As a creator, how do you avoid being scammed by other creators?

[riverrungames]

Hello everyone. I'm writing this post to share my experiences as a creator. I'm frustrated and a bit pissed off, and I want to learn how other people avoid this experience of being scammed by other creators. So please feel free to post your experiences working in a team where you felt aggrieved or ripped off by the head person in charge of the project. If the other case is true, post that too.

For the past few weeks, I've been involved in two separate writing projects for two developers. We established conversations on these forums in the recruitment and services section, and followed through on Discord. Today, we split ways owing to irreconcilable differences, and unsurprisingly, these differences were contingent around the theme of money.

I was employed as a writer, and so my main focus went to crafting the story and weaving an interesting plot (based on uninteresting premise shopped to me), and trying to make the characters defined and believable in these circumstances, and focusing on their psychology and development as it went on. I really wanted to write something original while sticking to the limitations of what could be implemented in the programming, art, coding, music, etc. This posed a cool challenge for me, writing something sexy and interesting and entertaining within this sandbox of imposed rules and regulations.

The developers (the head honchos) in this instance were only concerned with earning money, making a return, getting the most clicks and following on Patreon and Subscribestar. Their profit motive started off innocently at first. First, these devs focused on all the genres that were successful on this site (incest, corruption, harem, school and hotel settings), having characters similar to popular games like Milfy City and Waifu Academy, and similar plug-in-the-backstory. Plenty of games do this, and while cynical, these devs wanted to ensure they made their money back. It's understandable. I am realistic about game development and don't expect to make money writing, and I was okay with that. Second, they weren't interested in splitting the money evenly, the devs took a higher percentage split. This was a red flag, but not a huge one, since the project wasn't earning anything yet, and this could be worked out more concretely as the project started to gain shape. Again, money wasn't the make or break factor for me as it was for them.

Of course, what started off innocently enough turned insidious, the devs from these projects incorporated changes that would do a serious disservice to the story and the characters for their scam.

1. The head developer wanted to intentionally stall the progress of the story and character development to continuously add on side stories and characters, to keep the game going on longer and longer, with the intention of bilking people out of their money, as people are charged monthly instead of per release. This is the very definition of a scam.
2. They wanted to do the least amount of work, so they weren't interested in commissioning artists, or programmers, renderers, or artists. Instead they used recycled stock animations and images, and had the storyteller act as a glorified amanuensis. (Which means all the suggestions you make were turned down, if it wasn't in the stock pool of poses and animations).
3. They changed the description of what was expected from the writer, saying one thing and then saying another. For example, let's make it a narrative game, then saying let's make a free-roaming game because all the top games on Patreon are free-roam, without justifying their choices. In other words, they didn't really know what they wanted other than "let's rip off a popular game!" Their design choices are based solely on what makes them the most money and attention.
4. They wanted to delay the sex scenes indefinitely for the fear the game would get boring. This is an adult VN, is it not? The market for being blueballed must be bigger than I previously thought.
5. The whole affair of working on these projects felt very top-down; instead of having this be a collaborative process where everyone works together to make the best game they can, everyone had to follow their dictates, and the head dev always had the last word on the decisions, no matter how arbitrary or unjustified their position was.

I am aware this type of behavior exists, and is rampant in this corner of developing for adult VNs, but this experience over the past few weeks has made me an extremely cynical person, and concerned about how many other creators are only in it for the money, and trying to scam people through the veneer of developing a sex game while offering zero sex and zero game. It's a scam within a scam. Why not develop a quality game and attract people in a legitimate and honorable way, through good characters, story, animation, programming, music voices, voice acting, and so on? I know there's a market for the latter, so why are the creators who look for people to work with them so scummy? Why do so many of these people who want games to be developed treat their fellow creators and potential players like dirt, I don't get it. Feel free to chime in.

Addendum: If you're looking for a writer, and you want to make an interesting game in a collaborative way, let me know, because I am open to new projects, and will be for some time, I imagine.

 

[HumblestRanger]

Man, you just got unlucky, that's all there is to this case.

Some people can be greedy, some people can be passionate about what they do, some can even be both.

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Best of luck in your future endeavors.

 

[Winterfire]

I would say the majority of current developers do not care about money as much as their creative integrity and projects, in fact I saw many of them earning really little after working on their projects for years, while having a real job.

