I haven't yet try tk17, but I know it has a long history and is still alive because of its amazing plugins such as hook5, 4x and so on, which can make it has a high graphic level, in addition, hs2 and vam also have many mods, so which one has better graphic in ultra environment? And why tk17 is so unpopular?
Which one has better graphic quality, tk17 or Vam?
- Thread starter z1000000
- Start date
I was using tk17 for few years. There are some great modes, especially with hook5. But it's still old game with limited number of sounds, with static clothes and pure hook5 hair solution.
VAM has better graphics but it's more demanding. Also it's very unoptimized, resource hungry and requires massive amount of mods to look good (same applies to tk17). Also I think VAM has some errors in light implementation, it's really hard to get good lightning in scene. But VAM models are superior to TK because of much better mesh model and much more morphs available.
Basically with either tk or vam most time you spend on looking for mods and downloading stuff.
VAM has better graphics but it's more demanding. Also it's very unoptimized, resource hungry and requires massive amount of mods to look good (same applies to tk17). Also I think VAM has some errors in light implementation, it's really hard to get good lightning in scene. But VAM models are superior to TK because of much better mesh model and much more morphs available.
Basically with either tk or vam most time you spend on looking for mods and downloading stuff.
In terms of graphical fidelity/realism, VAM > TK17 ≥ HS2.
I messed around with TK17 for a bit and absolutely hated it. The character customization options are stifling, posing is a nightmare, it's not friendly to mod yourself, etc. Though at the end of the day, it really depends on what you're trying to do with the software.
Actually posing is much easier in TK than in VAM. VAM is absolutely strange with its invisible springs, controls that move away from body, interactions between different control points and strange directions in desktop mode. There are few plugins that help to insert penis and this tells a lot about how easy is to pose and animate in VAM...
- Nov 21, 2020
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I think it depends on what you are going for. I think VaM has more things available to surpass the best graphics you can do with TK17, but with that comes on the complexity of VaM. I messed around with VaM for a few months and it simply was not for me. When I think about the best of the best I tend to compare artist who have leveraged the most of each game.
So folks like Kraegar (TK17 with Hook5) and Damarmau (VaM) come to mind. I think most will consider the VaM pictures below better fidelity, however the TK17 stuff is no slouch.
Samples by Kraegar
Samples From Damarmau
So folks like Kraegar (TK17 with Hook5) and Damarmau (VaM) come to mind. I think most will consider the VaM pictures below better fidelity, however the TK17 stuff is no slouch.
Samples by Kraegar
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Samples From Damarmau
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- Apr 6, 2021
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Never heard of tk17. I'm going to check it out because if there's another VAM, I can't miss it.
But I used VAM for a few years now.
If you want to use VAM to render and use the images elsewhere, I imagine it takes quite a bit of work to get something nice because the lighting performance is poor, so it's complicated to light a large area nicely. You can also add some simple visual effects (with the PostMagic plugin for example, to add post process effects) but I think most people will retouch their images in external software once they're out of Vam.
But if you want to make content for VAM, you can often just light a particular area, because your scene is often concentrated on one or two characters, so it's easier to light. And VAM does that very well.
It takes a little time to set up a a few good lights the first time, but once you've done that, you can save them as a preset and reuse them anywhere.
I only use VAM as a "consumer" (I don't render images, I consume existing content, modify it to my taste, and also make scenes from scratch for my own use) and yet, when I find an existing scene I like, I systematically :
- replace the character/clothes with one of my own
- I remove all the lights and use my own
- load the most important plugins to bring the scene to life
It only takes a few minutes and the scene changes completely, so it's not that hard once you've built up a set of tools you like.
Some plugins I recommend :
- Real Gaze Looker (look at player or any actor in a realistic way)
- Breathing (from MacGruber) (simulate nose/mouth breathing with a bunch of settings like 'horny state' or stuff like that)
- AutoBulger (belly/throat bulger)
- Embody (advanced POV mode)
- Life (if you want most of these thing in one plugin, but I prefer the multi plugin approach)
- Timeline (to make animations)
- ExpressionToolPlus (to make very basic expressions loop without having to do an animation)
- TittyMagic (better breast physics)
I do everything in VR and it's really easy to pose the characters because you just grab the body part and place it where you want.
You can also disable the positioning of certain parts so that they follow the rest of the body, a bit like an IK rig.
It's a real shame that this kind of functionality isn't available in software like Blender, because it makes posing very simple and intuitive, compared to posing within a 2D viewport.
