Where are games with modern advanced AI?

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I have been playing video games for a very long time. One thing that bothers me is how AI barely improves while other aspects of games continue to advance. The graphics of the old PS1 are vastly different from those of the PS5 and modern PCs. So why can’t developers use modern AI or even cloud support to significantly improve the AI in video games? For something like GTA VI, this could be a massive improvement.
 

LS47

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The goal behind AI was never to improve the gameplay experience. The purpose of AI is to reduce the cost of making AAA games by removing the actual designers, artists and programmers out of the equation, to keep the profits in the hands of the top execs. AI cannot improve a game, because none of the different AI models out there is capable of creative thoughts or having a deep understanding of how game design works.

And honestly given the state of AI games on f95, their users aren't capable of creative thoughts either.
 

morphnet

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Aug 3, 2017
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The goal behind AI was never to improve the gameplay experience. The purpose of AI is to reduce the cost of making AAA games by removing the actual designers, artists and programmers out of the equation, to keep the profits in the hands of the top execs. AI cannot improve a game, because none of the different AI models out there is capable of creative thoughts or having a deep understanding of how game design works.

And honestly given the state of AI games on f95, their users aren't capable of creative thoughts either.
I think OP is talking about bots / npc's NOT programs for making images....

I have been playing video games for a very long time. One thing that bothers me is how AI barely improves while other aspects of games continue to advance. The graphics of the old PS1 are vastly different from those of the PS5 and modern PCs. So why can’t developers use modern AI or even cloud support to significantly improve the AI in video games? For something like GTA VI, this could be a massive improvement.
I think the main reason is processing power. Bots basic movements have improved a slight bit compared to the old days but having a bot realistically or semi-realistically react to a players movements and actions while processing all the other code would be a lot of power and right now there are only a few spec that could come close but would still fall short.

The other reason I think is compatibility, companies will want to take advantage of higher spec systems to make their game more appealing but will still want to reach the largest market. Graphics has so far been the best way to do this, making games "pretty" but by dropping the graphics still playable on older systems.

They have tried including "bot difficulty" levels but that really only governs point reaction time and accuracy not in most cases behavioral actions / movement.

This last part is just my personal opinion but most players these days seem to want more loot for less effort and having better AI would go against that kind of thinking. I think you could get a glimpse of this when watching pvp, the reactions of players who continuously die is very telling, now imagine that but it's AI that keeps killing them. I think the backlash from the casual gamers (who make up most of the gamers) would be large.
 

Insomnimaniac Games

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I think the main reason is processing power. Bots basic movements have improved a slight bit compared to the old days but having a bot realistically or semi-realistically react to a players movements and actions while processing all the other code would be a lot of power and right now there are only a few spec that could come close but would still fall short.
I think part of Dragons Dogma 2's FPS issues are because the NPC's AI is too complex. The hardware just isn't there yet.
 

Synx

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Jul 30, 2018
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have been playing video games for a very long time. One thing that bothers me is how AI barely improves while other aspects of games continue to advance. The graphics of the old PS1 are vastly different from those of the PS5 and modern PCs. So why can’t developers use modern AI or even cloud support to significantly improve the AI in video games? For something like GTA VI, this could be a massive improvement.
I dont know for what game it was (could have been from total war), but the developers of that game pretty much said they can make the AI way better than it is, but it more felt the AI was cheating than anything ells. It's not hard to make a 'good' AI, since an AI isn't limited to the actions per second of a normal person is. Its insanely hard to make a fair AI for all player levels though, which is the limiting factor.
 

nulnil

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May 18, 2021
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The reason why developers don't use any of that is because processing power has nothing to do with how smart an NPC is. I mean, in theory it does, but to reach the level where that matters the NPC would essentially be an AI model like ChatGPT. Most games don't require anywhere near that complexity of their NPCs. Also, bots are typically designed to be predictable on purpose so a player can plan around their percieved behavior.
 

morphnet

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The reason why developers don't use any of that is because processing power has nothing to do with how smart an NPC is.
That is incorrect, While some processing power can be saved in turn based games, real time games would require A LOT of processing power to run the code for each and every npc in/on the active play field.

This article might help better explain it



"Complexity of NPC actions
Another technical limitation is the complexity of NPC actions, which is often dictated by the processing power of the game engine and the hardware. Simpler NPC behaviors are generally easier to program and run on lower-end devices, while more complex behaviors require more processing power and may not be feasible on older or less powerful hardware."

