Visa says they weren't the ones who blocked Fantia, DLsite, etc.

[morphnet]

Once again, my answer here is the 2 Billions fine against Facebook for 2023, and the 13 Billions one they face for this year. Not only the EU can perfectly fight against Facebook, but they also succeed at doing it.
If Pornhub seem to be the main target while Facebook seem to be leaved in peace, it's because the news talk about the not cooperative MindGeek way more than the cooperative Meta. By example,

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.

The EU is not the one placing demands on Pixiv, Fantai, patreon etc. and they are not fining facebook for porn or illegal porn.

1. Find a girl;
2. Make her do a casting video;
3. If the video do not reach a threshold number of view, forget her forever;
4. Else, book a week end session;
5. Give her an advance on salary;
6. Film three/four regular straight movies, progressively increasing the roughness;
7. Spice her drinks with analgesic, and use analgesic gel as lubricant;
8. Film two rough anal movies;
9. Film a DP anal movie;
10. During all the process, treat her like shit, she'll not quit, she surely spent the advance already;
11. Forget about her forever;
12. Profit.

Just going to make a few changes...

1. Find a girl or woman
2. Make her do a casting video;
3. If the video do not reach a threshold number of view, forget her forever;
4. Else, book a week end session;
5. Give her an advance on salary;
6. Film three/four regular straight movies, progressively increasing the roughness;
7. Spice her drinks with analgesic, and use analgesic gel as lubricant;
8. Film two rough anal movies;
9. Film a DP anal movie;
10. During all the process, treat her like shit, she'll not quit, she surely spent the advance already;
11. Forget about her forever;
12. Profit.

You just described hollywood just replace anal / DP anal with nudity and sexual favors.

No one is saying that some of these women AND men are not treated badly but that just puts them in the same league as hollywood.

So, in short, no, lawmakers aren't currently targeting sex workers, they are targeting a kind of practice that apply to the biggest part of the sector, but come from only one entity. Remove Aylo from the equation, and they would be in position to have a different view on the profession, making then more accurate, and less repressive, laws. But can Aylo be removed from the equation, I don't know.
Still, must be noted that this apply to lawmakers. The motive is different for moral lobbying entities and for payment processors.

Again, you are talking about the EU and in this case the French Senate, the EU and France does NOT have their own versions of mastercard and visa, the EU and France can not, have not, will not try stop those two from imposing demands and restrictions on Pixiv, Fantai, patreon etc. not sure if they even know or care about them.

It would be great if they did, but they don't, so even if the French Senate decided to block mastercard and visa's demands on patreon it would probably only affect France solving nothing for the others affected by it.

Because they must comply to the Law that apply to their users.
Meta can do whatever they want with the personal data of their US based users, but they can't do much with the personal data of their EU based users. Reason why they needed five months before they were able to open Threads to the latter.
So, it's the EU because the US care way less about individuals.

Could a person in the EU look at revenge porn on facebook posted by an american guy of his american ex girlfriend?
Could a potential EU employer see revenge porn posted on an american womans account by her ex boyfriend?
Could an american woman start dating a say, german man or women and can their new boyfriend or girlfriend receive revenge porn picutres in their inbox because the american ex boyfriend is sending them to everyone in her contact list?

Patreon and OnlyFans got queries coming from the EU, they read them, then they though about them. And at the end of their reflection, they came to the conclusion that it's logical, rational, and good ideas. Therefore, not only they applied the change to their EU based users, but they also applied them to all their users, because to their eyes it's an improvement.

And for the most part those were good things BUT the EU is NOT the one demanding and forcing them to ban types of content.

I already answered for Amazon.
I don't have the same content than you, everything that is explicit not being shown to me. Therefore, they comply to the regulation. You aren't exposed to real and explicit content, and it's assumed that to pay you need to be old enough to have a bank account.
The same can probably be said for Facebook, hence my "where can I find this" joke.

Once again, the issue isn't the regulation, but the way sites respond to it. Some apply it only when it's mandatory to do so, while others care more about their users, or are more concerned by basic moral issues, and apply them for everyone.

But that is exactly my point, I see one thing and you see something slightly different but I CAN see it, they are saying that for patreon and the others NO ONE can see it because it's evil porn and there needs to be a gate.

So my question still stands, they expect patreon and the others to put in places gates where you AND I see the exact same thing BUT when it comes to amazon I can see evil porn without a gate... i.e. double standards.

It's funny because you seem to not understand that everything you say demonstrate that it's whatever you can think about but absolutely not a morality crusade.

Of course there is a moral crusade by conservatives and the like but I'm not saying it is solely the cause or solely to blame, just that it is one of the big driving forces. Western morality is a funny thing, so long as it does not cause too much of an inconvenience people will march and scream and throw their toys but when it starts impacting their lives in an inconvenient way they cancel the marches and just shout from their arm chairs.

Patreon received threats from payment processors, for a really good reason: Payment processors are legally accomplice if they process transaction they know as coming from illegal activities.
Patreon were having users using the service for prostitution. This is illegal activities, and payment processors were aware of it. Legally, they now became accomplice, and as anyone a bit sane, they wanted to protect their ass.
Application of the law: "Hey, we see that, through your intermediary, our services are used to fund prostitution, this have to stop immediately!"
Side node: The same surely apply for OnlyFans, but I have nothing to back it up, so I only talked about Patreon.

Facebook and other sites, host illegal content. But they just host it. They aren't payed to host the content. At no time payment processors are involved in the process. Then, why should they say something ?
Morality crusade: "Hey, we see you host porn content. It's bad, you have to stop immediately!"

