As a creator, how do you avoid being scammed by other creators?

[riverrungames]

Not sure where that is coming from? I certainly am not suggesting that.

I do this regularly, but with my players and patrons. My story has grown and evolved in all manner of unanticipated ways based on discussions with players. I routinely find I learn more from players who have experienced a wide diversity of games and bring all kinds of fresh ideas to to the table than I do from other developers who often have tunnel vision about how their game, story, or development should unfold.

I didn't say you were suggesting it, however many people do use the platform to self-advertise and not communicate with their audience, which is detrimental and foolish in terms of the money, but is an admirable position in its resilience to audience reception/participation. To be more precise, I'd prefer to learn and share from members of my team rather than listen to players and people on Patreon. This idea may seem old hat but the audience should not play a part in changing the direction of the game at all. That isn't to say their ideas can't serve as catalysts for other ideas and taking the game to new places and deviating from the grand plan, however that is more of a question of perception and epistemology (where do our ideas and thoughts come from) than what I find objectionable: bucking to new, fashionable trends, the will of the mob. (Perhaps this is a reactionary idea, but it's what I believe to the superior approach on the matter of aesthetics). A writer will always be steered by ideas, and the majority of his ideas should not come from the audience.

When I talked about being on the forums to discuss different ideas, I don't want to discuss my own works, defend, elaborate, or add context to what I wrote. To me, explaining away my own works in a forum strikes me as stupid since the writing in the game should be self-contained and hermetic, enclosed in its own logic. The player should never have to fish around the forums for an explanation for what the writer did, the end results should speak for itself. I can't change anyone's mind as a writer, and I don't hope to, so explaining what I was intending to do is a useless effort. If people are unhappy with a certain aspect of the game for example, then either it's my fault for miscommunication or their fault for misunderstanding, and in either case, the following correction would not be contingent purely on the feedback given.

So when I said what I said, I wasn't suggesting you said it, I'm saying I would avoid the forums rather than self-advertise, or to discuss my work personally or take anyone's suggestions, that's not the point of the forums for me.

This I'll openly disagree with. I find it more stressful sitting around waiting on someone else to get their part done so we can move forward. I worked with a team in the beginning and I found not having a team to be more beneficial in the long run. I went out of my way to learn Python from the ground up for this project and now 2/3rds of my production cycle is automated. All I do is write story and make pictures. The coding is all automated at this point save for some short hand I slip into the draft of the script.

To avoid burn out I've been retooling my process to get my production cycle down to two chapters a month with a 2 hour daily commitment. I'm testing the process now and if all goes well, making this game will be a stress free as it can be.

Yes, the stopgap in the workflow presents its own set of challenges, on that point we agree. I'm saying there is an obvious cost-benefit here to working with people who you can rely on, not only because the creator pays them, but there's a passion, trust, an overall feeling that this project is an affair of the heart. Some players feel very passionately about the game, so why shouldn't the developers share the same passion, as in the people working on the project should be incentivized to work, and one of these incentives is how they feel about the work itself. You write about how it's more beneficial in the long-run to work on one's own, I completely disagree. It's the opposite case, it's beneficial in the short-term because you are reliant on yourself to do everything, and if you're not available, you have no one else to fall back to for help, whereas if you find a team, it might be slow in the beginning, but once you hit a productive groove, then the working relationship will improve over time.

Writers should definitely learn how to program in python if that's what they're doing, but I would make for a much better writer than a writer/programmer, that's for sure. The quality of the game would probably improve as a result of bringing someone more experienced in who's more than someone like me who is merely competent.

 

[RomanHume]

You write about how it's more beneficial in the long-run to work on one's own, I completely disagree.

I'm just going to skip all the ruminating and waxing intellectual about something as subjective as the development of art and porn games and just address this single point.

I'm not saying it's more beneficial for EVERYONE to work on their own. I'm saying it's more beneficial for ME, to work on my own. The forum topic asked how I deal with other developers and I shared MY preferences and methods. It starts and stops there.

We all do what works for us. Post asked, I answered. Not trying to sell my perspective to anyone who isn't shopping.

I'm simply doing what works best for me, which is working alone.
Cheers mate.

