What's up with the Patreon thing and devs?

Benn Swagger

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To put simply, Patreon aim to follow real world standard rule & laws. Even a games basically based on fantasy, Patreon disallow fantasy that crossing the line of reality standard of morality & laws. So if you thinking in reality, this or that things aren't allowed ... then that's what Patreon want.
 

Zippity

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Is patreon not allowing taboo subject matter as far as game devs taking sub donations for it?
I read a few other devs patreons and it seems like they are hinting at them not allowing it? How are they circumventing this because I would hate to go back and re-write dialogue
The list of banned Adult content that Patreon, as well as some other patron based donation hosts, is steadily growing... Mostly because they made the mistake of not thinking about what they really wanted to restrict up front, before the heavy influx of adult content creators began taking a seat at their table... It's mostly to ban the inclusion of the more extreme sexual fetishes, such as Bestiality, All Forms of Rape, Non-Consensual Activities such as Mind Control, and the list goes on... It is an ever evolving list...

Some developers are trying to work around the system, but that is no guarantee that the axe will be avoided... These companies are becoming more and more serious about what they allow and don't allow themselves to be associated to... You can see it with more than just Patreon and it's ilk... Even companies like the big social media sites are beginning to crack down on various content... So, I'ld expect to see even more types of these changes in rules as time progresses... The bigger a company becomes, the more scrutiny they experience from the main stream internet users, advertisers, and partner companies... So, it's in their best interests to limit their liability, even if it seems like censorship to some... It's their company, and they can do what they want with it, as long as it's within the limits of the laws...
 

HiEv

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If you control/alter the mind of your partner, then it's not consensual sex. It's not more complicated than this.
What drives me crazy about this is that these are fictional characters, it's not like they have any agency to begin with. Technically, every character in fiction is "mind controlled" by the author.

It's like they're trying to protect the rights of fictional beings. Nuts, I tells ya'! Nuts! :p
 

Volta

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The strange thing is the border seems to be in the physical depiction (games and film to a lesser degree) , works of literary fiction tend not to have this problem, hell Lolita is considered a classic and that is far more distasteful and far less obviously "fictional" in many ways than most games, or perhaps it's just that fictional writing enjoys it's own special exemptions.
 

anne O'nymous

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It's like they're trying to protect the rights of fictional beings. Nuts, I tells ya'! Nuts! :p
I didn't said that they are right, just explained the way they see the problem. After, I said it in another thread, it's all matter of depiction versus apologia.

You can depict whatever you want, even illegal actions, as long as you don't make an apologia for it. And games are the blurred limits between the two situations. You are playing, so you are deciding what the character do. It's because you chose it, that the MC will rape another character, by example.
The problem is here more important because it's an adult game. Not because the illegal acts are worse, but because player's feeling is different. Take "Call of Duty", it's a game, you feel pleasure because you play, not because the actions performed in the game (killing people). But with an adult game, you feel pleasure because you're playing and because of the actions performed in the game. So, is it depiction ("That's how rape happen, and yes it can feel exciting") or apologia ("Please player, fap will raping this character") ?
That's the question behind the problem, and apparently Patreon don't want to know the answer justice can give to it ; mostly because they aren't sure that this answer will be "depiction".

For me the answer is obvious, it's depiction, but I understand that people can think otherwise.


[...] or perhaps it's just that fictional writing enjoys it's own special exemptions.
It's just that writing aren't interactive. You can have feeling when reading, you can identify yourself as the main character, but you have no way to influence the story, no possibility to change it and so no direct responsibilities behind what happen. You are just a spectator of the action.
Lets take Game of thrones as example, like them. It's depiction of rape, depiction of incest. You see it happen, you can have a boner reading it, but you feel nothing when the action end. In the same times, the character performing the action don't end with a "Oh my god, it was so good to rape you, I'll do it again", which would have been apologia.
In a game, like I said above, you are the one who decide that it will happen. You feel excitement when performing the action, and you've a feeling of satisfaction when the action end. So, like I said, depiction or apologia ? Is this feeling of satisfaction here because you played it right, or because you love what the character did ? There's no way to really know it, so for most of people, it will probably be qualified as apologia because of this possibility.
 
