Are game sizes becoming a issue?

VMiller

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Mar 7, 2023
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I did an experiment. I made a 4K rendering, it took 4 and a half minutes, then reduced the image and saved it with Gimp.

PNG:

3840x2160 - 8.1 Mb
1920x1080 - 1.3 Mb
1280x720 - 0.65 Mb

JPG

3840x2160 - 434 Kb
1920x1080 - 153 Kb
1280x720 - 86 Kb

image-JPG 3840x2160.jpg
 
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anne O'nymous

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The worst practise of all time is forcing the player to DL several GB of images they already have from dling a previous version of a game. Make an update only patch, and not only from last update but maybe 3-4 updates ago. Section the game into part 1, part 2, whatever. I never understood the friction of being able to drop in new image files into an existing folder as if its arcane magic.
Well, precisely because it's arcane magic.

You are reasoning in terms of advanced player, assuming that everyone know the same than you while it's in fact the opposite ; you are an exception and most know way less than you.

This imply that most devs don't do this because they don't want to deal with the astounding number of idiots who will not understand how to use the update patch. I only do Ren'Py mods, and the installation process is simple and explicit:
Extract the content of the archive in the game directory. [...] In case you are prompted to overwrite a file, always keep the most recent.
So, if your game is in "/my adult games/Super Powered", you must put the content of the archive in the "/my adult games/Super Powered/" folder. At the end, the [list of all the files] must be in the "/my adult games/Super Powered/game/" folder.
Yet there's people who don't understand this. There's even one that needed four answers before he achieved to do it right... or decided to quit, I'm not even sure what of the two apply.


[...] seeing 10gb size with only mega dl options makes people straight up ignore the title.
Well, a chance that it's something that never ever happen here, since uploader have the obligation to provide at least three different hosts for each version.
 

Winterfire

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"Patches" are all right only if you are willing to do them properly, aka having a launcher downloading and applying all the patches for you.

Even if you know how to do it, there's no way I'd want to download pieces and put them together myself, I am too lazy.
I'd rather download the whole thing, unzip, and play.

Manual patches are stupid anyway, assume you want to change some old stuff, what will you do?
At that point, it'd be better releasing "Seasons" instead.
 

Count Morado

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I would say the adage doesn't hold this time. There are some pretty hefty file sizes here. Never mind the fact people keep using uncompressed HD realporn for their text based game made in Twine.

It might not be the 40 plus gigabytes of a major developer, but for some people space and data caps are a premium.
This is just the continuation of the same argument of the past 50 years of consumer use of PCs, BBSs, and the internet.

I remember worrying about whether to include 60kb or 200kb images on websites that I designed in HTML4 when it was new over two decades ago.

Application footprint - no matter what its purpose (entertainment, productivity, etc) - always pushes the limits and technology obliges.

We went from paper cards to reels to cassette tapes to floppies to CDs to DVDs to thumbdrives...
8bit to 16bit to 32bit to 64bit architecture...
32k RAM to 128 to 1meg to 1gig to 16gig to 32gig...
300 baud modems to 1200 to 14.4k to 56k to megabit to gigabit speeds...
etc etc etc...

I have a cheapo $100 android phone with a 128gb microSDXC for memory. If I wanted, I could buy a 1TB or 2TB microSDXC for $60 or so on Amazon. My ISP keeps upping my middling broadband account. 4 years ago, I had a 20GB speed 400GB bandwidth monthly account - now it's 150GB/ 1.5TB per month. I stream almost all my entertainment - and I still can't break 1TB bandwidth usage. Do I live in the US? Sure - so everyone will have differing experiences - but, overall, technology is adapting nearly everywhere.

This is all to say, it's the same complaint and nothing is going to change any time soon. The choice is in the hands of the person doing the downloading - choose wisely.
 

Meushi

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Aug 4, 2017
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"Patches" are all right only if you are willing to do them properly, aka having a launcher downloading and applying all the patches for you.

Even if you know how to do it, there's no way I'd want to download pieces and put them together myself, I am too lazy.
I'd rather download the whole thing, unzip, and play.

Manual patches are stupid anyway, assume you want to change some old stuff, what will you do?
At that point, it'd be better releasing "Seasons" instead.
Include it in the patch? Same as in the full version. It's not that hard (in Ren'Py at least).

I take manual patches any time I can & never had a problem. Smaller dl means sooner can get the update up & running.

It rarely makes sense to exclusively deliver updates as manual patches though, which is why most I've encountered offer both.

So thanks very much for those devs who make the extra effort to deliver patches alongside the full game.

Not to mention all the people with poor internet who benefit from downloading piecemeal.
 
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Count Morado

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Let's not get hasty and say no one does, not a huge amount of devs but I wouldn't put it past the sleazier ones to do that.
The only reason why a developer could want to intentionally inflate their game size is to make it appear as if there is more content than there actually is. However, after the first several downloaders comment about no content, that pretty much cancels out the possible attempt at subterfuge. Otherwise, there's no reason why a developer would intentionally inflate their game size. They get no reward for doing so. They don't get paid by the megabyte. If they pay for hosting (such as the larger developers) - it costs them more for footprint and bandwidth with their hosting company if they have larger than necessary file sizes.