 

[xxx3me]

The developers (the head honchos) in this instance were only concerned with earning money, making a return, getting the most clicks and following on Patreon and Subscribestar. Their profit motive started off innocently at first. First, these devs focused on all the genres that were successful on this site (incest, corruption, harem, school and hotel settings), having characters similar to popular games like Milfy City and Waifu Academy, and similar plug-in-the-backstory. Plenty of games do this, and while cynical, these devs wanted to ensure they made their money back.

Not exactly the answer you're looking for, but amazes me how some games make a salad of chocolate with lettuce and beef, get it? There is so many things shoved there, that I feel they are doing that just to reach as much as public as they can and in the end, seems pretty shitty – how would a single developer really enjoy working in so many different fetishes and tastes? Or maybe I'm boring and flat in my tastes

By the way, this is something I'm trying hard not to do in my game, sticking to things I at least enjoy to write about. Probably it will be a commercial failure... Bummer, but that's life.

 

[riverrungames]

Bumping thread because I had some adventures in the freelancing trade since my opening post, negative experiences I could not see coming despite some suggestions to the contrary.

There was a person who wanted to work as a two-person team on a project. I was brought on board to handle the writing, the other person the art. Before starting on a speculative draft, I asked for all the details and information the person wants in the script. The person gave me the premise, and gave me free reign, and told me to write what I wanted to write. Feedback was good, and I started on a second draft. Problems arose here, when the other person wanted me to basically re-do the entirety of the story and structure. The person wanted me to basically expand the prologue to the point where it meant pushing back the beginning of the first act. I said I would do so, but I wanted an explanation. For me, the prologue is the set-up and introduction, not a place where one should linger too often. The other person thought the prologue should comprise the length of a whole scene. Some back in forth took place about what each of us want out of the story, and at the end, the person declared "I prefer to work alone" because "I have ideas in my mind that clash with yours" then deleted me so I can't contact them.

Why bother recruiting writers when the recruiter has no interest in working collaboratively? I don't think this is a case of differing ideas, or bad luck, as I was willing to change the writing to meet their specifications. The problem arose when I pushed back and justified my writing choices as legitimate, and in the end the person told me "I just don't enjoy working with you." A ranting post to say to the people looking for writers, give them as much information as possible so they can start a draft, and expect the writer to contribute their own ideas.

 

[Fatalmasterpiece]

This can happen in any endeavor while working with others, especially business. Unfortunately some believe the entire purpose of doing anything is to get more money. Always more.
This makes quality suffer, because it is the first casualty to gaining profits. This is how you get horrible game devs like Blizzard or EA.
In my opinion, a balance is needed to make a business sustainable and that the focus should be on quality. A successful business isn't the most profitable one. It is one that makes a quality product,

 

[TacoHoleStory]

A normal compensation for me as a writer is the standard rate (15 cents per word, up to 30 cents if the script is specialized), and an equal share/percentage of the income (including residuals).

This is a tangent to the main thread, but I have to mention it. You expect over half of the money made from a game for doing less than half of the work? Assuming your pfp is a real one, I doubt you're old enough to have the credibility or backlog to justify your price. If I was paying someone this amount I would expect them to at least have had one semi-successful adult game.

Anyone willing to pay that price (without seeing prior adult writing experience) is either going to be delusional about the future success of their game, or massively focused on money, be a little naive and see you as a shortcut to get there.

Sorry if this is overly critical but hopefully it helps you reconsider some things. Once is bad luck, twice (in a row) may be a pattern. There are lots of creators out there that are focused on making good gaming experiences.

 

[riverrungames]

This is a tangent to the main thread, but I have to mention it. You expect over half of the money made from a game for doing less than half of the work? Assuming your pfp is a real one, I doubt you're old enough to have the credibility or backlog to justify your price. If I was paying someone this amount I would expect them to at least have had one semi-successful adult game.

Anyone willing to pay that price (without seeing prior adult writing experience) is either going to be delusional about the future success of their game, or massively focused on money, be a little naive and see you as a shortcut to get there.

Sorry if this is overly critical but hopefully it helps you reconsider some things. Once is bad luck, twice (in a row) may be a pattern. There are lots of creators out there that are focused on making good gaming experiences.