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Now, if you can prove to payment processors that there's prostitution through Facebook market, or that pages/groups used for prostitution advertise on Facebook, it will be something else. In both cases, there's money transaction happening directly on Facebook, and payment processors would now be in the same position they were with Patreon, accomplice of known illegal activities.

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But as long as there's no money exchanged directly through Facebook, there's nothing illegal at payment processors level, and them asking Facebook to change would be them trying to enforce certain views regarding morality.

Thing is, facebook is advertised as a social network sites that is family friendly, people know without a doubt and expect that there will be children using it and yet the safe guards in place to prevent children from accessing porn, to prevent stranger from asking children for nude images, to prevent strangers from grooming them is a joke BUT the porn industry is the so called threat?

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I know strange coming from the BBC but still....

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And at no time is it said that money was involved, therefore it do not regard payment processors, and it would be them crusading for a certain morality if they were asking Facebook to forbid this.

So that would be the one group where ads were not shown? facebook makes money off each of it's pages. Stick a "buy nike" on the top of a prostitute like they do with footballers and there would be hell to pay.

No matter how you look at it, facebook made money off a private group sharing illegal porn.

Here it fallback to the fraud risk and payback cost. If, as cam model, you contact payment processors, and provide them the number of a frozen account with one or two millions, they can use to cover the payback cost, so in short if you do what Patreon had to do (with more millions) in order to keep its deal with payment processors, I'm sure that you can come to an agreement and keep your account.

Fraud risk and payback cost are moot in this case, it has nothing to do with demanding the ban on incest etc. all those risks are still there for all the games that don't contain ban content so the ban is not influenced by those things.

So, once again this can mostly be solved by providing a full legal status to sex workers. The frozen account would still be asked by payment processors, but doing a job with an official and legal status, sex workers would be able to legally regroup. There would be something like the "Sex Worker Agency" or a name like that, globally working in the same way that music right managing agencies. You would have to pay a reasonable subscription fee, and in exchange you would be able to use the frozen account owned by the association/company/whatever as guaranty for payment processors.

While I'm all for legalizing sex workers my point was that none of that is a credible reason for the demands to ban incest games etc.

My original point was that they use porn as an excuse. They jump in saying there needs to be this and that regulation and gating etc. and then go "oh look porn games" lets target them too even though they have nothing in common OTHER than they are porn.

3D models being sex trafficked? nope, STD's spread across VN's? nope, 3Dmodels forced to work long hours in harsh conditions? The fact is targeting games is a bad joke on their part and they use porn as the reason.

I just past through 7 pages of result (it's amazing the number of books and song named "chassing sunset"), and at no time did Amazon proposed me the game. What only prove everything I said previously:

But you CAN find it on steam even though it's NOT supposed to be on P

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Patreon ban regarding drawn/rendered character is mostly due to a bad timing

It's not just "drawn/rendered character" it all adult content that has banned fetishes.

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Payment processors aren't engaged in a morality crusade

No one said they were, I said that those on a morality crusade were a big influence or driving force.

There's companies that only apply regulation where they are mandatory to apply, and don't care about the rest of their customers.

And that is one of the big points I've been trying to make. Pixiv, patreon etc have been told it is mandatory to have steps in place while it is NOT mandatory for other companies / corporations.

I already answer that. When asked to remove all prostitution, incest and CP from your site, request intended as "implying real persons" but not explicitly stating it, you can hardly answer "yes but".

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"Incest

Incest refers to sexual activities or relationships between close relatives.

Not permitted

• Real or animated works (photo, video, written, audio) featuring sexual activity or role play interactions between family members who are blood relatives or part of the same immediate family (e.g. siblings, parents, adopted children, step-siblings, step-parents)."

Yes but


Permitted

• Sexual activity between members of a family who are not blood relatives (e.g. in-laws).
• Personal accounts or survival stories involving incest.
• Fictional plot points involving incest that are part of a larger narrative (e.g. Game of Thrones).

It's the law, payment processor have no choice than to comply.
It's illegal for them and banks to proceed transaction they know as coming from illegal activities, period. Do you really believe that they would goes, "oh, we will do as if we didn't know" ?

You still have not explained how this relates to the context.

It's the law, payment processor have no choice than to comply.

So they can't allow patreon to offer subscription service to incest games but they can allow steam to sell them?????
Same game, different services.... what sets them apart?

It's illegal for them and banks to proceed transaction they know as coming from illegal activities, period.

If it is illegal on patreon then it is illegal on steam but no action taken and no worries about legal issues

No, MasterCard/VISA can, what is different from your "the US can".
Then being US based do not give the power to the US

Of course it does, being a US based AND run company means that the biggest influence financially, socially, morally, comes from the US. The driving force behind policy shifts, regulation changes, etc. etc. for US based / run companies and corporations is the US.

i.e. If all of europe decided to block (just as an example) new guinea and the US had ties with them mastercard and visa would still conduct business with them

BUT

If the US blocked (again just an example new guinea is awesome) new guinea and all of europe didn't, mastercard and visa would block their services.

If the US change its banking regulation, they'll just have to apply those change to US based transaction, not to the rest of the world. If the US say that pornography is banned, they'll just stop to handle pornography transaction involving US citizens.

AND US companies which would include mastercard and visa and affect people ALL around the world who would normally use those cards to buy their porn in their own country......

The only case that would impact them is if the US starts to have a law strictly forbidding to any US based company to engage in a way or another with pornography. But like both MasterCard and VISA are a banks partnership, all their none US based partners (so the majority) would either force for a relocation, or stop being partners.

