VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.215f] [Lust & Passion]

[hzjujk]

First of all - L&P, as an individual, took on way too big a task to finish this story as a game.
And to criticize this (the size) here in the forum is justified, because it is to be feared that the volume of work is not to be created by L&P and the consumers (paying and not paying) will never see the end of the story.
I'm talking about consumers here on purpose, not critics or editors of a book publisher.
Because if I wanted to tell a story and one of the many consumers told me, leave out this or that, then you can finish your story faster, he would only get to hear a "Fuck you" from me.
There are many examples at f95zone of how consumers have influenced a developer and changed their story. And the developer then at some point turned everything back to the beginning because he no longer told what he originally wanted (examples: FreePass, TAC, Dead Moon Survival, ...). Had completely alienated himself from his own story, his game.
So for me, the stupidest thing a game developer can do is to let the content of his story be changed by his consumer. I'm happy to be crucified for this opinion.
There are writers who are able to introduce a new figure/character into a story with just a few lines (half a page) and describe him in such a way that he looks like a real figure to the reader. As a rule, however, a story and its characters gain depth by having them take many small side paths so that not only the main character has a solid background but also the "side characters" seem more believable. I personally like that, also because I make my decisions in the game dependent on it.
Now, I also realize that in the worst case this is just a porn game and not a Nobel Prize level writing achievement. And that's why I'm going to spare myself from having an argumentative exchange with those who desperately masturbate to this game and whose paper handkerchief is still dry. Because this story should at best be that too - a porn game.

 

[hzjujk]

Lesbian sucks and waste of time

Oh, you just made a lot of enemies.

 

[rAmSiMaL]

Lesbian sucks and waste of time

Unfortunately lesbian doesn’t suck at all until now… this is the problem

 

[XaGnard]

"The question is, what is the motivation behind the rejection of Dylan content?" The question is why bother with the Dylan option? If you look at things from Sophia's POV - she is the protagonist after all, the first Dylan option is the uncomfortable (plus dangerous and illegal) one. She can easily wait a little while longer for Carl's driver and arrive in comfort.

Same goes for accepting Aiden's tasks as required for the Dylan route: either wait and go through the legal process, or accept the tasks and risk everything.

As opposed to the start of the Ellie route: the first option there is simply to accept a compliment. It's not even a choice between Filthy and GW. So it's easy for Sophia to become invested. 30-odd Ellie points in, and Sophia still hasn't done anything particularly risky.

With Patricia it's the same. If anything untoward were to happen, Carl would step in. Even if following the Patricia route ends up with Liam kicking Sophia out of the house, the worse that will happen is Sophia (possibly with Dylan and Ellie) moves into a bigger house.

I don't understand what is so hard for you to realize that this is not just about Sophia, but about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. The events around Patrica are so good mainly because they are also connected to Ellie, Dylan and Liam as part for the main story.

This same idea goes for the Blackmail stories. Aiden, like Sam, only work because they have an impact on Dylan's story. Without Dylan, both are kind of useless.

 

[Злой гений]

A new way. Neil saw women's underwear in Sam"s room. I went out into the yard, climbed a tree and took a picture of Sofia naked. Now you can blackmail Sofia with this photo.

 

[Blurpee69]

The question is, what is the motivation behind the rejection of Dylan content?

Is it really about the story being told in the best possible way, or is it just that some don't like Dylan as a character in the game? I have now given many examples of why Dylan's perspective is sometimes just the best way to tell the story, because it gives the player information needed to understand but Sophia should not know about at the moment (best example Dylan and Amber in the Pool with Sophia and Sam). No one here has even begun to explain how this story could have been told without Dylan's perspective. Can you?

We've been having this discussion for like 10 pages now. If you haven't picked up that all my suggestions have been to keep the story focused on Sophia and her role as A WIFE AND MOTHER then I don't know what to say at this point. There are ways to do that, that do not include constantly cutting away to Dylan, or Ellie, or Liam as I have also given an example of. It keeps the story tight and focused, and more importantly moving forward.

 

[tofhdns]

Dylan-Emma, Dylan-Marie, Dylan-Christine.

These stories are just started and there are scenes that are independent and There is completely separate story that delays Sophia's scenes.

In the last update, Sophia's only story changed her hairstyle at the hair shop.

If the developer updates every month and makes Sophia appear the more, and advances the story, there won't be any problem.

Because it's not like that, if they continue to focus on a separate Dylan story, Sofia's story is bound to be delayed.

 

[Alley_Cat]

I don't understand what is so hard for you to realize that this is not just about Sophia, but about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. The events around Patrica are so good mainly because they are also connected to Ellie, Dylan and Liam as part for the main story.

