Ren'Py Using Integers vs Flags

[DarthSeduction]

So, I'm writing my first novel, mostly because I find many of the ones I've played to be lacking in depth. That said, I'm new to coding, I learned a little C++ in high school, but that is now over a decade old, and I understand a only a little bit about python (which I already like more than C++). My main questions as the Title suggests, is what do you guys in the community think of integer based affection tracking vs using simple flags and if statements to determine if relationship content becomes available?

I know for my part, that I find affection tracking systems to be grindy, they kinda take me out of the game, relationships are far too complicated for a basic point system. The system in DMD seems to have been the best I've played with thus far, but it creates an environment wherein every move has to be completely perfect in order to advance at pace. Also, I don't want the sexual content in this game to be the end, I want it to explore the relationships with more depth. Is it just sex, are we dating, are we in a closed or open relationship, what does that mean.

In my experience most games that use points fail here, DMD, changes the entire dynamic from being a blossoming romance between two people who shouldn't have those feelings into one where a father is taking advantage of the sexual confusion he's creating in his daughter. When I play it I feel obliged to decline the advances of any other characters. But that's not to say that games with flags are that much better.

Almost every other Ren'py game I've played seems to have their characters behave according to flags, however those flags are incredibly simplistic and simply serve to make the game about reaching the end so you can finally have a reason to cum. I don't know if that's simply the business tactic of the developers or shoddy storytelling. My favorite among them is probably one of the earliest I played, SisterSisterSister. Each event happens along a mostly linear path, sure you get to choose one kink over another or to interrupt a scene, but with all these binary choices you end up running through it and going back to get the ideal outcome.

So there, I think we have reached the root of my problem. Too much of the scripting by other developers is Binary. Do you do the exact right thing to get this scene? no? then fuck you. Yes, then good for you, here's a cookie, keep playing if you want more. DMD did have other choices, but if you glance at a walkthrough you see pretty quickly which choices had points attributed, which took away points and which were just filler. You still had to follow a very fixed path, and because of DMD's inherent time constraint of the 2 week period, there was no room to make up for missed points.

My story, as I'm only just getting started, contains only 2 scenes so far, the intro, which is very different from other games I've played, and sets up the story. It has no choices. But the moment I start adding menus to my second scene, I've found I'm already in a huge back and forth trying to add in new and interesting choices that each open different paths and also allowing, as the conversation passes, old flags to be tripped again. Needless to say, this is tedious work. I wonder, would it be wiser to create a hidden integer system and make my choices more varied in order to simulate more player control, or do I stick with flags for their more immediate effects. If I stick with flags, is there a way to make the constant checks less of a chore, both for me and the player, or is it going to make flags just as much of a grind as points, or worse, really hamfisted in trying to keep them open?

 

[baka]

you should use both, flags for key events and integer for emotional states that can both increase and decrease.

 

[DarthSeduction]

you should use both, flags for key events and integer for emotional states that can both increase and decrease.

Obviously I'll still be using flags, they're hard to avoid. As for the emotional states, I think that's what I'm trying to avoid. To put it simply, I feel like that becomes a game that forces you into constantly trying to trick your way into other characters pants. Without going into too much detail, aside from my 2 protagonists and one other character, every character in my script is going to start out default interested in the proposition of sex. Some might be shy, and at least for now I don't plan on any characters that go all the way the first time, but at no point will the game be about coercing other characters into sex. Essentially I want to avoid the ever persistent "White Knight" element of most VN. Sex isn't something 1 person earns. Its a decision made by both parties and both parties are active participants in it.

Because of this, emotional states could just as easily be tracked via flags, as the events that trigger the emotional state have to simply either wear off, or be addressed. If the event that triggers a character to not be willing to have sex with you is about something you did, then you're going to have to work to be forgiven, and then you might still have lost any chance. Emotional points at that point become ridiculous, if you ask me.

