most coders at least can get better-paid jobs with their skills, or if they freelance they can make a living with their skills too. But, if you do start working on a game, I would recommend everyone to spend a couple of months, 2-3 months while still holding a day job, and then, once they have a couple of test builds, a workframe setup, go all in. And yes, I also say that they should think seriously if this is a job, or a hobby ( from what I can see, 90% of the games that have been finished are made by people who took game developing as a full-time job). Expecting to make a living out of it it's fine and feasible, I just don't see anyone spending 60 hours/ week and not learn and be able to do at least a simple RenPy game and at least decent renders.

And, to get back on track, while I think making smaller/ shorter games is less time and effort consuming ( especially with RenPy or Unity off the shelf frameworks ), I'm not sure about the complications one would get from changing game themes like that. And while you say that if patrons would leave it's only the devs fault for not explaining that his game is something different, well, just have a read in every game thread and you will see how many bad "bad reviews" and backlash the devs get because of simpler things. I'm not convinced a lot of people would play games like that. But, maybe I'm, wrong, and I would like to see games like that. After all, the more the better for us all; more games, more exposure, more acceptance, and less stigma.

 

[Only4You]

Yes^^

I'd love to know about what you thought of. Any hints?

 

[Antiochus]

I've been making a good living from my day career for several decades, it is unlikely I will replace it with this. I do this mainly as an interesting hobby right now.

My VN first episode is almost done, and I have learned a lot of new and interesting things in the process. Not expecting it to make back the costs, but all hobbies have an intrinsic startup cost. The VN is similar in concept to what is proposed in this thread. A series of linked threaded episodic acts involving multiple MC and NPC with a single main arc throughout. Probably be too ambitious but we will see how it plays out.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Johnny Silverhand
Although I lack the means to make a VN, I have most definitely thought that an anthology VN where each update is a different story could be really good. In fact, I've even conceptualised one and come up with the synopses for about 9 "chapters". Still to write any of them fully but I've been designing what the characters would look like in the hopes someone else can make it one day.

If anyone is interested in knowing what I have so far, PM me.