Why no crypto?

[Dir.Fred]

I'm pretty new here. Still looking around and working out what the norms are.

I assumed this place would be rife with crypto. It seems like such a natural fit what with all the privacy, speed,reliability,non-reversibility etc. etc. of Bitcoin, Litecoin, Eth etc. - not to mention the anonymity of Monero et al.

But it's all Patroen(!!!???) and Subscribestar(!?)

Why let a third party determine what you produce and how you get paid? I am at a loss.

I feel like my spaceship has landed on an advanced Earth-like planet where noone has yet invented fishing.

Bitcoin does not tell you what to produce; it can not arbitrarily withhold your income; it's one of the slower coins and it's still way quicker than most bank cleared payments. You could even do funky things like have a unique address per supporter so you know which one paid what and when - but without knowing anything else about them. Or maybe have a single custom deposit address where supporters could see in real-time how far to the next goal etc.

I don't want to sound like I'm shilling or trying to convert people here - I have no dog in this fight* - but I do understand the cryptocoinz and do not understand their absence here.

Personally, I know I would have already sent crypto payments to several developers whose content is posted here.

Anyway, not looking to change the world - but my confusion and curiosity has got the better of me, hence the post.

P.S. As a non-zero hodler, I guess I technically do have a dog in this fight - but even if you all went cryptocrazy tomorrow, my 'portfolio' wouldn't notice.

 

[freedom.call]

Patreon doesn't decide anything, as for me the consumer it's easy with Patreon/paypal. I don't know anything about crypto tbh.

 

[F4C430]

Among the hundred "nopy is dead" threads, there was some discussion about crypto. If i remember correctly, the counter arguments were because 1) crypto isn't stable; the price fluctuates, 2) you still need to convert it to a currency that can pay the bills, 3) you need a payment processor that handles crypto.

I'm not familiar with crypto as a currency myself (i only know it as an investment), but i'm guessing there's a lot of challenges in it that don't make it an easy and reliable option to implement. It would help if people knowledgeable about the implementation would talk more about that so that the rest of us can know if those hurdles are imaginary or real.

 

[GreenGobbo]

don't really care one way or the other about crypto tbh, but whenever it comes up, I remember that guy ^^^^.

 

[aura-dev]

A player asked me if he could send me bitcoin to support me. Since I have a legit business, I need to pay taxes/VAT and reading up on it, I have no idea on how to handle crypto without ending up with massive load of paperwork.

 

[Dir.Fred]

Patreon doesn't decide anything

Of course it does. That's a baffling statement to make. I guess you mean it doesn't decide anything for you, the consumer. But content producers have to accommodate their rules and restrictions - hence why some move on to SubscribeStar, which I understand has slightly looser regs. Consumers go to where the content is.

I understand there's a modest consumer barrier to entry with crypto - but it's real, real low these days. It's nearly 2022. If you don't know how to get a crypto wallet, you really, really, really may wanna think about that. No judgement - just advice, which can be taken or left. I think I heard somewhere that in some countries PayPal itself already supports Bitcoin - so there's plenty of ways to get started.

And there was once a time when people didn't know anything about Patreon or Paypal. Hashtag justsayin' etc.

Among the hundred "nopy is dead" threads, there was some discussion about crypto. If i remember correctly, the counter arguments were because 1) crypto isn't stable; the price fluctuates, 2) you still need to convert it to a currency that can pay the bills, 3) you need a payment processor that handles crypto.

Thanks for the summary. I feel obliged to rebutt for anyone passing by:
1) Doesn't matter unless you're holding longterm - there's also more stable coins and third parties that absorb that if it's a big deal for you (usually not at small scale)
2) Sure - get an exchange account. Kraken, Coinbase whatever - just send it your received coins and cash out in whatever fiat currency you live with.
3) No you don't - see above. You just need to download or buy a hardware wallet (e.g. Trezor) and to tell people the address. You receive coins directly and send them to your exchange account - it's actually easier than Patreon+banking in many ways.

I realize I probably do now sound like I'm trying to convert. But if you saw people using pen and paper spreadsheets because they didn't know anything about those new fangled computery things (and it was > 1990) you'd probably feel compelled to mention software spreadsheets were a thing.