That is theoretical and SO IS MINE but I think that the over seas banks would up hold the ban because they would be busy with transactions in so many other markets that they would grudgingly take the hit on porn to keep all the cash from the other markets flowing in.

It would need few months, but in the end once again only the US would be impacted by the decision.

I disagree, the banks would look at it I THINK in this way

We have minerals and production market, shipping market, agricultural market, fashion market, transport market etc. etc. etc.
or the porn market and they would decide loosing access to mastercard and visa would be more costly than the average person loosing their access to porn.

Then tell the people they'll have to pay more for cheese, beef, clothes, cars etc. and the people will willing jump on board too.

SubscribeStar exist, and don't have a partnership with VISA and MasterCard. It's annoying of course, it cost more for the customer, but it's totally possible.

I only knew about paypal but that would explain why they are so much small than patreon and it also limits their creator and subscriber base.

Loosing access to those to is more than just loosing access to their services, there are probably ways for people to sub using other payment options, accounts etc. but people are also lazy and 8 out of 10 would stop at "oh that don't accept" and close the page. So they get not only the service but the convenience and time saving other methods would require.

VISA and MasterCard being the biggest and most known payment processors do not mean that there isn't alternative. So, to continue the previous point, it the US forbid all US based companies to deal with pornography in a way or another, and VISA/MasterCard's partners do not oppose to this, you just have to move outside of the USA and use none US based payment processors,

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.

They do exist and if in that example people were left with no choice SOME would go and look them up and some of those might even sign up but the majority would switch solely to pirating and the industry would shrink.

And they don't, proof that it's not at all a question of morality, but a question of legality...

There is no world law / treaty or policy that makes it illegal for two 3d adult (ish) models which the story says are related to engaging in sex in a VN.
There is no world law / treaty or policy that makes it illegal for two 3d adult (ish) models which the story says are related to engaging in sex in a rpg game.
There is no world law / treaty or policy that makes it illegal for two character in a book where the story says they are related to engage in sex.

As you said yourself, it takes time, those crusading for morality are making huge strides but it is taking even them...time and they are an influence on NOT the total reason behind.

It's 2024 we're supposed to have flying cars and live in habitats on the moon, instead we still can't agree if people have a right over their own bodies, we can't agree if people have a right over their own lives, we can't and i don't believe i'm even saying this... agree that magic is not real.... and it's not legality that is causing these problems...

(to clarify, we is for the human race not you and me )

The fact is conservative groups and morality crusaders are making progress and it is fueled by ignorance and lack of education and in some cases plain stupidity.

And that, as I said, the incest and all ban collided with the prostitution issue.

It didn't really collide though, if we were on a road, incest and the rest would be driving in the next town over. They took the opportunity to lump it in when there is no direct connection between them.

There is no legal basis for a full world wide ban on incest games on that platform. So even regional laws can't be blamed.

So far, I only see clear biases in your thinking process, and so far no double standard. I summarize:

• PornHub is the main platform for a company world wide know to not care about law, abuse its models, and that own the biggest part of nowadays porn industry. Targeting them do not necessarily mean that you target sex workers, you can just target abusers.

I mentioned hollywood earlier but your description above and the previous one describes the fashion industry for the last 50 years...

and of course they are targeting sex workers, i linked at least 3 sources in previous replies.....

Payment processors have the legal obligation to not process transaction they kown as coming from illegal activities. Them asking sites for which they process transaction to stop illegal activities, while leaving alone sites for which they do not process transaction, do not mean that they target sex workers. It just mean that they do not enforce their moral views.

But that is the point THEY DO process transactions for them and then DON'T make the same demands....

Patreon wasn't targeted for hosting sex workers, but for hosting prostitutes; that are a specific kind of sex workers.

If they were only targeting the prostitution on patreon how did games get hit and not even games with prostitution... but incest and the rest? Their targeting was a lot wider than you seem willing to admit.

Payment processors letting companies like Amazon sell incest/bestiality stories, just prove that it's not was triggered payment processors when it came to Patreon. Context made them believe that there were real incest/bestiality content, what would have been illegal for them to knowingly process. And context made it that Patreon wasn't in position to limits the field of application of the ban.

This doesn't explain your argument, you says payment processors are worried legally, they are just as liable with amazon as with patreon, the reason of legality requiring age verification applies to both, both could spawn a "my kid got a incest X" from amazon or patreon so you are not explaining why legally patreon must meet those standards in every country and amazon not.

I think I summarized all the points, and when you put them all after the others, not only there's no double standard, but there's also no crusade against sex workers. At least not coming from the payment processors, nor from the regulations.

I think there might be a fundamental misunderstanding here, a few times now you have mentioned crusade coming from payment processors.

NO ONE is saying the payment processors are crusading or on a crusade, those who are crusading, the conservatives and other moral groups are using the payment processors and regulators to advance their goals.

No one in their right mind should be against age verification for porn on ANY site, No one in their right mind should be against it being illegal for minors to buy porn (15 year old me is giving me the finger >.<), No one in their right mind should be against the fight against sex trafficking, CP, exploitation, revenge porn BUT No one in their right mind can say that "we are fighting prostitution so we ban incest games" makes any sense.

You also saying that "there's no double standard" but

facebook, instagram, twitter, myspace etc. etc. have all been exposed as hosting CP, beasty, revenge porn, having easy access to porn for minors, been a place for grooming children, involved in meet up's with minors, exploitation BUT are not PORN sites and outside of the scandals are not thought of as being associated with porn.

