Abandonment Issues

[hamlet17]

Much of the games I like/liked playing are abandoned/on-hold, or are developed with crawling speed and ultimately heading also to previously mentioned status.
Why has that become such a frequently occurrence?
I will offer some explanation and you can add your opinion.
There is no ONE development tool. You need to do graphics and develop structure (code).
Renpy, which is mostly used, is too complex and requires coding skills, in some cases not so basic coding skills. There is no GUI tool.
DAZ is also complex if you went to have good renders. If you have custom graphics than it is even more complex and time consuming, but mostly developers use DAZ.
Most of the developers have modest gear and rendering takes a long time.
Behind most of the games is one developer. Developers are reluctant to cooperate, and there is no easy to find good help.
So because all of that developers get burned out or “real” life gets in the way.
I don’t think that there is a simple and easy solution.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Here's a possible cause: most people are amateurs, not professionals nor academically trained, so they don't know how to get the scope of a project right, they don't know how to set limits on them selves just to get something done. More could always be done, but if we waited till stuff was perfect, nothing would get done. I try to focus on short games myself, like 30min to 2 hours top gameplay. I find art kills a lot of projects because people don't realize how much time it takes.

 

[J II D]

Here's a possible cause: most people are amateurs, not professionals nor academically trained, so they don't know how to get the scope of a project right, they don't know how to set limits on them selves just to get something done. More could always be done, but if we waited till stuff was perfect, nothing would get done. I try to focus on short games myself, like 30min to 2 hours top gameplay. I find art kills a lot of projects because people don't realize how much time it takes.

Indeed,
So many people on this site that think that they can make a game just because they have 1 horny idea for 1 scene or relationship.
But they forget about 99.99% of the rest of the game and of course the financial part of it.

Granted, in the last 12 months when a new game dropped you could almost anytime tell what game was being developed by someone with skill or an idea.
Or someone who is way over their head or only wanted a quick paycheck.

A developer friend of mine gets scripts and ideas every now and then from people who think they are the new Phillygames or Mrdots.
And so many times those "scripts" are just simple ideas with an amount of content that wouldn't fit on a post-it.

And i agree with the Art part.
Again, that friend of mine does everything himself and sometimes spends days on a single render to make it perfect.
Or even coding...Most people don't know even how to make a simple mod for a game, let alone program an entire game or figure out why something isn't working.

I like how you are doing it.
Just start with slower projects..
Tech-demo's, tiny projects until you know how everything works
Don't try to make the next Mona Lisa if don't know how a paint brush works.....

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Don't try to make the next Mona Lisa if don't know how a paint brush works.....

nicely said

 

[RanliLabz]

A key problem is the range of skills you need to develop a game and get any eyes on it. A solo dev needs to do the game design, artwork, writing, coding, sound, testing, packaging, marketing and social media... a pretty tough task if you're trying to get a decent sized update out per month. A lot of devs, unfortunately, only have one or two of the skills required (e.g. great art but lousy design, incredible coding but incomprehensible writing). Most seriously underestimate the time commitment they've made the moment they post v0.1, and the moral commitment they've made the first buck they make on Patreon.

 

[periergeia]

A key problem is the range of skills you need to develop a game and get any eyes on it. A solo dev needs to do the game design, artwork, writing, coding, sound, testing, packaging, marketing and social media... a pretty tough task if you're trying to get a decent sized update out per month. A lot of devs, unfortunately, only have one or two of the skills required (e.g. great art but lousy design, incredible coding but incomprehensible writing). Most seriously underestimate the time commitment they've made the moment they post v0.1, and the moral commitment they've made the first buck they make on Patreon.

I've been wandering for a while and don't get me wrong, i understand that i know very little about all the tasks that a dev does but... How come and jap people can do from 2 to 6-7 projects per year (and i mean not only game projects! they perform artwork books, personal games , and some even working on some main steam company's projects at the same time).