What do you mean by "less than half of the work"? The work is the work, if a person wants to make a game, and they are recruiting people to write the script, then I expect to be paid as everyone else on the team. Does a programmer do less than half of the work compared to an artist? And what does my age and experience have to do with anything if I already have the job? I have already worked out the model in which the person is paying me before the writing starts. All you're doing is creating a series of arbitrary distinctions based on "work" which you don't define. Some people pay per word, some people take a flat fee up front, some people prefer to give a share of the overall profits made in the back end.

I don't charge per word, but if I did, I would prefer the payment to be at the standard rate. I don't set the standard rate, it's why it's called a "standard rate". In the same post, I wrote "this [meaning the fee] is negotiable but there has to be a minimum standard which the person, be it a creator or a commissioner, requesting those services must meet." Apparently this is an absurd request to you, people getting paid fairly for their work.

And for the record, I haven't been paid a dime for my work done over the past few months. That wasn't the main issue of what I had with creators. The problem is the profit motive looming over all other considerations, which in my case pertain to the text, regarding story arcs, plot, characters, the form, and so on. Maybe you should read the opening post instead of constructing straw men arguments and arguing points I've never made, based on a series of assumptions that haven't even been implied. Stay out of the thread if all you're going to do is attack people from your high horse, and contribute nothing but cheap ad hominem attacks.

 

[TacoHoleStory]

What do you mean by "less than half of the work"? The work is the work, if a person wants to make a game, and they are recruiting people to write the script, then I expect to be paid as everyone else on the team. Does a programmer do less than half of the work compared to an artist? And what does my age and experience have to do with anything if I already have the job? I have already worked out the model in which the person is paying me before the writing starts. All you're doing is creating a series of arbitrary distinctions based on "work" which you don't define. Some people pay per word, some people take a flat fee up front, some people prefer to give a share of the overall profits made in the back end.

I don't charge per word, but if I did, I would prefer the payment to be at the standard rate. I don't set the standard rate, it's why it's called a "standard rate". In the same post, I wrote "this [meaning the fee] is negotiable but there has to be a minimum standard which the person, be it a creator or a commissioner, requesting those services must meet." Apparently this is an absurd request to you, people getting paid fairly for their work.

And for the record, I haven't been paid a dime for my work done over the past few months. That wasn't the main issue of what I had with creators. The problem is the profit motive looming over all other considerations, which in my case pertain to the text, regarding story arcs, plot, characters, the form, and so on. Maybe you should read the opening post instead of constructing straw men arguments and arguing points I've never made, based on a series of assumptions that haven't even been implied. Stay out of the thread if all you're going to do is attack people from your high horse, and contribute nothing but cheap ad hominem attacks.

Yikes, I misread the quote I was replying to as 50% share overall plus an upfront fee, apologies. It wasn't an attack, just a consideration on your expected pay. I hope things go well for you from here on.

 

[Diconica]

It's a business treat it that way. Contract in writing.
This means you also need real identities to enforce it.

In the contract spell out all the terms of the contract.
What the job is. The amount of time. Who is responsible for what.
The price. What happens if there are changes. Such as change in time given, additional cost...
Discuss payment method.
What happens if either party is late on their part.
If you are late delivering work.
If they are late delivering details you need to proceed.
If they are late paying you.

Discuss stuff like if they come up with extra work or want you to do a special project or if they put a rush on stuff.
Basically over time or extra work fees. This could be something like raising your base fee to 1.5 or 2 times or more of the normal rate depending on how fast the rush is and what else you have going on.
Example: base fee $200
A 2 week job gets cut to a 1 week. Base price goes to $400
That said I also am upfront with people and let them know when deadlines are to short.
These types of price increases are needed to deter people from thinking this is a normal thing and they can cut times like this all the time.
If it got cut to a weekend or few days. base price to $600.
If it happens on a holiday or vacation time. IF I AGREE to it you can expect that base price to hit $1000 or even more depending on what is going on.

Maybe, they want you to take up part of the work that isn't normally your work but related.
Since you mentioned writing. Often writers are told what type of scene and so on they want written. But they aren't really involved in the plot development or character development directly or research for those.
So you should also mention in the contract additional fees for taking on duties that are not specified in the original contract.

Then also discuss credits and anonymity and so on in it.
Breach of contract clause is a must for both parties.

The short answer is don't work with people not wanting to treat the business in a professional manor.
It wouldn't hurt to invest a bit of money in having an attorney draw up a basic contract for you.
You can always redact and edit it to fit the needs of a specific job.