This same idea goes for the Blackmail stories. Aiden, like Sam, only work because they have an impact on Dylan's story. Without Dylan, both are kind of useless.

Well can you give an example of what you're trying to say that isn't basically that you're only interested in more Dylan content?

 

[XaGnard]

We've been having this discussion for like 10 pages now. If you haven't picked up that all my suggestions have been to keep the story focused on Sophia and her role as A WIFE AND MOTHER then I don't know what to say at this point. There are ways to do that, that do not include constantly cutting away to Dylan, or Ellie, or Liam as I have also given an example of. It keeps the story tight and focused, and more importantly moving forward.

Just because there's a way to do something, doesn't mean that this way it's automatically any good. So far, for example, no one here has been able to give an usefull alternative to L&P take on the pool event with Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam, where Dylan's perspective works perfect. The point is to tell a story and not to enforce a PoV only from Sophia.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that, at least for some in this discussion, the quality of the story itself doesn't seem to matter at all, but only the avoidance of Dylan as a character in the game. I think that's silly, because the story is about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. Therefore, it makes sense to learn more about the husband and the children. Especially if the events now or later have an impact on Sophia directly. The Dylan/Amber events or the Dylan/Ellie events are just an example of why it is usefull to give the player more knowlege than Sophia.

Well can you give an example of what you're trying to say that isn't basically that you're only interested in more Dylan content?

Well, look at all the posts where I explained how important Ellie, Sam, Patricia etc. are. If there is anything I think should be cut from the game it is poorly written events or the unnecessary side stories (like the side jobs), as they don't really advance the plot of the main story in the game.

 

[Злой гений]

Sofia is the main character. And everyone starts corrupting her. She already likes to show her naked body, from which she gets excited. The next stage is from Aiden. Most likely, he will invite her back to the art school, where Sofia will completely undress in front of the students. And when Sofia is corrupted, there will be a tack from Aiden to appear in the school without panties.

 

[Alley_Cat]

Just because there's a way to do something, doesn't mean that this way it's automatically any good. So far, for example, no one here has been able to give an usefull alternative to L&P take on the pool event with Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam, where Dylan's perspective works perfect. The point is to tell a story and not to enforce a PoV only from Sophia.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that, at least for some in this discussion, the quality of the story itself doesn't seem to matter at all, but only the avoidance of Dylan as a character in the game. I think that's silly, because the story is about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. Therefore, it makes sense to learn more about the husband and the children. Especially if the events now or later have an impact on Sophia directly. The Dylan/Amber events or the Dylan/Ellie events are just an example of why it is usefull to give the player more knowlege than Sophia.

Except that the examples you give: Dylan/Amber, Dylan/Ellie, don't impact Sophia directly at all. Can you name a single instance of say Sophia gaining a Filthy point in these events? A Dylan or Ellie point? Any relevance at all to the Sophia/Dylan or Sophia/Ellie routes? That's why they can and should be at the very least delayed until the main Sophia storyline can be completed in a reasonable timeframe. Not going to happen, but that's not the point.

It's also not in the slightest about avoiding Dylan as a character. If there were Ellie storylines that didn't involve Sophia, I'd be arguing just as strongly against them.

 

[Blurpee69]

None of us are complaining about the Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam pool scene, because it involved Sophia. I'm not saying we can't have little snippets of story from another characters perspective, in fact quite a few times I've encouraged it. I just want it to spread around further amongst all of the family members if that's the case. Right now it is assymetrically in favor of Dylan, he is the easiest to pick on at the moment because he's received so much favor for the last two years. Perhaps once we move past these couple of playable days that focus on Dylan, and Ellie becomes the focus again you'll hear the same complaints only Ellie will be the target. The problem again isn't Dylan specifically, it's that so much time is being dedicated to these side events that the story is at a stand still while we wait for them to playout.

I quite enjoyed the short little scene with Ellie / Christine / Dylan in front of the house after Sophia confronts them about finding a cigarette butt. No one is complaining about the short little scene from Liam's perspective at the bridal gown showing. The emphasis in both these cases though is that they're short. They're not an entire update away from Sophia's perspective, like this most recent one.

What did we get from this most recent update, that focused almost solely on Dylan that we couldn't get out of these three lines that either Sophia or Claire could make when Marie and Dylan came back to the salon? "How was your date you two?" "You didn't do anything inappropriate with my daughter did you?" "You two are so cute together." The factors at play, that could determine Dylan and Marie's reaction: how much encouragement Sophia has provided Dylan as far as branching out and trying things with girls, if Sophia has spoken at all about Dylan to Marie in the locker room / yoga scenes, if Sophia has shown any sort of interest in Claire or Marie in those same scenes, and how much encouragement Sophia has given Dylan to try for Marie in either salon scene. Dylan and Marie can react embarrased, nonchalant, proud, dismissive, whatever emotion that the reflect the kind of influence Sophia has had on their lives.