So while you are technically correct that it shouldn't be said that "no one does," you are incorrect at attributing malice. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
 
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SoulsSurvivor

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So while you are technically correct that it shouldn't be said that "no one does," you are incorrect at attributing malice. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
I honestly agree, I don't think I've seen unused images in any game except that which can attributed to "left because scene no longer exists but something cold get fucked if removed" because I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. I just also hold the opinion that we can't say no one did it because I don't have enough faith in human intellect to not see all the cons.
 

tanstaafl

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Patches would require patching and patching requires some sort of installation to patch. Registered paths and directories. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't keep games on my computer after being done with them, other than the %appdata% saves. And I absolutely don't want a game with an installer for several reasons. The primary reason being I don't trust adult game devs to be upstanding and good people (no offense to upstanding and good devs, lol). Clicking an installer put out there by some random is just too much of a risky click, imo. So, I settle for downloading and unzipping games in their entirety as they are updated.
 

Atemsiel

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I have no idea if this has been mentioned anywhere in this thread, but I do know that if the developer has a paid MEGA account, they can actually share their bandwidth with people who download their files, so the 5gb limit doesn't apply. I wonder if devs who do have this option enabled should start stating it in their threads. I didn't realise how many people there are who see a game more than 5gb in size and just don't bother because they assume they won't be able to download it.


1684436911242.png
This is what a dev gets on the cheapest possible mega plan. So right there I have almost 800GB worth of shared download quota, and could quite easily increase that if I started seeing the sort of traffic where it might be required.
 
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khumak

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Compressing images does not solve the problem drastically, the file sizes are not reduced very much.
You can compress images by somehwere around 90% with minimal loss in image quality. So compression makes a huge difference for images. I find that it's less effective for video than it is for images but it still helps. The bigger issue for video is that the starting file sizes can be so large that even with compression it's just not manageable. The real porn game I'm working on right now is sitting at a file size of almost a terrabyte without compression. There's no way you could expect to actually distribute something like that (and I have no plan to try).
 
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anne O'nymous

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Include it in the patch? Same as in the full version. It's not that hard (in Ren'Py at least).
Yes and no.

As Winterfire implied, it need that you know what you are doing, and if you don't rely on an automatic installer, it also need that the player know what they are doing.
For convenience, most dev would group the scripts in their own RPA ; easier fix and all. But how many players will complain that there's no new content, because they panicked when facing the "the file scripts.rpa already exist, do you want to overwrite it ?" dialog box, and answered "no" ? Because it's what will happen. It already happen time to time with the member fixes and mods.
With 7.x/8.x branches it's possible to declare a label a second time without Ren'Py complaining, but between the typos and the dialog lines reworked a bit, it's almost all the labels from the two previous updates that you should include.

So, yes, technically it's possible and not too difficult. But in practice you fallback on my previous "dev don't want to add the support for this in their already long list of daily tasks".
 

khumak

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I misspoke, sorry. I meant compressing the image by reducing the resolution.
I render scenes in JPG 1920 x 1080.
Which resolution to render at is an interesting question. Personally I think 1920x1080 is the sweet spot since most people run 1080p monitors and there's enough detail there for it to still look fine for people who have higher resolution monitors. Rendering at 4k takes longer and most of your fans probably won't see any benefit from it compared to 1080p so to me it's not worth it unless you have an absolutely top of the line render box that is fast enough that you don't really care about the difference in render times.

By contrast, rendering at 720p is a noticeable downgrade in quality for almost everyone who might see your game so the faster render times are not worth the image quality trade off IMO.

Some devs render at higher resolutions and then downscale as kind of a "poor man's denoiser". But you could just use a real denoiser.
 
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Deleted member 5954819

Beyond Tomorrow
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Mar 31, 2023
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Rendering at 4k takes longer and most of your fans probably won't see any benefit from it compared to 1080p
Rendering in 3840x2160 vs. 1920x1080 is quite a big difference in quality and detail, especially if you use post-denoiser. I agree that it takes more time, but if the developer cares about the visuals, he is able to sacrifice that time, and in the end, it is definitely worth it.

Of course, making a game in 4K doesn't make sense; there would really be only a few players who have a 4K monitor at home. Therefore, it is advisable to change the resolution to 1920x1080 (bicubic smoother, which does not lose quality) while editing images in Photoshop. Whether I'm right or not - I am because I do it myself, and the difference is quite visible.
 

khumak

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Rendering in 3840x2160 vs. 1920x1080 is quite a big difference in quality and detail, especially if you use post-denoiser. I agree that it takes more time, but if the developer cares about the visuals, he is able to sacrifice that time, and in the end, it is definitely worth it.

Of course, making a game in 4K doesn't make sense; there would really be only a few players who have a 4K monitor at home. Therefore, it is advisable to change the resolution to 1920x1080 (bicubic smoother, which does not lose quality) while editing images in Photoshop. Whether I'm right or not - I am because I do it myself, and the difference is quite visible.
I'm not disputing the quality difference between 1080p and 4k. My point was that since most people are going to end up downscaling to 1080p since that's the resolution their monitor is using (regardless what resolution you set the game at), the extra quality of rendering at 4k is mostly lost on them.

The main reason to do it that I've seen is that if you decide not to let your renders fully converge and stop them short of being fully rendered, rendering at a higher resolution like 4k and then downscaling from there to 1080p can get rid of the fireflies similar to the way a denoiser would.

Sometimes there's not a huge time gap between a render that looks almost finished but still has a few fireflies versus one that's entirely finished and doesn't require any denoising. Other times that gap can be several hours for a single image. The worst cases I've seen for my renders are low light renders, especially if they include reflections. So I can see how it might save time in some cases.
 
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