Why is it so hard to write a non-extreme character? Devs?

[Zoe Archangel]

What is needed to write a good character is empathy and life experience; with the "life experience" possibly coming from real life encounter or reading.

This.

To use a play on words, adult games are often incestuous. People who lack real romantic/sexual experience will write about romance and sex based off of what they've read in other adult games. After this perpetuates for a few cycles, tropes start to become more obvious and bare little resemblance to reality. The result is the extremes that you unfortunately see so often. This distortion will only get worse unless a higher proportion of experienced writers enter the "gene pool."

 

[tanstaafl]

This.

To use a play on words, adult games are often incestuous. People who lack real romantic/sexual experience will write about romance and sex based off of what they've read in other adult games. After this perpetuates for a few cycles, tropes start to become more obvious and bare little resemblance to reality. The result is the extremes that you unfortunately see so often. This distortion will only get worse unless a higher proportion of experienced writers enter the "gene pool."

You have no idea how many times I've been part way through a VN when I decided that a virgin wrote it. Sometimes it's very painful to read/play.

 

[Geigi]

You have no idea how many times I've been part way through a VN when I decided that a virgin wrote it. Sometimes it's very painful to read/play.

You would be surprised how a virgin can write good erotic/porn story(I'm not talking about those teen cringe wattpad stories). I couldn't even tell if it wasn't for one girl in the fanfiction community who has said it herself.

 

[tanstaafl]

You would be surprised how a virgin can write good erotic/porn story(I'm not talking about those teen cringe wattpad stories).

I'm sure I've played quite a few other games that may have been made by virgins I've had no idea about. And it's never the sex itself that tips me off, it's the approach to it and the reactions to it...yada yada.

 

[ciaqoo]

You have no idea how many times I've been part way through a VN when I decided that a virgin wrote it. Sometimes it's very painful to read/play.

So read some Henry Miller's books , you wouldnt be dissapointed at least.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Sometimes it's very painful to read/play.

You think that's painful, you should try reading women's smut novels. A lobotomy in book form.

 

[tanstaafl]

You think that's painful, you should try reading women's smut novels. A lobotomy in book form.

I've read snippets. My mother used to read those things. She had at least three that had Fabio on the cover.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

I've read snippets.

My condolences. I will now assume I'm speaking to the ghost of someone who died through sheer cringe.

 

[tanstaafl]

My condolences. I will now assume I'm speaking to the ghost of someone who died through sheer cringe.

It was a close thing, but I've had a couple decades to recover.

 

[ParkGDev]

You think that's painful, you should try reading women's smut novels. A lobotomy in book form.

There's a creator on Youtube who imitates and makes fun of women smut writers and she always cracks me up because it's true.

To answer OP's question:

Keep in mind, writers write for their audience. If the writing reads like it's written by a virgin and sounds unrealistic, it's most likely because it's to fill the audience's interpretation of segggs. NSFW gamers and women smut readers don't wanna read boring regular seggs where the guy cums in 7 minutes and the girl can't spread up her legs like a professional ballet dancer.

Almost in the same sense, that's why a lot of devs resort to extreme stereotypical characters as well. It's to fit the genre. If you're playing an NTR, the NTR part is gonna take forever to commence if the NTR guy is an introspective dude with a normal sex drive. A cuckold story would end quickly if the cuckolded guy isn't a wimp and be like "Yeah screw you, I got the evidence here, we're getting a divorce."

I'm not a writer by trade, as do most devs. In my experience, I try my best to write grounded characters but almost end up making them same-y. MC in my first VN is a rather normal guy. MC in my 2nd VN is a hotheaded workaholic, a little boy-ish but mellows out towards the middle of the story. Women in my stories are mostly level headed, aside from some differences in their demeanours. But sometimes I scratch my head and wonder how else can I make them more interesting, because they seem too much like a regular joe and jane.

So you see, devs have to resort to some tropes to make their characters stand out. Look at your typical Japanese anime love interests. There's the tsundere, the childhood friend, etc, because those tropes work.

 

[tanstaafl]

Keep in mind, writers write for their audience. If the writing reads like it's written by a virgin and sounds unrealistic, it's most likely because it's to fill the audience's interpretation of segggs.

I'm not nearly as optimistic as you. We're talking about hobby made AVNs here, at best the above average game dev will be good at dev, not writing. Sure, there may be a few that are the reverse of that and are good writers, but I'd say not many. As I said, it's not the sex that makes me think that some of them are virgin's it's the MC and LI overall attitude towards, approach to, and reactions to all aspects of sex and relationships.

