HTML X-Change™ Life [v0.21.3] [Aphrodite]

[Melphy]

Assuming this is intended, as I believe it probably is, perhaps the wording of the demo description could be made clearer to indicate that this is effectively a gamble (beyond the possibility of messing up the demo itself) to avoid confusion.

Yeah, I think that's the key thing that would avoid the ambiguity, just something that indicates that doing the demo could wildly change how many pills you sell would likely tidy up any confusion nicely. I'll admit, I've rarely been "punished" like this as I only usually do demos if I *have* to, so I don't typically have the before and after sale number to compare, but a simple note somewhere early on about the risks, such as they are, if intended would permit more informed choice on when someone has the option to engage with the system.

I guess the one down side is that it means that if you got a large sale you are now actively disincentivized from doing a demo, because the RNG odds could result in you making less money even with the boosted commission, so choosing to do a demo on a large order is just, objectively, a bad decision now? Dunno if that's a desirable outcome.

 

[DavDR]

You are getting a boost to the commission rate though, you simply failed to sell as many as you previously had the chance to.

Say you have a base rate of 16% commission, and you had a lucky phone call, where the person on the other end representing a company of 20 employees decides to buy 40 pills, you'll make 16% of 40, i.e. 6.4x whatever value it is for that pill if you take that deal. If you opt instead to do a demonstration of the product and only sell the normally expected 20 pills as a result, you end up with 20% of 20, i.e. 4x the pill value. You still got a bigger rate in this case (20% as opposed to 16%) despite earning 2.4x the pill's value less than you could have had you taken the deal originally offered.

Is this realistic? I think so, you've given them a chance to re-evaluate overnight (or longer depending on how soon you schedule it), they may have had a meeting about it internally since, and the person you do the demo for may not even be the person you spoke to on the phone. Assuming this is intended, as I believe it probably is, perhaps the wording of the demo description could be made clearer to indicate that this is effectively a gamble (beyond the possibility of messing up the demo itself) to avoid confusion.

This line of argument could go on for weeks, going back and forth about what's 'realistic'. It's a pointless argument in games. If this game universe were realistic they would have invented an effective hangover pill or even a sobriety pill, given this societies chemical and genetic technology. So let's not hear anymore pointless arguments about reality.

The point is Dev's who hold out a specific reward for a given task and then arbitrarily snatch it away again. I'm noticing this a lot in games lately and I don't like it.

 

[TheFamilyDog]

The point is Dev's who hold out a specific reward for a given task and then arbitrarily snatch it away again. I'm noticing this a lot in games lately and I don't like it.

You do realize that the whole point of pill demos is to present the 'naughty" side of the x-pill business. Any money one gets is secondary due to your character not having to worry about being homeless or hungry. In one of my games, I played a secretary for like months and had little money due to that. And I still was able to go to do things in the game, buy some choice outfits, and rent movies. Having no cash in this game does not get one into the game over screen like others I've played. In fact, it could be fun living paycheck to paycheck (as in spending all the money you made that week) and getting a game award for it.

 

[tooldev]

You do realize that the whole point of pill demos is to present the 'naughty" side of the x-pill business. Any money one gets is secondary due to your character not having to worry about being homeless or hungry. In one of my games, I played a secretary for like months and had little money due to that. And I still was able to go to do things in the game, buy some choice outfits, and rent movies. Having no cash in this game does not get one into the game over screen like others I've played. In fact, it could be fun living paycheck to paycheck (as in spending all the money you made that week) and getting a game award for it.

I think you misunderstood the point. Since this is a game, the earning money part becomes a mechanic. If a mechanic is no fun it ruins the overall experience. If the game in general would apply random success to actions, nobody would be surprised and more accepting. But when a lot of effort is made to have a sales function where the outcome depends on you choosing the right product and use the correct arguments to raise your sales success, then the success cannot be random all the sudden. It eliminates earlier steps of the mechanic or at least is not rewarding anymore.

 

[BushedBear]

After reading through Goblin's Pet and* being impressed with how descriptive and naughty the writing was, I'm hoping we get deeper relationships we can follow in this game. Would love to see something deeper as a guy if you go on to dates Mariselle, Alexia, or some of the bar girls. Same with the female side since that seems to be the focus would love to see stepdads relationship, Bruce, and others develop with in depth writing and outcomes like full on dates, leading to settling down potentially by the end if you wanted. Even if you care more about the business end lots of paths could branch from that while you build your career. Lots of potential in this game though loving what's here so far.

 

[DavDR]

You do realize that the whole point of pill demos is to present the 'naughty" side of the x-pill business. Any money one gets is secondary due to your character not having to worry about being homeless or hungry. In one of my games, I played a secretary for like months and had little money due to that. And I still was able to go to do things in the game, buy some choice outfits, and rent movies. Having no cash in this game does not get one into the game over screen like others I've played. In fact, it could be fun living paycheck to paycheck (as in spending all the money you made that week) and getting a game award for it.