Onlyfans, patreon etc. which allow cam models are associated with porn even though in cases like patreon it is NOT a porn site and only allows adult content amongst MANY other things.

Money is made on all these platforms both directly and indirectly and yet the sites that are clearly the most dangerous are the least policed.
How is that NOT a double standard?
If facebook came out tomorrow saying it was focusing on adult content and porn you can bet they would suddenly be swamps with demands and the same standards being enforced on purely porn sites or those associated with porn.

or to put it more simply

You have site X and site Y

Site X is associated with adult content

Site Y is not

Both host adult content

Both have been found to have been involved with illegal adult content

Site X was found to be involved in some

Site Y in a lot more and covering more illegal activities

Both make money directly/indirectly

Site X has a number of demands placed on it and reviews to make sure changes supposed to be made are done

Site Y gets into trouble for each case but the same demands as site X are not made (even if only applying to the adult content)

Now there is no way anyone can say that they were treated differently

Everything you said so far goes in their way. To quote OP, "they can make judgements on the legality of transactions but not the content", and it's precisely what they are doing.

If the legality of the transaction was the defining factor ALL porn games would be banned.

The transactions are being separated by content.

Can you have a transaction for a game? depends
Can you have a transaction for a strip poker game? Yes
Can you have a transaction for a incest game? No

The defining factor is not the legality of the transaction, it is the contents of the product.

Broadcasting porn without the consent of the person involved, prostitution, and CP are all illegal. As it is illegal for banks and payment processors to benefits from transaction known as coming from illegal activities.

But using that as an excuse to ban types of porn games has nothing to do with each other.....

Their Patreon page is fully functioning right now

I am 100% at fault for name dropping there and I should not have done that

But I'm sure you know enough to understand what was meant by it.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The EU [...] are not fining facebook for porn or illegal porn.

You are missing the point. They can't fine Facebook for something it's not doing. Or, if you prefer, they can't fine Facebook for a lack of control/moderation that happen outside of the EU borders. As EU resident, I see too many AI softporn content coming from scammers and idiots fishing for likes and followers, but it never goes further than those none existing girls in bikini or sexy clothes.
All the examples you shown so far either are at least 7 years old, therefore prior to any regulation, or happens in the UK, that isn't anymore an EU member.

And of course, you can't want the EU to enforce its regulation outside of its borders. It would be them trying to impose their view over the world, what you say, with reason, as being bad.

Just going to make a few changes...
[...]
You just described hollywood just replace anal / DP anal with nudity and sexual favors.

No one is saying that some of these women AND men are not treated badly but that just puts them in the same league as hollywood.

Are you sure to be honest here ?

Oh, of course, there's peoples in Hollywood who clearly abused their position, but they were a minority; let's have a bit of faith and assume that it's an era from the past. You can hardly oppose this to the current state of the pornography industry, where it's one, and only one, entity that is abusing, and with that entity representing around 75% of the market.

Weinstein, to take the biggest abuser as reference, was behind what ? Between 1980 and 2010, there's on average

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; in the mid 00's the production exploded, going further than 2010 would distort the results. He produced

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before the company was bought by

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. Then, between 2005 and 2010 he produced

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; the company continued after 2010, but it's to keep the range I used above. Therefore, between 1980 and 2010, he produced 201 of the 7,054 movies produced in the USA, it's not even 3% of the production.
This while PornHub is behind more than half the annual world production.

But that is exactly my point, I see one thing and you see something slightly different but I CAN see it, they are saying that for patreon and the others NO ONE can see it because it's evil porn and there needs to be a gate.

"Once again, the issue isn't the regulation, but the way sites respond to it. Some apply it only when it's mandatory to do so, while others care more about their users, or are more concerned by basic moral issues, and apply them for everyone."

You quoted it, why discard it in your thinking process ?

What you demonstrate is just that Facebook and Co don't care what they promote as long as they make profit with it. They hide what is mandatory to hide, and only where it's mandatory to hide it, but continue to host it for everyone else, because they want the money.
It's a question of personal ethic, not of imposed morality.

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"They aren't payed to host the content. At no time payment processors are involved in the process."

You put emphasis on it, why, once again, discard it ?

Facebook earn money because of this content, but they aren't payed to host it. There's nothing illegal in advertising, of course as long as you don't advertise for something illegal. Therefore, payment processors do not profits from an illegal activity because they take their share of those perfectly legal transactions.
It's not the same than paying Facebook for the right to have a group hosting illegal content, or paying Facebook to advertise for that group. There, and there only, payment processors would profits from something illegal.

The same apply for your second link regarding prostitutes. They use Facebook as showcase, but they don't pay Facebook for this showcase, nor are they payed through Facebook. Therefore there's no transaction coming from an illegal activity.
It's not the situation that Patreon was facing. They were hosting the content and the intermediary for the payment. It's the last part that made payment processors react, and the last part only.

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Well, you just prove me right once again.

Facebook only care where the regulation apply. This is still a question of ethic, not a question of regulation, nor a question of enforced morality, neither is it a question of double standard.
It's purely Facebook not caring about what happen on their platform, except when they are legally forced to care, and nothing more. And as long as Facebook isn't an intermediary for the financial transaction, this do not regard payment processors.

No matter how you look at it, facebook made money off a private group sharing illegal porn.

And ?
Is it illegal to earn money ? No.
Does Facebook depend on the banking regulation ? No.
Is Facebook an intermediary in the illegal financial transaction that possibly happen between members of that group ? No.
Are internet hosting platform legally responsible for the content created by their users ? No.
Have internet hosting platform the legal obligation to moderate their public content ? On some parts of the world, yes.
Have hosting companies the legal right to monitor their private content ? No.