 

[Palanto]

You think most do it this simple because they can't tell a better story? I think most do it the simple way because it's not possible to create too many routes when you're working alone... Not because of the story writing or programming, no because of the rendering and posing and lighting and rerendering because a nipple slipped through the clothes when it wasn't supposed to and so on and so on
Most people try to sell their game OR better said try to get some money in "while" producing the game, via patreon and so on. This gives them a lot of pressure, the patrons want to see updates at least once a month! Well now think of it that way: Your intro has no choices, but in your first scene you create 10 choices with 10 differing outcomes creating 10 different rendering routes making it at least 1 render per choices which would end up hundreds of renders for a good small first scene at least if you want to create GOOD quality renders and not those shitty backgrounds with sprites renderings.

So it's more a question of time and teamsize.

So if you're starting out, don't do too many routes right off the bat, you want to create some later on, if they merge back into a relatively linear story it's alright to do some more but don't do too many I'm going to post you some screenshots of a twinefile which shows our chapter 4 of wicked choices... just to show you what crazy work it can become to create many routes and differing renderings in a single release...



This "little" bit you see there is our whole chapter 4, it contains 164 Full scene renderings, more than 22000 words and took the writer and artist @ASLPro3D almost the whole last month!

I'm still working on the Code of it... So don't think it's so easy to do all that alone You're going to fall flat on your nose if you do

 

[Palanto]

You're right though, the points are good to check if a character gathered enough interest from the other participant. And flags are for you to lock some possible routes if someone made a false decision or anything like you mentioned. You can unlock it later on if you want but that's your decision. So the points are just the current interest. And the flags are for you to lock or unlock characters possible reactions to you trying to lay them.... Well like your example, you made some wrong moves with someone, you then lock the progression for this character and reduce some points for if you want to reactivate the person later for whatever reasons

 

[DarthSeduction]

@Palanto,

You're right, I apologise if I made it sound like I was talking down to people. I don't plan on doing this completely alone either, I'm not well versed in any sort of digital art, and my physical drawing skills are mediocre at best. I also think I may have been too vague. My Novel is planned to be more linear, in some ways, than many of the games I've played. To take this away from VN, lets look at sandbox games. Skyrim and Fallout are often considered the best, because there's just so much to do. However, they're lacking the most critical element, in my opinion, of gaming. That's story. Even a game like Witcher 3, which for a AAA title had a great story, fails to be engaging, because the grind becomes the more important point.

I want to avoid making a game about grinding. If I have to release my stories in branches, following progression with one character at a time and returning to another character later, I will. But I want to make it engaging. That's, and the White Knight element behind most integer systems, is what makes me opposed to them. Anyways, thanks for your perspective. It has made me think, at least a little.

 

[Palanto]

Well I don't know if you tried our game yet, but it is pretty linear except for some parts (well chapter 4 will have definitely more branches then all the last chapters together) and has a main background story. It's that way because @ASLPro3D didn't have the knowledge (programming wise) to do it differently. So he wrote it mostly like a kinetic novel but always had in mind that he wanted to hire a programmer so he created some branches and there'll be "some" point grinding later on. BUT it won't be like in the other games where you're going through the same "events" over and over again to get those points. There will be choices that give you points with one char and reduce some with another and so on, so you won't really "feel" the grind like you explained. It's more like in the background depending on your choices and how you treat the people around you.

So if you want, just take our game apart and check out the parts we've done so far (no it's not a masterpiece sorry I haven't programmed in python or used ren'py before and had to jump in last minute before the last chapters release)

You can find the game down in my signature if you click on the red F95.

I'm combining a point system with flags, the point system isn't like a grinding game system but more for some special scenes, or some different sentences said by another person, like let's say you have several girls you interacted with, and you're then thinking about the girl you like the most, it will check which girl has the highest "romance points" and give out her "name" so that I could replace it inside the Text (Just a really small example). The flags are the more important thing in our case, they set everything in motion or stop it. Depending on what your decisions were you can lock or unlock some fetishes, you can block a whole girls romantic route and so on.