Animating is very simple too, and there are lots of different ways to do it, depending on what you prefer. In my case, I use the Timeline plugin, which lets you make basic animations in a matter of minutes, and can also be used to make complex animations. If you have a VR headset, you can also do mocap in VAM by the way, but I prefer animating by hand.
The plugin for the penis is sometimes used to make it easier to pose a character (to ensure everything stay inserted where they should be). But it's rarely used nowadays; it was mostly used when people were animating without the Timeline plugin (because with the legacy method, sometimes when you reload your scene, the penis end up outside even if it was correctly posed before saving). This no longer happens with Timeline, as it restores the pose to the same state as when saved. (Personally, I've never had to use this plugin).
But I used VAM for a few years now.
This is absolutely true. And the more content you have in your installation (even if you don't use it), the slower the software becomes. Mine takes several minutes to start up even though I have a very good setup, and each scene takes several seconds/minutes to open, even the simplest ones. I have about ~300gb of content, which is not particularly a lot for VAM. Installating it on a SSD is mandatory by the way.
It depends on what you want to do.
If you want to use VAM to render and use the images elsewhere, I imagine it takes quite a bit of work to get something nice because the lighting performance is poor, so it's complicated to light a large area nicely. You can also add some simple visual effects (with the PostMagic plugin for example, to add post process effects) but I think most people will retouch their images in external software once they're out of Vam.
But if you want to make content for VAM, you can often just light a particular area, because your scene is often concentrated on one or two characters, so it's easier to light. And VAM does that very well.
It takes a little time to set up a a few good lights the first time, but once you've done that, you can save them as a preset and reuse them anywhere.
I only use VAM as a "consumer" (I don't render images, I consume existing content, modify it to my taste, and also make scenes from scratch for my own use) and yet, when I find an existing scene I like, I systematically :
- replace the character/clothes with one of my own
- I remove all the lights and use my own
- load the most important plugins to bring the scene to life
It only takes a few minutes and the scene changes completely, so it's not that hard once you've built up a set of tools you like.
Some plugins I recommend :
- Real Gaze Looker (look at player or any actor in a realistic way)
- Breathing (from MacGruber) (simulate nose/mouth breathing with a bunch of settings like 'horny state' or stuff like that)
- AutoBulger (belly/throat bulger)
- Embody (advanced POV mode)
- Life (if you want most of these thing in one plugin, but I prefer the multi plugin approach)
- Timeline (to make animations)
- ExpressionToolPlus (to make very basic expressions loop without having to do an animation)
- TittyMagic (better breast physics)
I guess it's a matter of habit. Or maybe desktop mode is hell, I don't know, I don't really use it.
I do everything in VR and it's really easy to pose the characters because you just grab the body part and place it where you want.
You can also disable the positioning of certain parts so that they follow the rest of the body, a bit like an IK rig.
It's a real shame that this kind of functionality isn't available in software like Blender, because it makes posing very simple and intuitive, compared to posing within a 2D viewport.
Animating is very simple too, and there are lots of different ways to do it, depending on what you prefer. In my case, I use the Timeline plugin, which lets you make basic animations in a matter of minutes, and can also be used to make complex animations. If you have a VR headset, you can also do mocap in VAM by the way, but I prefer animating by hand.
The plugin for the penis is sometimes used to make it easier to pose a character (to ensure everything stay inserted where they should be). But it's rarely used nowadays; it was mostly used when people were animating without the Timeline plugin (because with the legacy method, sometimes when you reload your scene, the penis end up outside even if it was correctly posed before saving). This no longer happens with Timeline, as it restores the pose to the same state as when saved. (Personally, I've never had to use this plugin).
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Well, i've abandoned TK17 over year ago and moved to VAM. Now i'm using VAM the same way as you, but in desktop. And in desktop it's much harder to pose because you constantly rotate things to look from different angles. Also your controls constantly move - ie. there's no such thing like vertical movement. You have axis but they move - vertical stops to be vertical after rotation... And most of all there's sth wrong with mouse position - the real position just don't match the picture - you pointers is on controller but the active yellow one is centimeter away...
Plugins help a lot to use VAM but you have to build your own setup. Also some plugins become "broken" after long development, too complex to use, and sometimes work even worse than at the beginning. Now I use rather simple plugins that do one thing. VAM is just strange and lot of things are not done well. The first thing that comes to my mind when I think of VAM is "almost". It almost do all the stuff good.