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Ungawa

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Is patreon not allowing taboo subject matter as far as game devs taking sub donations for it?
I read a few other devs patreons and it seems like they are hinting at them not allowing it? How are they circumventing this because I would hate to go back and re-write dialogue
Patreon has a financial monopoly on community funding. Peter Thiel (libertarian billionaire) owns Patreon. As such, you get this weird sense of morality that bars adult games.

Don't worry, the same ban on this is very similar to bans on marijuana transactions with Paypal...

And that's just me getting started...
 

anne O'nymous

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Peter Thiel (libertarian billionaire) owns Patreon.
Source ? He isn't one of the creators, and neither Clarium Capital Management LLC, the hedge fund he's actually CEO, nor The Founders Fund, a venture capital fund he's one of the main manager, nor obviously PayPal or himself, are on . So, how did he managed to owns Patreon exactly ?
 

Ungawa

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Source ? He isn't one of the creators, and neither Clarium Capital Management LLC, the hedge fund he's actually CEO, nor The Founders Fund, a venture capital fund he's one of the main manager, nor obviously PayPal or himself, are on . So, how did he managed to owns Patreon exactly ?
Because he has the money for Paypal and everything on the internet runs on Paypal. Basically, if you want to run anything as a venture capitalist, you can shut down anything that you don't like indirectly. That's getting more into the stocks and such, but that's the gist of it.

Effectively, Patreon is dictated by the whims of those with more money and Paypal being the top dog in this field, presents this clusterfuck of monopoly.
 

anne O'nymous

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Because he has the money for Paypal and everything on the internet runs on Paypal. Basically, if you want to run anything as a venture capitalist, you can shut down anything that you don't like indirectly. That's getting more into the stocks and such, but that's the gist of it.

Effectively, Patreon is dictated by the whims of those with more money and Paypal being the top dog in this field, presents this clusterfuck of monopoly.
It's...
I...
That's...

No, seriously, I don't even know where a correct answer to this can start :/ You took a parcel of truth and twisted it so hard, that it's hardly possible to see it in the end.
 
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Ungawa

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It's...
I...
That's...

No, seriously, I don't even know where a correct answer to this can start :/ You took a parcel of truth and twisted it so hard, that it's hardly possible to see it in the end.

Unless you want a full discourse on economics as a reply, the main gist is that Paypal and Patreon have financial ties which allow them a corporate monopoly. This is what a lot of the devs have been facing and since Patreon is the only game in town, they can maintain that posturing for some time.

The main gist of what I'm saying is that Paypal holds a lot of sway in and Patreon doesn't really have a choice in going outside of that.

PayPal “has positioned itself as the global ubiquitous digital wallet” given the scope of its services, which to date haven’t been fully replicated elsewhere, said Brad Berning, a senior fintech research analyst at Craig-Hallum Capital Group LLC, in a phone interview Tuesday. “Nobody is really putting that complete set of applications together,” he added.
Now there were a lot of people talking about how Patreon wanted to sell to Paypal but if you don't want to understand how soft monopoly goes well... *shrug*
 

anne O'nymous

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Unless you want a full discourse on economics as a reply, [...]
No need, it was part of my studies.


[...] since Patreon is the only game in town, [...]
Far to be true. They are the first which come with regular small payments, and their now competitors are far to reach their popularity and trust, but they weren't, still aren't, and will never be, the only way to finance your game. itch.io being one among others (and apparently can lead to decent amount). Japaneses have their own platforms, and there's even some creators who achieve to have a more than decent amount with just a tip jar.


The main gist of what I'm saying is that Paypal holds a lot of sway in and Patreon doesn't really have a choice in going outside of that.
And still platforms exist which achieve to do it. I think about itch.io, already named, but also about Sponsorion, to take only one name among the few platforms which have been created in response to Patreon's ban. There's also all the, not always good looking, platforms which existed before the said Patreon's ban. And obviously all the ones who aren't directly in competition with Patreon, but are decent alternatives if you don't seek for a regular monthly income.
What was appealing with Patreon was the possibility to use a PayPal subsidiary division for payment, in addition to their apparent lack of concern regarding adult content. But now that they have one, but no more the other, they are just appealing because they are know. We will see in two years, time for their competitors to prove themselves, if it will still be true ; at least for adult games.