Most games don't require anywhere near that complexity of their NPCs.
It would be more like "some" games, many genres from sports to fps to strategy do require much more complex npc's / bots.
To be fair though many don't give the more complex npc's or bots, like the arma series but other do add more than normal complexity but still not great.

For example, bots in fifa knowing when to pass a ball, kick a straight shot or curve the ball for a goal, when to use a flashy move or when to play it safe etc.

Also, bots are typically designed to be predictable on purpose so a player can plan around their percieved behavior.
Again, only in some games. A lot of games make npc's / bots unpredictable to help with the replay value or to try at least to simulate realistic game play, fifa again being a good example so is Wargame Red Dragon.
 

nulnil

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That is incorrect, While some processing power can be saved in turn based games, real time games would require A LOT of processing power to run the code for each and every npc in/on the active play field.

This article might help better explain it




"Complexity of NPC actions
Another technical limitation is the complexity of NPC actions, which is often dictated by the processing power of the game engine and the hardware. Simpler NPC behaviors are generally easier to program and run on lower-end devices, while more complex behaviors require more processing power and may not be feasible on older or less powerful hardware."
An NPC that moves around, pathfinds, and attacks does take much more processing power than one that just sits around in a shop all day, but both of those are nowhere close to the processing power it takes to rendering their models (I mean, as long as they're not like RPGM sprites. Anything more than quake graphics is going to be more impactful, especially if the AI logic is optimized.)

You know, that article is worded pretty strangely. It's like how an Alien would describe human videogames to other Aliens.

Well, anyways, NPC logic only becomes a performance concern when you get into really large numbers with them, which at a certain point you can design them in such a way to be much more optimized for huge numbers. For example, instead of having each soldier in a large army run calculations for pathfinding, line of sight, ect, divide them into groups and run calculations for each group instead. This goes from 5000 calculations to 50 if each group is 100 in size. Much, much more managable.


It would be more like "some" games, many genres from sports to fps to strategy do require much more complex npc's / bots.
To be fair though many don't give the more complex npc's or bots, like the arma series but other do add more than normal complexity but still not great.

For example, bots in fifa knowing when to pass a ball, kick a straight shot or curve the ball for a goal, when to use a flashy move or when to play it safe etc.
None of that is very difficult to do, just check variables like who's close or far from the ball, where the ball is predicted to be in a certain amount of time, ect, and then do actions accordingly. This can be easily be done 60 times a second, because as I said before, even more complex calculations are done each frame graphics-wise.

Again, only in some games. A lot of games make npc's / bots unpredictable to help with the replay value or to try at least to simulate realistic game play, fifa again being a good example so is Wargame Red Dragon.
Well, I did say typically, didn't I? Bots in arena fighters, some shooters, RPGs, stealth games, puzzle games especially, are often made simple on purpose.
 

morphnet

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An NPC that moves around, pathfinds, and attacks does take much more processing power than one that just sits around in a shop all day, but both of those are nowhere close to the processing power it takes to rendering their models
Except they don't use the same hardware most of the time, the PC has a CPU and Ram and the graphics card has it's own GPU and Ram.

The other reason you know that processing power is a big factor is that the developers tell us it is. System requirements show the need for a stronger, higher speed processor with more cores for newer games.

You know, that article is worded pretty strangely. It's like how an Alien would describe human videogames to other Aliens.
It seemed pretty straightforward to me, which areas did you have trouble with? Maybe I can help?

Well, anyways, NPC logic only becomes a performance concern when you get into really large numbers with them, which at a certain point you can design them in such a way to be much more optimized for huge numbers. For example, instead of having each soldier in a large army run calculations for pathfinding, line of sight, ect, divide them into groups and run calculations for each group instead. This goes from 5000 calculations to 50 if each group is 100 in size. Much, much more managable.
It would be nice if that could be done, however it would cause a lot more problems than it would solve.

Examples:
For one, if grouped and the player triggers a response from them, you would end up with 10 bots suddenly turning, facing and firing at the player at the same time. Apart from synchronized executions not being fun it would also break immersion.

For another, in games like insurgency sandstorm, bot spawns are triggered by map location and many times multiple waves are still on the field when new ones are spawned this can lead to "unintensional" / "bugged" spawn camping and also glitches when dealing with mechanics like smoke or a grenade in a room and all grouped bots try go out the same door.

That being said, there are specific types of games that use that kind of idea like the total war series but it would not fit for most other types of games.

None of that is very difficult to do, just check variables like who's close or far from the ball, where the ball is predicted to be in a certain amount of time, ect, and then do actions accordingly.
What to do when the gamer switches to another player on his team? What to do if the player uses the call command? etc. etc.
They not only have to follow the actions programed for the encounter but also need to "react" to the gamer using mechanics.

