VN Why are male MC's always pushovers ?

[Kemb]

I have played a lot of VNs, and in 99% of them the MC is always a pushover. by that I mean most of the characters push them around, and they rarely if ever stand up for themselves, and if they do there is a negative consequence of some kind or somehow you are now the bad they guy. Harem games are especially guilty of this. I mean women are generally attracted to competence, and I don't think wimpy guys who can't stand up for themselves are that. not to mention that the point of a VN is to self insert and wish fulfillment to an extent.

That also extends to the plot, MCs are rarely if ever proactive, the LI or other NPCs are the ones who always drives the plot forward and we are along for the ride.

My question is why is that trope so prevalent ? I don't think the majority of people are fans of doormat MC.

 

[anne O'nymous]

not to mention that the point of a VN is to self insert and wish fulfillment to an extent.

That also extends to the plot, MCs are rarely if ever proactive, the LI or other NPCs are the ones who always drives the plot forward and we are along for the ride.

Well, one imply the other.

The instant you design your game to offer the possibility to self insert in MC's shoes, you also agree to place the said MC as a spectator of the story. He can act of course, but his action can only be limited and triggered by information coming from the other characters. It's them, and only them, who can act behind the scene, who can gather information after long and fastidious investigations.
The MC can't because, due to the self insert approach, he can't know things that the player ignore. This while the player would probably dislike the said long and fastidious investigations.

 

[Meaning Less]

You are wrong about many assumptions in your line of thinking, starting with "the point of a VN is to self insert".

The moment you realize this is a false statement then you might already understand why not everyone needs the protagonist to behave like "you" for them to enjoy the game...

 

[Kemb]

The MC can't because, due to the self insert approach, he can't know things that the player ignore. This while the player would probably dislike the said long and fastidious investigations.

I can see your point, but learning new information and acting on them aren't exactly the same thing. and not trying to gather information doesn't make sense. for example I played a game called Ravenous recently. The MC learns that His Mother is a cannibal he asked her to explain which she didn't and said something like later, he says okay and didn't try do anything about.

 

[Kemb]

You are wrong about many assumptions in your line of thinking, starting with "the point of a VN is to self insert".

The moment you realize this is a false statement then you might already understand why not everyone needs the protagonist to behave like "you" for them to enjoy the game...

of course not all VNs are done for self insert.
but what's the point of Choices then if not to give you agency ?. why do most VNs MC's not have a face and let you choose a name ?

 

[Meaning Less]

Gameplay, Challenge, Control, Customization, others?

I don't self insert but really enjoy gameplay and dislike kinetic novels, so I have no idea what makes you think one would lead to the other.

It sounds like you have a very binary mindset which is most likely what leads you instantly to silly assumptions.

 

[Jinsoyun]

and they rarely if ever stand up for themselves, and if they do there is a negative consequence of some kind or somehow you are now the bad they guy.

I mean, have you met women? You can end up being the bad guy for blinking at the wrong time.

Just a bit more seriously, I think that in VNs, especially porn VNs, the personalities of the LIs are way more important than the MC's. The best case scenario is naturally if both of these are well developed and the personalities work well together, but if you are a new writer or if you work for an audience with limited patience and can't afford to write too much between sex scenes, then it is probably the safer bet to focus on the LIs and let them take the lead most of the time.

Personally i have dropped games because the MC was simply too annoying, but i don't have a problem even with a blank slate MC if the girls are interesting or the scenes are hot enough, but if the girls are blank, then i'll probably give the game less than 5 minutes.

 

[Kemb]

Gameplay, Challenge, Control, Customization, others?

I don't self insert but really enjoy gameplay and dislike kinetic novels, so I have no idea what makes you think one would lead to the other.

It sounds like you have a very binary mindset which is most likely what leads you instantly to silly assumptions.

you aren't getting my point, you didn't even address it. Forget self insert, there is no such thing. I didn't say the MC has to react like I would in every single situation. but even if you are watching a movie for example, there is a protagonist for you to emphasize with. now is a protag like I said in the original post fun for you to emphasize with ?.

 

[Hagatagar]

If I may quote myself, from a thread with the exact same topic.

Mainly a lazy writer / dev?

In most cases there is no story, only events that follow one another.
And without a proper narrative / framework / plot the main character cannot be proactive and can only act passively.

Moreover, a MC appears less 'rapey' when the women are the initiators than the other way around.

In 3 years nothing much have changed.

 

[ANormalIdiot]

Is that not the average gamer male?

 

[Meaning Less]

but even if you are watching a movie for example, there is a protagonist for you to emphasize with. now is a protag like I said in the original post fun for you to emphasize with ?.

A lot easier to empathize* than with an asshole in my opinion. And if anything in movies that trope is even more common, the underdog that wins at the end.

Now sure this will vary depending on the kind of game you are playing, if you move on to corruption games then this is almost entirely reversed, now the protagonist is more often than not the one acting like a perv and corrupting others to do things for him.

You just have to play games that you enjoy... Sounds like you are playing games that are not for you.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I can see your point, but learning new information and acting on them aren't exactly the same thing. and not trying to gather information doesn't make sense.

So you can see my point, but totally missed the reason why it happen that way... what was precisely my point.