Today also happened to see a first release project from a dev here that does not go about money and he said that the whole story would be out by the end of the month i think?! ("descent" is the name of the game). Having said that my questions are: "Is it impossible to end a game within a year instead of 3-4-5-never?"
" Is it really bad to form groups and tackle the games better and faster?"
And lastly "Is it not bad enough that patreons paying for years on beta testing without final products when with only around 60 euros/dollars you get to play main steam triple A games and 5-30 dollars/euros jap completed games?"

That's my thoughts and i mean no offence but you know what i mean.

 

[polywog]

If I don't like a game, I mod it. If a dev is slow, I finish it myself.. the way I want it to end. In my spare time.

They say that technical people can't be creative, and with the push for S.T.E.M. education for the last 30 years, we have a lot of non-creative people today. Art is the domain of creative people. A technical person can use tools to try and mimic art, but their work leaves a lot to be desired.

Games can be technical, or simple. It's not hard for a creative person to do some technical things, and put out a game, but the time spent learning is wasted time that could have been spent creating. Most creative people weren't handicapped by a S.T.E.M. program, so it's easier for say an art or lit major to reach out and contact a tech person and put a team together, than it is for a technical person. S.T.E.M. intentionally limits your ability to communicate. "writing, wut is that? How do relationships work?" But stembots make good coders, even if they can't into art or writing.

Get together a group of creative people, and technical people, and that's when the magic happens. But they have to be able to get along with each other. Put aside your differences.

I have 23 friends that are programmers and or Python experts, they work in all different fields, medical, security, automation, IT, entertainment, and agriculture. Is that a diverse group or what? They each have different ways of doing things, each has a skill set that the others don't. They easily talk-shop and pick up new tricks from each other, but it was a lot of work to bring them together with a group of artsy people. their sworn enemies

By working together shit gets done quick. Everyone focuses on their area of expertise. Nobody gets burned out, if somebody takes a vacation others can fill in while they are gone without slowing down production.

No offense to those of you who mow your own lawn, rather than hiring a service. I know how rewarding it is to do things yourself, I have my own herb and vegetable garden 30 minutes a day, but I pay somebody to do the grass, hedges, and trim trees. My time i$ better $pent doing other thing$.

Kudos to the one-man-band


but if you're serious about making music, it works better as a team, and it's a lot of fun.

 

[periergeia]

If I don't like a game, I mod it. If a dev is slow, I finish it myself.. the way I want it to end. In my spare time.

They say that technical people can't be creative, and with the push for S.T.E.M. education for the last 30 years, we have a lot of non-creative people today. Art is the domain of creative people. A technical person can use tools to try and mimic art, but their work leaves a lot to be desired.

Games can be technical, or simple. It's not hard for a creative person to do some technical things, and put out a game, but the time spent learning is wasted time that could have been spent creating. Most creative people weren't handicapped by a S.T.E.M. program, so it's easier for say an art or lit major to reach out and contact a tech person and put a team together, than it is for a technical person. S.T.E.M. intentionally limits your ability to communicate. "writing, wut is that? How do relationships work?" But stembots make good coders, even if they can't into art or writing.

Get together a group of creative people, and technical people, and that's when the magic happens. But they have to be able to get along with each other. Put aside your differences.

I have 23 friends that are programmers and or Python experts, they work in all different fields, medical, security, automation, IT, entertainment, and agriculture. Is that a diverse group or what? They each have different ways of doing things, each has a skill set that the others don't. They easily talk-shop and pick up new tricks from each other, but it was a lot of work to bring them together with a group of artsy people. their sworn enemies

By working together shit gets done quick. Everyone focuses on their area of expertise. Nobody gets burned out, if somebody takes a vacation others can fill in while they are gone without slowing down production.

No offense to those of you who mow your own lawn, rather than hiring a service. I know how rewarding it is to do things yourself, I have my own herb and vegetable garden 30 minutes a day, but I pay somebody to do the grass, hedges, and trim trees. My time i$ better $pent doing other thing$.

Kudos to the one-man-band
View attachment 281208

but if you're serious about making music, it works better as a team, and it's a lot of fun.

Well wrote .. But for the "if you're serious" part i'll quote the universal law "If you are getting paid you as responsible as a pro" and thus you are serious since you are asking for it.

 

[polywog]

since you are asking for it.

You're applying the wrong law.