This can be easily be done 60 times a second, because as I said before, even more complex calculations are done each frame graphics-wise.
Frame graphics wise is handled by the GPU, it's the CPU and Ram that deal with handling / controlling the bots.

Well, I did say typically, didn't I? Bots in arena fighters, some shooters, RPGs, stealth games, puzzle games especially, are often made simple on purpose.
You did but you seem to only be taking a handful of games / types into consideration.
 
Oct 27, 2022
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Seems a thread about IA in games, personnaly its not completely related but my question would be like:
why there's not still a game with those magnificient IA models you can see on ph or elsewhere ?
PC dont have this power atm ?
 
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Steuan

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AI is fairly unpredictable at this point. If a kid asked an NPC for directions to the goblins' lair, and the NPC responded about how Jared from the Subway commercials did nothing wrong, it would be terrible PR for the game company... and AAA studios especially are risk-averse.

Experimentation is usually the realm of indie studios. But they don't have the time or money to do advanced AI work, at least not yet. AAA studios could afford to give it a shot, but again, risk-averse.

Most AI applications are GPU intensive. Taxing your GPU with something else while you run a game is going to give you shitty game performance. Slick graphics sell games, so again it would be a gamble to try to make a game that didn't look that great but had all these AI features, and AAA studios don't like to gamble.

But remember that DLSS is AI. It is already doing stuff to improve the game experience. Just not the dramatic changes you're imagining. Those will probably come eventually, but they'll take a very long time.
 
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Doorknob22

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I don't think we're going to see AI NPCs anytime soon since their damage potential is horrendous. From trolls who'll fake AI NPC output to appear as if it said something racist (yes, they can do that now but now it's easy to deny), to AI NPCs talking hilarious, embarrassing nonsense and even to buggy AI NPCs completely blocking your quests. All PR nightmares for gaming studios and publishers.

It's a great idea in theory, but IMHO it will be a long long till we see them. If ever.
 
Oct 27, 2022
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so when i talked about those gorgeous models i didnt mean to made them npc in a witcher like or so but can we take those superb models and make a avn game with it,
its frustrating cause its not my native language and i dont know if i am clear enough
but basically i wanna see those beautiful models replacing the renders we have atm in the AVG
but very interesting to have your pov Steuan & Doorknob22 thanks
 
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DSSAlex

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Very few adult games are real time and therefore would benefit from advanced game character AI. I would kind of love a full broke radiant AI from Oblivion open world game, no main quest or nothing, but I think even a really simple version of that would be difficult for a small team to make, and adult games these days are all small teams (and given the economics of the greater industry unlikely to ramp up significantly)
 

nulnil

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Except they don't use the same hardware most of the time, the PC has a CPU and Ram and the graphics card has it's own GPU and Ram.

The other reason you know that processing power is a big factor is that the developers tell us it is. System requirements show the need for a stronger, higher speed processor with more cores for newer games.
There may be OTHER reasons that CPU requirements have gone up over time than NPCs being more complicated. If I remember correctly, most games use CPU's for their physics engines, which over time we've seen games use physics more intensely.
It seemed pretty straightforward to me, which areas did you have trouble with? Maybe I can help?
Well, it's just as I said, worded strangely.
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3 and 4 basically say the same thing, adapt to the player (very few games have an NPC actually adapt in a non-game mechanics sense). In number 1, the npcs should ALWAYS be following their programming, cause they were, you know, programmed.

It would be nice if that could be done, however it would cause a lot more problems than it would solve.

Examples:
For one, if grouped and the player triggers a response from them, you would end up with 10 bots suddenly turning, facing and firing at the player at the same time. Apart from synchronized executions not being fun it would also break immersion.

For another, in games like insurgency sandstorm, bot spawns are triggered by map location and many times multiple waves are still on the field when new ones are spawned this can lead to "unintensional" / "bugged" spawn camping and also glitches when dealing with mechanics like smoke or a grenade in a room and all grouped bots try go out the same door.

That being said, there are specific types of games that use that kind of idea like the total war series but it would not fit for most other types of games.
That example of a game where "when you get into really large numbers with them" is where you would apply such a solution. I thought I made that kind of obvious, but whatever.

You can still optimize NPCs in a shooter game anyways, like reducing how frequently they preform checks based on how likely and how they are expected to engage the player. An NPC that won't have line of sight or won't reach the player for a long time doesn't need to check distance as often, maybe reducing their detection rate of 30 times a second to 10. Even if the prediction is wrong about engagement time, it's still a reaction time of 0.16667 seconds at worst, which can then be adjust to be fair. You could even twist that around into a mechanic of the NPC being suprised.