Because sorry, but gathering information is neither sexy nor interesting, and it's never an "oh look, everything is explained here" situation. You find one point, then find another, and so on, until all those points starts to mean something. Starting there, why bother with this when you have characters that can do it for you and then summarize everything for the player ?
Take all the stories where the MC inherit from a magic item. All the MC goes to the library, and here he will encounter a girl who accept to do all the search for him because, as expected, after a whole day doing nothing else than reading books he still found nothing at all.

And if you look closely, it's also the case in most books and movies.
Frodo is such a doormat ! Why the fucking fuck didn't he past fifty years of his life trying to discover by himself what is this ring he inherited from his uncle ? Instead he let two old creepy guys do everything for him, and even let them dictate what he had to do with it and with who he should do it.
And James Bond, oh my god James Bond... The only thing he have to do is to go see the villain and listen to what he have to say. Everything else have been done by others, and generally reported to him by a bombshell that he'll reward with an orgasm.
And I don't talk about Intelligence Services all around the world. Do you really believe that the guys who gather the information, the ones who analyze them, and the ones who act, are the same ?

In the end, you complain about something that don't feel right to your eyes, but make all sense in regard of story writing and is done accordingly to reality.
[place some sarcastic comments here, I'm too lazy today]

The MC learns that His Mother is a cannibal he asked her to explain which she didn't and said something like later, he says okay and didn't try do anything about.

Well, me too I wouldn't want to annoy my cannibal mother ; question of self preservation.

You just have to play games that you enjoy... Sounds like you are playing games that are not for you.

He have BaD in his signature, I heard that it's a game pushing the woke agenda and presenting only weak male characters.

 

[khumak]

I think it's mostly because it seems like hardly any devs have their mechanics set up to reward a play style where the main character can be nice without being a complete doormat. Usually your choices amount to either be a pussy or be a total asshole. There's no middle ground where you can be generally nice while also having a backbone.

I suspect a lot of that is just due to simplistic game mechanics. If the game is set up to reward being a nice guy it usually boils down to MC being rewarded for just doing whatever everyone tells him to do. If he fails to do what someone wants or defies them somehow then there are negative consequences but no positive ones.

Games that are set up to reward being a jerk generally do the opposite and punish you for being nice while rewarding you for being an asshole.

It's actually harder than it might seem at first to design mechanics that are more balanced without making it too complicated. The system I'm using for the games I'm making mostly boils it down to a tug of war between being nice, or doing what people tell you to do generally building relationship vs being selfish building respect. What I kind of settled on as a simplified mechanic is the more one sided an interaction is in favor of the girl, the more relationship it builds, but it reduces her respect for you. The more selfish the interaction is in favor of MC, the more respect it builds for you but it hurts relationship.

So basically you have to be nice sometimes to make her like you and you have to be a bit of a dick sometimes to make her respect you. To add a bit of variety I also have it set up so that "nice girls" reward you more for being nice and "bad girls" reward you more for being an asshole. That sort of thing.

 

[hakarlman]

Would've been nice if the OP cited examples from existing games to support his argument.

 

[Meaning Less]

Would've been nice if the OP cited examples from existing games to support his argument.

He was most likely talking about harem, it a common trope in the genre, and even acknowledged on broader media like anime:

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:

Harem anime has come under criticism for a multitude of reasons.

First, it promotes a false expectation of relationships, claiming that being nice will kickstart a relationship with someone, and eventually, the love interest will demonstrate their affection for the protagonist. Often, real-life relationships require active participation from both parties, and waiting for the love interest to make the first move can lead to complaints about being "

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".

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Secondly, the way female characters are written draws criticism and controversy. Female characters, especially, are written with a singular goal to get with the protagonist, often sexualized for the reader’s satisfaction, and any character development is put off to the side in order to advance the plot. In real life, women have social lives and other friends, participating in social events with multiple people.

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As such, it can lead impressionable male readers to react negatively to being rejected by women when they follow the harem anime route in order to build a romantic relationship.

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[VMiller]

Would've been nice if the OP cited examples from existing games to support his argument.

You can refute his opinion. Name games where the сharismatic protagonist intrigues, dominates everyone, the plot of the game is the result of his actions, and all the other characters are puppets in his hands.

 

[desmosome]

He was most likely talking about harem, it a common trope in the genre, and even acknowledged on broader media like anime:

You must be registered to see the links

:

Lol, I know wiki is community edited, but that's some subjective nonsense they included with no citations.

Correlation =/= causation. It could just as well be the other way around, where autists with no social skills are predisposed to becoming weebs.

And out of all the people that watch anime (harem anime included), the majority of them would not turn into some braindead incel. The people that do struggle due to warped social expectations they learned from harem anime were already hopelessly socially inept.

 

[Meaning Less]

You can refute his opinion. Name games where the сharismatic protagonist intrigues, dominates everyone, the plot of the game is the result of his actions, and all the other characters are puppets in his hands.

Every trainer game? Many corruption games, and so on.

 

[hakarlman]

You can refute his opinion. Name games where the сharismatic protagonist intrigues, dominates everyone, the plot of the game is the result of his actions, and all the other characters are puppets in his hands.

Hmmmm, the closest I can think of is maybe Desert Stalker? MC is not a push over, he's ruthless and has a pretty solid Harem. Then there's Corruption, MC does some pretty fucked up stuff, I couldn't believe it hahah. The MC's in these two games are not pushovers and the games are Harem.

 

[VMiller]

Every trainer game? Many corruption games, and so on.

What was the corruption? Was the MC an insidious manipulator or was he just touching girls in their private parts and then showing them his huge cock, after which they jumped into bed with him?