However we have a couple of devs here who base everything around money, such as anna94 , but unlike those you have described, she is actually really talented and hard-working, so you should not consider this a red flag.
Having the goal of making money is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you are honest about it and do not try to scam people.

I would say you just had bad luck, or ignored some obvious red flags.

 

[riverrungames]

Man, you just got unlucky, that's all there is to this case.

Some people can be greedy, some people can be passionate about what they do, some can even be both.

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Best of luck in your future endeavors.

Thank you for the kind words and your potential offer. Maybe the stars will align and someday we will both find a collaborative partner to work with.

I would say the majority of current developers do not care about money as much as their creative integrity and projects, in fact I saw many of them earning really little after working on their projects for years, while having a real job.

However we have a couple of devs here who base everything around money, such as anna94 , but unlike those you have described, she is actually really talented and hard-working, so you should not consider this a red flag.
Having the goal of making money is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you are honest about it and do not try to scam people.

I would say you just had bad luck, or ignored some obvious red flags.

Making money isn't a bad thing, never said it was. In fact creators deserve all the money made from their hard work. If a player or a consumer feels like they want to donate or contribute to the creator out of a sense of charity or their own free will, then, of course I welcome it. I'm not reaching for sour grapes here.

What the problem here is certain creators tilting the table to suit their ends, trying to deceive people into accepting a rigged proposition and buying into a product that has been designed to be one grand cocktease. They run way with the money before people realize that none of what was promised by the dev is ever going to come to fruition. It's a giant scam, and I feel frustrated and depressed because the goal of the project was never meant to be a pump and dump scheme. It was meant to be the beginning of an ongoing conversation and a working relationship, and then the project was hijacked into something I never agreed to be a part of, which is why and other members of the team quit. With that, three weeks of work vanishing into the ether. It's not only players who get scammed, it's other creators as well.

In one instance, this was a case of bad luck, but also there is a culture of scamming that not only affects the player base but other creators as well. The latter, creators scamming creators, is something I want to hear more about from other members in the forums, because I'm sure I'm not the only one getting scammed by bad faith creators and developers into creating something for them so they can repurpose my creation to fit their own ends.

 

[imelman]

Considering I suffered an inversion, not developer related but more asset related, where I was making an edited model for some person that ended up not paying at all while claiming that "I merely suggested, so I shouldn't pay for inconveniences" and other excuses, including "I will give you an 80$ Steam gift card if you do" thing, that well, was already a red flag because such unusual gift cards do not exist, nor the user can verify that they really have the money to pay once the work's done, but being bored, I went in anyway - and they backed out, despite doing everything as they said, including multiple extra additions they demanded, and suddenly only willing to pay less - until I actually released it, and I got only an 0.03$ card offer that I ended up refusing due to how insulting it was "because I ain't a prick" excuse - and this was the point where I was legitimately angry, they made me go through the trouble of taking another creator's work(I did credit them, but it felt wrong)and twisting it to their demands, then wasting hours of their additional features, then giving nothing when it's done, so I posted the entire chat exchange to warn others of such insolent behavior that better be not repeated.

And that was the straw that made me much more strict on money related works, now I demand at least half of full payment if they want something done, so if they back out, I still have some to spare. And as a proof that they can be trusted once the work's done, if they don't back out.

So yes, selfish creators will exist, who try to manipulate the audience to think they are innocent, but so are selfish commissioners, who only seek their own needs fulfilled while skimming "do it for free" part. You should be wary of both, just in case.

And that's not going into just as serious matter as trading virtual items for money - people in such mess are only concerned about how much they can earn while their opponent loses, and they advertise themselves fairly aggressively while being engaged in profit seeking endeavors themselves, which may or may not include scamming people who don't know any better.

 

[Mimir's Lab]

As others have already said, your mileage may vary and, in your case, you went into business with your worst case. The only ways to avoid it are to be clear about expectations and goals with the head of the project and make sure it aligns with your own. Of course, as you experienced it first hand, those expectations and goals set forth may change at any time, at which case the only thing you can do is deal with it or leave. It's a lot like finding a job whose company culture you fit in with. In the interview process for a job application, the interviewer usually asks if you have any questions for them. As much as they are interviewing you to see if you are a fit for them, you should be interviewing them, your potential employers or, in this case, your potential business partners, to see if they are a fit for you. I'm going to assume that you skipped this essential part and signed on casually, as we all do in this space, and hoped that everyone's goals align. But that'd be where your problem lies. Even still, even if you mesh well with whoever is the project lead, that doesn't guarantee that the quality of people that leader is bringing in will be similar to you or him, so there are potential problems lurking there.

