What is up with the pricing? Do we live in 1940s?

[Sextus-400]

Hello, My name is Sextus. I'm a 3d generalist and artist residing in Slovakia. I work a normal job in retail and do 3d on the side to help pay for my families expenses back home.
I work 14-18 hours a day between retail and 3d and most of my time is put on 3d projects. for over a year and almost 2 years now I been doing commissions I don't ask for hourly neither do I ask for money on each edit. I do my best to deliver as requested. but I been doing some calculations and people here pay as if we live in 1940s?

I have so far worked on 100 commissions with around 30 people and here is what I concluded.

I basically did some calculations and came to the conclusion that my daily need of spending between rent, food and all is 71.6 USD just to maintain a life and not even have a profit.
Every time I go to work with someone they always get shocked by the pricing of my service, for example. a model with topologies and hair and clothing and rigging and some animation for a game I charge 1000-1500 and take 15 days. for a large house is 750-1000 and might take a month. and won't dive into the comic as it's a whole other thing.

My pricing is not hourly, I get a flat rate. yet people here seem to be living in another era! on average each project takes 7-15 days with each having 6-8 hours on each day. if I charge the minimum wage I would be making far more! People keep telling me I'm too expensive! 9 out of 10 clients either want to pay a share with there 2 dollar Patreon or if have a successful patreon they want to give me a dead flat rate and unlimited changes to a project. one guy wanted "Several top notch animations for 200 Australian dollars!" others want the moon and the sky and keep treating me as if I'm there employee and asking for changes. in fact a good sum of people treat me as a paid by hour contractor or something.

I don't want to call people cheap but damn, when you expect Pixar level work with MCDANOLDS budget what should they be called?

the other 10 percent of clients are great people that I respect and they put there money where there mouth is and don't expect me to risk my time and my lively hood and believe in there vision. And to them I wish succuss and happiness!

 

[Jack Madrigal]

Well you can say it, peoples are cheap lol, but I don't believe it's malevolence, it's just they don't get what it takes.

usually as an independant worker you have to take into account not only for you to afford food but also various charges, holidays, rent, on an average of 160 work hours per month, add the VAT (21%) and you can reasonably ask 35€ per job hours for a 2000€ monthly benefit.

for a 15 days project (120 work hours) you should be asking for a 4200 € bill.

that's what I started with, I think it's a bare minimum in europe so you can benefit from your work, but also take into account your overall well being and have the prospect of evolving.

 

[Sextus-400]

Well you can say it, peoples are cheap lol, but I don't believe it's malevolence, it's just they don't get what it takes.

usually as an independant worker you have to take into account not only for you to afford food but also various charges, holidays, rent, on an average of 160 work hours per month, add the VAT (21%) and you can reasonably ask 35€ per job hours for a 2000€ monthly benefit.

for a 15 days project (120 work hours) you should be asking for a 4200 € bill.

that's what I started with, I think it's a bare minimum in europe so you can benefit from your work, but also take into account your overall well being and have the prospect of evolving.

Is there anyone willing to pay such a price in this place? It is disheartening to see people react with shock when I ask for 400-800 for a week's worth of work! I have a strong desire to leave my job in retail and pursue this full-time, but it seems that clients prefer to keep me in a lowly position.

To be honest, if it weren't for my father's illness, I wouldn't be burdening myself with all this extra work and compromising my own well-being.

I haven't encountered many individuals who are willing to pay, and it's perplexing considering that most of them come from affluent nations. At this point, I have almost forgotten the true meaning of "well-being," but I am determined to start charging these amounts. However, I wonder if anyone here would be willing to pay such a price.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

10 years ago I was like that thinking that I NEEDED to be as cheap as possible because I had the exact same fear, but when you don't have a boss, when you're on your own and you ask for 12€/h and the TWO THIRD of what you earn goes in the drain before you even have the chance to pay yourself a salary, you quickly realize that you just can't keep up at this rate. and in reality with all the taxes if you want to earn 12 bucks an hour you have to ask for 36 because there's shit to pay !

