VN Length.

[IllRepute]

Hello,

I am writing this because I have been working on a Adult VN script and I am interested in knowing what people consider a good length.
I have 2,500 lines of dialog so far and I haven't got to the real sex parts. (So far 2 BJs and some female masturbation and lots of skin. ) The novel has 8 girls (With 4 more probably coming) and I can't figure out how fast or slow my pacing is compared to others. As of right now I am assuming this will be a novel and not really a game as I have no real programming skills and with multiple choices the VN would be REALLY big. So anyone have some advice? 10,000 lines? 50,000? As long as it takes?

I plan on finding someone to team up with for renders and animation (Because if I do the renders it will be pretty "blah".) But I wanted to wait till I was finished with the first draft so I could talk with them on what is doable and not doable for editing purposes.

Thanks for your time!
MoLock

 

[PrinceOfShades]

I can't properly estimate just by lines of dialogue. The lines can be 2 words or 20 for all I know.
What I know is that you should attempt to strike a balance between adult content and regular story. If you don't want the player to lose interest, the safest way to do this without ruining the story is to introduce episodic characters with this sole purpose. Maybe a random girl at a bar late at night. Or an escort. That's up to you. But if you want to have 10 hours of story and only 2 blowjobs, that's usually not very well received. From what I've noticed, some developers make at least one girl pretty easy to get and they use that girl freely while developing the others.

All this being said, you'll definitely find some vocal story lovers that don't mind 10 hours of story and 2 BJs, but I personally find it very unbalanced and I'm sure many would agree. Of course, the 10 hours part is just an example.

In terms of "how long should a VN be", the answer is "however long you want it to be". If you feel like you have no good story to tell anymore, you can end it there. But if you haven't finished saying everything, continue it. A VN can't be too long, there's no such thing. Don't place a limit on how much you should write, that tends to ruin stories. Ever notice how longer movies are usually better because the writer had so much to say?

 

[woody554]

depends on the story you wanna tell. but I've yet to see anything that was too short, and anything you plan is probably gonna balloon 10x bigger as you write it. so you should probably cut everything you can, and adding 4 MORE girls is definitely bad. probably you should never have more than 3.

I'm rambling by nature, and my events get easily bigger than 2500 words. and that is only a BAD thing. it means I'm rambling, story is not advancing, and I'm covering pointless trivialities that should be cut out. less is always more. try to focus on the core of your ideas and cut out everything else.

I would advice against the throwaway sex characters. simply by existing they'll destroy any sexual tension you might manage to create with your blueballing characters. the throaway sex characters are the reason people lose interest because they're releasing the tension you're trying very hard to build.

instead tease with your main characters, hint at what might be possible but do not give it yet. that way the earlier events build up you main characters instead of diminishing them.

 

[m00nsh1ne]

I don't have much experience with Interactive Novels (stories with choices but little to no visual components), however when it comes to Visual Novels I'd say it all depends on how well the story is received and as well as the kind of relationships and scenarios you're going for.

Example: If you are going for a story where the MC is primarily picking one girl and the end result is a full blown relationship then it's ok to "milk it" and use baby steps. Most players who like those types of stories don't mind a slower burn and even enjoy the more romantic aspects of the story. On the other hand if you are going for a harem where the MC could end up with three or more lovers than you better pepper in a decent amount of lewds along the way. Cause that's just expected with those types of games and that's what your competition will be doing.

When it comes to the quality of your writing then there isn't much I can tell you without reading it or seeing reactions from others. If you're writing is strong enough to put you up with the big names then people will obviously be patient and wait and even hang on to your plot points. However, if it's above average or below then you'd need more scenes to keep people's attention. I mean I hate to state the obvious, but most people use these games for fapping material and not as a true story, but there are always exceptions to the rules.

 

[Kinderalpha]

There's no end all be all solution here, in my opinion. Release a closed beta to some people to sample the pacing of the story and content and get feedback. Iteration is the key to design.

 

[Deleted member 3917737]

Will all 12 girls be love interests? or are some of them side characters? What type of game will this be? A Harem, A single love interest type? Male MC, Female MC, Option to play one or the other? You have to give more details. The game should be as long as it needs to be to tell the story you are trying to tell and for all the choices you want to implement.

I'm definitely not an expert, just throwing out some questions and giving you some of my thoughts.

P.S. I like your Ignignokt Mooninite Profile Picture :3

 

[IllRepute]

Will all 12 girls be love interests? or are some of them side characters? What type of game will this be? A Harem, A single love interest type? Male MC, Female MC, Option to play one or the other? You have to give more details. The game should be as long as it needs to be to tell the story you are trying to tell and for all the choices you want to implement.