So those point systems don't "always" have to be used just for grinding reasons, they can complement the other systems you implemented.




p.S.: Maybe I sounded a bit too harsh there in the beginning, didn't mean it like that though

 

[DarthSeduction]

Thanks for the reply again, and I might take you up on peeking behind the curtain at your code. I hadn't thought of many examples, but you make a good point, in fact your example is exactly the right way to use the system, not a grind in the normal sense, but a check that makes your decisions honest to the previous choices. I like that.

 

[Palanto]

Don't get too excited yet We haven't yet implemented all the stuff to do much of a check yet Since I'm just aboard for about a month now But that's what we're aiming at and how I plan to use the points system

But some parts are already in there So feel free to check it out and maybe use it for yourself or even better build something new out of it

 

[anne O'nymous]

I know for my part, that I find affection tracking systems to be grindy, they kinda take me out of the game, relationships are far too complicated for a basic point system. The system in DMD seems to have been the best I've played with thus far, but it creates an environment wherein every move has to be completely perfect in order to advance at pace. Also, I don't want the sexual content in this game to be the end, I want it to explore the relationships with more depth. Is it just sex, are we dating, are we in a closed or open relationship, what does that mean.

@Palanto Games answer explain most of this. The tracking system tend to be grindy because of the CG. So most of the time the coder just rely on one value which summarize everything. But you can do it manually. I mean you can have something like "lust", "love", "fear", "trust", and so on, and also a virtual "affection" value which is computed in real time based on them. Doing this you'll understand why most games rely on a single value... It's not this easy to code because each value should be weighted differently depending of the situation, each other values and the character personality. A nymphomaniac will agree to have sex with MC even with a average "lust" and whatever her low "fear" or "trust" are, but disagree to go on a date with him unless it have a high "love" value. In the opposite, a prude character will need a high "trust" and "love" to agree on both.
In the same time, a flags only system will have the same flaw and, for me, they are what can take me out of a game. Just because they are even more simplistic, to my eyes obviously, each one have it's own taste. It's not because, by example, I gave her flowers, than she'll agree to go on a date with the MC who humiliated her a lot previously during the game. So, to be realistic a game with flag should have a ton of "if" conditions behind each decision.

So in the end, what you should do is not ask for the best system, but make the game the way you find it more realistic regarding to your own taste and what you plan to do. Because I can pass two/three days and come back with a more realistic point system that you'll find crazy and so realistic... But that you will not use because being realistic in this kind of games is simply impossible unless you've 10 peoples to do the CG, at least one coder with a strong background, and a genius writer to write dialog lines according to each single possibilities.
I mean, a character will not answer in the same way if it comply to your order because of fear, than it will do if it comply because of love, and it will react still differently if it react because of lust. And this reaction will not be the same if the character is nymphomaniac or prude. A nymphomaniac full of lust will be in a normal state, while a prude one in the same situation will be confused and it should be reflected in the game ; it's something completely new for this character, it shouldn't understand what is happening neither what it really want.
Reflecting this only on the CG or the dialog will make your game look cheap. It must be reflected in both to achieve something which comply with your level of exigence regarding the points tracker.

So yes, in the end just do it the way you find the best, and if you're good at it, whatever it's a point tracking system or a flag based system, the public will be here.

 

[baka]

now with OP's explanation (after my post), i would go with flags only.
why? doing a linear game means just a few choices, and those choices often are important key-events.
no need to have a integer.
but as a programmer, i don't reason like this, its not flags vs integer, i use whatever i need without feelings bad about it.
integer gives you more options, you could have 0=not occurred, 1=choice no, 2=choice yes, 3=choice maybe
in the end, the most important aspect is motivation and hard work. to make a game takes time, a lot, its not that simple. that is why we get so many abandoned projects and projects we never see the light of, because people don't release it. flags or integer? use whatever. if you get stuck, theres a lot of programmers and game makers here to ask for help.