It's suck being independent in europe, taxes are fucking everywhere, but you have to realize that you're not helping a little grandma to cross the road, productions in your line of work have the means to pay properly, and if they can't afford you, there are other peoples, other productions, all around the world.

if you move your ass, work on your image, advertise yourself, mail productions (even the ones that are not hiring) in spanish or cantonese if you have to! have a portfolio to show, be proactive in your search and don't be reluctant to do anything, (I survived for a while doing busyness cards for 300€ lol) you will not only survive, but you will prosper.

I wish you the best in life, and all the "succuss" in the world ^^

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

You probably know that section of the forum called Recruitment & Services?
Go there, create a thread there, create your service and pricing list spread in that thread, add some examples of your work, and then keep bumping the thread.
Eventually you will probably land some work.
It's all about presentation and advertisement, after all.
EDIT: Actually i see you already did it (sort of lol), well, good luck!

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

if I charge the minimum wage I would be making far more!

Okay, what's the problem, then? Do charge an hourly rate and let's see how that turns out.

Welcome to free market, you female canine.

 

[peterppp]

I basically did some calculations and came to the conclusion that my daily need of spending between rent, food and all is 71.6 USD just to maintain a life and not even have a profit.

that means you have expenses of about $1500 or $2150 depending on if you count that as 5 working days/week or 7 working days/week. the average salary in slovakia after taxes is about $1100, so you need much more than average salary to just break even. that's your problem, not the people paying the commissions'.

you're asking why most people have a problem with paying like a month's worth of the average salary in their country for just one commission. what do you expect when most of them are indie devs, often working solo, needing to make their ends meet just like you? not everone can afford to spend $10000+ to make a game.

 

[AdventAnyx]

I think you just don't get the kind of market you're dealing with.
I saw a stat saying that only 5% of Patreon adult games, at best, are making $1k+ per month (or something). This means that this in not sustainable/desirable source of income for people living inside developed countries. Which probably means (I don't have data, just my inner rationalization) that the majority of adult-game creators are from poorer countries.
And $1k-1.5k dollars upfront for your work, for a person who's living in a country where average monthly salary is $1k- is A LOT of money.

It's absolutely rational and valid for you to ask for that money, but you're just in the wrong field of industry. We're poor here (in a global sense)
Global workforce distribution is a bitch for people living inside 1st world economies, because there're millions of people that will be willing to do your job cheaper, while it'd still be big money (and hence motivation) for them.

 

[bethrezen0]

What do you mean "if I charge the minimum wage I would be making far more!" ? 1000-1500$ is far above the minimum wage in probably any eastern European country, it's like 700 Euro in Slovakia or something, it's around the same(before taxes) in my country. You charging like 2 of mine minimum wages and asking why people are shocked about the pricing.

Maybe instead of "I don't want to call people cheap but damn" you just acknowledge that many people in this world are just poor and deal with it. You being an artist and from eastern Europe, i thought you would understand.
That of course doesn't really justify the complaints or any entitled behavior towards you. Because your prices are yours, no one forcing anyone to pay you money. There are a lot of other people that offer 3D modeling services for a lot cheaper.
But i don't understand why are you surprised that people complain and think this is overpriced, many work their asses off in a factory whole month to just earn what you can in 15 days with one commission doing 3D models.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

we get back to that point I was mentioning earlier, this isn't charity work, if you work you deserve to be paid, Slovakia isn't the third world, it's modern day europe, and he's working on the internet, so it's not even relevant to talk about outrageous stuff like "you live in a poor country so you have to be poor as well" kind of argument.

If they can't afford your wage go find work somewhere else, indie game devs are not rich at all by any stretch of the imagination, so they are not good clients, unless you contact bigger production like studiofow or adeptus steve, you won't get paid what you're worth. or you charge for smaller job like a 1000 for a 5 days job once a month kind of promo and you deliver a decent amount of work.

when you have responsibilities, and ambitions, shit to pay and dream to build, you can't afford to be cheap.