 

[moskyx]

Let's assume this is the main site where you can ad your game and try to get some paying supporters. There are more than 25k people connected to this forum, right now, from all over the world. Obviously not all of them are going to support your game. About the rest, how many of them do you think are familiar with crypto and, of those, how many of them do you think are using the same crypto you want to use. Now go figure how many of those 25k people have a Paypal account and/or a Visa card and might trust on a clean, well-established site as Patreon. It's a no brainer, really.

Privacy, speed, reliability, non-reversibility etc. etc, oh yeah. But money, though?

 

[Dir.Fred]

A player asked me if he could send me bitcoin to support me. Since I have a legit business, I need to pay taxes/VAT and reading up on it, I have no idea on how to handle crypto without ending up with massive load of paperwork.

This is not an endorsement - but I know of several legit businesses using Bitpay and other similar types of third party provider. They just send you $$ like Patreon or Subscribestar or anything else. The only difference for you - I think - would be another income stream and having a bitcoin address to publish for your supporters to use.

 

[F4C430]

I understand there's a modest consumer barrier to entry with crypto - but it's real, real low these days. It's nearly 2022.

I know what you mean but the reality of it is that for most people it's still new and unknown. I have people around me IRL who still handle things like splitting cost among friends in physical paper money instead of using a mobile app designed for that. I'm not arguing against you, just saying that most people don't have your understanding of it, myself included. I'm open to the idea but i lack understanding to trust it.

 

[albul]

Crypto is trash.

 

[Kionashi]

Crypto is fine... but a lot of people don't care to understand it, they have jobs and other things to worry about, and there are right now a lot of developers who are struggling even with Paypal/Patreon to find enough supporters to cover their costs, so adding another layer of complexity would make even harder to gather enough support.


One day crypto will be mainstream and using it as a main avenue for gathering support would be doable but that day is not today.

 

[claus001]

Oh boy you hit the nail perfectly.

I have pointed this out as often as I could: bitcoin is unbannable and censorable. There are games in this forum which have bestiality, loli and incest content and they are always struggling with patreon and have to censor themselves in retarded ways such as making MS's sister a roommate and so on.

Why no bitcoin you ask? Because the TV says bitcoin bad! I wish this was trolling, but if you own bitcoin you are still very early as the mainstream has not yet accepted it. Opening a bitcoin wallet is free, has no maintenance cost and donations are tax-free. This is literally the best deal you can have in your life, and despite bitcoin hitting soon 100k$ you still are very early in that game. I bough my first bitcoins in late 2018, you can calculate was it worth it or not.

 

[redknight00]

Because all 10 people in the forum who use it can't sustain a million dollar industry.

 

[Dir.Fred]

So it's clear there's a lot of misunderstanding and "what's this you say?" going on.

So, dear content producers, here's a quick'n'dirty walkthrough:

The Sub Route:
Sign up to a third party that takes Bitcoin e.g. Bitpay (this will be very similar to your experience signing up to Patreon/SS)
Advertise the address they give you to your supporters and enjoy the extra income on your statement.
That's it btw.

The Dom Route:
Buy a hardware wallet e.g. Trezor, Ledger etc. and set it up (10mins)
Sign up to an exchange e.g. Coinbase, Kraken etc. (again, much like signing up to Patreon/SS)
Advertise your wallet addresses as you see fit and watch the coins come in.
Either (or both):
1) Take coins to nearby ATM and withdraw cash. No paper trail.
2) Send coins to exchange, sell and withdraw $$ to bank account complete with helpful paper trail for accountant

There can of course be more detail and options and levels of privacy and anonymity (see Monero etc.) but at the base level that little walkthrough is, I think, really all you need to get started. Crypto mystery debunked.

I'm just trying to be helpful. I've said my bit so I'll try not to rant any more.


But please, people, for your own sake's - you just gotta try the fish.

 

[bioriot]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Patreon and Subscribestar aren't just payment processors, they're subscription services which is huge because consumers are terrible at intuiting how much something costs them when it's spread out. They're also storefronts and have their own brand, which for better or worse gives the impression that there is some sort of quality control going on behind the scenes.