Being an adult game developer, can certainly feel like being a prostitute, especially if you have mean pimp.
But if you are doing it for the sake of doing it, rather than looking to sell your body, it falls more into the amateur or pro-am category, and you can be a "teen" for 15 years.

In this industry, you aren't "selling" you're on the street corner giving it away for free. Cops roll by, you can just smile, cuz the stuff you're dealin is highly addictive, but there's nothing they can do, and no money changes hands on the street corner. Once the customers are hooked, then they come looking at your website for more, and they're willing to pay for that sweet sweet furry ass of yours. They can't get enough.

Sometimes you sprinkle the crack on the playground, and the kids smoke it and go looking at other dealers for more, but don't let that bother you, because those other dealers are getting others hooked, and their customers are coming to you too. It's not a competitive business, like it was dealing in the 1980s

In fact, you want to be out there with the other dealers, cuz if they like the other dealer's product, you can probably get them to try yours as well. Unless you have a weird fetish game that gets distributed in a dark alley.

customers keep coming back as long as you're cookin.

 

[periergeia]

You're applying the wrong law.
View attachment 281223

Being an adult game developer, can certainly feel like being a prostitute, especially if you have mean pimp.
But if you are doing it for the sake of doing it, rather than looking to sell your body, it falls more into the amateur or pro-am category, and you can be a "teen" for 15 years.
View attachment 281232
In this industry, you aren't "selling" you're on the street corner giving it away for free. Cops roll by, you can just smile, cuz the stuff you're dealin is highly addictive, but there's nothing they can do, and no money changes hands on the street corner. Once the customers are hooked, then they come looking at your website for more, and they're willing to pay for that sweet sweet furry ass of yours. They can't get enough.

Sometimes you sprinkle the crack on the playground, and the kids smoke it and go looking at other dealers for more, but don't let that bother you, because those other dealers are getting others hooked, and their customers are coming to you too. It's not a competitive business, like it was dealing in the 1980s
View attachment 281231
In fact, you want to be out there with the other dealers, cuz if they like the other dealer's product, you can probably get them to try yours as well. Unless you have a weird fetish game that gets distributed in a dark alley.

customers keep coming back as long as you're cookin.

You do realize that with all that you practically said out loud "it's a sham" right?

 

[polywog]

You do realize that with all that you practically said out loud "it's a sham" right?

 

[RanliLabz]

I've been wandering for a while and don't get me wrong, i understand that i know very little about all the tasks that a dev does but... How come and jap people can do from 2 to 6-7 projects per year (and i mean not only game projects! they perform artwork books, personal games , and some even working on some main steam company's projects at the same time).

Hey periergeia - I honestly couldn't comment on most Japanese-style developers, since I don't play anime-style or games with Honey Select models. I do know that most appear to be posted by Uploaders rather than the devs - meaning that they may have been created over a longer period of time than their posting suggests and site-ripped.

Today also happened to see a first release project from a dev here that does not go about money and he said that the whole story would be out by the end of the month i think?! ("descent" is the name of the game).

I don't know when Ryder began making Descent - but he's obviously not producing an entire game chapter every 5 days! He's clearly releasing it in increments to take advantage of the Latest Updates publicity (and fair play to him for that - we all need to find ways to get eyes on our game!)

Having said that my questions are: "Is it impossible to end a game within a year instead of 3-4-5-never?"

Yes... a short illustrated game with a very limited number of routes and few genuine player choices, a short animation-heavy linear VN, or a long 'grind' game with no more illustrations than a more honest short version. You won't realistically get a multi-character immersive game with a satisfactory ending and multiple paths in that timeframe - unless it's text-based.

"Is it really bad to form groups and tackle the games better and faster?"

No! I welcome it! But there are massive trade-offs to that. Most devs are making passion-projects... forming a team inherently requires compromising their creative vision. Are you just to be the manager of the team? How would the others like having a 'boss' - absolutely necessary to delivering a project and ensuring cohesiveness and quality? How do you separate the 50% of the workload that's game-design, writing and coding (almost impossible!)? Does an artist really want to cede creative control to the writer (he'll have to take direction)? How do you manage an online collaboration with team members in different countries and time-zones, often with other commitments besides the project? Very few people manage it because it is inherently very difficult.