 

[ParkGDev]

I'm not nearly as optimistic as you. We're talking about hobby made AVNs here, at best the above average game dev will be good at dev, not writing. Sure, there may be a few that are the reverse of that and are good writers, but I'd say not many. As I said, it's not the sex that makes me think that some of them are virgin's it's the overall attitude towards, approach to, and LI reactions to all aspects of sex and relationships.

Ah, gotcha. And yeah honestly I agree with you, my pet peeve is the overly awkward MC with no redeeming qualities that the women find attractive.

But even in popular games by proper studios, they still resort to this trope, as if the story is written by a hobbyist with unrealistic expectations about attraction and sex.

For example, recently I played Summer Clover. From the get go, everyone is attracted to the office guy MC. He's a bit better than your average anime MC, but still... being kind and helpful to others isn't really a standout personality, it's the bare minimum of being a decent human, but there he is, with 4 women wooing for his attention. But at least he's slightly better written than his peers.

 

[Kuviragames]

So you see, devs have to resort to some tropes to make their characters stand out. Look at your typical Japanese anime love interests. There's the tsundere, the childhood friend, etc, because those tropes work.

Guilty.

 

[ParkGDev]

Guilty.

Does she bake cakes and cookies for the MC, is always bright and cheerful, and is secretly waiting for him to accept her love?

Hehe jokes aside, this trope is at least quite grounded. In real life, there's plenty of people out there who are like the "childhood friend". The LI in my first VN is a "girl next door" as well. For the most part, the childhood friend and the girl next door are usually portrayed as normal people with normal attitude.

 

[tanstaafl]

Ah, gotcha. And yeah honestly I agree with you, my pet peeve is the overly awkward MC with no redeeming qualities that the women find attractive.

But even in popular games by proper studios, they still resort to this trope, as if the story is written by a hobbyist with unrealistic expectations about attraction and sex.

For example, recently I played Summer Clover. From the get go, everyone is attracted to the office guy MC. He's a bit better than your average anime MC, but still... being kind and helpful to others isn't really a standout personality, it's the bare minimum of being a decent human, but there he is, with 4 women wooing for his attention. But at least he's slightly better written than his peers.

The average guy having women falling all over him is incredibly common and fairly easily explainable. Guys, even somewhat attractive guys, are NOT used to having women act that way. It's one of the simplest and easiest fantasies to fulfill. Hell, if I were to write a game I might even include something along those lines...with at least an attempt at some subtly about it though.

 

[anne O'nymous]

NSFW gamers and women smut readers don't wanna read boring regular seggs where the guy cums in 7 minutes and the girl can't spread up her legs like a professional ballet dancer.

Yet it's what most of games here are about.

So you see, devs have to resort to some tropes to make their characters stand out.

Stand out of what?

MC's don't stand out if they are yet another brainless chad, or yet another 20yo virgin who dream to be a stud. Same for the girls... Most MC in incest games have the mandatory three sisters as defined by Perverteer in Sisterly Lust. And when there's not three of them, you can still be sure that there will be the bitchy sister, constantly angry at her brother because she secretly dreams since years to be his sex slave. And it also apply to none incest games, if a girl is extra smart, then there's 95% chances that she'll also be a virgin; bonus point if she's also a sub.
After one hour playing most games you can already predict what will happen between the MC and the LI. Perhaps that it's good for those who play to fap. But half the players want something interesting, something they'll want to play again to know what will happen.
It's by having a nuanced personality, and by surprising the player, while actually being accurate to their personality, that a character stand out.

Must also be pointed the fact that a big part of the players are over 30yo. They aren't this interested by the life of a horny teenager who jump in all panties he cross. Incel dreams like WVM aren't what they are searching.

Look at your typical Japanese anime love interests. There's the tsundere, the childhood friend, etc, because those tropes work.

The ultra stereotypical Japanese date sim tropes don't works as much as you think, at least outside of Japan. Mostly because it's stereotypes that don't really apply outside of the Japanese culture.
There's an appeal at first for none Japanese players, but it's precisely because it's something new for them. Therefore, precisely because it goes at the opposite of what you said above.