Yes, and this may come as a shock to you, but everyone else who plays this game isn't you and they may not choose to play it the way you do. Either way when making the sale a specific number is mentioned and agreed too. The way I play the game is I won't do demo's for pills under a certain return, and I only do demos when the customer request it.

 

[miyuki25]

I think you misunderstood the point. Since this is a game, the earning money part becomes a mechanic. If a mechanic is no fun it ruins the overall experience. If the game in general would apply random success to actions, nobody would be surprised and more accepting. But when a lot of effort is made to have a sales function where the outcome depends on you choosing the right product and use the correct arguments to raise your sales success, then the success cannot be random all the sudden. It eliminates earlier steps of the mechanic or at least is not rewarding anymore.

The point is Dev's who hold out a specific reward for a given task and then arbitrarily snatch it away again. I'm noticing this a lot in games lately and I don't like it.

Yes, and this may come as a shock to you, but everyone else who plays this game isn't you and they may not choose to play it the way you do. Either way when making the sale a specific number is mentioned and agreed too. The way I play the game is I won't do demo's for pills under a certain return, and I only do demos when the customer request it.

When taking optional demos, a number was indeed offered, but which you refused by opting to instead do said demonstration. It sounds as though you are playing the game in such a way that you only ever take the optional demos when they're at their highest (absolute) risk, and lowest (relative) reward, and then compaining when that strategy doesn't work out for you. If you instead only take optional demos on sales where there are a lot of employees but the buyer offers the expected or even a low-end number of pills relative to employees, i.e. when doing so is at the lowest (relative) risk and highest (absolute) reward, you will have much better outcomes.

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[DavDR]

When taking optional demos, a number was indeed offered, but which you refused by opting to instead do said demonstration. It sounds as though you are playing the game in such a way that you only ever take the optional demos when they're at their highest (absolute) risk, and lowest (relative) reward, and then compaining when that strategy doesn't work out for you. If you instead only take optional demos on sales where there are a lot of employees but the buyer offers the expected or even a low-end number of pills relative to employees, i.e. when doing so is at the lowest (relative) risk and highest (absolute) reward, you will have much better outcomes.

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What a pointless post, and what does it have to do with the discussion we were having?

You are also miles off on how I play the sales game. I always choose to end the sales pitch at between 78% and 88% acceptance, which according to the wiki should give a good chance for a sale without a demo. If the customer demands a demo I then decide if the sale is worth my characters time, if not then I either post it to the board or refuse the sale. I NEVER take the option to give a demo.

 

[miyuki25]

Sounds like nothing is being "arbitrarily snatched away" from you then.

 

[Nauticalius]

Okay, but it is absolutely a bug because the in-game description doesn't suggest any sort of re-roll or time pressures or anything like you mentioned, it just says you get a 25% boost to the commission rate, meaning that $4k I should have gotten should have gone up by a few hundred dollars rather than down several thousand, especially considering I fucked the dude I was doing business with.

NO. It is NOT a bug.

That is how a COMISSION works.

The company sells $4k worth of pills. Because you have a 25% comission, 25% of that is yours to take home, while the company pockets the remaining 75%.

So, if you sell $4k worth of pills, with a 25% comission? You would only get $1k. Oh, look at that - exactly how much the game gave you...

 

[Nexus_07]

Yeah, I think that's the key thing that would avoid the ambiguity, just something that indicates that doing the demo could wildly change how many pills you sell would likely tidy up any confusion nicely. I'll admit, I've rarely been "punished" like this as I only usually do demos if I *have* to, so I don't typically have the before and after sale number to compare, but a simple note somewhere early on about the risks, such as they are, if intended would permit more informed choice on when someone has the option to engage with the system.

I guess the one down side is that it means that if you got a large sale you are now actively disincentivized from doing a demo, because the RNG odds could result in you making less money even with the boosted commission, so choosing to do a demo on a large order is just, objectively, a bad decision now? Dunno if that's a desirable outcome.

Curious! Always took sales as being risky sales and so, final contract signed depended on my sales performance. Actually, while doing the demo fo "Dumb Bitch" for many times the guy enjoyed fucking with my character and then told he wouldn't buy at all.

Never cared to much about it. Just kept making enough money to keep going and enjoying the world.

 

[DavDR]

Sounds like nothing is being "arbitrarily snatched away" from you then.

Once again you are sadly informed of the game that you seem to like to tell everyone how to play.