I'm definitely not an expert, just throwing out some questions and giving you some of my thoughts.

P.S. I like your Ignignokt Mooninite Profile Picture :3

View attachment 1516216

Harem, Parody Incest, 4 Love(Step-Fam), 4 mainly sex with some feelings(MILFish characters), 4 Minor characters. Male Main Character. I think I'm just going to write a long rough draft the way I want it(I can always subtract, right?), then maybe put out the script (Or a portion) and get some fans of the genre to look it over. I appreciate the input. (Oh and a gold star for knowing Ignignokt)

 

[IllRepute]

There's no end all be all solution here, in my opinion. Release a closed beta to some people to sample the pacing of the story and content and get feedback. Iteration is the key to design.

Sounds like a good plan!

 

[IllRepute]

I don't have much experience with Interactive Novels (stories with choices but little to no visual components), however when it comes to Visual Novels I'd say it all depends on how well the story is received and as well as the kind of relationships and scenarios you're going for.

Example: If you are going for a story where the MC is primarily picking one girl and the end result is a full blown relationship then it's ok to "milk it" and use baby steps. Most players who like those types of stories don't mind a slower burn and even enjoy the more romantic aspects of the story. On the other hand if you are going for a harem where the MC could end up with three or more lovers than you better pepper in a decent amount of lewds along the way. Cause that's just expected with those types of games and that's what your competition will be doing.

When it comes to the quality of your writing then there isn't much I can tell you without reading it or seeing reactions from others. If you're writing is strong enough to put you up with the big names then people will obviously be patient and wait and even hang on to your plot points. However, if it's above average or below then you'd need more scenes to keep people's attention. I mean I hate to state the obvious, but most people use these games for fapping material and not as a true story, but there are always exceptions to the rules.

Lewds is what it comes down to in my opinion. Does lewd mean naked, or does something have to be put into someone? I planned for a slowish burn with some action peppered in, but the full blown sex scenes with main Love interests will take time.
Minor characters will come faster, but I don't want the MC to start being good at conquest too soon.

 

[IllRepute]

depends on the story you wanna tell. but I've yet to see anything that was too short, and anything you plan is probably gonna balloon 10x bigger as you write it. so you should probably cut everything you can, and adding 4 MORE girls is definitely bad. probably you should never have more than 3.

I'm rambling by nature, and my events get easily bigger than 2500 words. and that is only a BAD thing. it means I'm rambling, story is not advancing, and I'm covering pointless trivialities that should be cut out. less is always more. try to focus on the core of your ideas and cut out everything else.

I would advice against the throwaway sex characters. simply by existing they'll destroy any sexual tension you might manage to create with your blueballing characters. the throaway sex characters are the reason people lose interest because they're releasing the tension you're trying very hard to build.

instead tease with your main characters, hint at what might be possible but do not give it yet. that way the earlier events build up you main characters instead of diminishing them.

I appreciate your thoughts and will keep them in mind. Do you think it is possible to have minor character sexual relations without blowing the tension with the main characters? Have you seen a story that gets close to accomplishing it?

 

[IllRepute]

I can't properly estimate just by lines of dialogue. The lines can be 2 words or 20 for all I know.
What I know is that you should attempt to strike a balance between adult content and regular story. If you don't want the player to lose interest, the safest way to do this without ruining the story is to introduce episodic characters with this sole purpose. Maybe a random girl at a bar late at night. Or an escort. That's up to you. But if you want to have 10 hours of story and only 2 blowjobs, that's usually not very well received. From what I've noticed, some developers make at least one girl pretty easy to get and they use that girl freely while developing the others.

All this being said, you'll definitely find some vocal story lovers that don't mind 10 hours of story and 2 BJs, but I personally find it very unbalanced and I'm sure many would agree. Of course, the 10 hours part is just an example.

In terms of "how long should a VN be", the answer is "however long you want it to be". If you feel like you have no good story to tell anymore, you can end it there. But if you haven't finished saying everything, continue it. A VN can't be too long, there's no such thing. Don't place a limit on how much you should write, that tends to ruin stories. Ever notice how longer movies are usually better because the writer had so much to say?

If I had my way it would probably be a never ending story. However that's just in my head because I'm a dreamer(Or Pervert).
I will probably come back to the forums when I'm further along and ask again. Thanks for your insight.

 

[Deleted member 3917737]

I appreciate the input.