Conclusion:
Facebook is a company led by assholes, but strictly speaking and legally speaking, they aren't doing something illegal. And like payment processors are not involved, them saying something would be them trying to enforce their moral views.

While I'm all for legalizing sex workers my point was that none of that is a credible reason for the demands to ban incest games etc.

My original point was that they use porn as an excuse. They jump in saying there needs to be this and that regulation and gating etc. and then go "oh look porn games" lets target them too even though they have nothing in common OTHER than they are porn.

And as we all know, there isn't a single porn game on Patreon, nor is there adult content on Pixiv...
Oh, my bad, there's such content, proof, once again, that it's not a question of morality, but of legality; and I'll not once again explain why drawing/renders are impacted for Patreon.

Now, instead of repeating what idiots said, take a look at pixiv

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.
What you search is under the "Restrictions for Healthy Expression in Specific Countries and Regions" section. For the US and UK, are banned, in terms of adult content, CP, incest, non-consensual sex and anything that fall under the obscenity laws. For the rest of the world nothing is banned...

So, please, don't tell me that it's payment processors trying to impose their moral views, or moral crusaders imposing their view over the world. I know that it's what idiots are saying, here among other places, but it's purely ridiculous. If it was a question of morality, the ban would have been for all users, not just for US and UK ones. Instead, it's limited to countries where such content would put payment processors in a position where they could profit from transaction coming from an illegal activity; what is illegal for them.

3D models being sex trafficked? nope, STD's spread across VN's? nope, 3Dmodels forced to work long hours in harsh conditions? The fact is targeting games is a bad joke on their part and they use porn as the reason.

I explained in every single post for that discussion why drawing/renders are impacted for Patreon; it's a side effect of prostitution colliding with the rest of the content, not an explicit intent.
As for Pixiv, it's clearly the consequence of US and UK laws.
And for OnlyFans, it was a lack of moderation. The issue being solved without any ban being added in their Terms of Use.

But you CAN find it on steam even though it's NOT supposed to be on P

What prove that payment processors do not care about the morality of the content.
What prove that drawing/renders being impacted by the ban on Patreon is just a side effect due to a bad timing.
Else the game would also be banned on Steam.

It's not just "drawn/rendered character" it all adult content that has banned fetishes.

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*sigh*

Real incest is illegal in half the world. Bestiality is illegal in more than half the world. None consensual sex between real person is called "rape", what is illegal in most of the world. CP is illegal in most of the world.
And it happen that, while only content involving human beings should have been banned by Patreon, circumstance made it that content involving pixels have also been impacted.

No one said they were, I said that those on a morality crusade were a big influence or driving force.

And I said that you are full of delusion by believing that they dictate how payment processors act.
As said in OP, payment processors only care about the legality of the transaction, they don't care a single second about the morality of the content, and it's not some country sized lobbying groups that will make them change on this point.

And that is one of the big points I've been trying to make. Pixiv, patreon etc have been told it is mandatory to have steps in place while it is NOT mandatory for other companies / corporations.

And what I try to explain you, is that this sentence is pure bullshit.

Patreon have been told by payment processors to stop making them break the Law.
Pixiv have been told by payment processors to respect the new US and UK Law, because else it would make payment processors break the law.
Facebook do not make payment processors break the Law, they are said nothing.

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"Incest

Once again, thanks to prove me right.
This isn't a moral crusade, but a question of legality of the transaction involving the content.
Drawing/renders are impacted due to the circumstance, not intended as being targeted.

Else, there wouldn't be such exceptions...

You still have not explained how this relates to the context.

Well, read again everything I wrote, because I explained it, more than once in each post. But I can do it once again...

1. Through its subscription service, Patreon was the intermediary for financial transactions involving prostitution;
2. Prostitution is illegal;
3. Payment processors where the entities processing those financial transactions;
4. Because of Patreon, payment processors were profiting from illegal activities;
5. It's illegal for payment processors to profit from known illegal activities;
6. Payment processors asked Patreon to choose. Either they stop to serve as intermediary for those transactions, or they stop to use their services;
7. Patreon decided to stop to serve as intermediary for those transactions.

There's no moral view involved here, it's nothing more than a question of legality of the transaction.

And, once again, this is not the case of Facebook, because the point 1 is mandatory but it do not apply to Facebook; they do not serve as intermediary for the financial transactions.
And, once again, drawing/renders being impacted is a side effect, not a voluntary intent.

If it is illegal on patreon then it is illegal on steam but no action taken and no worries about legal issues

To my knowledge, Steam do not serve as intermediary for financial transaction involving prostitution...

As I said and explained, in all my posts, it's what was asked to Patreon. "Stop serving as intermediary for financial transaction involving prostitution. By the way, there's also incest, bestiality, CP and non-consensual sex content on your platform, those too are illegal [assumed but not said: when involving real living human beings]".

It's not a question of morality, it's a pure question of legality. And there's no double standard, because Steam do not have the illegal content that Patreon had, prostitution.

AND US companies which would include mastercard and visa and affect people ALL around the world who would normally use those cards to buy their porn in their own country......

Once again, this is not how it works, and it's not my opinion, it's a fact.

Payment processors works with country banking regulation, and only have to comply with them when one of the two ends of the transaction depend on those regulation. But they don't depend on a country banking regulation, including the US one.

By example, in 2015, following the US decision to ease its sanctions,

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. The last words are important, because it's only US citizens and US based companies that previously couldn't use MasterCard in Cuba. The US had Cuba under embargo, but MasterCard and VISA continued to operate there, as long as it wasn't transaction involving the an US citizen or an US based company.