 

[M$hot]

Or, and I say this as someone that has done quite a bit of 3D, find a way to scale down? Do they need the 1K house that takes you 2 weeks? Or could you leave out a bunch of rooms if they aren't asked for? Or if you do make a complete and easy to modify (different floors/tiles/lighting rigs/wallpaper etc) house, can you not just sell the model in the store instead? So if you sell it for $75, it's much more affordable for the buyers, and the more times you sell it, the more you make without extra work?

Be real, you've seen some assets in quite a few games, and it's not just the free ones, though of course devs gravitate towards free and cheap. But if someone asks you for a house, you can tell them 'I have a ready made model thats $75, [link], or I can build you a custom one, but realistically that could cost $800'.

I don't deny that talent is worth, nor am I putting down the quality of work you can deliver. It's just that most devs make a relatively small income at most, and unlike an ad agency hired by Coca Cola they can't just throw down 30K on some graphics.

In summary, I think you're essentially a BMW dealer in a town where the best 99,9% can afford is a beat up 2007 Volvo. Doesn't make your pricing invalid, just really limits your customerbase.

 

[Jack Madrigal]

honestly asking for 35€/h is cheap as cheap can be, it's the minimum if you want to live debt free and put a little something on the side as savings.

when i saw comment about "the average wage in your country is XXX so you shouldn't ask for more" is not right, you got a fuckload of taxes to pay as independent.

As an employer if i hire someone for a desk-job at my company and I offer a 1500 euro salary, I know I'm gonna pay around 3000 in taxes for that employee.

and as an independent you're the one paying the taxes, you have to ask more to earn just as much.

believe me, get a portfolio, people that can afford it will pay for the quality of your work, and there's no shortage of work to be done.

 

[HarveyD]

Most people aren't aware of what's involved in the process and aren't used to paying the exact wages of everyone involved in making and getting a product to them.

As M$hot said, get some generic stuff in stores. I don't know the specifics of your work and how it compares, but for example, Daz models are like $30, if the dev even pays for it. I assume that's the kind of expectations people have when coming to you.

 

[peterppp]

honestly asking for 35€/h is cheap as cheap can be, it's the minimum if you want to live debt free and put a little something on the side as savings.

when i saw comment about "the average wage in your country is XXX so you shouldn't ask for more" is not right, you got a fuckload of taxes to pay as independent.

As an employer if i hire someone for a desk-job at my company and I offer a 1500 euro salary, I know I'm gonna pay around 3000 in taxes for that employee.

and as an independent you're the one paying the taxes, you have to ask more to earn just as much.

why you bringing up taxes and stuff? you only see it from his perspective, ignoring the people that's paying for his commissions. take a second to think about them. they too have to pay taxes the same way as they are also indies. his taxes are not their problem, they have their own taxes to deal with

you also say he should look elsewhere than people who can't afford his rates. yes, it's either that or lowering his rates/find some other way to capitalize as has been suggested, or deal with the fact that his income from this line of work won't be as high as he wants because the people who's gonna pay for it can't afford it. whining about 1940s pricing like an entitled crybaby doesn't help anyone

 

[Jack Madrigal]

No one is forcing devs to make their games, when you make a game as an indie dev you're not digging a gold mine, you're doing as a side gig, a passion project because you have a story to tell, if you don't have the means of your ambitions you should find another way around, Anyx here for exemple did everything himself out of spite and and achieved great success, but making a game didn't make him rich xD

I mean this in the most respectful way possible but indie game devs are not good clients and when you're a talented individual you don't have to lower yourself to work for peanuts, only for helping someone else to achieve their goals, once again this isn't charity we're talking about.

If you're a dev and you're complaining about the wage of the talented individuals that are working for you, you're the one being entitled, they have the talent and the know-how, and if it's work of quality then it's worth the pay; otherwise, do it yourself.

 

[peterppp]

No one is forcing devs to make their games, when you make a game as an indie dev you're not digging a gold mine, you're doing as a side gig, a passion project because you have a story to tell, if you don't have the means of your ambitions you should find another way around, Anyx here for exemple did everything himself out of spite and and achieved great success, but making a game didn't make him rich xD

I mean this in the most respectful way possible but indie game devs are not good clients and when you're a talented individual you don't have to lower yourself to work for peanuts, only for helping someone else to achieve their goals, once again this isn't charity we're talking about.