 

[Cyan]

I mean you can have something like "lust", "love", "fear", "trust", and so on, and also a virtual "affection" value which is computed in real time based on them. Doing this you'll understand why most games rely on a single value... It's not this easy to code because each value should be weighted differently depending of the situation, each other values and the character personality. A nymphomaniac will agree to have sex with MC even with a average "lust" and whatever her low "fear" or "trust" are, but disagree to go on a date with him unless it have a high "love" value. In the opposite, a prude character will need a high "trust" and "love" to agree on both.
In the same time, a flags only system will have the same flaw and, for me, they are what can take me out of a game. Just because they are even more simplistic, to my eyes obviously, each one have it's own taste. It's not because, by example, I gave her flowers, than she'll agree to go on a date with the MC who humiliated her a lot previously during the game. So, to be realistic a game with flag should have a ton of "if" conditions behind each decision.

Completely agree, but you should use those 'if's as flags.

now with OP's explanation (after my post), i would go with flags only.
why? doing a linear game means just a few choices, and those choices often are important key-events.
no need to have a integer.
but as a programmer, i don't reason like this, its not flags vs integer, i use whatever i need without feelings bad about it.
integer gives you more options, you could have 0=not occurred, 1=choice no, 2=choice yes, 3=choice maybe
in the end, the most important aspect is motivation and hard work. to make a game takes time, a lot, its not that simple. that is why we get so many abandoned projects and projects we never see the light of, because people don't release it. flags or integer? use whatever. if you get stuck, theres a lot of programmers and game makers here to ask for help.

If you look at the psychology behind the interactions of two people, some events stick out in the mind more (flags) whereas the typical day-to-day interaction could be expressed as an integer.

If you're a complete ass to someone for ages (meaning a low/negative based integer on an 'approval' scale), simply giving them a flower won't negate you being a complete ass to them for so long. The opposite may not be true, being completely nice to someone as a trend (high integer on the 'approval' scale), and then having a singular instance of doing/saying something completely cruel and hurtful (negative flag of some kind) may make that a sticking point, but maybe not a game changer in terms of overall like/love/trust/approval; it really depends on how egregious that singular event was. (You may be able to apologize and move past that point, for example)

So I probably wouldn't use a complete flag based system unless your game is entirely filled with story and major events going on. Horses for courses, I guess.

 

[anne O'nymous]

If you're a complete ass to someone for ages (meaning a low/negative based integer on an 'approval' scale), simply giving them a flower won't negate you being a complete ass to them for so long. The opposite may not be true, being completely nice to someone as a trend (high integer on the 'approval' scale), and then having a singular instance of doing/saying something completely cruel and hurtful (negative flag of some kind) may make that a sticking point, but maybe not a game changer in terms of overall like/love/trust/approval; it really depends on how egregious that singular event was. (You may be able to apologize and move past that point, for example)

And that's why in the end games tend to have a single value, sometimes two (love/lust), and in the same time some flags. It's not impossible to have more realistic relationship, but even AAA games don't do it, this despite the amount of people behind them.

 

[DarthSeduction]

And that's why in the end games tend to have a single value, sometimes two (love/lust), and in the same time some flags. It's not impossible to have more realistic relationship, but even AAA games don't do it, this despite the amount of people behind them.

I mean, in my experience most games that need more than Love/Lust have it already. It's not like those games are leaving out Domination or something because they don't want to code it. Its more that it's not the kink the game is providing. Or they'll provide it, but only with one character, as the designer of Man of the House did. To be honest, even though his design made the acquisition of these points a matter of grinding, making sure to get chores in the morning after complimenting mom, then making your older sister do those chores, then taking the compliment from mom at dinner, along with punishment and rewards. It became tedious, a game about amassing points rather than about advancing a plot and fostering a relationship.

I see a value in points, the way they appear to work in DMD. DMD doesn't seem to realize their potential though, as there is rarely a reward inherent in losing points that offsets the loss. For instance, imagine you're with a character and you have an option that saying will definitely lose you love points. Now, you're not going to choose that if you are interested in advancing the plot, unless... that choice gives you something of equal value. Essentially it would be a branch. So, sure, you sacrifice some love, but now she's an exhibitionist. There are some choices like that in DMD, but the overwhelming majority of negative responses just lead to game over states or not having enough points to advance your relationship later.