Then tell the people they'll have to pay more for cheese, beef, clothes, cars etc. and the people will willing jump on board too.

Why would it cost more because the cooperative isn't anymore named VISA or MasterCard ?
It would still be a partnership between banks, and it would still do the exact same thing. At most the operative cost would be 1 cent higher by transaction, perhaps 2, that's all.
But the most plausible issue would be for the operative cost to be a bit lower, because the new entity would be designed for the modern world right from the starts, unlike VISA and MasterCard, that inherit from their infrastructure designed in the 60's.
VISA and MasterCard are not banks, they are purely payment processors. It's a bit reducing, but globally speaking the only thing they do is to tell a bank that they own X to whatever other bank. They do not even process money, they process numbers.

As you said yourself, it takes time, those crusading for morality are making huge strides but it is taking even them...time and they are an influence on NOT the total reason behind.

And you're actually one of their best apostle.
You present them to the world as something they aren't, giving them capabilities they don't have. Doing so, you give them the power they dream to have, fear over peoples.

What lead to a question: Why do you fear them so much ?

Because what other reason than fear can have made you blind to everything I said so far ?

You strongly want Patreon, Pixiv, and Co be proof of a crusade that don't exist.

You refused to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that Patreon ban over pixels characters is a side effect, not a voluntary intent.

You refuse to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that Patreon was hit because it serve as intermediary for financial transactions.

You refuse to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that Facebook reason to no be hit is that it do not serve as intermediary for financial transactions.

You refuse to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that payment processors do not care a single second about the morality of the content, and only about the legality of the transaction.

You even refuse to believe payment processors when they say it, this while most references and arguments in your own posts prove that it's the truth.

In the end, you strongly and deeply want moral crusaders to be almighty and to decide of the world fate, this despite all the explanation, demonstration, and proof of the opposite that you can face, when you don't provide them yourself.
I mean, near to no one talk about indie adult games, while everyone talk about pornography, CP and child abuse that happen on social media platform. Yet you talk as someone convinced that moral crusaders know about the first and act against it, while being blind to the second and staying silent about it... How can this make sense?
Hint: it don't.

It's 2024 we're supposed to have flying cars and live in habitats on the moon, instead we still can't agree if people have a right over their own bodies, we can't agree if people have a right over their own lives, we can't and i don't believe i'm even saying this... agree that magic is not real.... and it's not legality that is causing these problems...

This have absolutely nothing to do with payment processors, and therefore nothing to do with Patreon, Pixiv and Co situation...

This is a purely US internal issue, that only regard US citizens and US politicians, and that have near to no impact outside of the USA.
And, once again, no, US citizens and US government do not have that power over payment processors like VISA and MasterCard.

(to clarify, we is for the human race not you and me )

And as said above, "we" only apply to a minority (I hope) of US citizens.
It's, with Russia, the only country that is regressing in terms of women and sexual minority rights, as well as in terms of moral concern. What doesn't mean, alas, that there isn't countries that are stagnating.
But, while a part of the USA is trying to backtrack to 1800, globally the rest of the world is looking to 2100. Even a country like Saudi Arabia slowly starts to open women to some rights. Anyone who isn't straight cis male will still have it really hard for decades, but just 5 years ago no one would have put a dime on the fact that

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. In the same time, when a none US citizen look at the USA, he would be ready to bet on them passing a law restricting job access for women.

The fact is conservative groups and morality crusaders are making progress and it is fueled by ignorance and lack of education and in some cases plain stupidity.

In 1974, in France we had a debate to legalize abortion. It was led by a French politician woman,

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, who's an Auschwitz survivor. During the official debate, that lasted for months, you could hear politicians saying atrocities about this. Looking at the debate now, you would believe that it take place in 36-45 Germany. The result of the vote was 284 in favour, 189 against, so 40% opposition.
That year, so almost 50 years later, we put abortion in our constitution, making it an inalienable right, after just few days of official debate, mostly focused on "should we include more", with 780 vote in favour, 72 against, so 8% actual opposition; there's more votes because both chambers must vote to change the constitution.
I know that one country can serve as reference for the whole world, but it apply both side. Neither France open mind, nor US conservatism, define what way the world is going. Yet there's more countries going in the same way than France, than countries following the US example. Conservatism is spreading, but it only touch a minority that just become more conservative than they already were.

and of course they are targeting sex workers, i linked at least 3 sources in previous replies.....

The one regarding PornHub is due to them hosting actual CP and having refused to act against this.

The two regarding OnlyFans talk about a ban that have been lifted before it even reached the Terms of Use. How can it be an action targeting sex workers, when sex workers continue to use the service in the exact same way than previously ?

The one regarding the girl being denied an US visa is ambiguous. There's no proof that it's a legal move and not an individual decision. Yet I'm tempted to say that it's the second, else not a single porn actress or former porn actress would be able to have a visa for the US.

As for the roman catholic archdiocese of Washington, it's what they want, what doesn't mean that it's what they achieve.

The New York Times link is particular, it starts about a brothel in the only US state that allow prostitution in some counties, then switch in the fact that there's sex workers struggling with banks, stating that it's perhaps can be due to them being sex workers.
But it's about banks, not about payment processors, and here again the new is ambiguous. There's evidence that sex workers are impacted, but not that they are targeted. Frequent cash transaction and/or small transactions isn't something limited to sex workers. Drugs dealers, undeclared workers, anyone who deal with stolen goods, shop owners who fraud taxes, and so on, are following the same scheme. Therefore, you can't tell that it target sex workers if you can't confirm that the other ones aren't impacted in the same proportion.