 

[riverrungames]

It's a business treat it that way. Contract in writing.
This means you also need real identities to enforce it.
In the contract spell out all the terms of the contract.
What the job is. The amount of time. Who is responsible for what.
The price. What happens if there are changes. Such as change in time given, additional cost...
Discuss payment method.
What happens if either party is late on their part.
If you are late delivering work.
If they are late delivering details you need to proceed.
If they are late paying you.

Thanks for the informative suggestion. I'm afraid your post is a bit of a Catch-22 for me. Yes, I can hire an attorney and form a limited liability company, but without any projects on hand, the investment represents a sunken cost for me, as I have nothing to show for the money spent. The costs will only add up over time, as well. I am already writing on a loss, as I'm not making money writing, and to add on more "investments" will only serve to exasperate my problems, not alleviate them.

One of the main reasons I am taking on these projects for others is to build up my portfolio for other better-paying projects, and to use the experience and money to develop my own game. However, the projects I have committed myself to aren't coming into fruition due to scummy developers and creators, and so I'm essentially forced to write on spec.

Being a freelance writer means I am not in a position to only work with people with ones I want to work with. I have to take on jobs that I don't want to do if I can't find the ones I'm looking for. I can't afford to be as picky as you're suggesting. In the beginning, I have asked to sign contracts for people I worked with, but I learned many of them do not want to give out their personal information and be bound to contractual obligations. This is less about them being unprofessional as them being in the same situation as I, they would also have to invest in non-asset related costs. If I do find professional developers willing to go through the trouble of drawing up a standard contract and signing it, which I have managed to do, they are overwhelmingly high-end developers with projects earning tens of thousands of dollars a month. These opportunities do not come by often, and I haven't been so lucky to secure these position. The common rejoinder is "second place", meaning I almost had it, but the developers decided on someone else at the end of it, which means I am left with nothing but the actual script.

Your post may apply to other people, but not to me or any other writer I've come across. The creators have more or less already agreed to the monetary stipulations. The problem in my case isn't with the enforcement of contracts, which I do think are important because of legal ramifications and pressure, but with the general attitude of lead creators not letting other creators (writers, programmers, musicians, and so on) do their job.

 

[Diconica]

Thanks for the informative suggestion. I'm afraid your post is a bit of a Catch-22 for me. Yes, I can hire an attorney and form a limited liability company, but without any projects on hand, the investment represents a sunken cost for me, as I have nothing to show for the money spent. The costs will only add up over time, as well. I am already writing on a loss, as I'm not making money writing, and to add on more "investments" will only serve to exasperate my problems, not alleviate them.

One of the main reasons I am taking on these projects for others is to build up my portfolio for other better-paying projects, and to use the experience and money to develop my own game. However, the projects I have committed myself to aren't coming into fruition due to scummy developers and creators, and so I'm essentially forced to write on spec.

Being a freelance writer means I am not in a position to only work with people with ones I want to work with. I have to take on jobs that I don't want to do if I can't find the ones I'm looking for. I can't afford to be as picky as you're suggesting. In the beginning, I have asked to sign contracts for people I worked with, but I learned many of them do not want to give out their personal information and be bound to contractual obligations. This is less about them being unprofessional as them being in the same situation as I, they would also have to invest in non-asset related costs. If I do find professional developers willing to go through the trouble of drawing up a standard contract and signing it, which I have managed to do, they are overwhelmingly high-end developers with projects earning tens of thousands of dollars a month. These opportunities do not come by often, and I haven't been so lucky to secure these position. The common rejoinder is "second place", meaning I almost had it, but the developers decided on someone else at the end of it, which means I am left with nothing but the actual script.

Your post may apply to other people, but not to me or any other writer I've come across. The creators have more or less already agreed to the monetary stipulations. The problem in my case isn't with the enforcement of contracts, which I do think are important because of legal ramifications and pressure, but with the general attitude of lead creators not letting other creators (writers, programmers, musicians, and so on) do their job.

There isn't really a need to go to the point of forming an LLC.
Try a DBA, "doing business as". This you can do yourself without a lawyer. You basically have to file a form with the local government you will be using an assumed name for business or DBA form. In my case it was the county clerks office.
Taxes are handled under your own social in the US. It cost around $15.