What to do when the gamer switches to another player on his team? What to do if the player uses the call command? etc. etc.
They not only have to follow the actions programed for the encounter but also need to "react" to the gamer using mechanics.
I don't know much about FIFA or soccer honestly, but having the NPC react to what is going on is true for basically any active NPC. If an NPC changes their movements because the player is moving, it is already reacting to the player using game mechanics.

Frame graphics wise is handled by the GPU, it's the CPU and Ram that deal with handling / controlling the bots.
Engine physics are a similar comparison between processing power used.

You did but you seem to only be taking a handful of games / types into consideration.
I brought up more game genres than you did. There's also plenty of games where the player and NPCs operate on entirely different levels, seen in horror games, visual novels, and management games.
 

morphnet

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There may be OTHER reasons that CPU requirements have gone up over time than NPCs being more complicated. If I remember correctly, most games use CPU's for their physics engines, which over time we've seen games use physics more intensely.
There are a lot of other reasons, but the basic npc program is run but the cpu and as environments and world grew larger and could hold more the needs grew too.

3 and 4 basically say the same thing, adapt to the player (very few games have an NPC actually adapt in a non-game mechanics sense).
3 and 4 sound similar but are aimed at different aspects of the game, 3 is reaction and 4 is action.

3 Memory and learning: would be more along the lines of interactions,
e.g. if a player bought engine parts from them many times, they offer a discount
if a player stole from them they would not offer quests or call the guard on sight

4 Dynamic adaptability: would be more along the lines of actions,
e.g. if their house caught fire they would run outside and try through water on it
if they were good aligned and the player continuously acted evil they would leave the players party.

In number 1, the npcs should ALWAYS be following their programming, cause they were, you know, programmed.
This one is usually not an issue BUT many players have tried and in some cases succeeded in causing bots to go so called "rogue"
e.g. standing infront of a guard and attack a citizen, when the citizen attacks back move and they hit the guard, the guard then goes around killing citizens.
Kiting bosses into cities to kill everyone

In these cases dev's / programmers did not / could not foresee players causing bots to act outside their programming and going against the world rules. Most of these get patched pretty quickly.

There are also times where designers and programmers have maybe had a misunderstanding? and you will find npc's talking to trees etc.
There are actually some funny clips on YT about game npc's "acting up" try oblivion first :)

That example of a game where "when you get into really large numbers with them" is where you would apply such a solution. I thought I made that kind of obvious, but whatever.
You did which is why I mentioned the examples I did,
FPS - first person shooter
arma 2 can have 150 bots as ground troops, using tanks and aircraft
arma 3 can have 120 bots as ground troops, using tanks and aircraft
Insurgency can have 30-40 bots using emplaced weapons, ground troops and use technicles (vehicles)

They can also be grouped as platoons / squads / units (arma)

I didn't add this example but in large scale RTS that don't use it, wargames red dragon etc. you can play 4Players vs 4bots and have over 4000 units on the field.

You can still optimize NPCs in a shooter game anyways, like reducing how frequently they preform checks based on how likely and how they are expected to engage the player. An NPC that won't have line of sight or won't reach the player for a long time doesn't need to check distance as often, maybe reducing their detection rate of 30 times a second to 10. Even if the prediction is wrong about engagement time, it's still a reaction time of 0.16667 seconds at worst, which can then be adjust to be fair. You could even twist that around into a mechanic of the NPC being suprised.
Again a nice idea but will only work in very select cases. Games that offer multiple insertion points, offer no line of sight fire support, plus many games are also adding tech like drones etc. Not to mention players actions, some times player set out to break / pass / glitch the bots but a lot of the time it is unintentional.

I don't know much about FIFA or soccer honestly, but having the NPC react to what is going on is true for basically any active NPC. If an NPC changes their movements because the player is moving, it is already reacting to the player using game mechanics.
I was referring to your idea for bots
just check variables like who's close or far from the ball, where the ball is predicted to be in a certain amount of time, ect, and then do actions accordingly.
In doing the action accordingly, the npc would tackle an npc who is no longer controlled by the player. In the call command example it would ignore the player and follow through on the "actions accordingly" etc.

Engine physics are a similar comparison between processing power used.
But is not in comparison to behavior,
If a bot is blown up and ragdolls into the air it must NOT continue firing at the player
If a bot car crashes and flips it must NOT activate it's NOS midair
If a bot is blown over a cliff by a player ability it must not continue fighting / swinging on the way down

When you do those things they are considered glitched or broken.