But, well, all this is great, but it still don't explain how "Peter Thiel owns Patreon". Just how he can try to control them, with the active complicity of Patreon itself.


[...] but if you don't want to understand how soft monopoly goes well... *shrug*
If it can help you sleep tight...
 
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Ungawa

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No need, it was part of my studies.
If it can help you sleep tight...




Far to be true. They are the first which come with regular small payments, and their now competitors are far to reach their popularity and trust, but they weren't, still aren't, and will never be, the only way to finance your game. itch.io being one among others (and apparently can lead to decent amount). Japaneses have their own platforms, and there's even some creators who achieve to have a more than decent amount with just a tip jar.
Itch.io is a very small competitor compared to Paypal and its global reach and the Japanese market doesn't reach out to any other part of the Pacific region for a nuber of reasons. It's laughable to bring those two up when they have barely the reach of the #1 in the international context we're talking about.




And still platforms exist which achieve to do it. I think about itch.io, already named, but also about Sponsorion, to take only one name among the few platforms which have been created in response to Patreon's ban. There's also all the, not always good looking, platforms which existed before the said Patreon's ban. And obviously all the ones who aren't directly in competition with Patreon, but are decent alternatives if you don't seek for a regular monthly income.
What was appealing with Patreon was the possibility to use a PayPal subsidiary division for payment, in addition to their apparent lack of concern regarding adult content. But now that they have one, but no more the other, they are just appealing because they are know. We will see in two years, time for their competitors to prove themselves, if it will still be true ; at least for adult games.
That's the next breed. So you should know the name of Joseph Schumpeter and his "creative destruction" method. Doesn't apply to the monopoly now nor anything else I said.


But, well, all this is great, but it still don't explain how "Peter Thiel owns Patreon". Just how he can try to control them, with the active complicity of Patreon itself.
Given that what a lot of devs were talking about around here was Patreon trying to sell to Paypal and making themselves look good for corporate monopoly by "cleaning up" the NSFW accounts, I'm sure your vast knowledge of economics can do the math of why Peter Thiel's name was dropped. But when all you have is snide remarks for talking about the higher parts of economics, I guess it's easier to keep that train going instead of understand the by laws of business that affect those people on the site.
 

spambot

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If it can help you sleep tight...






Itch.io is a very small competitor compared to Paypal and its global reach and the Japanese market doesn't reach out to any other part of the Pacific region for a nuber of reasons. It's laughable to bring those two up when they have barely the reach of the #1 in the international context we're talking about.






That's the next breed. So you should know the name of Joseph Schumpeter and his "creative destruction" method. Doesn't apply to the monopoly now nor anything else I said.




Given that what a lot of devs were talking about around here was Patreon trying to sell to Paypal and making themselves look good for corporate monopoly by "cleaning up" the NSFW accounts, I'm sure your vast knowledge of economics can do the math of why Peter Thiel's name was dropped. But when all you have is snide remarks for talking about the higher parts of economics, I guess it's easier to keep that train going instead of understand the by laws of business that affect those people on the site.[/QUOT

Name-dropping random people and concepts won't make you sound smart. Quite the opposite.

Unless you're implying that Peter Thiel takes a special interest in combating incest/rape/bestiality in porn, this issue would have never even reached him. This is an extremely niche issue, not to mention trivial to Patreon's revenue stream, and amounts to a footnote from the research department at best. People way down the chain would've seen and flagged this in either Paypal or Patreon. In any case, Thiel, Paypal, and Patreon are hardly the only ones who object to this stuff.

Frankly, this kind of niche and objectionable content should have never been allowed in any company that hopes to go public, or be bought out by a public company. It brings in trivial benefit for outrageous costs.