 

[Dir.Fred]

...They're also storefronts and have their own brand, which for better or worse gives the impression that there is some sort of quality control going on behind the scenes.

That's an excellent point. Nothing to stop creators slapping their Bitcoin address on a product also hosted on Patreon/SS tho.

 

[moskyx]

So it's clear there's a lot of misunderstanding and "what's this you say?" going on.

So, dear content producers, here's a quick'n'dirty walkthrough:

The Sub Route:
Sign up to a third party that takes Bitcoin e.g. Bitpay (this will be very similar to your experience signing up to Patreon/SS)
Advertise the address they give you to your supporters and enjoy the extra income on your statement.
That's it btw.

The Dom Route:
Buy a hardware wallet e.g. Trezor, Ledger etc. and set it up (10mins)
Sign up to an exchange e.g. Coinbase, Kraken etc. (again, much like signing up to Patreon/SS)
Advertise your wallet addresses as you see fit and watch the coins come in.
Either (or both):
1) Take coins to nearby ATM and withdraw cash. No paper trail.
2) Send coins to exchange, sell and withdraw $$ to bank account complete with helpful paper trail for accountant

There can of course be more detail and options and levels of privacy and anonymity (see Monero etc.) but at the base level that little walkthrough is, I think, really all you need to get started. Crypto mystery debunked.

I'm just trying to be helpful. I've said my bit so I'll try not to rant any more.


But please, people, for your own sake's - you just gotta try the fish.

You still don't get it. You are developing a game, not trading cryptos. Your goal is not changing how the world works, you just want as many players as possible to give you as much money as possible. There are tons of players with no cryptos who use Visa, Mastercard and Paypal. There are just a few people who use crypto - people who most probably also have Visa, Mastercard and Paypal. There are a couple of well-known platforms that your potential audience know and trust where you can get cash money from all those people. Why would you, an amateur game developer, go through all that hassle in order to get just a few more bucks from some people who can easily support you using the common methods. If you're already into it, cool, you'd probably set an alternative method for that minority willing to pay you in crypto. But the world is not running on crypto, simple as that.

 

[Dir.Fred]

With respect sir, it is not I who doesn't "get it".

I understand everything you say about mainstream payment solutions being all cool and comfy.

I believe the "all that hassle" you refer to is debunked by my, only partially tongue-in-cheek, 'walkthrough'.

You're telling me that an existing Patreon/SS-using developer wouldn't want to spend an hour or two doing "all that" and adding an address to their intro screen?

Additional income for just that? Seems to me that anything over a few hundred bucks would've instantly made that worthwhile.

And I can't be the only person with crypto that I want to send developers here right now. Dammit I'm still ranting. Sorry.

 

[aura-dev]

With respect sir, it is not I who doesn't "get it".

I understand everything you say about mainstream payment solutions being all cool and comfy.

I believe the "all that hassle" you refer to is debunked by my, only partially tongue-in-cheek, 'walkthrough'.

You're telling me that an existing Patreon/SS-using developer wouldn't want to spend an hour or two doing "all that" and adding an address to their intro screen?

Additional income for just that? Seems to me that anything over a few hundred bucks would've instantly made that worthwhile.

And I can't be the only person with crypto that I want to send developers here right now. Dammit I'm still ranting. Sorry.

It's a matter opening up the possibility to earn more money vs the risk that you are doing something wrong and have to pay many times more money in fines. I'm running a business where I make porn games. I need my business to be as clean as possible as I'm unlikely to face much goodwill if I get in trouble.

Also, for most patreon developers splitting streams of income isn't favorable. Having patrons tends to attract more patrons so allowing for additional income streams can actually lower your overall income. I know of devs who deliberately raise their prices on itch.io to encourage players to rather spend money on patreon.

 

[freedom.call]

Of course it does. That's a baffling statement to make. I guess you mean it doesn't decide anything for you, the consumer. But content producers have to accommodate their rules and restrictions - hence why some move on to SubscribeStar, which I understand has slightly looser regs. Consumers go to where the content is.

Those are their rules, you either accept them or you don't. Same as everywhere else in society. I wish they were more lenient but that's basically the payment processors pushing them.