There is a phenomenon in the game. Nobody knows if it's a bug or not, probably not. Let's say you get a lead for 50 pills. After doing the sales pitch, and after that a lengthy demo, you succeed with the sale only to be told that the customer is purchasing 22 pills.

This is what I meant by holding out a reward only to arbitrarily snatch it away.

 

[God of Debauchery]

NO. It is NOT a bug.

That is how a COMISSION works.

The company sells $4k worth of pills. Because you have a 25% comission, 25% of that is yours to take home, while the company pockets the remaining 75%.

So, if you sell $4k worth of pills, with a 25% comission? You would only get $1k. Oh, look at that - exactly how much the game gave you...

Hey dumbass, the sale was for around $11k and MY CUT was the $4k, THEN I did the demo and the sale became significantly less and my cut also became significantly less.

 

[stochastic]

Hey dumbass, the sale was for around $11k and MY CUT was the $4k, THEN I did the demo and the sale became significantly less and my cut also became significantly less.

I know it's not the F95 way (typing every message with just your middle fingers and accusing everyone else of being a worthless milking shill) and I do want to respect the culture here, but as an alternative you could just let Aphrodite know that the pill quantity rerolls for voluntary sales demos seem a little off and maybe that mechanic would be more compelling if the calculation was tweaked.

Or you guys can be mad at each other, that's fine too I guess.

 

[God of Debauchery]

I know it's not the F95 way (typing every message with just your middle fingers and accusing everyone else of being a worthless milking shill) and I do want to respect the culture here, but as an alternative you could just let Aphrodite know that the pill quantity rerolls for voluntary sales demos seem a little off and maybe that mechanic would be more compelling if the calculation was tweaked.

Or you guys can be mad at each other, that's fine too I guess.

I mean my original post was literally just trying to figure out if anyone else had run into the bug, it was other people who got their panties in a twist or even just flat out failed to comprehend what was going on.

 

[tooldev]

Curious! Always took sales as being risky sales and so, final contract signed depended on my sales performance. Actually, while doing the demo fo "Dumb Bitch" for many times the guy enjoyed fucking with my character and then told he wouldn't buy at all.

Never cared to much about it. Just kept making enough money to keep going and enjoying the world.

To be fair - that is not how sales works for a real sales person. Only desperate car dealers would act that way, a 'proper' sales person knows the value of things which include ones own dignity. Since you usually deal with customers more than once you would never ever make such dumb deals, since you can never get back from that low.

 

[miyuki25]

This is what I meant by holding out a reward only to arbitrarily snatch it away.

The point of a demo is so a buyer can assess the value of product to their business, of course they can decide to purchase a different amount having seen the product in action. Do you feel equally put upon when a lead for 80 only asks to buy 40 after the phone call?

 

[cache-coherent]

I mean my original post was literally just trying to figure out if anyone else had run into the bug, it was other people who got their panties in a twist or even just flat out failed to comprehend what was going on.

I can confirm this behavior exists. It's actually a bit nontrivial to get, because due to how the sales calculation works, for many companies the result is fully deterministic and so a reroll changes nothing. But yes, it sure is rerolled if you do a demo, and you can get a worse result:

They would like to purchase 59 'GoodGirl Basic' pills. That brings the value of the sale to $5768, factoring in their 15% discount.
You'll make $1385 on the sale, considering your commission rate of 24%.

Paradise Yacht Club would like to purchase 25 'GoodGirl Basic' pills. That brings the value of the sale to $2444, factoring in the 15% discount.
You'll make $733 on the sale, considering your commission rate of 24% (commission has been increased 25% to 30% due to your demonstration).

I don't think sales demos were messed with recently, so this is probably not a new behavior.

 

[Nexus_07]

To be fair - that is not how sales works for a real sales person. Only desperate car dealers would act that way, a 'proper' sales person knows the value of things which include ones own dignity. Since you usually deal with customers more than once you would never ever make such dumb deals, since you can never get back from that low.

Not being a sales person, I have only a slight idea about how it works. So, I meant that, in my case, I just take the in-game sales job as an action to support the rest pf the story, the big picture. Never cared too much on how realistic it is and actually, I really don't know how many of all players could be able to detect that kind of "distortion" as well. Same way I can't tell a 20 yo good whiskey from a not so bad one, just lack the knowledge and taste to do that. Anyway, for the sake of accuracy the more accurate is always, the best.

 

[DavDR]

The point of a demo is so a buyer can assess the value of product to their business, of course they can decide to purchase a different amount having seen the product in action. Do you feel equally put upon when a lead for 80 only asks to buy 40 after the phone call?

No, because in that scenario I can make a choice of rather to do the demo or not. Remember that doing a demo will use up a workday. It cost you money to take an entire day away from the office to demonstrate a product so of course any reasonable person is going to calculate if that time is worth it or not.