I get what you're saying in relation to only having a few point values being grindy because there's no option without them, but having multiple point values can be just as grindy if the options aren't flexible and leading to interesting outcomes. Thanks everyone that's replied, especially @Palanto Games, wicked desires was worth the play, I haven't looked at the code because i ended up sleeping all day, but I'll get to it soon. I realise that I approached this problem from the wrong perspective and you have all enlightened me to ways to make the points matter without making them something you grind for.
@Palanto Games

 

[anne O'nymous]

It became tedious, a game about amassing points rather than about advancing a plot and fostering a relationship

But it have nothing to do with the points system. It's how it feel, yes, but the reality behind is more a lack of writing skills. You take

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as example. As far as I remember, there isn't even CG for sis doing the chore. So the author can't blame the time needed to construct then render a scene. He just don't have enough imagination to add more variety and make his game don't look like a points hunting game.
You can say the same for a game like

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, which is rendered in real time, so isn't limited by the rendering. It have a better evolution system, but use the same dialog lines every time. So yes, by example, you start by just massaging mom's shoulder and, going further step by step, you'll end fucking her. But all the effect is messed because even after you've done it multiple time with her, in all the rooms and even shared her with other girls, she still serve you the same, "but what are you doing ? It's bad" (not the real line), dialog than the first time.

I see a value in points, the way they appear to work in DMD. DMD doesn't seem to realize their potential though, as there is rarely a reward inherent in losing points that offsets the loss.

They see it, but the idea came really late in chapter one. They changed few things in the start of the chapter, but were limited by the story already wrote. One game which do it better is

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. Here there's time when you need to loose some points. Some times there's no more reward than advancing in the story, some other there's a biggest amount of points as reward. In the end, it's a better depiction of a real relationship. You don't pass your time trying to seduce at all cost, you're just you and what you do isn't always well perceived by your "crush" (well, technically none of them are one), or you've hard time understanding each other, but finally solve it by talking some more.
There's also

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. It's a really small game (less than 1 hour of play, but you enjoy it) which don't go really far with its point system but make a good use of it.


So basically speaking, it's not the system you use which matter, but the way you use it. If you don't have the writing skills to weight your story according to the point's value, a couple, counter + flag, can do the same ; like for Man of the House, count the number of chores done by sis, then raise the flag after the right amount. But if you aren't this bad at writing, you can do beautiful things.

 

[baka]

i say it again, its not integer vs flags, you use what you need to create whatever you want to make.
no matter how smart you are with numbers and complex algorithms, if you suck with the story or rendering, then the end result will be bad. the importance is the "whole" perspective and have a good overview what the game is about and what you want the user to do and experience. theres no right or wrong, just good or bad game experience.
we can discuss forever what system is the best, but who cares? in the end what we want is a game that is enjoyable.
so, use flags, integer, matrix, algorithms and whatnot, if you need them and focus on the game itself, the ideas, plots, routes, rendering, characters etc.

 

[DarthSeduction]

i say it again, its not integer vs flags, you use what you need to create whatever you want to make.
no matter how smart you are with numbers and complex algorithms, if you suck with the story or rendering, then the end result will be bad. the importance is the "whole" perspective and have a good overview what the game is about and what you want the user to do and experience. theres no right or wrong, just good or bad game experience.
we can discuss forever what system is the best, but who cares? in the end what we want is a game that is enjoyable.
so, use flags, integer, matrix, algorithms and whatnot, if you need them and focus on the game itself, the ideas, plots, routes, rendering, characters etc.

I don't say this to be insulting, more as a critique, but what you're saying here is meaningless. I don't think you intend to be, but the way you brush off the question as if it doesn't matter and then talk about overall quality makes what you have to say rather insulting. As a player, what you're saying could be true, that you don't care about the nuts and bolts, but obviously the nuts and bolts do matter, they are what brings together the whole. If I were worried about my story skills or my renders, I'd be asking about them. I didn't. I came to ask a question about a feature of the coding process that I, at first, thought little of. The people who actually came with answers to my question opened my eyes, but you simply dismissed it as silly.

In the future, try to be constructive when you post. If you don't have something constructive to add then don't post. Make sure when you do post you bring something of value to the conversation. And by all means, don't trivialize someones request for information.