I brought up more game genres than you did.
Not sure the point? Genres and the games and types of games that fall under them are completely different. You can have one genre with hundreds of different types of games in it.

Examples: Sports, your ideas might work for a tennis game but not for a baseball game
Strategy, your ideas might work with total war but not for wargames.
etc.

There's also plenty of games where the player and NPCs operate on entirely different levels
I'm not sure what you mean here?
 

nulnil

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May 18, 2021
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This one is usually not an issue BUT many players have tried and in some cases succeeded in causing bots to go so called "rogue"
e.g. standing infront of a guard and attack a citizen, when the citizen attacks back move and they hit the guard, the guard then goes around killing citizens.
Kiting bosses into cities to kill everyone

In these cases dev's / programmers did not / could not foresee players causing bots to act outside their programming and going against the world rules. Most of these get patched pretty quickly.

There are also times where designers and programmers have maybe had a misunderstanding? and you will find npc's talking to trees etc.
There are actually some funny clips on YT about game npc's "acting up" try oblivion first :)
The first issue can be solved by only agro-ing if the source of damage was from a player, who is the only one who would be intentionally attack their allies. If there's meant to be "spy" npcs, just switch their teams once they betray their side.

The second can be solved by just having the boss be in an arena that can only be exited once they are defeated.

Of course both of these issues are basically only seen in real-time open world RPGs. A player can't just "run away from the boss" in an arena fighter. It's much easier to forsee how the player will interact with the enviroment and NPCs in genres other than 3D RPGs.

You did which is why I mentioned the examples I did,
FPS - first person shooter
arma 2 can have 150 bots as ground troops, using tanks and aircraft
arma 3 can have 120 bots as ground troops, using tanks and aircraft
Insurgency can have 30-40 bots using emplaced weapons, ground troops and use technicles (vehicles)

They can also be grouped as platoons / squads / units (arma)

I didn't add this example but in large scale RTS that don't use it, wargames red dragon etc. you can play 4Players vs 4bots and have over 4000 units on the field.
I'd say 300 is where you begin to reach "really large number". Also, I think the units in Arma are usually not all fighting at once.


Again a nice idea but will only work in very select cases. Games that offer multiple insertion points, offer no line of sight fire support, plus many games are also adding tech like drones etc. Not to mention players actions, some times player set out to break / pass / glitch the bots but a lot of the time it is unintentional.
Well obviously it won't work for everything, but every game has a way to check line of sight. It's not literal line of sight, it's just checking if a beam can be fired (often multiple in case a tiny object in in the way) from one object to another with nothing in-between it. I mean, as long as the enviroment is actually meant to represent how the game world looks like, not like a board game.

I was referring to your idea for bots
It's only part of how the bots would plan their actions. Like I didn't mention the bots would make sure they wouldn't run into the boundaries of the field, but it's implied.

In doing the action accordingly, the npc would tackle an npc who is no longer controlled by the player. In the call command example it would ignore the player and follow through on the "actions accordingly" etc.
As I said, I don't know how FIFA works. An example of taking an "action accordingly" is an NPC in a fighting game deciding which move to hit you with if you've missed an attack and are going through endlag. Slower moves are often better combo starters, but obviously slower, so the NPC takes the strongest move they can succesfully land.

But is not in comparison to behavior,
If a bot is blown up and ragdolls into the air it must NOT continue firing at the player
If a bot car crashes and flips it must NOT activate it's NOS midair
If a bot is blown over a cliff by a player ability it must not continue fighting / swinging on the way down

When you do those things they are considered glitched or broken.
Physics is complex, I shouldn't really have to explain why it is, but basically it has to calculate impacts, drag, acceleration, countless other things every physics step which is usually around 30-60 times a second.

Not sure the point? Genres and the games and types of games that fall under them are completely different. You can have one genre with hundreds of different types of games in it.
RPGs are a genre popular enough to match FPS games in number. Puzzle games are pretty big, especially in the indie scene. A good number of shooters have simple NPCs too, like the Doom series.

I'm not sure what you mean here?
So in a visual novel for example, the player is the one driving the story by completing actions to progress or making choices in dialogue or whatever. NPCs don't answer the dialogue prompt for you there.

Another example is a managment game like Lobotomy Corporation. The player commands the agents around, who are NPCs. While the NPCs all have healthbar, a position in the game world, and a character, the player is not simulated apart from the menus you can use to command agents.