I don't want to rewrite L&P's story, I'm just giving an example of how hundreds of lines of dialogue, three full scenes and all of the rendering times for those scenes, can be condensed down to about 30-50 lines of dialogue which would allow for more time to move the story along.

 

[XaGnard]

Except that the examples you give: Dylan/Amber, Dylan/Ellie, don't impact Sophia directly at all. Can you name a single instance of say Sophia gaining a Filthy point in these events? A Dylan or Ellie point? Any relevance at all to the Sophia/Dylan or Sophia/Ellie routes? That's why they can and should be at the very least delayed until the main Sophia storyline can be completed in a reasonable timeframe. Not going to happen, but that's not the point.

It's also not in the slightest about avoiding Dylan as a character. If there were Ellie storylines that didn't involve Sophia, I'd be arguing just as strongly against them.

I can't see into the future, but I think it's clear to everyone here that e.g. sex between Dylan and Ellie, for example, will affect Sophia story in an at least non-negligible way. The same applies, for example, to Sophia finding out about Dylan and Amber.

Once again, it makes no sense to limit everything to direct actions by Sophia. It is typical for story telling to change the perspective sometimes. Especially when the story is supposed to reveal a secret that is still unknown to the MC. As I said, the Dylan and Amber event is the perfect example. The event is simply much more exciting when the player knows what's going on, and is only possible because Sophia doesn't know yet. Nevertheless, you should be aware that this will most likely have an impact on Sophia some day. It already starts when she notices that Dylan and Amber get along surprisingly well. The symmetry of Dylan/Amber and Sam/Sophia alone makes this story worth continuing.

 

[Alley_Cat]

None of us are complaining about the Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam pool scene, because it involved Sophia. I'm not saying we can't have little snippets of story from another characters perspective, in fact quite a few times I've encouraged it. I just want it to spread around further amongst all of the family members if that's the case. Right now it is assymetrically in favor of Dylan, he is the easiest to pick on at the moment because he's received so much favor for the last two years. Perhaps once we move past these couple of playable days that focus on Dylan, and Ellie becomes the focus again you'll hear the same complaints only Ellie will be the target. The problem again isn't Dylan specifically, it's that so much time is being dedicated to these side events that the story is at a stand still while we wait for them to playout.

I quite enjoyed the short little scene with Ellie / Christine / Dylan in front of the house after Sophia confronts them about finding a cigarette butt. No one is complaining about the short little scene from Liam's perspective at the bridal gown showing. The emphasis in both these cases though is that they're short. They're not an entire update away from Sophia's perspective, like this most recent one.

What did we get from this most recent update, that focused almost solely on Dylan that we couldn't get out of these three lines that either Sophia or Claire could make when Marie and Dylan came back to the salon? "How was your date you two?" "You didn't do anything inappropriate with my daughter did you?" "You two are so cute together." The factors at play, that could determine Dylan and Marie's reaction: how much encouragement Sophia has provided Dylan as far as branching out and trying things with girls, if Sophia has spoken at all about Dylan to Marie in the locker room / yoga scenes, if Sophia has shown any sort of interest in Claire or Marie in those same scenes, and how much encouragement Sophia has given Dylan to try for Marie in either salon scene. Dylan and Marie can react embarrased, nonchalant, proud, dismissive, whatever emotion that the reflect the kind of influence Sophia has had on their lives.

I don't want to rewrite L&P's story, I'm just giving an example of how hundreds of lines of dialogue, three full scenes and all of the rendering times for those scenes, can be condensed down to about 30-50 lines of dialogue which would allow for more time to move the story along.

Not entirely true. I've been complaining about all the Dylan content that isn't directly tied to the Sophia/Dylan storyline. So not directly the pool event, does include it.

 

[PietruccioTheHilander]

after all this talk...
+0% today

 

[hzjujk]

Not entirely true. I've been complaining about all the Dylan content that isn't directly tied to the Sophia/Dylan storyline. So not directly the pool event, does include it.

We don't know yet! Unless they already had insights that were denied to us.
The Elli/Dylan relationship will have a big impact on Sophia in the future. Likewise, I can imagine that Dylan/Marie will have a role in the Dylan/Sophia relationship in the future. I just think that Sophia showed sexual interest in Marie during the yoga event. And that Marie is already cheating on her boyfriend with Dylan. So it is conceivable that she could cheat on Dylan with his mother at some point.
That L&P takes the trouble to characterize the characters through history may seem superfluous now, but may play a role in the future. Even if that future, for us, is still a decade away.
This may not please everyone, but it is a perfectly normal way to tell a story.