The best way to avoid being scammed is by leading a project yourself and taking the time to interview the people you're bringing in. If someone refuses to put in the time to be interviewed, or you yourself are unwilling to take things seriously enough to interview people, then you waste no one's time because if you start a project with these people, they will take the project as seriously as they took your interview.

 

[Agent HK47]

Well, the greed of adult VN devs is infamous in these circles. Not all of them are bad, but a lot of them definately are. I have been making my own game(s) (ending up scrapping one and starting it over as another, you know the drill) for a while now, but purely as a hobby and without intent to sell it for money. It's fun, but also a real pain when things don't work out for one reason or another. I can only imagine what kinds of trouble is born, when you add multiple people, different visions and money on top.

I would offer you to join my project, but currently the project is mostly on hold, due to me needing a new computer for rendering, and I have never worked with others on a project such as this, so it would probably end badly anyway

 

[woody554]

life tip: when you (for any reason) get in business with people who you find out to be scammers, like these guys obviously, it's best to detach yourself from them as quickly as possible. the thing with people who have no integrity is that they WILL turn on you too. the second they get an opening to betray you for their own gain, they will do it. doesn't matter if you're their 'friend' or that they 'seem nice', if you see them scamming someone else they will scam you too.

the best case scenario is you only lose money. but you can also lose your reputation and be labeled as scammer too for working with them. and especially in gaming the internet NEVER forgets. people who grow to hate you will follow you to your every new project and tell everyone what happened in the old one. and they'll never stop piling shit on you.

if you go check the threads involving such devs you'll see people shitting on them EVERY day even years after the scam. and as a result their revenue has crashed in some cases from 50K a month to barely getting anything. and even outside of porn games countless of gaming companies have gone under for getting a bad rep, usually from lying and scamming their audience.

 

[recreation]

First, these devs focused on all the genres that were successful on this site (incest, corruption, harem, school and hotel settings), having characters similar to popular games like Milfy City and Waifu Academy, and similar plug-in-the-backstory.

That sentence alone shows very clearly what their intention is, for me that's a huge red flag already.

 

[lemonfreak]

That sentence alone shows very clearly what their intention is, for me that's a huge red flag already.

Seconded, anyone who so blatently and cynically sets out to ape whatever is bringing the big bucks on Patreon is to be avoided

 

[Losersriot]

When I choose a game for myself, I don't care about the developer's motive. The main thing is that the game is good. If the game is shit, what do I care that the author did it on inspiration? If the game is a masterpiece, then does it matter that the author wanted to make money? The developer's motive has nothing to do with the quality of the final product.

 

[riverrungames]

Thank you everyone for your wonderful contributions to the thread. I am reading all your replies and find the perspectives to be well-informed and interesting, even if I may not agree with your opinions completely. For example, I don't think this was a case of me not doing my due diligence, I have been to job interviews throughout my life and I am fully aware I am my best advocate, so I have spoken for my rights as a writer, and I have spoken up for others when I was in a capacity to do so. I also don't think this was a case of "bad luck", this was a planned effort to deceive and intimidate other creators, strongarming them to do their work for them. I agree with the post that reputation counts for a lot, and I would rather quit than to be perceived as a bad dev, or to rip people off for money, which is a despicable act and would never think of doing. In fact, if these devs that scammed me ever come out of the woodwork, or their works ever get released, I will be sure to name and shame them in this thread and others where they advertise themselves.

When I choose a game for myself, I don't care about the developer's motive. The main thing is that the game is good. If the game is shit, what do I care that the author did it on inspiration? If the game is a masterpiece, then does it matter that the author wanted to make money? The developer's motive has nothing to do with the quality of the final product.