And lastly "Is it not bad enough that patreons paying for years on beta testing without final products when with only around 60 euros/dollars you get to play main steam triple A games and 5-30 dollars/euros jap completed games?"

Patrons choose what to spend their money on for all sorts of reasons - because they love the game and want to motivate the dev, to get their name in the credits, access early release, ensure access to the dev, have input into the game. I'm both a Creator on Patreon and a Patron (I currently pledge to 4 Creators - all for very different reasons).

 

[periergeia]

Hey periergeia - I honestly couldn't comment on most Japanese-style developers, since I don't play anime-style or games with Honey Select models. I do know that most appear to be posted by Uploaders rather than the devs - meaning that they may have been created over a longer period of time than their posting suggests and site-ripped.

I don't know when Ryder began making Descent - but he's obviously not producing an entire game chapter every 5 days! He's clearly releasing it in increments to take advantage of the Latest Updates publicity (and fair play to him for that - we all need to find ways to get eyes on our game!)

Yes... a short illustrated game with a very limited number of routes and few genuine player choices, a short animation-heavy linear VN, or a long 'grind' game with no more illustrations than a more honest short version. You won't realistically get a multi-character immersive game with a satisfactory ending and multiple paths in that timeframe - unless it's text-based.

No! I welcome it! But there are massive trade-offs to that. Most devs are making passion-projects... forming a team inherently requires compromising their creative vision. Are you just to be the manager of the team? How would the others like having a 'boss' - absolutely necessary to delivering a project and ensuring cohesiveness and quality? How do you separate the 50% of the workload that's game-design, writing and coding (almost impossible!)? Does an artist really want to cede creative control to the writer (he'll have to take direction)? How do you manage an online collaboration with team members in different countries and time-zones, often with other commitments besides the project? Very few people manage it because it is inherently very difficult.
Patrons choose what to spend their money on for all sorts of reasons - because they love the game and want to motivate the dev, to get their name in the credits, access early release, ensure access to the dev, have input into the game. I'm both a Creator on Patreon and a Patron (I currently pledge to 4 Creators - all for very different reasons).

Thanks for your time to clarify and again i clarify that i mean no offence Ranilabz.

I'll take your word for it since i said i know little but i'll point out 2 facts that you misunderstood.

The first is about jap games to suggest you if you like to visit and study dslite.com if you like. I'm telling you that because i was a consumer there and know more about japan's games since i playing for more than a decade. It was 2017 that i mostly discovered western style games along this site (i say mostly because i knew "breeding season" and LOP). I followed japan's devs and saw the development speed in updates / final release dates and other works from them and it's true..Most of them managing to deliver really fast.. (To be fair there are many pro artists,writers etc that been hired by some of them and do wonders).

Second point is in your last answer i clarified that is about "patreons paying for years on beta testing without final products" and in the same time the money that been payed are in unfair scale (after all there are clear cuts at 5-10-20 or 50 dollars to play first the full updates etc). So my comment/question is not about people's love or support. It's about the delivery and honoring those generous pledges. Like the thread says it's about the abandoned projects that multiply and the long development rate does not encourage that even half from the up and running projects will have better luck..


My brother and i are from those people that got screwed in the famous "breeding season" (brother's account both our money) and we saw what a dev with loose integrity and time fatigue can do. That's the main reason i'm overly aware and conflicted about the whole thing and you understand that if we did n't love the games we would n't be even here.

With respect wish you the best.

 

[RanliLabz]

No offence taken at all, periergeia! I'll defer to you on the Japanese games front, as I have almost no experience of them. Sadly a lot of folks have been burned by unscrupulous devs in the past - and by more innocent abandonments/delays like Nverjos' Coceter Chronicles following her father's death or Greono's development hell over at Two Sides. But there are some truly great devs out there too - big and small - who go above and beyond and always meet their deadlines/promises.