 

[Alley_Cat]

We don't know yet! Unless they already had insights that were denied to us.
The Elli/Dylan relationship will have a big impact on Sophia in the future. Likewise, I can imagine that Dylan/Marie will have a role in the Dylan/Sophia relationship in the future. I just think that Sophia showed sexual interest in Marie during the yoga event. And that Marie is already cheating on her boyfriend with Dylan. So it is conceivable that she could cheat on Dylan with his mother at some point.
That L&P takes the trouble to characterize the characters through history may seem superfluous now, but may play a role in the future. Even if that future, for us, is still a decade away.
This may not please everyone, but it is a perfectly normal way to tell a story.

"We don't know yet!" about the pool event? My understanding is that in choosing the boarding school path, that stops the Sophia/Dylan relationship, cold. That's why I'm against it.

As to the bonus storyline, that's meant to be all done and dusted by PD16. Not sure how any "big impact" can eventuate when it wont affect the last half of the game. Only consequence I can think of that you might be alluding to is if Ellie forgives Logan. And in that case, the Logan branch of the Ellie route continues as if the bonus storyline never happened.

 

[hzjujk]

"We don't know yet!" about the pool event? My understanding is that in choosing the boarding school path, that stops the Sophia/Dylan relationship, cold. That's why I'm against it.

As to the bonus storyline, that's meant to be all done and dusted by PD16. Not sure how any "big impact" can eventuate when it wont affect the last half of the game. Only consequence I can think of that you might be alluding to is if Ellie forgives Logan. And in that case, the Logan branch of the Ellie route continues as if the bonus storyline never happened.

Now we don't say "great influence" but "influence." One of many. But the Dylan/Elli relationship will inevitably play a role. On the Dylan route when Elli learns that Dylan is making out with Sophia and on the pure lesbian route when Dylan learns that Sophia and Elli are entering into a new covenant for life.
In both cases, Sophia will surely prefer to lose only Liam and not her son or daughter.
And for those who want to see a threesome Elli/Sophia/Dylan ....
I think we will disagree here because they want to go completely different ways in this game than I do. And I agree that it is the story of L&P and I like the way it is told. That also means for me that every now and then I'm a little disappointed by an update (like the last one).

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Both blackmails should have been developed more. Aiden's too. I refuse both, and have yet to face any adverse storyline. I'm still happily playing all the events I want.

But then I'm of the opinion there shouldn't have been a choice between Morello and Aiden. Do away with the Morello storyline altogether, so that the only way to continue the Dylan route is to continue the tasks. Either that, or be able to play the Dylan route and not do the tasks at all.

I understand your desire for more lesbian content. I'd like that too, but not at the expense of forcing Dylan fans to accept every one of Aiden's blackmail tasks if they want to pursue the Dylan/Sophia route.

I was one of the Dylan fans who pushed for a way out of the blackmail as soon as possible once L&P gated the Dylan path to the start of Aiden's blackmail.

We still had to accept the 4 Aiden tasks to be able to stay on the Sophia path.

Here's another option:

If we are going to rewrite history, let's get rid of all of the Aiden blackmail - you know the thing that threatens a teacher's reputation and livelihood...

We both know that this will not happen, and we know that L&P is not going to rewrite the first 12 days of AWAM to appeal to either of us.

FYI - I also would not force Ellie to stay in an abusive relationship to continue her path with Sophia. If this is what Ellie's bitch points turn into - Ellie's willingness to be a victim and accept that all she is worth is to be cheated on and mistreated by Logan, then I am opposed to this.

Going forward, I'm fine with missing out on the Aiden blackmail, but that does not mean others don't want that, and the increasing submission of a pretty teacher to the whims of a high school thug and his gang.

We all have to accept that some of the fetishes/desires of others will not fall into our 'Sophia path' choices.

I think you've done a good job avoiding the paths you don't like, but at the expense of having very little content to enjoy - and that sucks.

When we get to either additional Aiden tasks or Ellie being turned into a victim (should this be what happens with the 'bitch point system'), I will avoid that content at almost all cost and so what if that means I have no real AWAM update for 6 months to 1 year +

That is the price I am willing to pay to avoid that particular type of content.

Cheers!

 

[Hazestack1972]

I am a big fan of Sophia's lesbian route as well, but I would like to see the Morello blackmail fleshed out a little. I would like to see more of Sophia's naughty thoughts about Larry Morello. Maybe he could find a way to get her a "conjugal" visit for a little striptease or more... Just my two cents from a recent fan.