But HDiddy is not right. TK17 is not on the same level as VAM. Maybe in static pictures it could be similar. But VAM has much more morphs to play with to make better looks, and physics of clothing, hair, and body parts make dynamic scenes looks much better. And you can add your own sounds. On the other hand, VAM has something wrong with lightning. It never looks good enough, maybe that's why there are so many claustrophobic scenes with few lights on small area. Or maybe I just don't know how to use it. Also most "area" assets and environments are very poor quality in VAM. Just like in games from 2010
I've spent few years with TK17, now over year with VAM. Not going back. The hardest part is when your creations are better than most of other creators on hub. Then you're on your own and making scenes is just too hard in desktop.
About slowing down... Use var browser - it's free in Other section on hub. It allows you to dynamically enable only things you need for a scene.
My few pics:
Plugins help a lot to use VAM but you have to build your own setup. Also some plugins become "broken" after long development, too complex to use, and sometimes work even worse than at the beginning. Now I use rather simple plugins that do one thing. VAM is just strange and lot of things are not done well. The first thing that comes to my mind when I think of VAM is "almost". It almost do all the stuff good.
But HDiddy is not right. TK17 is not on the same level as VAM. Maybe in static pictures it could be similar. But VAM has much more morphs to play with to make better looks, and physics of clothing, hair, and body parts make dynamic scenes looks much better. And you can add your own sounds. On the other hand, VAM has something wrong with lightning. It never looks good enough, maybe that's why there are so many claustrophobic scenes with few lights on small area. Or maybe I just don't know how to use it. Also most "area" assets and environments are very poor quality in VAM. Just like in games from 2010
I've spent few years with TK17, now over year with VAM. Not going back. The hardest part is when your creations are better than most of other creators on hub. Then you're on your own and making scenes is just too hard in desktop.
About slowing down... Use var browser - it's free in Other section on hub. It allows you to dynamically enable only things you need for a scene.
My few pics:
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- Oct 14, 2020
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I could never go back to TK after having moved on to VAM. There really isn't anything you can't do better in VaM that TK does better. Once you get past the UI hurdle (it works just fine once you are used to it) just about everything is easier to do in VaM which is designed to be modded without having to have its code hacked and made to do something it wasn't intended to do.
It is impressive what can be done with TK given its age but at this point unless your computer can't run VaM there isn't much reason to pick TK over VaM.
If you really want high quality stuff though you would be better off with blender but then you have to deal with rendering times and other stuff I don't have the patience for.
It is impressive what can be done with TK given its age but at this point unless your computer can't run VaM there isn't much reason to pick TK over VaM.
If you really want high quality stuff though you would be better off with blender but then you have to deal with rendering times and other stuff I don't have the patience for.
- Nov 21, 2020
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I don't know, while VaM can clearly out duel TK17 in the graphics department from a fidelity perspective. I still prefer the look of TK17. For me everything in VaM looks a like. I messed with VaM back in the day as I did SkyRim and it was not about it being any easier it was simply different.
That said one thing that always throws me off is why VaM still has not caught on. For as "popular" as it is it is still not the goto for most of the little indy games here. People seem to still prefer rendering with Daz and choppy animations compared to using VaM. Curious on your take why you think people are not moving to VaM in droves.
- Jul 6, 2018
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Because VAM is a very demanding program, you need to have a decent rig to use it fully, and with a mandatory SSD so the assets and scenes don't take forever to open
Its main problem is that it is not well optimized, that and the user interface takes some time to get used to cause it's not very intuitive, this is why most people stick to DAZ or HS, those are a known quantity while VAM´s full potential is still unexploited.
- Nov 21, 2020
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Ahh man HS....completely forgot about that one. Honestly in the end it is all about your ability to use something to produce what you are going for. Just because something can produce a high quality result does not mean everyone would be able to do it. If that is the case we all would be using Blender.
- Oct 14, 2020
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Real time graphics still have a ways to go before they can rival rendered stuff and generally speaking daz is better known for being used for the types of games found here so people tend to default to daz for that purpose.
I’ve seen a couple games using vam to generate images/video but clearly not the most talented users so the visuals have come across unusually bland. The better vam users seem to be focused on making content for vam and not VNs. That or making vids to post on X .
There is also the learning curve and that by default stuff can really look bland in vam if you don’t know how the lighting works or how to properly set it up or to avoid some of the bad built in textures. Just look at early vam images compared to stuff now, sure there are better textures now but how the lighting works hasn’t changed, just no one knew how to use it early on.