That was my initial thought, the developer acted as sort of a glorified studio head for example in an executive role. So if he sees the game as one way, and I want the game to be another, a push-and-pull relationship between me and the dev is inevitably going to take place. After all, that is what he hired me on to do, to make meaningful contributions. Even though it's their project ultimately, I will tug in one direction and try to get what I want (story, character, voice, meaningful choices, a sustained realistic style) and they will tug on the other direction, wanting to make the most return on their investment.

However it all got to the point where it became impossible because the developer would override any writing contributions (or programming decisions, or any other aspect down to the choices in music, sound, animations, etc. the writer does have to assume multiple jobs in a game dev setting) and bull rush his own interpretation of what the project is about, and abandon the collaborationist spirit of free inquiry and suggestion taking, instead opting to use creators as grist for the mill.

And that was the straw that made me much more strict on money related works, now I demand at least half of full payment if they want something done, so if they back out, I still have some to spare. And as a proof that they can be trusted once the work's done, if they don't back out.

So yes, selfish creators will exist, who try to manipulate the audience to think they are innocent, but so are selfish commissioners, who only seek their own needs fulfilled while skimming "do it for free" part. You should be wary of both, just in case.

Sorry to hear what happened to you. I hear stories about this quite often, and it's difficult because in transactions such as these, people have to assume a level of goodwill between both parties for the exchange of services to happen, and usually the artist will do the work, and the commissioner will always resort to bargain, as he's not in the position of losing anything.

Also, this is not a scam and it seems to be par for the course, a traditional practice when it comes to seeking a writer position: people who ask to write a scene for the work for the purposes of the interview, and reject the writer without compensation.

I have been in many situations where I was told I was close to getting a position on the team but didn't make the final cut. At the end of the day, all I have is a promising spec script (not for me, for them) and not much else to show for it. Pisses me off, if you don't mind my saying so. Not a scam, just a bad practice, and leaves the writer without any recourse, as most other instances of using the writer as free labor.

 

[woody554]

When I choose a game for myself, I don't care about the developer's motive. The main thing is that the game is good. If the game is shit, what do I care that the author did it on inspiration? If the game is a masterpiece, then does it matter that the author wanted to make money? The developer's motive has nothing to do with the quality of the final product.

the developer's motive has everything to do with the outcome, and you'll never ever get a good game from people who aren't motivated by making a good game. you'll get shit, more shit, and then the game is abandoned.

 

[Tor7]

What is normal compensation? Do you take a flat fee? Hourly pay? Pay per scene? Or is it a portion of income generated during the project? I'm currently brainstorming a project (IRL I collect projects and rarely get them finished... this is my newest shiny object) and just wondering how it works should I want to get help.

 

[RomanHume]

I avoid it by not doing business with other creators. I tried hiring artists at one point but I was never satisfied with the end result because it wasn't the way "I would do it."

So in the end, if there was something my game needed, I learned to do it. Art, Coding, you name it. Only way to avoid conflict and retain control is to do it yourself.

Unless you have a shit ton of money and can hire professionals....which I don't think any of us can afford.

 

[Cokane0]

Use invoices in the future.

 

[NG Creative]

riverrungames I was about to message that particular post in the service section that they needed writer and remembered this post so didn't contacted them.

 

[TheHighSpire]

While I have no experience in this type of project, it is not an unknown phenomenon in project management. While the terms eludes me in English, it is basically "project growth / slipping". Essentially the scope of the project changes to something that you didn't agree to or works against your values. There are very concrete actions to take in such instances.

Most importantly, what you need to do at first when working with projects, as you probably know, is to establish the scope.

1. How much are you expected to write?
2. How long is the project/section/chapter supposed to take?
3. When and how much will you be paid?
4. How to deal with unwanted project growth (adding more characters, settings etc)

Obviously, not all devs will have answers to these questions. However, I suppose most skilled devs will have an idea of their chapters, how it will start and end, and thus a vague idea of characters and settings. Talking to devs about these things before you start on the project will give you an idea of whether the dev is worth working with or not.

However, as other people have already said; you were probably just unlucky.

 

[riverrungames]

What is normal compensation? Do you take a flat fee? Hourly pay? Pay per scene? Or is it a portion of income generated during the project?