You are very welcome :3 and I did enjoy watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force back in the good old Adult Swim days x3 I will never forget the little cute, hilarious Mooninites buddies They were my favorite characters besides Shake xD Yay! Gold star! miiine!!! >.<



Ah! I had a feeling it was going to be a Male MC, Harem focused game lol. Yesh, you can definitely subtract what you want later on. To make it fit to your liking. That's not a bad plan. It'll definitely be helpful to get some feedback/input from fans that love the genre.

You already got some very smart people here with amazing inputs. I'm sure they would be able to help you out even more once they get the script you put out

 

[woody554]

Do you think it is possible to have minor character sexual relations without blowing the tension with the main characters? Have you seen a story that gets close to accomplishing it?

everything is probably possible if you find the right way to do it, but there's a reason why there are no romantic movies where the MC pursues 8 women. the more you have distractions the less impact the money scenes are gonna have. the more you give up before you get there the more you'll devalue the 'real' prize.

I've always thought that it would be great to make an incest house story, and from day #1 make absolutely clear the mom is gonna have NO sex scenes EVER. she's gonna be around the house doing chores, bending over, doing yoga and getting annoyed when you misbehave, but you'll NEVER see her pussy or naked tits. ever. and the title would be "Mom Is Off-limits!"

then, after several years of development, you add some obscure hidden way to hint at the possibility of having sexual scenes with her. secret clues, secret scenes. and when the rumors would get out you'd flat out deny all of it. "no man, people are just trolling you. there's no secret scene." but you'd keep dropping clues, family photos in the background, cryptic messages in strange places.

and after a long time of hunting for the clues you could somehow unlock a sex scene with her. and it would turn out that the story was about the mom all the time, it was just hidden in plain sight.

I think that could work, done right. you'd always have this weird vibe that something's going on under the surface, there's a secret none of the characters will reveal. and that feel of mystery would keep the tension up.

now that I think of it, for example back to the future revolves around very similar thing. it's clear marty wants to fuck her mom and vice versa, and while it's never written out it IS what's keeping the tension high.

 

[m00nsh1ne]

Lewds is what it comes down to in my opinion. Does lewd mean naked, or does something have to be put into someone? I planned for a slowish burn with some action peppered in, but the full blown sex scenes with main Love interests will take time.
Minor characters will come faster, but I don't want the MC to start being good at conquest too soon.

In my mind, lewds refer to sexual situations that go beyond simple teasing. Doesn't have to be full blown sex but would be stuff like Handjobs, Blowjobs, thighjobs, and the like. However if you are going for a harem story (which I think you said in another post) then you'd probably need to sprinkle in full blown sex scenes fairly early. Once you enter that genre you are up against things like WVM, My New Family, Harem Hotel, and what not and they don't skimp on the action and you'd need to compete with that for player's attention.

 

[kytee]

Pacing is definitely a thing but I wouldn't be able to help you out on that as it's one of those concepts that I don't understand under the hood but I can feel the effects of when it's done wrong. I think as long as something interesting is always happening and you aren't just dragging out your scenes to fill pages, then you won't have to worry too much about pacing. Like others have said, 2500 lines of dialogue means nothing. If you're writing this in Renpy, you need to extract your dialogue and run a word count on it for a decent measurement of length. As far as writing goes, if you write like Mr. Dots and you have a need to explain every single mundane detail for every activity that is happening, that 2500 lines of boring dialogue can easily feel like 250000 lines. That's not a good thing. Without seeing your writing, you have to judge yourself to see if you're one of those people who love to hear yourself talk through your characters or if you take a more balanced approach to dialogue.

 

[IllRepute]

In my mind, lewds refer to sexual situations that go beyond simple teasing. Doesn't have to be full blown sex but would be stuff like Handjobs, Blowjobs, thighjobs, and the like. However if you are going for a harem story (which I think you said in another post) then you'd probably need to sprinkle in full blown sex scenes fairly early. Once you enter that genre you are up against things like WVM, My New Family, Harem Hotel, and what not and they don't skimp on the action and you'd need to compete with that for player's attention.

It's an important point. I do ultimately want to make money so I can do more, but I don't expect to make as much as those games do. In fact I probably won't make much anytime soon, so right now it's kind of a passion project. I will slog on and write and see where it takes me. Thanks again.