To list a few of the costs
A. No institutional investor would touch a business that deals in such objectionable content.
B. Undoubtably hurts worker morale.
C. Is just a media shitstorm waiting to happen.

This has nothing to do with "corporate monopoly" (whatever that means), libertarian billionaires (unless that somehow makes them more anti-incest/rape/bestiality?), evil banks and VCs, or "higher parts of economics" (too much weed in econ 101?). This is just common sense. And you really ought to fix that cuckoo clock in your tinfoil hat.
 
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anne O'nymous

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libertarian billionaires (unless that somehow makes them more anti-incest/rape/bestiality?)
Technically it should be the opposite. If it's our will to see incest/rape/bestiality, then a true libertarian should do what he can to let us do so.

This said, (completely of topic, so no need to reply) Thiel is just a self named libertarian. He have nothing of a real one and everything of a wild capitalist. He seek his liberty to make as much money as he want, way more that the free will of everyone, and he hide it behind the, "I'm a libertarian" thing.
Just compare him with Elon Musk, who's a true libertarian, and the difference become obvious. Even Bill Gates look more like a libertarian that Thiel :/
 

Fasder

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While itch itself allow for adult content they also refer to the payment processors guidelines. If you are in breach of say PayPal's guidelines then you can get in trouble, maybe not with itch, but with the people holding your money. The only reason you can keep going is due to obscurity, much how things are with Patreon right now.
So I wouldn't call it an alternative, maybe a bad lifeboat of sorts.

Though PayPal seems to have updated their ToS to be more vague, at least I think that's the case.
is their current "prohibited activities" which include "certain sexually oriented materials or services".
is what itch.io says about adult content.
I know PayPal either had or still has a page with a bunch of different fetishes listed. But I tried and failed to find it a while back, it might still be out there in some obscure corner of their website.
As far as I know Stripe, which is the second payment processor for itch, has a pretty comprehensible list of prohibited fetishes and the like.

Sorry for interrupting your debate, I thought maybe someone would be interested.

Have a great day!
 

anne O'nymous

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So I wouldn't call it an alternative, maybe a bad lifeboat of sorts.
Honestly I didn't searched deeply here, just addressing the fact that Patreon isn't the only one on the market. It just happened that itch was the name that crossed my mind at this time.
But, to be totally fair, would it be another name of a platform created before the ban, that things wouldn't have been really different. There isn't real alternative to Patreon, but this will, perhaps, change with the new created platforms. Actually, even Patreon itself isn't an alternative to pre-ban Patreon.
If creators stick to it, its mostly because they already have an account and the pledges which come with it. Trying to comply with the new rules is easier than switching to another platform, with the hope that most of their donators will follow. As for the new accounts, Patreon is the place where the donators are, so the place where you should be yourself.

In a way he wasn't totally wrong when talking about "soft monopoly" here. But absolutely not for the reason he thought. Patreon have a position of monopoly for the same reason than Facebook have one. They were the first one and are the place where you can reach the more persons.
If you try to go somewhere else, you'll have to be on more than one site, just because there's some who are here, some are here, and even some in this small almost unknown site. This while they all are on facebook... So, you take the easiest way and also go on facebook. And the same apply more or less for Patreon.
It's a de facto monopoly. It can collapse in just one day, like it can continue for decades.


Though PayPal seems to have updated their ToS to be more vague, at least I think that's the case.
According to the , they didn't. They always were vague on the subject. It's a massively used legal trick ; the more vague you're, the more easily you can say, "well, yes your honnor, but [this] isn't [that], so that's why we treated them differently". And what's more vague that, "certain sexually oriented materials or services" ?
"certain"... So not all. We don't know which one, but still know that there's some.
"sexually oriented"... well, sorry, but those bikini photography look really erotic for us, so it's sexually oriented ; the model presentation is just an excuse. What ? Yes, it's nudes of people during a savage gang bang, but it's concept art depicting the brutality of the modern world over the innocents, at least it's how we perceive it, so not sexually oriented ; the sexual nature is just a side effect.
"materials or services"... What isn't, in a way or another, material or service ?
It's even great for public communication. Prudes people think that it concern everything which look more or less erotic, while other people can think that it address only the most deviant perversions.