Forming a corporation or LLC is only really needed when you have risk of liability. In short if you do something wrong you want people suing the company for damages not you personally and taking your home. Doing something like writing doesn't hold much of a risk of liability unless you slander people.

If you live in the US you have another great resource that can offer advice, classes and more.

You must be registered to see the links

They also have loans and grants not sure they can be applied to this but doesn't hurt to ask.

The cost of having an attorney draw up a contract or such should be fairly minimal.
You probably can do it with something like legalzoom

You must be registered to see the links

Lastly, you can always look at other contracts you can find online and take the various sections from them.
Then make the least amount of modifications you need to fix it so that the contract meets your needs. This should be a last resort. There should be enough resources between the SBA and online resources that you can find a better option.

I said what I said in the previous post to you with the assumption this was the type of spot you were in.
The point of the contract is to prevent repeat issues like this. It gives you a way to enforce stuff and ensure you get paid once hired. Otherwise you become fairly powerless to the situation and they can withhold money till you pay.
That said you can use emails to show intent and promise of payment in court however you would have to know the individuals actual identity and tie the email to them.

You can make a form based contract that you can use over and over again like photographers use. That way you only need to pay one time for the attorney to draw it up.

 

[Fatalmasterpiece]

Thanks for the informative suggestion. I'm afraid your post is a bit of a Catch-22 for me. Yes, I can hire an attorney and form a limited liability company, but without any projects on hand, the investment represents a sunken cost for me, as I have nothing to show for the money spent. The costs will only add up over time, as well. I am already writing on a loss, as I'm not making money writing, and to add on more "investments" will only serve to exasperate my problems, not alleviate them.

One of the main reasons I am taking on these projects for others is to build up my portfolio for other better-paying projects, and to use the experience and money to develop my own game. However, the projects I have committed myself to aren't coming into fruition due to scummy developers and creators, and so I'm essentially forced to write on spec.

Being a freelance writer means I am not in a position to only work with people with ones I want to work with. I have to take on jobs that I don't want to do if I can't find the ones I'm looking for. I can't afford to be as picky as you're suggesting. In the beginning, I have asked to sign contracts for people I worked with, but I learned many of them do not want to give out their personal information and be bound to contractual obligations. This is less about them being unprofessional as them being in the same situation as I, they would also have to invest in non-asset related costs. If I do find professional developers willing to go through the trouble of drawing up a standard contract and signing it, which I have managed to do, they are overwhelmingly high-end developers with projects earning tens of thousands of dollars a month. These opportunities do not come by often, and I haven't been so lucky to secure these position. The common rejoinder is "second place", meaning I almost had it, but the developers decided on someone else at the end of it, which means I am left with nothing but the actual script.

Your post may apply to other people, but not to me or any other writer I've come across. The creators have more or less already agreed to the monetary stipulations. The problem in my case isn't with the enforcement of contracts, which I do think are important because of legal ramifications and pressure, but with the general attitude of lead creators not letting other creators (writers, programmers, musicians, and so on) do their job.

I get what you're saying, unfortunately it is true of many fields. I'm currently working as a freelance creative professional, doing random jobs to build a portfolio and make money. Fortunately I have never had an issue come up where my client didn't pay me.

What it sounds like is that you are getting your feet too deep into this. Personally there are only two ways I handle projects. Either I am a hired gun with a limited scope of work or it is my show and I run things. You're caught somewhere in the middle which isn't a good place to be. Directors will take advantage of you like that! Since you said you aren't ready yet to run your own show, you should just stick to the hired gun gig. That means you have to stop caring so much about stuff outside your control. You do your job, you get paid, you're done.

For me, I get paid a set amount of money to complete my portion of a project in a given amount of time. Often, these projects never even get published, but that isn't my problem! I always complete my work in the time frame and get paid. That's all you can do. You can't worry about what stupid shit the rest of the team does. I have seriously seen work I was hired for get published 1 year+ after I finished my portion... often the final product sucks due to poor final direction decisions and I pretend I didn't work on it. It sucks but that is just the way it is. At least you got paid. Don't sweat it until you are working on your own projects! Then you call the shots and can worry about these things. Until then, make your bread, bide your time and learn as much as you can.