 

[ParkGDev]

The average guy having women falling all over him is incredibly common and fairly easily explainable. Guys, even somewhat attractive guys, are NOT used to having women act that way. It's one of the simplest and easiest fantasies to fulfill. Hell, if I were to write a game I might even include something along those lines...with at least an attempt at some subtly about it though.

Oh totally, the average guy having admirers is common. As in, aveeage guys with modest personality, well dressed, and has his life somewhat together.

What I meant specifically is the awkward interaction to attraction, such as the guy being too comically shy and helplessly makes it obvious, like he's never seen an attractive woman before. Think of the stereotypical interaction of the guy falling on top of a girl and instinctively squeezes her breasts and runs away and she's like "Oh my..." then "Hmm... he's cute". Or the awkward guy having a visibly huge bulge, which turns women around him from being indifferent to instantly attracted with monologues like "He's so big. Hmmm I must get that dick." I mean come on.. haha.

But hey at least these are the brighter side of the extreme.

 

[Geigi]

There's a creator on Youtube who imitates and makes fun of women smut writers and she always cracks me up because it's true.

Shame on her. Women are always mocked for liking and writing romance and erotica which I understand coming from men, even though it's not written for them. Women write for women as a sort of escapism from the cruel reality of life.

 

[ParkGDev]

Yet it's what most of games here are about.




Stand out of what?

MC's don't stand out if they are yet another brainless chad, or yet another 20yo virgin who dream to be a stud. Same for the girls... Most MC in incest games have the mandatory three sisters as defined by Perverteer in Sisterly Lust. And when there's not three of them, you can still be sure that there will be the bitchy sister, constantly angry at her brother because she secretly dreams since years to be his sex slave. And it also apply to none incest games, if a girl is extra smart, then there's 95% chances that she'll also be a virgin; bonus point if she's also a sub.
After one hour playing most games you can already predict what will happen between the MC and the LI. Perhaps that it's good for those who play to fap. But half the players want something interesting, something they'll want to play again to know what will happen.
It's by having a nuanced personality, and by surprising the player, while actually being accurate to their personality, that a character stand out.

Must also be pointed the fact that a big part of the players are over 30yo. They aren't this interested by the life of a horny teenager who jump in all panties he cross. Incel dreams like WVM aren't what they are searching.




The ultra stereotypical Japanese date sim tropes don't works as much as you think, at least outside of Japan. Mostly because it's stereotypes that don't really apply outside of the Japanese culture.
There's an appeal at first for none Japanese players, but it's precisely because it's something new for them. Therefore, precisely because it goes at the opposite of what you said above.

I must be missing some context of the discussion, then. My interpretation hinges on the point that devs are marketing their games to players who play only for the lewds. I was talking about the devs that resort to extreme stereotypes, not the more modest devs. That's what I meant by writers writing specifically to fullfil their target audience (the lewd-focused audience), or that the Japanese tropes are marketed to Japanese players and Western weebs.

Otherwise, if you're talking about the other side of the audience (the story-first audience) then, yeah I agree with you, because I myself make stories for the more grounded audience. This side does not care about characters standing out because of over-the-top stereotypical personalities. They want to play as normal grounded people with interesting stories.

Shame on her. Women are always mocked for liking and writing romance and erotica which I understand coming from men. They don't write for them. They write for women as a sort of escapism from reality of life and men.

I should've worded it better. What I meant was she poked fun at them in a lighthearted way. It's a very self-aware thing where everyone in the comment agrees but admits they read those stuff anyway, and she herself writes that way too.

 

[Geigi]

I must be missing some context of the discussion, then. My interpretation hinges on the point that devs are marketing their games to players who play only for the lewds. That kind of target audience. That's what I meant by writers writing specifically to fullfil their target audience (the lewd-focused audience), or that the Japanese tropes are marketed to Japanese players and Western weebs.

Otherwise, if you're talking about the other side of the audience (the story-first audience) then, yeah I agree with you, because I myself make stories for the more grounded audience. This side does not care about characters standing out because of over-the-top stereotypical personalities. They want to play as normal grounded people with interesting stories.


I should've worded it better. What I meant was she poked fun at them in a lighthearted way. It's a very self-aware thing where everyone in the comment agrees but admits they read those stuff anyway, and she herself writes that way too.

Sadly, some women shame other women too. Fifty Shades of Grey was a Twilight fanfiction, but the writer got an idea to turn it into an original story. It became popular. On one side, you have women who liked it and are asking for more, the other half of them cringed. 365 Days for those women is said to be the worst wattpad story ever.