Sorry for interrupting your debate, I thought maybe someone would be interested.
No need to be sorry.
 

Fasder

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According to the , they didn't.
It wasn't on that page in particular. There was another page somewhere on PayPal that had the listings. I just haven't been able to find it since I first saw it.

Yes, being able to rely on obscurity is the same tactic that Patreon uses. I'm of course referring to the whole "Game of Thrones" is okay thing.
 

2524.

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ah and all of a sudden it all makes sense. never thought about it like that.
That male horse/dog is getting an erection, I'm pretty that means they're Down To Fuck, a.k.a consenting to put their penis in someone's vagina/asshole, whether they be human or otherwise.

I don't like bestiality and I don't want to see it in videogames but the "they can't give consent" defense is just false.
 
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Dr PinkCake

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Honestly, I can see why Patreon banned certain content. Even though it appeals to many, myself included. The problem imo is that they make it nearly impossible to gain patreons by keeping Adult creators behind the curtains. How can Patreon be used to gain an audience, if they conceal our activity to be "family-friendly"?
 

Ungawa

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Name-dropping random people and concepts won't make you sound smart. Quite the opposite.

Unless you're implying that Peter Thiel takes a special interest in combating incest/rape/bestiality in porn, this issue would have never even reached him. This is an extremely niche issue, not to mention trivial to Patreon's revenue stream, and amounts to a footnote from the research department at best. People way down the chain would've seen and flagged this in either Paypal or Patreon. In any case, Thiel, Paypal, and Patreon are hardly the only ones who object to this stuff.

Frankly, this kind of niche and objectionable content should have never been allowed in any company that hopes to go public, or be bought out by a public company. It brings in trivial benefit for outrageous costs.

To list a few of the costs
A. No institutional investor would touch a business that deals in such objectionable content.
B. Undoubtably hurts worker morale.
C. Is just a media shitstorm waiting to happen.

This has nothing to do with "corporate monopoly" (whatever that means), libertarian billionaires (unless that somehow makes them more anti-incest/rape/bestiality?), evil banks and VCs, or "higher parts of economics" (too much weed in econ 101?). This is just common sense. And you really ought to fix that cuckoo clock in your tinfoil hat.
Billionaires such as he took a very special interest in and that hasn't been too long ago. Getting something like Paypal to be corporate friendly isn't too hard, particularly when their interests line up with pharmaceuticals to shut down an entire industry. Is it too hard to believe that they'd also malign adult industry performers on a number of levels when that's what they've done and push away news reports on an under-reported industry?

And no, there's no cuckoo clock here. It's very similar to pointing out monopoly in railroads that gave you the Robber Baron Era which created monopolies in transport (trains and such) while also making laws and regulations favorable to that industry.

As it stands, Silicon Valley has a number of laws favorable to them and newer or smaller industries have to deal with those regulations. That's why my first post pointed out how the cannibus industry (being maligned by ) was a thing.

My mere point is the fact that until it gets big enough, Paypal (and by extension Thiel) are maligning a smaller industry with less power to organize their money against them. In my view, the buck stops with the CEO of an enterprise. Thiel being a venture capitalist, organized more to break companies like Gordon Gecko, puts me to point him out. Agree or disagree, that's my view. If you want something to focus on the business, points out the uncertainty pretty well:

There is a similar program of antagonism against sex work in the online space. Financial institutions like PayPal, JPMorgan Chase, Visa, Mastercard and Square have all sought to eradicate commerce undertaken by sex workers. found that the process of redlining -- a banking practice used to block service to black and Latino people, which was outlawed in 1968 -- is alive and well online.
From the looks of this, the censorship started because of someone funding for something else entirely and the adult industry came into the crosshairs within that same article. You might want to look into it and come to your own conclusions. A has no relevance here, B ignores that these companies are willing to take away funding based on their own questionable morality, and C ignores that the response is to something that was a shitstorm itself.