In the end, the only link actually pointing to sex workers being targeted is the one regarding JP Morgan closing porn stars account. But it do not concern payment processors, JP Morgan isn't a payment processor, it's a bank. And it's a 10 years old initiative coming from a single bank, with no actual sign that other banks are actually actively going after porn stars account.

[...] BUT No one in their right mind can say that "we are fighting prostitution so we ban incest games" makes any sense.

Good thing then that no one said it...

Now there is no way anyone can say that they were treated differently

There's still a way, the way I explain you since few days now:

1. Payment processors do not processes transaction coming from illegal content, so they have nothing to say;
2. Countries can not enforce their regulation outside of its borders, and Facebook comply to the regulation inside those borders, so they have nothing to say.

The difference with Patreon isn't that Patreon is a porn site, but that Patreon have subscription directly linked to the content. And those subscription are transaction coming from illegal content.
The difference with PornHub isn't that PornHub is a porn site, but that PornHub have this public illegal content and refused to act against it even when the content was reported.

If the legality of the transaction was the defining factor ALL porn games would be banned.

If the morality of the content was the defining factor ALL porn games would be banned.

This simply because porn is immoral whatever its nature. But the legality of porn depend on its nature...
Incest is illegal in more or less half the world
Bestiality is illegal in most of the world
None consensual sex is illegal in most of the world
CP is illegal almost everywhere in the world

Suddenly, the banned content correspond to the legality of the transaction...

And, no, I'll not once again explain why pixels are included when it come to Patreon...

 

[Semetrika]

Can't we just agree this is bullshit target fictional content and must be purged real problem instead this essay without nowhere? Instead i like to know if is there some hope to change this nonsense restrictions on platforms in future.

 

[morphnet]

All the examples you shown so far either are at least 7 years old, therefore prior to any regulation, or happens in the UK, that isn't anymore an EU member.

In 2020 those services cut ties with pornhib, showing that for years before AND after that social media platforms were hosting the same AND worse content, which is also why I kept going further back and mentioning myspace.

The porn industry gets hit with a ton of new rules, regulations and policies across the board but social media platforms don't have the same demands placed on them across their industry.

Are you sure to be honest here ?

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and there is so much more... The history of exploitation, sexual abuse and child abuse etc. etc.
So you tell me, am I being honest?

"Once again, the issue isn't the regulation, but the way sites respond to it. Some apply it only when it's mandatory to do so, while others care more about their users, or are more concerned by basic moral issues, and apply them for everyone."

You quoted it, why discard it in your thinking process ?

What you demonstrate is just that Facebook and Co don't care what they promote as long as they make profit with it. They hide what is mandatory to hide, and only where it's mandatory to hide it, but continue to host it for everyone else, because they want the money.
It's a question of personal ethic, not of imposed morality.

It feels like we are going in circles here, it is MANDATORY for the adult industry, it is NOT mandatory for social media industry.

"They aren't payed to host the content. At no time payment processors are involved in the process."

You put emphasis on it, why, once again, discard it ?

Facebook earn money because of this content, but they aren't payed to host it. There's nothing illegal in advertising, of course as long as you don't advertise for something illegal. Therefore, payment processors do not profits from an illegal activity because they take their share of those perfectly legal transactions.
It's not the same than paying Facebook for the right to have a group hosting illegal content, or paying Facebook to advertise for that group. There, and there only, payment processors would profits from something illegal.

The same apply for your second link regarding prostitutes. They use Facebook as showcase, but they don't pay Facebook for this showcase, nor are they payed through Facebook. Therefore there's no transaction coming from an illegal activity.
It's not the situation that Patreon was facing. They were hosting the content and the intermediary for the payment. It's the last part that made payment processors react, and the last part only.

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And as we all know, there isn't a single porn game on Patreon, nor is there adult content on Pixiv...
Oh, my bad, there's such content, proof, once again, that it's not a question of morality, but of legality; and I'll not once again explain why drawing/renders are impacted for Patreon.

Now, instead of repeating what idiots said, take a look at pixiv

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.
What you search is under the "Restrictions for Healthy Expression in Specific Countries and Regions" section. For the US and UK, are banned, in terms of adult content, CP, incest, non-consensual sex and anything that fall under the obscenity laws. For the rest of the world nothing is banned...

So, please, don't tell me that it's payment processors trying to impose their moral views, or moral crusaders imposing their view over the world. I know that it's what idiots are saying, here among other places, but it's purely ridiculous. If it was a question of morality, the ban would have been for all users, not just for US and UK ones. Instead, it's limited to countries where such content would put payment processors in a position where they could profit from transaction coming from an illegal activity; what is illegal for them.

You were saying?

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"Conversely, if you choose not to display R-18 and R-18G content, all payment options will remain available.

You can change your viewing restrictions settings at any time by logging in here:

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* Your choice of payment method will not affect your ability to change your viewing restrictions settings.

For those living outside Japan
The following payment methods will become unavailable:

• PayPal
• Credit card

* We are actively working to reintroduce credit card payments in the future."

I explained in every single post for that discussion why drawing/renders are impacted for Patreon; it's a side effect of prostitution colliding with the rest of the content, not an explicit intent.

You say "side-effect" I say "excuse" but whether it is a "side-effect" or an "excuse" it's still wrong!

As for Pixiv, it's clearly the consequence of US and UK laws.

That as I mentioned in previous posts affects everyone in the world outside of Japan....