A normal compensation for me as a writer is the standard rate (15 cents per word, up to 30 cents if the script is specialized), and an equal share/percentage of the income (including residuals). Some writers do flat fees and hourly sums. I'm not a fan of either payment model because the rates are not proportional to the work the writer is doing. The writer is getting paid the same to do 10,000 words over 20,000 words, and so no incentive to writing more words other than what is specifically agreed upon, because the writer is supposed to overwrite and edit later, because if they line-edit extensively then it means there's less time available to write. If the job is poring over dense prose with no dialogue, maybe I'd take a higher lump fee, this is negotiable but there has to be a minimum standard which the person, be it a creator or a commissioner, requesting those services must meet.

I avoid it by not doing business with other creators. I tried hiring artists at one point but I was never satisfied with the end result because it wasn't the way "I would do it." So in the end, if there was something my game needed, I learned to do it. Art, Coding, you name it. Only way to avoid conflict and retain control is to do it yourself. Unless you have a shit ton of money and can hire professionals....which I don't think any of us can afford.

This seems to be a popular sentiment in the thread, the auteurist "do everything by yourself" approach. I would tend to agree as a writer, I want complete and total control of what I write, but the whole purpose of getting into game development for me is working with others and the collaboration aspect of it. I don't want to be on the forums for self-promotion purposes, only to advertise my game and nothing else. I want to take in different ideas and discuss them, and work with people who share my ideas and interests in terms of game development. Giving up on other creators because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush doesn't seem tenable or sustainable in the long run, this will inevitably lead to a massive burnout, which is the reason why most solo devs abandon their project, or take extended breaks. It's better for one's mental and physical health to have people to rely on to share the burden than to take on the burden all by yourself.

Another example why I prefer working on a team is because the jack of all trades approach is limiting, not only in terms of time, money spent on assets, and energy, but creativity. It doesn't take a genius to code for Ren'py, if one goes through the Ren'py documentation and takes the time to learn the language, sure, anyone could do it. However, my competency in writing something in Python would never be as refined and assured with someone who has been thinking about programming, would never upload their own code and contribute to correcting other people's code. The elite programmer have a fuller understanding of the details and subtleties of developing for the platform and the comparison between someone of that skill and caliber and me isn't even worth discussing about.

Same with the artist, the musician, the voice actor, the designer. I would always hire this person to work on the project with me, and would be willing to pay an arm and a leg for these services, because I am paying for their expertise and knowledge. My code-monkey sensibilities would never think to imagine, this game could be a better game if done in Unity or Unreal, as one person suggested to me. Doing a game in a different engine would vastly alter what is achievable in a game, the interactivity of it, and what stories can be told.

All I want as a baseline is for creators to be able to trust other creators in terms of the work they produce, and compromise in a fair and productive manner when it comes to the money.

 

[RomanHume]

I don't want to be on the forums for self-promotion purposes, only to advertise my game and nothing else.

Not sure where that is coming from? I certainly am not suggesting that.

I want to take in different ideas and discuss them, and work with people who share my ideas and interests in terms of game development.

I do this regularly, but with my players and patrons. My story has grown and evolved in all manner of unanticipated ways based on discussions with players. I routinely find I learn more from players who have experienced a wide diversity of games and bring all kinds of fresh ideas to to the table than I do from other developers who often have tunnel vision about how their game, story, or development should unfold.

Giving up on other creators because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush doesn't seem tenable or sustainable in the long run, this will inevitably lead to a massive burnout, which is the reason why most solo devs abandon their project, or take extended breaks. It's better for one's mental and physical health to have people to rely on to share the burden than to take on the burden all by yourself.

This I'll openly disagree with. I find it more stressful sitting around waiting on someone else to get their part done so we can move forward. I worked with a team in the beginning and I found not having a team to be more beneficial in the long run. I went out of my way to learn Python from the ground up for this project and now 2/3rds of my production cycle is automated. All I do is write story and make pictures. The coding is all automated at this point save for some short hand I slip into the draft of the script.

To avoid burn out I've been retooling my process to get my production cycle down to two chapters a month with a 2 hour daily commitment. I'm testing the process now and if all goes well, making this game will be a stress free as it can be.

All I want as a baseline is for creators to be able to trust other creators in terms of the work they produce, and compromise in a fair and productive manner when it comes to the money.

Well....many of your developers started out as game pirates...so I guess good luck and all that.