 

[IllRepute]

Pacing is definitely a thing but I wouldn't be able to help you out on that as it's one of those concepts that I don't understand under the hood but I can feel the effects of when it's done wrong. I think as long as something interesting is always happening and you aren't just dragging out your scenes to fill pages, then you won't have to worry too much about pacing. Like others have said, 2500 lines of dialogue means nothing. If you're writing this in Renpy, you need to extract your dialogue and run a word count on it for a decent measurement of length. As far as writing goes, if you write like Mr. Dots and you have a need to explain every single mundane detail for every activity that is happening, that 2500 lines of boring dialogue can easily feel like 250000 lines. That's not a good thing. Without seeing your writing, you have to judge yourself to see if you're one of those people who love to hear yourself talk through your characters or if you take a more balanced approach to dialogue.

Yeah. I probably do tend to talk through my MC but it's hard to say if its overmuch or not. It might bled into the other characters if I'm not careful. I probably won't know that until I get some eyeballs on the script other than my own.

 

[IllRepute]

everything is probably possible if you find the right way to do it, but there's a reason why there are no romantic movies where the MC pursues 8 women. the more you have distractions the less impact the money scenes are gonna have. the more you give up before you get there the more you'll devalue the 'real' prize.

I've always thought that it would be great to make an incest house story, and from day #1 make absolutely clear the mom is gonna have NO sex scenes EVER. she's gonna be around the house doing chores, bending over, doing yoga and getting annoyed when you misbehave, but you'll NEVER see her pussy or naked tits. ever. and the title would be "Mom Is Off-limits!"

then, after several years of development, you add some obscure hidden way to hint at the possibility of having sexual scenes with her. secret clues, secret scenes. and when the rumors would get out you'd flat out deny all of it. "no man, people are just trolling you. there's no secret scene." but you'd keep dropping clues, family photos in the background, cryptic messages in strange places.

and after a long time of hunting for the clues you could somehow unlock a sex scene with her. and it would turn out that the story was about the mom all the time, it was just hidden in plain sight.

I think that could work, done right. you'd always have this weird vibe that something's going on under the surface, there's a secret none of the characters will reveal. and that feel of mystery would keep the tension up.

now that I think of it, for example back to the future revolves around very similar thing. it's clear marty wants to fuck her mom and vice versa, and while it's never written out it IS what's keeping the tension high.

It's a great idea. You should write it! Sounds like you have the passion for it and have thought a lot about it. I'd play!

 

[Ying Ko]

I've always thought that it would be great to make an incest house story, and from day #1 make absolutely clear the mom is gonna have NO sex scenes EVER. she's gonna be around the house doing chores, bending over, doing yoga and getting annoyed when you misbehave, but you'll NEVER see her pussy or naked tits. ever. and the title would be "Mom Is Off-limits!"

then, after several years of development, you add some obscure hidden way to hint at the possibility of having sexual scenes with her. secret clues, secret scenes. and when the rumors would get out you'd flat out deny all of it. "no man, people are just trolling you. there's no secret scene." but you'd keep dropping clues, family photos in the background, cryptic messages in strange places.

and after a long time of hunting for the clues you could somehow unlock a sex scene with her. and it would turn out that the story was about the mom all the time, it was just hidden in plain sight.

I think that could work, done right. you'd always have this weird vibe that something's going on under the surface, there's a secret none of the characters will reveal. and that feel of mystery would keep the tension up.

Assuming your post wasn't a joke, I think your idea will backfire. Personally, the moment I find out that the mom is off limits, is the moment I set the thread to ignore. I don't think other m/s fans will appreciate the idea of being cockteased by her, thinking there'll be no eventual sexual release.

 

[woody554]

Assuming your post wasn't a joke, I think your idea will backfire. Personally, the moment I find out that the mom is off limits, is the moment I set the thread to ignore. I don't think other m/s fans will appreciate the idea of being cockteased by her, thinking there'll be no eventual sexual release.

yeah, it's certainly possible. but the last thing I'd want to do is sell it as a m/s story and then publish everything but m/s for 2-3 years.

it's just that there's a special lure in something unattainable. we all know web is filled with porn for any conceivable interest, yet when you hear there's supposedly stolen photos of some celeb you've known for years...you've gotta see it. even if it's just a quick flash of half a tit, once you hear it exists it kills you to not see it. you may have never given a second's thought for her before, but once you know it exists somewhere, you gotta know.

and while in real life those pics are always disappointing, in a game you can take it to a perfect ending. but to work it NEEDS for you to first believe it's impossible. it needs to make you lose the hope that "nah, man. it's gonna happen. why would the character even be in game if he wasn't gonna do it? of course he's gonna do it." it needs to be beyond reach.