*sigh*

Real incest is illegal in half the world. Bestiality is illegal in more than half the world. None consensual sex between real person is called "rape", what is illegal in most of the world. CP is illegal in most of the world.
And it happen that, while only content involving human beings should have been banned by Patreon, circumstance made it that content involving pixels have also been impacted.

*sigh* is about right,

Written is NOT real, Music is NOT real, Audio books are NOT real etc. etc. etc.

"

Not permitted

• Real or animated works (photo, video, written, audio) featuring sexual activity or role play interactions between family members who are blood relatives or part of the same immediate family (e.g. siblings, parents, adopted children, step-siblings, step-parents)."

And I said that you are full of delusion by believing that they dictate how payment processors act.

They can stop sex-ed being taught in schools, they can have foreign policy attach anti-abortion clauses to aid shipments etc. etc. etc. but they can't influence financial services? Maybe instead of claiming i'm full of delusion you might want to look into just how long a reach the conservatives have?

And what I try to explain you, is that this sentence is pure bullshit.

Patreon have been told by payment processors to stop making them break the Law.
Pixiv have been told by payment processors to respect the new US and UK Law, because else it would make payment processors break the law.

You still ignoring my question

Once again, this is not how it works, and it's not my opinion, it's a fact.

Payment processors works with country banking regulation, and only have to comply with them when one of the two ends of the transaction depend on those regulation. But they don't depend on a country banking regulation, including the US one.

By example, in 2015, following the US decision to ease its sanctions,

You must be registered to see the links

. The last words are important, because it's only US citizens and US based companies that previously couldn't use MasterCard in Cuba. The US had Cuba under embargo, but MasterCard and VISA continued to operate there, as long as it wasn't transaction involving the an US citizen or an US based company.

I'll point you to the above mentioned

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"Conversely, if you choose not to display R-18 and R-18G content, all payment options will remain available.

You can change your viewing restrictions settings at any time by logging in here:

You must be registered to see the links

* Your choice of payment method will not affect your ability to change your viewing restrictions settings.

For those living outside Japan
The following payment methods will become unavailable:

• PayPal
• Credit card

* We are actively working to reintroduce credit card payments in the future."

Why would it cost more because the cooperative isn't anymore named VISA or MasterCard ?
It would still be a partnership between banks, and it would still do the exact same thing. At most the operative cost would be 1 cent higher by transaction, perhaps 2, that's all.
But the most plausible issue would be for the operative cost to be a bit lower, because the new entity would be designed for the modern world right from the starts, unlike VISA and MasterCard, that inherit from their infrastructure designed in the 60's.
VISA and MasterCard are not banks, they are purely payment processors. It's a bit reducing, but globally speaking the only thing they do is to tell a bank that they own X to whatever other bank. They do not even process money, they process numbers.

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And you're actually one of their best apostle.
You present them to the world as something they aren't, giving them capabilities they don't have. Doing so, you give them the power they dream to have, fear over peoples.

And I think you don't see the reach they actually have....

What lead to a question: Why do you fear them so much ?

Because what other reason than fear can have made you blind to everything I said so far ?

I'm pissed at them, their influence is holding mankind back and the porn games thing was the proverbial straw on the camels back....

You strongly want Patreon, Pixiv, and Co be proof of a crusade that don't exist.

YOU say it doesn't while I have provided links to sources other than myself that say it does....

You refused to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that Patreon ban over pixels characters is a side effect, not a voluntary intent.

and you refuse to answer my question as to why I can buy WITH mastercard incest on steam but not support a dev NOT buy a game on patreon

You refuse to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that Patreon was hit because it serve as intermediary for financial transactions.

So is Steam, GOG etc and PLEASE don't mention prostitution on patreon again, you still refuse to explain the link between prostitution and incest games....

You refuse to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that Facebook reason to no be hit is that it do not serve as intermediary for financial transactions.

See my above links

You refuse to acknowledge, despite it being explained and demonstrated more than once, in all possible way, that payment processors do not care a single second about the morality of the content, and only about the legality of the transaction.

See my above answers, also you keep adding "explained and demonstrated", you have explained it as YOU see/understand it BUT you have been surprisingly lacking in any kind of source department so no "demonstrated" you have not.

I know that one country can serve as reference for the whole world, but it apply both side. Neither France open mind, nor US conservatism, define what way the world is going. Yet there's more countries going in the same way than France, than countries following the US example. Conservatism is spreading, but it only touch a minority that just become more conservative than they already were.

This view of yours makes me call into question all your replies....

When conservatives are back by groups like the catholic church, which reports an increase in their numbers and is one of the largest religions on the planet, your view of "touch a minority" goes right out the window...

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" The number of baptized Catholics has increased by about 1% — 14 million — rising from 1.376 billion in 2021 to 1.390 billion in 2022. "

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The worlds population is 8.2 billion, 1.390 billion people are hearing a conservative message on the topics we are discussing and that is ONLY counting catholics in this source NOT all the other groups that have members as conservatives. No matter how you slice it that is NOT a minority by any standard.....

I'm skipping the rest because you are repeating yourself without any sources and your understanding on this particular topic is based on your experiences and mine is on mine and the sources I've shared, there also seems to be a few gaps in your information so I'm leaving it here.

I have no interest in you and I becoming heated over something so far out of our control. So can we just agree to disagree?

Can't we just agree this is bullshit target fictional content and must be purged real problem instead this essay without nowhere?

We can agree it's bullshit and must be purged in MOST areas but this is general discussion and we rumble on sometimes

Instead i like to know if is there some hope to change this nonsense restrictions on platforms in future.

There is always hope but doubtful anytime soon....