If you're a dev and you're complaining about the wage of the talented individuals that are working for you, you're the one being entitled, they have the talent and the know-how, and if it's work of quality then it's worth the pay; otherwise, do it yourself.

no one is forcing devs to pay for stuff they cant afford either. they say no because they can't afford it, so what's your point by constantly going at devs who can't afford it? i mean, you get that most devs won't pay his prices, yet you continue to bash on them for it. this makes you sound entitled

i don't see any devs in here complaining or sounding entitled, only you and the op. op made a clueless and entitled threadstart.

get over yourself

 

[Jack Madrigal]

no one is forcing devs to pay for stuff they cant afford either.

there, you get it.

I'm not bashing anyone, but unlike devs that are doing it out of their own will, graphic designer, 3D artist etc. had to learn their skills, get certification.

believe it or not but some of us went to school and learned skills and they deserve to get paid what they are worth, I'm sure you can understand that.

now if you have nothing better to do than coming at me, I won't stop you, but I don't think this thread is about me, or your anger management issues.

 

[WillBennett]

You're complaining in the wrong place, lad. Why would you expect to make such money in such a cheap niche in the first place? Smh my head frfr

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

Hello, My name is Sextus. I'm a 3d generalist and artist residing in Slovakia. I work a normal job in retail and do 3d on the side to help pay for my families expenses back home.
I work 14-18 hours a day between retail and 3d and most of my time is put on 3d projects. for over a year and almost 2 years now I been doing commissions I don't ask for hourly neither do I ask for money on each edit. I do my best to deliver as requested. but I been doing some calculations and people here pay as if we live in 1940s?

I have so far worked on 100 commissions with around 30 people and here is what I concluded.

I basically did some calculations and came to the conclusion that my daily need of spending between rent, food and all is 71.6 USD just to maintain a life and not even have a profit.
Every time I go to work with someone they always get shocked by the pricing of my service, for example. a model with topologies and hair and clothing and rigging and some animation for a game I charge 1000-1500 and take 15 days. for a large house is 750-1000 and might take a month. and won't dive into the comic as it's a whole other thing.

My pricing is not hourly, I get a flat rate. yet people here seem to be living in another era! on average each project takes 7-15 days with each having 6-8 hours on each day. if I charge the minimum wage I would be making far more! People keep telling me I'm too expensive! 9 out of 10 clients either want to pay a share with there 2 dollar Patreon or if have a successful patreon they want to give me a dead flat rate and unlimited changes to a project. one guy wanted "Several top notch animations for 200 Australian dollars!" others want the moon and the sky and keep treating me as if I'm there employee and asking for changes. in fact a good sum of people treat me as a paid by hour contractor or something.

I don't want to call people cheap but damn, when you expect Pixar level work with MCDANOLDS budget what should they be called?

the other 10 percent of clients are great people that I respect and they put there money where there mouth is and don't expect me to risk my time and my lively hood and believe in there vision. And to them I wish succuss and happiness!

How on earth is it costing you 2100 bucks a month to live, in a country I assume (perhaps falsely) has a cheaper cost of living than the US? Like the other guy said, this is what's causing you to look at this equation sideways. For 71 bucks a day, I could eat out every meal, have rent and other utilities and bills, and still have a bit left over.

 

[gedads]

welcome to the world market, last year i was looking for devs to make an internal tool for our technicians and here in my country i was asked for 40k€ without support, my associate which is younger than me went to fiver and started working with guys from pakistans for 10 times less. so far it's not looking bad and basics functionality are done. In western europe 70€ a day can be difficult with inflation even without a child, also you'll be paying taxes with that income personnaly in addition with the regular taxes your state can take while producing. I'm in france which is the most taxed country in the world struggling with denmark for first place each year. Europe tends to try to have same level of taxes so don't hope for a better future.
When the market is the world unless you're gifted, if you're just talented, a bunch of dev that costs less alltogether will almost always perform better than one guy. Honestly, i don't think it's a good idea to go freelance in that job, you should better try to get a job in a bigger company where people already have contracts and customers and a whole salesforce to be sure to remain in that state