 

[baka]

so this is what i get for trying to help you? just because the answer dont suits you?
you says you dont have much experience? guest what, i have, have been doing programs for decades.
the reason of my posts is to widen your perspective, as you seems to think you one of the above is right or better. no, dismiss that, and focus on the importance, thats my answer, but you cant take that as criticism instead of personal attack. well guest what? its you not me, also, theres no game to show so how can i say anything about your render skills or story? no, the question is about integer and flags and nothing else and my answer is that you should use whatever and focus on the game, if you can't take it, its your problem not mine, dont put it on me.

 

[DarthSeduction]

so this is what i get for trying to help you? just because the answer dont suits you?
you says you dont have much experience? guest what, i have, have been doing programs for decades.
the reason of my posts is to widen your perspective, as you seems to think you one of the above is right or better. no, dismiss that, and focus on the importance, thats my answer, but you cant take that as criticism instead of personal attack. well guest what? its you not me, also, theres no game to show so how can i say anything about your render skills or story? no, the question is about integer and flags and nothing else and my answer is that you should use whatever and focus on the game, if you can't take it, its your problem not mine, dont put it on me.

Bare hostility and still no substance. You completely missed the point of my criticism and instead reacted negatively to having been criticized. You are the one who suggested I should worry about the whole, make sure I have a good story and renders. I didn't bring them up. YOU DID. So when I addressed that in my criticism I brought them up only to say that they have nothing to do with the question. The question you continue to dismiss. This is your failing. Yes I'm inexperienced, so when I ask a question what I look for is a coherent answer and explanation. Look to the other people in the thread, examples, reasoning, understanding. From you, starting from your first one sentence post, you were dismissive. Your second post, I don't say this with malice or any intent to harm your ego, but either there's an english error on your part, or you don't understand the integers. And finally there's the post that set me off, once again dismissive, haughty, and superior.

Maybe that's the reason you came here. To be superior, to talk down to me. Well, do you feel better because you have experience I don't? Does it make you feel big? Are you special now? Feel free to dislike me from now on. That's absolutely your right. But I'm done with your abusive attitude, so please do me the courtesy of ignoring me next time I ask for advice.

 

[anne O'nymous]

well guest what? its you not me, [...]

Basically, you said the same things than anyone who answered his question. But while others explained their positions, trying to make him think about their own point of view, you just goes and put your answer like it was an indisputable fact.
This is disturbing because if my own coding experience taught me something, it's surely that there isn't any indisputable facts in this field. What was true when I learned to program, more than three decade ago, is mostly wrong now. There's paradigms, and even languages, entirely made around massive use of flags/semaphores, while there's ones where using flags is banned and seen as a lack of understanding of what you want to do.
Visual novels tend to resolve around flags, while other don't even use a single one of them, relying on branching only ; the last option is even the one promoted by Ren'py's author. But there's also pure visual novel which use representing values (what he called "integer"), like

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by example.

By the way, you missed the point and/or don't understood his question. Yes, he talked about "integers versus flags", but the question was clearly a "representing values versus semaphores". So when you said that integers can give him more options, for him you were just saying that semaphores are better than semaphores.
They are better than flags... But, when used outside of multi threading, for a lot of people, including well knew coders, they are just a special kind of flags. They don't represent a value, but a multi state flag. Then, when talking about visual novel, most of the time both "flag" and "semaphore" are interchangeable words.

In the end, you answered a question, but it wasn't the question asked here. And don't start to blame him because of his misleading question. You are the own which "have been doing programs for decades", so you are the one who should adapt to people without experience ; lowering to both their level of knowledge and nontechnical speaking.
He isn't a coworker asking how he must wrote it's own part of the code, he's a trainee without any knowledge of practical programming. You can't answer to the later like you would have done to the first one.

no, the question is about integer and flags and nothing else and my answer is that you should use whatever and focus on the game, if you can't take it, its your problem not mine, dont put it on me.

Once again, it was the answer made by the others, and he take it, asked about it and, according to him, learned some things. So perhaps he isn't this wrong on his saying.