Unfortunately, you're probably right to say that many projects will likely end up abandoned. I'd say a general rule of thumb as to which will last the course is to look out for:
1. original characters (not the Daz base models, for instance) and a customised GUI
2. an original plot (not just a clone of Milfy City) or an original game mechanic
3. regular player/patron engagement (not too regular, though! they should be working on the game!)
4. realistic Patreon goals and a commitment to at least some development irrespective of funding.
Warning signs include:
1. small devs asking for high dollar pledges ($50 is crazy before anyone's pledged so much as a buck!)
2. long early-release benefits without a track record of delivery ('I'll have it for you in a month!' )
3. no sight of skin in v0.1 - can they actually pose more complex scenes?
4. devs who claim they need $$$s for a new rig when the quality of their renders suggests they have a top-end machine already.

Wish you the best too, man

 

[xoxo]

People want to start making games are charge money for their products without having any programming and game development background. They want to make 3D pictures without any 3D experience, to write stories without any studies in storytelling. Most new devs don't understand their tools very well, they are learning as they make their games. They will find problems they can't solve fast enough, they'll discover they don't like making games that much, they will get distracted with something else or some new game idea, they will stress out with deadlines and go away forever.

I can guarantee there is no person releasing 7 good games every year. Unless you call games those 30 minutes with no/bad gameplay and a couple of pictures rpg maker games. In this case you can also say most occidental devs are releasing 10-12 "games" per year. Otherwise, it's a team, publisher or studio. I know some people who release 3 to 4 "real games" (not pornographic) every year. The games are not really good or lengthy, they prefer to make money selling a lot of mediocre games instead of trying to make a great one. It's a valid strategy, but you can't compare this type of developer with someone spending 3 years to make a hit and call the second one "lazy".

 

[BeCe]

The only abandonment issue I face is that I wanna drop my current game and start with the next project. I've learned so much since I started this and I feel like I could build a better and more popular game from the ground up, the only thing stopping me is my commitment to finishing the story and the loyalty I owe my patrons. But then, this is something I want to do, I mean, not gunna lie I saw the money some devs were making and I wanted a slice of that pie but I am in this because I like writing, creating and sharing. If that's not why you are doing this then I can see why some will just throw in the towel if they aren't making the big bucks after a couple of months.

 

[xoxo]

The only abandonment issue I face is that I wanna drop my current game and start with the next project. I've learned so much since I started this and I feel like I could build a better and more popular game from the ground up

“My code’s a mess. And I’ve learned so much already. If I started over I could do it a lot better and faster, and then the rest of the game will go a lot faster, too!”

STOP. NO. This is true at some point during every game’s development. Your code will always be a mess. You will have learned a lot. It will never be perfect. And if you start all over, you’ll find yourself in the exact same situation when you get to this point again. It’s a terrible trap to think like this.
from

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All game developers should read this.
Plus, having a finished game will help when you try to sell your new improved game, it shows you can get the job done.

 

[BeCe]

@xoxo did you not read the rest of my post?

 

[Winterfire]

Granted that I did not read all replies, just the first ones... So what I am about to say might be something someone else already said, if so, excuse me.

Ren'Py is in no way hard, it is basic enough to be accessible for everyone to make a normal visual novel but it has also the capabilities to do "all the rest" for people willing to spend time learning coding.

Reality is simple, it is not because people are amateurs or solo or because developing is too hard, all those reasons are far from the truth... Reality is that people start with the wrong expectations.
People get that cool idea and be like "Hold my beer, I can make it happen" but they quickly or slowly realize that even the most basic thing takes a lot of work to do, they realize how their idea would take years to make it happen and wouldn't even turn out to be as good as they thought, so they give up and go grab their beer back.

Another common wrong expectation is to make a lot of money off patreon, when they realize it is not as easy and fast as they thought, they give up because they lack the passion of making games, they only had the passion to make easy money.

If I had to give a suggestion to a new developer, I would tell them "Start with no expectations", you can't go deeper than the bottom you start from.

 

[BeCe]

@Winterfire One thing I'd add to that is I'd tell new devs using renpy is to start small. Very small. A few linear scenes and maybe a branch or two but no more. Huge mistake tackling a large, complicated branching story right away... like I did.